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The Character

Conan the Cimmerian

Robert E. Howard never referred to Conan as "the Barbarian." The official title should be "Conan the Cimmerian." The movie title has clouded this fact. Since this is an article about the literary character, shouldn't it reflect the author's work? --Fallshirmjager 00:25, 11 January 2006

I fear that while Howard indeed never called him "Conan the Barbarian", he described him as such (no, I can't quote any specific instances, and currently have too much stuff on my reading list to go through Conan again), and that descriptor clung to him, even before the movie... probably at least from the Marvel comics days, or the first carter and de camp pastiches published in the 60s. So, while it can't be proved that the appellation "Conan the Barbarian" would get the REH stamp of approval, it can't be denied that the name is how most people designate REH's most famous creation (yes, even your purist servant does so on occasion).

To boot, if we start going on a purist streak, we might transport all discussion of the canon, Howard material to a "Conan of Cimmeria" page, and all the rest to "Conan derivative products and related dreck" page. When I see what some authors have done with Howard's creations and to his univeres and continuity, I want to play Vlad III of Wallachia and have them play the boyars, Saxons and Turks. --Svartalf 16:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

"I have no royal blood," ground Conan. "I am a barbarian and the son of a blacksmith." - http://en.wikisource.org/The_Hour_of_the_Dragon_-_Chapter_3

"here was the barbarian - the natural killer" -http://en.wikisource.org/The_Phoenix_on_the_Sword

"He was a barbarian.."

“I am Conan, a Cimmerian,” answered the barbarian briefly. - http://en.wikisource.org/Red_Nails

-- Beardo 22:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Tall Barbarian

I am interested in the source of the estimate of Conan's height as 6'6". In the Howard stories I believe there is only one objective description of Conan's height ands weight. He is said to have been 6'0" and 180 lbs at the time of the raid on Venarium. He was only 15 years old at the time so it is reasonable to assume he grew taller with are but I have never seen this quantified. The source for this statement should be cited.

I think the weight given for Conan at being 200lbs is probably too low. Surely somebody has a better source for this.

Conan is a Cimmerian, a barbarian of the far north. In ancient times, Cimmerians didn't live as far in the north, as Germans did. See this map http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/europa1000bcsm.gif Bogdan | Talk 11:07, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's history, this is fiction. Howard's Cimmerians lived in the far north. The only tribes more northern were the Aesir and Vanir.

We only have one of Howard's letters, in which he remarks in passing that at age 15, Conan stood six feet and weighed 180 pounds.

How about we make a compromise. It is inconsequential what actual size Conan was. How about we settle on describing him as being large, and the fact he is muscular and well built. It seems like there will be no consensus on actual heighth, since REH never actually specified it. --L.A.F.

I don't believe that Howard ever stated what his height and weight were, as an adult, in any of these stories. In fact, I don't think that it's really even been brought up in the near countless novel adaptations of the character that have been done for decades. As far as I know, the only possible mention of Conan's height and weight might be when he was a licensed property of Marvel Comics. However, whether or not it might be accepted as canon by the most hardcore fans of the character is all up in the air. Marvel Comics used the character and the Hyborian Era itself as an important time in the history of Earth, at least in their version of Earth. Now, don't hold me to this but I believe that Conan was listed at about 6'6" and in the 275-300 pound range. Since Conan is no longer a licensed property of Marvel Comics, there's debate as to whether or not anything about the character is accepted as canon as far as the comics went. To look at the drawings of the character, from Howard's own illustrations, to the comics, to the various novels he's obviously a man of tremendous muscular size and development. However, as is common with many comic book or fantasy characters, Conan could merely have been drawn with an artistic license to exaggerate his proportions. For example, Superman is listed at about 6'3" and 225 pounds or so but his proportions are drawn to make him appear to me considerably larger. The same could simply have been done with Conan all this time. In Howard's stories, he might have been not much larger than he was as an adult than at age 15. Then again, he size might have been more along the lines of the comic book appearances. It's all open to speculation and interpretation. Maybe 15,000 years or so ago, 6'0" and 200 pounds could be considered gigantic, since Conan's great physical stature is mentioned in every story or novel I've read about him. But personally, I feel the character is between 6'3"-6'6" and 250-275 pounds. I just have trouble overlooking the bodybuilder-ish build that he's always drawn at having. Odin's Beard

• Howard gives no estimate of his weight. He does state, however, that he already topped 6 feet at the age of 15, when he participated in the Venarium sack... so giving him 4 or 6 inches extra growth may not be abusive. As to the weight... He ius described as being at once lithe and pantherish, yet enormously strong. I let specialists evaluate what kind of body build and muscle mass might let one achieve both at once. --Svartalf 21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

REH had another character named Cormac FitzGeoffrey, who was an Irish/Norman knight in the 12th century. Howard gave his stats as 6'2" and 215 pounds, and said that he was the spitting image of Conan.

Barbarian of the Far North

Conan comes from an imaginary age that Howard made up. His Cimmeria is often described as being in in the far north though the lands of the Vanir and Aesir (two imaginary cultural groups roughly to Germanic peoples) were even more northerly.

Historic Cimmerians

I would just like to add that the connection between the literary Cimmerians and the real is more than coincidental (although entirely fictional). Robert E. Howard offered a pseudohistory that ties in to several historical cultures, in his essay The Hyborian Age. --Kortoso 18:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, there's no connection between historical Cimmerians and Howard's. Historical Cimmerians were a Branch of the Scythian horse nomads living in modern Crimea. Howard's live in a cold temperate country of hills, not steppe, and are settled, not nomadic, also it is fairly clear they are regarded as ancestors to the Celts not to Indo Iranian people. It is likely that Howard found the name and inspiration in book 11 of Homer's Odyssey, where Cimmerians are described as living in a land of fog and darkness at the edge of the world.
--Svartalf 14:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Conan as a German

If described as such, being Celtic does not contradict it; the Celts originated in (or near) what is now Germany. Or at least they passed through the region. --KDF

But the language, culture, and physical type are quite distinct. Howard often described Gaels as dark haired, and with a swarthiness peculiar to the north, whereas Germanic people were invariably light haired and skinned. To boot, although both cultures are Indo European, and actually share many similarities, the racial doctrines prevalent before WWII would have emphazized the innate (we would say genetic) differences over surface physical and cultural similarities). --Svartalf 15:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Conan as Howard's Alter Ego

Somebody wrote this: Unlike the modern, stereotypical view of a brainless barbarian (mainly from his appearances in movies and comics), Howard originally created Conan as a thoughtful but melancholic figure who often battled with depression, much like Howard himself (the writer eventually committed suicide). However, Howard's Conan is unaffected by such feelings. Can anybody confirm that "thoughtful but melancholic figure who often battled with depression" character in Conan? (just a reference to the story and place would be fine). This characterisation strikes me as better describin Kull, than Conan, indeed, there's evidence showing that Howard created Conan because Kull did not sell, being too thoughtful and melancholy for the tastes of the public, which wanted an action hero. This bit might be better rewritten and transported to the Kull article. --Svartalf 01:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

From The Phoenix on the Sword, we have a conversation between Conan and Prespero: "Then I think you are like them (referring to the Aesir)," laughed Prospero. "You laugh greatly, drink deep and bellow good songs; though I never saw another Cimmerian who drank aught but water, or who ever laughed, or ever sang save to chant dismal dirges." I will try to dig up some quotes directly from REH. --Kortoso 20:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Fear of the Supernatural

Conan, throughout his earlier adventures, has a superstitious streak that was mentioned rather frequently by Howard. Is this significant enough it should be mentioned in his description? --Moncubus 16:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

Historical Influence?

Does anyone know if Howard was aware of Conan Meriadoc? He fit the idea of a dark haired bloody handed warrior barbarian quite well. Johnpf 05:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Howard was widely read in medieval history, but I doubt this particular king of Brittany had any direct influence on Conan. The template for such characters as him, Kull, Turlogh Dubh O'Brien, and others stems more with his vision of the Gaels than of Brythonic Celts... to boot Meriadec was more of a mercenary chief and statesman than the classical Howardian barbarian --Svartalf 15:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Nietzschean Influence?

- 1 - Young Conan's family is slaughtered by a gang of marauders who sell him into slavery and he is chained to a giant threshing wheel which he must push around and around for years. This practice, like the progressive-resistance training of a weightlifter, gradually transforms Conan into a muscled giant, enabling him to crush his enemies. In Nietzsche's terms, Conan was able to "self-overcome" the "all-too-human" weaknesses of the herd and become an Overman. That's an extract from the paragraph, it can be changed around the sentences to conform with wikipedia

- Source 2] The movie opens with a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche - "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." And that pretty much sums up the tale of Conan. This pretty much does cover the entire saga of Conan, it's very Nietzschean don't you think? I think we should include Nietzsche as an influence. These are just a few of the sources you can find on a search engine, anyone object to mentioning Nietzsche in the article? --Raddicks 19:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I do. There is no evidence that Robert E. Howard was aware or exposed to Nietzsche. Including it as a reference or influence implies that his ideas drove REH to write. While the two may appear to be of related philosophy, there are no implications of influece. One must keep in mind that the movies were not done by REH, and the movies cannot be used to prove anything about his views. --L.A.F.

Begging pardon, but Howard's gloomy outlook and cult of strength do lead one to believe he was aware of Nietzschean philosophy as it was understood in his lifetime. Is there definite evidence that he was ignorant of it? Nietzsche was after all one of the fashionable philosophers of the time, no matter how badly he was understood, and I'd be surprised that one as widely read as REH had not at least brushed with him. --Svartalf 15:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What about Frank Frazetta?

Someone should mention the references to Conan in Frank Frazetta's artwork.

The comments on the Kull film?

I notice that stuff I posted about the movie Kull the Conqueror has been deleted as "vandalism." If such a rant is indeed regarded that way here, I wish to apologize for it. Since my addition was in the same vein as what I put about the first Conan movie, and focused on the Conan/Howardian aspects of the movie, it was relevant and its presence justified, although I grant it was opinionated and hostile. I kindly ask whoever has authority to check the content again, and see if it's not a good idea to put it up again.

Original Weird Tales Cover or Illustration?

I think cover image or an illustration from the original pulp magazine would give some nice perspective about developement of the perseption of the character. Aren't they now old enough to be in public domain? I might have sought out some right now, but it is spleeping time over here now. --The Merciful 19:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Should Cerebus be mentioned in the parodies?

Cerebus the Aardvark Started clearly as a parody of Conan, and even in it's later evolution bears many resemblances to Conan's adventures: Always yearning for power, yet always foiled by outside forces. IMHO Cerebus should be mentioned as one of the parodies, or at least offsprings, of the Conan stories. --GNiko 23:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I concur. --Xastic 17:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Stories in the Public Domain?

Please consider denoting which Conan stories are in the public domain and request their text to be added to wikisource.

Complicated. If anyone wants to explore the idea, there's an article about the issue here: The copyright and ownership status of the works of Robert E. Howard. --Tearlach 00:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Technicalities

Separate Article for Conan the Barbarian film

I am considering moving most of the movie-related section to its own article, probably Conan the Barbarian (film). It would be the peer of Conan the Destroyer and resemble the German version. Any objections? --Meegs 18:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent idea. --Tearlach 13:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. --Kortoso 20:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea, this page needs a trim. Please move the movie quotes as well. --JG 04:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Very Long Article

This should be chopped down. Suggestions:

• Quotes moved to WikiQuote
• Conan the Barbarian (comics) page made

--Jamdav86 17:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The recommended maximum article size is 32KB and Conan is well over at the current 52KB. As well as the above mentioned I think the The Original Robert E. Howard Conan Stories and Book editions sections could be sumarised and moved to seperate article(s). -- Waza 00:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on all points so far. The quotes section is far to big, and comics need it's own page. Also, the "parody" section should be trimmed, or moved to it's own stub. JG 04:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

While there is lots of great information the setting of the stories and the publishing history, this entry really needs a section on Conan himself.

Quite a rambling mess.--Son of Somebody 21:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Created Conan (comics) and moved all the comics stuff there. There would be some need for nice writing in the article for someone more able... I left summaries on the main Conan page Reding 20:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Quote Correction

This quote may have been changed by a serial vandal, but it is " See them driven before you..." Listen to: ] --Key45 23:53, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wikiquote

I've copied over and reformatted the Quotations section to Wikiquote. See Conan the Barbarian. I've not a) removed the material from here nor b) placed a Wikiquote referral template message here as I wasn't sure if you would want to do either of those things. I find, however, that there is a second article in Wikiquote at Conan the Barbarian. I'm going to toss up a "merge" template on the pages, but you might want to step in there at some point as I'll not personally pursue the merger myself at this time. --Courtland 02:12, 2005 Mar 12 (UTC)

All those quotes really do not belong. I think they should come out. -- Beardo 18:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Infobox Picture

Why has the excellently done Conan picture been removed? It was quite fearsome and very fitting for the character.

The edit summary said, "Removing image with no copyright information. Such images that are older than seven days may be deleted at any time." Tom Harrison 01:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Category shenanigans

What's that stuff about "1950 introductions" and "1932 establishment" ? Those categories are quite unclear; it might be useful to explain them precisely, and just what happened to Conan in 1950 to put it in the earlier category?

Presumably a reference to the first Gnome Press book - but is republishing magazine stories in a book sufficient to warrant that ? -- Beardo 15:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Other

Pastiche

The description of later Conan works as pastiches seems to be trying to denigrate the later works. Surely a more NPOV term should be used ? -- Beardo 23:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, "pastiche" is the official term used by Conan fans when describing the later works and, oddly, by the writers of those novels themselves. Karl Edward Wagner (author of Conan and the Road of Kings) and countless other renowned writers self-labeled their Conan forays as "pastiches." As such, the term is generally accepted and not deemed offensive in this context. -- Flask 06:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Though that doesn't necessarily make it NPOV. Any idea when that started ? Did De Camp or Carter ever refer to pastiches ? I get the impression that Conan fandom wants to emphasise Howard's work as pure and later additions as much less valid. That seems to ignore the fact that even Howard was not averse to rewriting stories to change the main character, in order to make the sale. -- Beardo 18:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

My reply was to your first sentence and not your NPOV argument. In answer to your query, both DeCamp and Carter extensively used the term "pastiche" when referring to their Conan tales in the 1960s. The term was further popularized by the later Conan scribes in the 1970s and onwards. By the 1980s, the term "pastiche" was universally adopted by Conan writers, fantasy connoisseurs and literary circles when discussing the novels. As such, it's a widely-accepted categorical term used for over forty years when documenting the world of Conan. Personally, I have no sentiments about the term: Just another word in the lexicon of Conan literature. Do what you will. -- Flask 09:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I fear that "pastiche," unfortunately, is the proper term to use, as all those I've had the unluck to read (even those by Karl Wagner) have been far inferior to Howard's originals, and often introduced continuity incompatibilities in the general biography in the character, instead of filling voids. Some were only worse than the others. --Svartalf 15:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Popularity/publications

So Conan was out of print between 1936 and 1950. What prompted Gnome Press to publish ? How popular was Conan before the 1960s editions ? -- Beardo 12:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Page protection

Seems the anonymous user wouldn't quit? 惑乱 分からん 09:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just put it in here, anyway, seems to be mostly direct quotes from written material that leads to these reactions. This has gone on for days, now...

However much contemporary readers with leftist political sympathies may dislike it, 
a distinctly anti-modernist and Nietzschean Aryan racialism underlies much of 
Howard's ideology and literature:  

The ancient empires fall, the dark-skinned peoples fade and even the demons of antiquity 
gasp their last, but over all stands the Aryan barbarian, white-skinned, cold-eyed, dominant, 
the supreme fighting man of the earth. (Wings In The Night) 

In this context, Conan embodies Howard's anti-modernist concept of the embattled 
Nietzschean Aryan Overman, "supreme fighting man of the earth", 
overcomer of external and internal obstacles.

惑乱 分からん 22:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I see some of this is also in Robert E. Howard. "The ancient empires fall, the dark-skinned peoples fade..." So this is a direct quote from Wings In The Night. It might be helpful to include a page number in the citation, so that's completely clear. I think 'leftist political sympathies' have little to do with it; most contemporary readers would find this jarring. Otherwise, I think it's not too controversial to talk about "distinctly anti-modernist and Nietzschean Aryan racialism underlies much of Howard's ideology and literature." Howard was after all a man of his time. But something like "Conan embodies Howard's anti-modernist concept of the embattled Nietzschean Aryan Overman..." should probably be cited to a critical work by a recognized authority, if only because it's too close to original research. Tom Harrison 23:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

With slight adaptation, the same three paragraphs have been showing-up in Conan the Barbarian (film) too. They are based on a web-published essay "A Critical Appreciation of John Milius’s Conan the Barbarian", certainly not a recognized authority or one to which we should give in-line attribution. I agree with the text's removal from both articles as original research. ×Meegs 00:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The quote is actually not about Conan anyway, but about Solomon Kane. Tom Harrison 00:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that. So, it's a direct quote, but perhaps still not fitting? What about article protection? 惑乱 分からん 09:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Wings of the Night is not a Conan story, but a Solomon Kane story; hence, no relation to Conan the Cimmerian. If that Wings of the Night excerpt is intended to show the racist proclivities of Robert E. Howard, then perhaps that should be addressed in the Robert E. Howard article.--Flask 18:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

While the incriminated text may not come from a recognized authority, and actually source itself in non Conan material, I'm afraid the gist is correct. Since Conan is Howard's best known creation, and his protagonists were largely cast from a single mold, I believe it is correct to include that, or an edited form of it in the Conan article... although I do think also that the parts applying to milius fall under the "original research" prohibition. --Svartalf 23:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this correct?

"His skin is frequently characterised as bronzed from constant exposure to the sun and his garb is most commonly a loincloth, sandals and a sword of some description, depending on his fortunes and location."

I was under the impression that Conan wore armor a lot more than most people believe based on the comics and movies, which put him in a loincloth because they required a more distinctive look. (Granted, it's been over a decade since I last read any Conan prose.)

Comes from selective reading and remembering of the stories where he's in a loincloth more than those where he's fully dressed or armored... if you add in the fact that the carter-de camp pastiches probably added a lot to the body of loincloth stories, and the popularity of the Frazetta illustrations, and you have the loincloth legend firmly entrenched --Svartalf 08:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The greatest motion picture?

I removed this fragment as it is not supported by a single citation.

The film is often referred to as 'The Greatest Motion Picture in the History of Cinema'.

Quotes

Do the movie quotes really belong here? Wouldn't it be more logical to have them in the Conan the Barbarian movie article - especially since this article is rather long.

I have taken the movie quotes out - but think the rest of the quotes should go, too. -- Beardo 19:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have since inserted the moved Movie Quotes into the Conan the Barbarian (film) article. However, I believe the quotes from the original Conan stories by R.E. Howard should remain on this page. -- Flask

Surely quotes belong in Wikiquote. This random list of quotes does not belong here. -- Beardo 23:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Beardo; move things to Wikiquote. -- Epimetreus 23:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Deceased ?

Someone added Category:Deceased Fictional Characters and someone else removed it. I guess since Conan lived thousands of years ago, the presemption is that he is dead, despite his death not having been written. Or should we allow for immortality or time travel ? -- Beardo 04:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems some well meaning, or silly, people have been adding all manners of weird categories to this article. I certainly agree that "deceased characters" is dodgy as his death, while self evident given the time when he supposedly lived, was never depicted in any canon writing, if ever at all. Of course, I define canon to the writings of Howard alone, to the exception of all pastiches and collaboration, including the carter-de camp stuff, even the good things. --Svartalf 08:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI, this category has been deleted once before, and I have just relisted it at WP:CFD. Applying the label deceased to any fictional character is problematic. ×Meegs 12:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

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