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Stern gang and Irgun

A couple of comments about the link that was added. For one, the text in the article claims that the Stern Gang wanted to side with Nazi Germany, while the link itself claims it was the Irgun that wanted to side with the Nazis. These were two separate organizations. The Stern Gang split from the Irgun over the question of whether to continue the struggle against Britain during World War II. The Irgun said that Nazi Germany was the common enemy and that, therefore, they should cooperate with Britain, while the Stern Gang wanted to continue the struggle against Britain.

As for the story as to what really happened (as I understand it)--There was considerable animosity between the two groups during World War II, and the Irgun decided to take some drastic measures against the Stern Gang. What they did was forge a letter from the German diplomatic attache to Damascus (Syria was then under Vichy rule), inviting the Stern Gang to negotiate with them. The Stern Gang believed the letter was genuine and sent a representative to Damascus. I do not recall if he actually made it and the German ambassador refused to see him (after all, the invitation was a forgery), or whether he never made it there (I think this is the correct version, but I will have to check).

My sources for this are a personal discussion I had several years ago exactly about this topic with Yitzhak Berman, a former commander of the Irgun (and later Minister of Justice, who resigned his post in opposition to the Lebanon War). Berman ran a British spy operations in the Balkans during World War II (mainly in Bulgaria and Romania). In other words, cooperation was such between the Irgun and the British that the British agreed to use them as spies in Europe. Berman claimed to also have been involved in the incident with the Stern Gang. I had been asked by an Italian company to present a draft translation of Berman's autobiography for possible publication in English. I do not know if it was ever published, but I think it was not. In any event, I asked him about the Stern Gang-Nazi link, and that is what he told me, expanding on a brief outline that appeared in his book. Personally, I trust his version of the story more than a website with blatant historical errors. Danny

I didn't hear about the forged letter of invitation before, but Stern certainly wrote to the Germans claiming an idealogical affinity and offering to fight in the war on the side of Germany. His letter is in the German archives and can be found (in its German original) in D. Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Bar Ilan University, 1974) 315-317. Stern's representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut and met Otto von Hentig, a representative of the German Foreign Office (who recalled the meeting in his memoirs). J. Heller, The Stern Gang (Frank Cass, 1995) has a photo of von Hentig's covering letter added when he forwarded Stern's letter to the German embassy in Ankara. Stern tried to make contact with German officials again in Dec 1941. As far as I know, there was no substantial German response. Heller is a good source.

Concerning the "Irgun" versus "Stern Gang" question you raise concerning the letter, the confusion is resolved thus: when Stern broke away from the "Irgun Zvai Leumi" (National Military Organization) he named his new organization "Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael" (National Military Organization in Israel). This is the "Irgun" in his letter (probably he considered his faction to be the "real" Irgun). It was only after Stern's death that the name "Lohamei Herut Yisrael" (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) was adopted.

Proposal to Germans: It is correct that the web site has a strong bias and should not be trusted. However, the actual documents that appear there are genuine. The source given for the original German version (D. Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Bar-Ilan University, 1974) 315-317) is genuine and seems to match the photocopy I made many years ago at the BIU library. The author quoted it from the German archives. Eldad wrote a book about it (but I haven't read it). Shamir also mentions it in his autobiography. It's also described in Encyclopedia Judaica. So the basic facts of the matter are not disputed, but of course the question of why it was done and whether it was a moral action in the circumstances is going to remain a hot potato forever. I added a solid reference (Heller). -- zero 12:07, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Bernadotte assassination

Bernadotte assassination: It is not true that Lehi never claimed responsibility for it. Israel Eldad admitted it on Israeli TV at the 30th anniversary (1978). Zetler and Markover talked about it on Israeli radio at the 40th anniversary (according to the NYT, 12 Sep 1988). You can find admissions reported in many history books (Bell, Bar Zohar, Ilan, Marton). By now there is nobody who denies it. As far as I know the only thing disputed is of who ordered it. Eldad and others said it was the three leaders together but Shamir denies that.

It's true that Lehi was officially dissolved by then, but in Jerusalem they were still organised and had their weapons. Dayan even mentions joint operations with them in his autobiography.

-- zero 12:07, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC) (UTC)

Wouldn't it be good to put the rival claims into the main document? ---- Charles Stewart 15:21, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Bernadotte assassination is also listed on the Lehi web page. It is towards the end of http://www.lehi.org.il/h_idf.htm . It says that Lehi "saw Bernadotte as a tool in the service of British interests, and viewed his suggestions as a plan for dismantling Israel." -- zero 02:22, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Is there any justification for describing http://www.marxists.de/ as "a non-reliable source" ? - pir 09:06, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's a good question. Maybe the wording can be improved. That site is an activist site rather than an information site, so it has the same problems with bias and skewed viewpoint that activist sites often have. It is necessary to say something to prevent the wrong impression that only communist sources claim Lehi wrote to the Nazis. If you can suggest better wording, please do so. --Zero 12:12, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What we always do, attribute claims, make PsOV clear and let readers make up their mind: "note: this is a link to an excerpt from a book by marxist Lenni Brenner, hosted by an anti-Zionist activist group ; it is not controversial that the letter from Lehi is genuine". At the moment it reads like the website is some kind of nutty conspiracy site involved in falsification of historical evidence that somehow left the Lehi letter intact. - pir 12:43, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lehi vs NMO

We have a problem here. Lehi was a different group under different leadership after Stern's death so there needs to be a distiniction between its activities before and After Stern's death.

Guy Montag 05:07, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no such problem. Almost all historians treat the group led by Eldad, Yellin-Mor and Shamir as the same group as previously led by Stern. As the article says, it went into an eclipse then was resuscitated. Many of the members were the same. This was also the opinion of the "new" group. To this day, members of Lehi regard Stern to have been their founder (see www.lehi.org.il for a quick proof). None of this means that the "new" group was the same in all respects as the "old" group; after all, it had different leaders and circumstances had evolved. But we should follow common practice and treat them as the same group in different time periods. --Zero 13:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Another problem with your changes is the use of "NMO". It is the English acronym of Irgun Zvai Leumi which was the full name of the Irgun, so using it for Stern's group can only be confusing. Stern called his group Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael both to distinguish it from the Irgun and to hint that his group was the "real" Irgun. We could use something like NMOI to distinguish it, but I've never seen that. The alternative, which is what historians tend to do, is to call it "Lehi" all the time but add a note admitting the inaccuracy. I'll do that. --Zero 13:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok. That is a good compromise.

Guy Montag 10:12, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

Aside from the usual arguments about content, bias, etc., this article is poorly structured as it is now. I'll work on it in spare moments, but I thought I'd tag it in the meantime. --Leifern 13:20, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

Contact with the Nazis, etc.

I haven't made any edits, but I'm not sure that the absence of death camps is a valid excuse for what Lehi did - I don't accept it as an excuse for the British authorities' unwillingness to accept Jewish refugees, and there shouldn't be a double standard.

Having said this, the whole Lehi phenomenon needs further research. Clearly, it was an organization that embraced extreme measures, but the article doesn't explain what kind of strategy lay behind it all. For example: Did they really think that killing Folke Bernadotte or Lord Moyne would solve any problems, or were they just looking for a way to destabilize the situation? To me, they seem like a bunch of nutcases, but that only tells me I don't know enough about them. --Leifern 19:58, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Alleged errors

I am removing to here some commentary inserted into the article by a new anon:

Here are some corrections to the text below that I got from an Israeli historian:

1. Leadership of Lehi was never shared among 3 people.
2. Israel Eldad was not a leader in Lehi; rather, he was the "top engineer" -- he organized and built the bombs.
3. Ytshak (Isaac) Shamir replaced Abraham ("Yair") Stern when Yair was killed by British soldiers. Later, Shamir was caught by the British and extradited, at which time he was replaced by Natan Yalin Mor. Note: Shamir later became prime minister of Israel.
4. Uri Tsvi Greenberg was a Jewish poet and a facist, but he was not really associated with Lehi in any way. On the other hand, Yair was himself a poet, and Lehi used his poems.
5. Aba Ahi-Meir was a leader of a street gang. He was not a writer, and thus it could not be that Lehi was guided by his writing. He was a friend of Yair, and at the same time he disliked Shamir. Later, when Lehi broke up, he lead one of the parts that broke away -- the facist sect that joined the "Herut" party (Menahem Begin's political party). The other parts that broke away from Lehi were collectively lead by Shamir and by Natan Yalin Mor. Later, this group itself broke into two parts, one that joined the "Kibbutz Meuhad" movement and the other joined the Likud party.

There are some true things in here but also some very doubtful things. We need more than an unnamed source to make changes, but on the other hand we can examine these issues to see if changes are warranted. In the following "Heller" refers to Joseph Heller's book "The Stern Gang: Ideology, Politics and Terror 1940-1949" (Frank Cass, 1995; previously published in Hebrew under the title Lehi).

• On the contrary, the 3 people names in the article were joint leaders of Lehi for a long period (approx 1944-1948). They were called the 'centre'. All major decisions were made by them together. In the earlier period it was more complicated. Shamir did not take over after Stern's death because he was already in prison and didn't get out for another 7 months (Sep 1942). Meanwhile Yehoshua Cohen (later the assassin of Bernadotte) was in charge but he did little. After escaping from prison, Shamir was the leader for a while, at least after he killed his rival Giladi. Friedman-Yellin was still in prison until Nov 1943, after which the afore-mentioned triumvirate was formed. That lasted until 1948. The article should have these details; I'll work on it.
• Yisrael Scheib (Eldad) was certainly not only a bomb-maker. He was the group's main ideologue from after Stern's death until the end. Like it says in Yisrael Eldad, "He was the movement’s foremost intellectual leader and edited its underground publications."
• Stern was killed by police, not soldiers.
• Abba Achimeir in fact wrote lots of things. Heller references many of them. It was Eldad who split away from Friedman-Yellin and Shamir, when the "Fighter's Party" disintegrated.
• Comments in the article about ideological roots should be revised. I've never been happy about them. The period of Soviet orientation should also be mentioned.

--Zero 11:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

terrorist group???

Lehi was a militant Zionist group, a liberation movement (like the Irgun)but NOT a terrorist group. You can read about the characteristics of terrorism, and see thar the "Lehi" wasn't a terrorist group. Please correct this mistake in order to prevent misunderstanding. Aybabtu 15:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• Interesting. Utter revisionist arrogant crap, but interesting. A Zionist, by any chance? I don't give a damn what the Wiki article on terrorism says, but when you go out dressed as a civilian to commit acts of murder on - amongst others - innocent civilians in order to further your own political agenda which includes the formation of a single-race state at the exclusion of all others, including the native population, then you are a terrorist. Ever heard of Deir Yassin? Bernadotte? You can read about them here. So YOU are the mistake. Israel is the only country in the world which sees fit to lecture the rest of the world on terrorism yet treat its own terrorist groups and murderers as heros and legends, and elect them national leaders. Arafat cannot be a leader becuase he was a terrorist? So what about Begin? In Israel, terrorists are simply people who do not agree with their points of view. 80.6.30.24 11:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Poor civilians. Those Israeli soldiers barbarously killed them. May I remind you that these "civilians" weren't so innocent like you are saying. These so called civilians (and civilians from other villages near Jerusalem) prevented (tried to prevent) the pass of supply convoys to besieged Jerusalem. Even when doctors tried to get there they were attacked and killed in cold blood. You can read about it here. I heard about Deir Yassin massacre and read about it a lot, and I noticed that there is a disagreement between the Arabs and the Jews about what really happened there. The history shows that the Arabs are used to lie and exaggerate in order to accuse the Jews (bring you some examples or you are smart enough not ask?). Lehi and other Jews liberation movements didn't want to kill the Arabs, the Arabs wanted to kill the Jews so the Jews fought back. Begin is one of the most glorious people that Israel has ever had, and his movement is one of the main reasons that "GB" left Israel. Read more about his actions and you will see that these actions were ethical. Israel is the only country in the whole world that has to deal with Arab/Muslim terror even before she was officially declared, and still she treats them with kid gloves. You should see the other side POV and stop believing to anti Semitic teachers in schools. Exiled Palestinian by any chance?Aybabtu 12:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism: American definition - "The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear." British definition - "Terrorism is the use, or threat, of action which is violent, damaging or disrupting, and is intended to influence the government or intimidate the public and is for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause." So following the rule of universal application - "Act as if thy maxim were universal" - we find this applies to groups on both sides, hardly surprising. And if either one of you, or anyone else, plans on responding with crude abuse just save us both the effort and not type anything. LamontCranston 02:51, 23 January 2006

That's completely besides the point. The question is whether Lehi should be called a terrorist group, which I think should. Whatever happened in the formation of the state israel has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I support calling Lehi 'terrorist group' in the first sentence. (82.170.100.222 23:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

Dear Aybabtu, no I am not an exiled Palestinian, nor a racist like you appear to be. I am a secular Englishman with a Jewish grandfather. He lost family in the death camps and escaped from Austria into England in 1943. One thing he taught me is that Zionism is no better than any other "ism" - they all destroy lives in the name of greed and hatred. I have never met an anti-Semitic teacher: they are part of Israel's government-sponsored fantasy world which helps many Jews believe all Gentiles are anti-Israel racists. Indeed, my history teacher had us watching Schindler's List at age 13. And yes, Begin was so great that Ben Gurion (a real hero of the Jews, not a common criminal thug) wanted him dead at one point. Perhaps Begin, Stern et al should have spent their energies fighting Nazi Germany to defend their own....now hang on, isn't there an interesting story about that?.....Seems a new Zionist state was more important than 6 million innocent men, women and children staying free and alive in Europe. I hope it's worth it there in The Promised Land full of right-wing settlers growing fat on state money in the occupied territories while Holocaust survivors were left destitute and starving by that great defender of Zionism - Mr Netanyahu.

My Grandfather's favourite quote:

"My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain - especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state."

Albert Einstein 86.17.246.75 01:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust Denial & Sourcing

While I regret having to link to a website that may have such a bias, it is in fact unimportant. What is there is text from a book that has been published, and is therefore acceptable indepedent research. If you feel that the research is flawed, you must disprove the author, and not the medium that has transmitted the information. Otherwise, deletion of such a reference is irresponsible. Avengerx 10:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you are clearly mistaken. With a source as unreliable and irreputable as the one you providede are not allowed to take their word for anything. Also, it is possible for a book to be inadmissable just as much as a website. Just being published is not enough to pass the litmus test. Do you think Mein Kampf would be citable? Of course not.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 13:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Your Mein Kampf reference has absolutely no analogue to this situation. Avengerx 00:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You are suggesting that just because a book is published it is reliable enough to reference in an encyclopedia. I am showing that that is faulty logic, and really doesn't even make any sense.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Terror group

It is quite established by any reasonable yardstick that lehi was a terror group. I can believe I find my self on the same side as Homey but when he is right he is right. Zeq 10:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

see Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

We aren't calling Lehi a terrorist group; we're saying they've been accused on terrorism. WtA isn't applicable. CJCurrie 23:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That clearly isn't the case. The category seems to be a not so subtle attempt at circumventing that policy. It clearly is not appropriate.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There's currently a discussion to this effort on the Category talk page. You may want to take up your argument there, instead of here. CJCurrie 00:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure whether the category is a good one. If anyone wants to go to vote for its deletion, go ahead with my blessing. One thing I do know is that, as long as this category exists, Lehi undeniably belongs in it. I don't see you removing Al Qaeda from the category. The only possible motive for wanting to remove Lehi is sympathy with this terrorist group, which is not a valid encyclopaedic reason. — Gulliver ✉ 05:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly not assuming good faith. It is innappropriate to make accusations of malovalent motives, especially considering that I have twice removed a similar category from the Hamas article. The al qaeda article is not on my watchlist while Lehi is. Anyways, there is a clear difference between Lehi and Al Qaeda, Lehi's activities were based entirely around the establishment of a particular State, while Al qaeda's activities are not centered around a particular nation, but rather around a larger movement. I could understand the comparison to Hezbollah or even Hamas, but not Al Qaeda or Islamic Jihad.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with WP:FAITH. Misplaced Pages only has the right to make demands on what I do on this website, not on what I think or believe.

Whether you "understand the comparison" between X and Y is irrelevant. All the groups in the category are the same in that notable sources have accused them of terrorism. That is the only thing that matters. Neither does it matter what pages are on your watchlist. Demanding that any given group be removed from the category, but not the others, is not acceptable. It doesn't become acceptable if you claim good faith. — Gulliver ✉ 09:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I do not particularly think you are making much sense, I'm not going to look all over wikipedia to see what other articles this category been added to, I'm going to look on my watchlist and see a category that should not have been added, and then I will remove it. The reason I do not think the category should exist is because it basically seems like a copout, an attempt to include a label that is generally against policy and make it easy to do so.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If your objection is to the category yourself then you should AFD the cat. As long as it stays, however, I don't see how you can reasonably argue that Lehi doesn't belong as they were accused of terrorism by "reliable sources" such as governments and there are few books on the history of Zionism (sympathetic or non) that don't refer to them as a terrorist group. Homey 21:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"Without arguing that the category is legitamate or not, if we include articles like Lehi, it undoubtedly becomes meaningless"

Nonsense. Do you deny that the British, and for that matter the Yishuv leadership, considered Lehi to be a terrorist group or do you think "Stern gang" was an affectionate nickname?Homey 03:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If Lehi described themselves as a terrorist group who are you to disagree?Homey 03:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that there is a policy that states we should avoid the word "terrorist" does. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so its inclusion is always controversial. Why not just explain the accusation in a npov manner in the article's body instead of including a category that implies the accusation was not disputed.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it is in the "accused" category instead of just Category:Terrorist organizations implies that the accusation was and is hotly disputed. In fact, are you suggesting that there is any accusation of terrorism that has ever not been disputed by someone or other?

Essentially, you are a Lehi supporter trying to make Lehi look as good as possible. Compare this with the situation with Al Qaeda. There, I am having a hard time keeping the article in Category:Organizations accused of terrorism, not because there is anyone wanting not to label the organization, but because everyone wants it in Category:Terrorist organizations! It's crazy. You partisans want your favourite terrorist organisations free of labels, and your enemies' organizations labelled as "terrorist". Since there are more Jewish and Christian people editing Misplaced Pages than Muslims, this means that some get the label, and others don't.

I'm afraid that this situation is not acceptable. Pro-terrorists are going to have to accept that we have an NPOV policy, and that all of these organizations will be categorised in a neutral manner.

Note also that the policy does not say to avoid using the word terrorist, but to avoid describing people are terrorists. That is to say that it is fine to give quotations or note accusations by third parties. — Gulliver ✉ 08:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Give me a break, and please do not make uncivil accusations, it really does not help your point, especially when the accusations do not make very much sense. I am neither a Lehi "supporter" or an opponent, and the fact that they haven't existed in almost 60 years leads me to believe "Lehi supporters" probably do not exist anymore. It is clear that inserting a category that says a groups is a terrorist and inserting a category that says a group were accused of being terrorist is almost exactly the same.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be uncivil to call you a dickhead. To note that you are pro-Lehi is simply to state the obvious. Our point is so strong that there is no way to help or weaken it.

"Almost exactly the same"? The same except that one is POV and the other is NPOV. — Gulliver ✉ 08:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Explain removed section

Removed this, my comments in bold:

Following the example of Theodor Herzl’s meeting with Plevye (the Russian Minister of Interior responsible for the Kishinev pogrom) , Lehi attempted to contact German agents in order to see if common interests could exist between them. This was prior to the Wannsee Conference and Adolf Eichmann's task was still expelling Europe's Jews rather than exterminating them (only when it was clear that no country would accept them, did Adolf Hitler realize he had silent approval to annihilate the Jews ). Stern believed that if the Nazis wanted the Jews out of Europe and Lehi wanted them all in Palestine, a mutually beneficial arrangement could be reached, especially since both Lehi and the Nazis were at war against Britain. By working together, the British could be expelled from Palestine and Europe would be rid of its Jews, who instead of going to death camps would set sail for their homeland. --Zero 08:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to comment on your last comment, stating that Palestine is the Jewish homeland does not seem to be Zionist rhetoric. While it may be a central tenet of the Zionist ideology, it seems that the Jews had placed a theological value on that real estate for the majority of their existence. Cheers, Tewfik 01:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:MilHist Assessment

A nice article, of good length, and including a good number of pictures. Some sections look like they could use expansion, but otherwise, overall, a fine treatment of the subject. LordAmeth 17:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Delete this:

Lehi was unique in its ability to unite in its ranks Jews from diverse backgrounds. Unlike the Hagana and Irgun, which were ideologically homogeneous, the Lehi included Revisionist Zionists, Religious Zionists communists, atheists and ultra-Orthodox Jews. Although these groups would normally have nothing to do with one another, they were all united in Lehi for the purpose of creating a state without British rule.

Reasons: (1) It sounds like a recruiting poster. (2) Both Irgun and Haganah included the full range of religious observance from atheist to haredi. (3) Irgun included Revisionists too, being a branch of the Revisionist movement. (4) The only thing remaining is "communists", which I'm not sure about. Certainly the Haganah included people from the forerunners of Mapam even though it was dominated by Mapai. --Zero 03:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Terror

the only relevant part is the fact the british which was the target of the Lehi , regarded them as a terrorist group in their lists. Did the U.N have a list of designated terrorist groups in the world ? If such a list exists, then that can be added with a reference. If they just accepted the British view on this, then it's irrelevant, of course they would accept the mandate view of things, but as an encyclopedia the fight was between the british and the Lehi. "terror" was used as a slur between political parties in Israel perhaps and by Lehi it meant "terror against the british" which is NOT the definition of terror in wikipedia - which is meant to target civilians - and which Lehi was very much agaisnt. This is why it's misleading and WP:POV to write that Lehi was a terrorist organziation since terror is aimed to strike fear at public and not narrowed down to fighting the officials of another force like the British. Therefore, all we can do to maintain WP:NPOV is to say how the British regarded the group - that too is misleading somewhat but is according to the "designated terrorist organizations" in some way... Amoruso 04:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not certain it's accurate to say Lehi didn't target civilians. Anyway ... CJCurrie 05:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is certainly evidence that they did target civillians (both British, Arab and Jewish) - despite their claims to the contrary. Someone less charitable than me might say that this makes them liars as well as terrorists. --SpinyNorman 06:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

where is the evidence that they targeted civilians then ? Present it. Note that civilian deaths are not the same as "targeting civilians". In fact, they never targeted civilians and nobody ever claimed they did. Note that British people in Palestine or relevant to Palestine aren't civilians in this sense. Amoruso 06:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that like Hamas claiming that there is no such thing as an Israeli civillians? In any case, it is irrelevant since Lehi did in fact target civillians (British and otherwise). A survey of their activities in British mandatory Palestine is enough to convince anyone of that. The assassination of Bernadotte because he favored a compromise between Jewish and Arab interests in Palestine... The slaughter of Arab civillians to induce them to flee Palestine was a well-documented policy of Jewish terrorist groups. --SpinyNorman 08:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

no, they didn't. Bernadotte is also not a civilian - civilians are innocent people walking in the streets, not government officials or policemen or soldiers or clerks etc. Your slaughter rhetoric POV is a further proof why this should be removed. In fact, Arabs could join Lehi because they were anti brittish too, it's well documented. Amoruso 09:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

about this newsletter

first, if one wants to say that a policy of Lehi is of a certain type, one needs to cite the official line of the party - for example Yair Stern's directives and principles which were cited. Citing one article from a lehi newspaper and defining it as the official policy is not encyclopedic and it is WP:OR. Furthermore, the article clearly defines what "terror" meant and it's not justification of terrorism but rather "justification of fighting against the British". Amoruso 05:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

not to mention the WP:OR that was added in "biblical references".

He Khazit was not just a Lehi newspaper. It was the official mouthpiece of the Lehi where they published their manifestos and explained their operations. This article is an official statement of policy. Whether you believe that or not is unimportant since it is the opinion of Heller who is a recognised expert on Lehi. The Biblical quotations are in the text of the article and anyone who was familiar with the Torah would recognise them immediately. This is not OR but help for the English reader. As far as justifying terrorism is concerned, they did it all the time and Lehi members continued to do it for decades afterwards: "Personal terrorism is a way of fighting that is acceptable under certain conditions and by certain movements" (Yitzhak Shamir, San Francisco Chronicle, September 5, 1991 quoting Israeli army radio).

The general irrelevance of such an addition can be explained by someone taking an article calling for genocide on all non arabs in a fatah paper (those exist) and sticking it right there in the bulk, for example. Simply irrelevant. Amoruso 05:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• This isn't just an article, it's an editorial from the paper. It's perfectly legitimate as a reflection into the group's mentality; if you have evidence as to their nuanced view of "terrorism", feel free to present it. CJCurrie 07:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

what's the significance of an editorial ? none. This will be deleted unless one finds support for terrorism for example in lehi's official site. Also the rv of the terrorist allegations will be deleted too for reasons cited above. Amoruso 07:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

(EC) Can we actually show that "Their literature regularly acknowledged the label and attempted to justify terrorist actions"? While this may be true, such a statement shouldn't be made on the basis of one editorial. I recommend that whoever claims this find a scholarly or other source. Additionally, I labeled the UN statement with a request for citation. Claiming assassination as a specialty also doesn't seem encyclopaedic - it is quite enough to simply list the numbers. Cheers, Tewfik 07:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The book by Heller contains a large number of examples of justification of terrorism. What do you expect from a group who openly engaged in terrorism?. --Zero 11:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

you need to start conforming to WP:RS, WP:CITE and WP:NPOV and no WP:OR by now. Amoruso 11:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

the main problem here is the misleading attempt to connect differnet intrepretations of the word "terror". The UN defines terror as "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants" And this was never the intent of Lehi, obviously not their declared intent which is what is being hinted here deliberately and wrongfully. British policemen, soldiers and ministers are the only ones targeted by Lehi - this was called TERROR by them. That's why the editorial is irrelevant - it simply means "to strike terror in the hearts of the British". In fact, this is even more inaccurate historically because Yair Stern is famous for his policy against battling civilians , which wasn't always the policy of the Irgun or the Haganah actually. He's famous for his saying : "there are no innocent british, only innocent Arabs" - and all of Lehi's operations were aimed at that sense. It's true that during the war they participated in the early actions prior to the establishment of Zahal but that's military operations and wasn't in the era they were so called "terrorist". Amoruso 07:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If Hamas blows up the Knesset and kills all the politicians, make sure you don't call it terrorism since politicians are not civilians. (Funny!) Actually the statement "there are no innocent British" is the statement of a terrorist and hardly any other proof is required. --Zero 11:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC) Another place where you can check that they called themselves terrorists is in Stern's letter offering to fight for the Nazis. --Zero 11:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

another lie. first of all, the reports over luvinchek's mission and letter have been distored. second, it said : "sabotage, espionage and intellgence up to vast military operations" as in future plans if they'll accept the offer. About the current situation, it said "fightung seriously and unstoppably against the british". nothing about terrorism. Amoruso 11:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So many opinions, so few facts. How would you translate "Terroraktionen" and "terroristischen Taetigkeit"? --Zero 14:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm reporting you what the letter said, according to Moshe Shamir's Yair and Lehi records, not the forged letter cited in certain books. Amoruso 14:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The original letter is still sitting in the German archives and was quoted in full in Yisraeli's book published by Bar-Ilan University. It was also examined by Joseph Heller, the pre-eminent Israeli expert on Lehi, who calls it "entirely authentic" (The Stern Gang, p85). The German text in Yisraeli exactly matches the text at . --Zero 14:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC) By the way, soon I'll be quoting two historians who doubt that Lehi was motivated by "rescue" - that can only remain in the article as one possibility. --Zero 14:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

this is a known lie. The quotes found in these books are wrong. The fact is that the letter said different things than what quoted (happily by holocaust deniers btw) and others including Yisraeli's book. The quotations aren't supported by any "original letter" as the only scan made available is the covering letter. Show me a scan of the letter, signed by Lehi, not by the interpreation of the German delegate, then it will be taken more seriously. Are you by any chance Yosef Schwartz? Amoruso 14:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If you intend to introuce the "thesis" of exterme marxists and holocaust deniers that think Lehi wanted to collaborate with nazis for fasicst reasons, you will not be permitted to do so. enough of your lies have been spread here. Amoruso 15:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

indeed if Hamas only attacked politicians or Israelis they wouldn't be terrorists. No, the statement proves they're not terrorists. They're targetting the british officials, not civilians. Amoruso 11:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Once they killed one of their own members whose "crime" was to want to join the Hagana. That's what they were like. --Zero 11:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Traitors were obviously executed as with every military, and especially clandestine, organization. Nothing to do with terrorism. Amoruso 11:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

the UN quotes only refer to the bernadotte incident

one needs to have them listed in a list of groups of terrorists. Amoruso 12:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no such need. Anyway, they were called a terrorist group, not only the perpetrators of a certain terrorist act. --Zero 14:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So you don't have any sources of such lists then. Your current quotes are quite irrelevant. Amoruso 14:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

removed the extremist web-site. also put the tag on the last section. Who wrote this interpretation of the bibilical reference ? There's copyright violation here or WP:OR. Which will be further WP:OR on the whole issue as it this terror in the sense of hurting innocents as contested above. Also, it's wrong, the reference if at all, is from Jeremiah 1 (although that's the bible, not the Torah, making the whole article dubious as whether it's official. Moreover, there's no justification of terrorism - "directed against representives" - terror here is something else. See above). Amoruso 10:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wrong again. The original Hebrew is "מחה תמחה ... עד חרמה" which every religious Jew will immediately recognise as a reference to Amalek. The first two words are derived from Exodus 17:14 and the second two words from Numbers 14:45. There is nothing like this in Jeremiah 1. --Zero 15:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well we don't know what version you used, so Lehi used to quote this passage : "10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. " Thought it meant that and lost in translation. Anyway, you admit of doing WP:OR. Amoruso 17:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Summary for edit reasons

22:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• As for the Nazi letter issue, Heller wrote an anti Lehi book claiming all sorts of extraordinary claims. I haven't seen a scan of the actual letter but only a scan of the covering letter (the german version is a supposed translate, where's the scan?). This version is used by Holocaust denier Lenni Brenner, who took it from a David Yisraeli's work, who was in the Lehi but didn't participate in the mission. he too provides no scan of this. The wording of the proposal as he put it is disputed, and all other Lehi sources provide a similar version without the use of the obvious fake word "totalitarian" which Yair Stern would have never used. Perhaps he used a 'Kingdom' related word. Moshe Shamir's version of it in the biography of Yair is different and doesn't include this either. One can't quote this version as fact because it isn't, it is simply a version, true, often cited, mainly by Holocaust Denial sites and so, but a repetitive lie is still a lie. The proposal exists of course but was flavoured with a few non existant words. Note that if this was really the version written by Yisraeli himself then it's irrelevant since Yair didn't acknowledge this, and the only thing authorative was what Luvenchek, Yair's delegate, actually said in Beirut and wrote down there.

Your opinion of Heller is irrelevant. He is a senior Israeli historian at Hebrew University and easily passes the Misplaced Pages threshold as a reliable source. Otherwise everything you say here is wrong or irrelevant. Yisraeli had no obligation to give a scan. He gave a complete transcription of the original letter and a citation to the German archive where it can be found. That's completely consistent with normal practice. Heller is not the only additional historian who has examined it (Yaacov Shavit also). You have not brought any reason whatever why these reliable sources should not be brought here. Your opinions and arguments don't count. --Zero 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• As for the Cairo Haifa bombing, the idea of the second bombing is disputed, and because of this it requires cleanup.

You did not find any source that disputes it. You only found one list that omits it and some web articles that have no known origin and so can't be used. --Zero 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• As for the Chazit article, it is unclear who made the biblical reference, and if it was the original editor, it would be classfied as WP:OR. Also there's no "justification" of terrorism in the sense we associate today. Also there's no reason to think this article is official policy, also OR.

You don't seem to know what "OR" is. Quoting from a source and explaning the translation is called encyclopedia writing. --Zero 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• As for the intro, Terrorism in the Lehi sense meant inflicting terror on the British and not inflicting harm to civilian populations. If it was this, then Lehi would also bomb buses and metro trains in London, but they didn't - it was directed against individual or various official targets , policemen, and military convoys. One can't claim that Lehi justified terrorism or was a terrorist organization by its own self simply by stating they used the word "terror" - one needs to explain the scope of the ideology and tactics. Personal terrorism means the assassination of individual, it's not terrorism. Article provided as example actually proves this.

All of this is your editorial. Take it somewhere that editorials are acceptable. --Zero 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• UN terms in context of Bernadotte (above).

One example is enough to prove the point anyway, your case here is illogical. --Zero 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• POV term murder in article removed.
• marxists extreme site citing holocaust denier Brenner removed of course.

Since you also removed the citation to Yisraeli, your real motive is exposed. It is you who was caught quoting from holocaust deniers, and anyway Brenner is not a holocaust denier at all. Actually he called holocaust denial "whale shit". (Be careful as posting libels against living people is one of the simplest ways of getting banned.) Brenner is a communist anti-Zionist and he is not the source for this document. Yisraeli is the source, with Heller and Shavit as confirming sources. Brenner's copy is only linked as a convenience for our readers because nobody else seems to have put it on the web. You don't want anyone to read what Stern wrote; that's your problem not mine. --Zero 13:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Amoruso

• Start-Class military history articles