Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:03, 10 September 2006

Please avoid unusual formatting. This is both my user page and my talk page. To find out more about me and what I do, click on the icons in the amazingly cool navigation bar above. Click here to leave a new message. Disclosure of political bias: I took the political compass questionnaire on 15 July 2006 and the result was economic left/right: minus 8.13, social libertarian/authoritarian: minus 8.26 Please contact me by email if you are blocked from editing: minorityreport@bluebottle.com

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Cows

Do you like cows? --Naelphin 03:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I couldn't eat a whole one. --Tony Sidaway 16:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Never mind the sollogs

Hi. As you had a clear opinion on its predecessor, I thought you might also have one on this. (Though of course you're away right now....) -- Hoary 04:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ready to be archived. --Tony Sidaway 16:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Aggressive user

In the course of a challenging edit war around the Waldorf education article, one new Misplaced Pages user (User:Pete K) is employing rather offensive personal attacks on the talk page. There seem to be no neutral participants who can suggest an appropriate tone for the discussion; more precisely, one has, and has been ignored. Can you help? See Talk:Waldorf education.

The user also has a tendency to editorialize in the article; the distinction between describing his personal opinions or experiences, on the one hand, and verifiable information, on the other, seems to be unclear to him. The article needs clean-up, and some useful results are coming out of the discussion, but I for one am often uncomfortable with the tone and style.

Hoping you can help in some way! Hgilbert 18:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ready to be archived. --Tony Sidaway 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Award

		The da Vinci Barnstar
		This award is for your efforts to make Misplaced Pages a better place. Martial Law

This award is also for the Arbitration Committee as well. This is one Wikipedian who is thanking you for doing a often thankless, often resented job. Martial Law 01:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ready to be archived. --Tony Sidaway 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hiya!

Hey, I just noticed your name on a tweak of that PZ Myers page. So this is where you've gotten to, deep in the bowels of Misplaced Pages.

Like a tapeworm. :) --Tony Sidaway 19:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Juro

All the staff were done in the past. Annoying POV pusher , clearly with a hate/angster against hungarians (see the few previous links, i put in). He even had block(s) for this. How/where can I ask for a third view comment? Or ask for banning him from editing articles related to Hungary and Hungarians? The wikipedia's arbitration pages are better then tha maze was in Crete. :S Can't find anything. --VinceB 11:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Try making an edit on Misplaced Pages:Third Opinion, or else ask for mediation. You should in early stages be trying to see if you can persuade the user to stop pushing points of view into articles.

If there are at least two editors who have tried, and failed, to resolve the dispute with this user, then try going to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct.

If all other avenues fail, or seem very likely to fail, come back to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration and read the instructions on how to apply for arbitration.

If the user is engaged in persistent edit warring, and the problem is rather urgent, make an edit on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (WP:ANI for short) and an administrator will take a look and take action if necessary. --Tony Sidaway 12:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but it lasts since he regged in. All you mentioned above were all done, since 2003, a ots of times by a lot of users. Guess, the time for an arbitration is here for more than 2 yrs now. Will you help me? I don't know how to do this.--VinceB 12:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'll reformat your application. --Tony Sidaway 12:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi. As an editor active in the same area as Juro, I feel that I can (and should) provide some evidence against VinceB's claims. Since you filed the RfA for him/her, could you advise me please where I should write my comment to this case? Thanks in advance. Tankred 15:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, you're welcome to make a new section on that application called something like "Statement by User:Tankred" and add your own signed comments. Keep it brief and to the point; arbitrators don't like to read long submissions. --Tony Sidaway 15:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I doubt VinceB used other means how to resolve his personal dispute with Juro (and btw, I failed to find any particular talk page, where the alleged dispute occurred). As far as I know, Juro has never been mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct. Unfortunately, I was not able to find the archived cases of Misplaced Pages:Third Opinion, but I do not remember anyone officially asking for the third opinion in this case. I believe that VinceB's request is unnecessary and it would be nice if he provided any evidence that (1) he/she has a dispute with Juro and (2) he/she used other means of dispute resolution before filing his/her request. Tankred 15:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it seems unlikely to be accepted (though I don't make such decisions). If it's rejected, likely the arbitrators will recommend a course of action such as mediation or RfC. --Tony Sidaway 18:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I just realized, you put this on the arbitration page again. I asked for a third opinion, not arbitration (and some help :). See above. --VinceB 16:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I'll remove it. Please do ask if you think you still need help from me. --Tony Sidaway 17:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm, I simply lost in burocracy :) OMG, just the Pope doesn't have to be asked before arbitration... :D On the other hand, right now the "Mediation" step is next, but I thought I don't have to go through again on these, because others did it, as you can see also, if you give the time for a short preview. I want to stop his actions against hungarians, he's very agressive and POV pusher. --VinceB 18:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Chaldeans

Hi, you might wanna look at this Chaldean's. They try to get by it, but this is the real page; Chaldean. Chaldean 04:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ready to be archived. --Tony Sidaway 16:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"Chat room buddies"

Replying here as I didn't see that it was relevant to Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship. Not sure why anyone would find this offensive or ugly or whatever. Chat rooms are everywhere. People talk to their buddies in them quite frequently. I see nothing offensive about this. I think you're overly sensitive to things being "ugly". Friday (talk) 15:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Where is the chatroom? When does Carnildo visit it? These are simple enough questions. If there isn't such a chatroom (and I'm not aware of one) then what you were doing sounds like a very, very ugly thing indeed. Maybe there's an innocent explanation. What is the chatroom called? --Tony Sidaway 15:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Now you're just being silly. I don't see that the project is helped by us sniping at each other, so I see no useful purpose to continuing along these lines. Friday (talk) 15:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I was about to ask you to please remove the baseless slur. --Tony Sidaway 15:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Cool Cat/Ex-CVU

I do not take this lightly. There was no personal attacks involved. You lost what you had left of my trust in you, if that matters at all to you... You prosecuted me during the Moby Dick thing and I cant forget that and now this, deletion campaign against the CVU, and other things too.

You are no longer my mentor, I have to trust my mentor and I no longer trust you.

--Cat out 18:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It was obvious who you were referring to. I'm sorry that I lost your trust but No personal attacks is important and if I didn't do it somebody else (and I know who that somebody is) would have done so. --Tony Sidaway 18:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

So saying that essjay banned me is a personal attack (I was actualy nice enough not to mention nicks)? Why are you the one always advocating all actions against me? You might as well indef block me. I pitty myself for all the support I gave to essjay not just my support vote to him on CVU but also my support vote to his burocratship and et al. --Cat out 18:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please cool it

Disagreement / Disrespect

Tony, I respectfully ask you to cool it off. Your self-righteous, dismissive and defiant attitude to people who disagree with your actions harms not only your opponents. It harms you as well, and, most importantly, it harms an entire Misplaced Pages because you are one of the most visible admins here doing much of the dirty work. You and 10 other admins do about 90% of admin work overall and we are all indebted to you for that. People who do more tend to make more mistakes as the only way not to make any is to do nothing, clearly not the case for you.

Disagreement with your actions does not mean a personal attack, as you tend to perceive it. Neither such disagreements question your integrity while your reactions suggest you see it as such.

What worked for me best was when I saw something that angered me a lot, I gave it a little time before reacting rather than responding at once. This is an old advise but an easy to forget one.

In no way it is my intention to tell you what to do. Largely thanks to your regning on trolls Misplaced Pages is the place where people can actually write article together, which is our main job. Please just take my suggestion under advisement as no response, defiant or not, is necessary. OTOH, if you feel like this warrants a discussion, fine with me either way. I will be around, while not 24/7.

Regards, --Irpen 23:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I'm really sorry if my comments sound dismissive, That's absolutely not the impression I want to give. I certainly don't regard disagreement as a personal attack. Personal attack I regard as a personal attack, and that alone.

I notice that you mention things that anger you on Misplaced Pages. I'm sorry if there are things here that anger you. --Tony Sidaway 23:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of piling on.. Tony, if you honestly don't intend to come off sounding the way you sound, there are some things you could do to help change it. The best option is to change the way you think. But, forget that- you could also just change the way you talk and nobody but you would know the difference anyway, so one's about as good as the other. By changing the way you talk, what I mean specifically is things like: stop saying "ridiculous" about any opinions that are different from yours. Stop insisting that your way is the only way things could possibly work. Don't call the reasoned opinons of people different from you "the howling of the mob". It's the little things like this that cause people to find you self-righteous and dismissive. Friday (talk) 00:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't say "ridiculous" about opinions that aren't the same as mine. Only ones that appear clearly ridiculous, for instance here, here and here. --Tony Sidaway 00:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid it would not be possible to surgically extract from me my contempt for the howling of the mob. This doesn't mean that I mean ill will to any person who engages in these periodic witch-hunts that I often find myself having to fire-fight, but it does mean I have to confront people with the ugliness of the things they're combining together, as a group, to do.

You couldn't seriously accuse my of being dismissive; I've spent an enormous amount of time and effort explaining my point of view. --Tony Sidaway 00:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, would you say that you spend more time explaining your point of view than trying to understand the POV of others? Regards, Ben Aveling 04:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No. I read far, far more than I write. This isn't surprising because there is only one of me and there are many people who are not me. And, I think it has to be said, most people are far more prolix then I am. --Tony Sidaway 04:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not asking about number of words, but about time. Do you spend more time thinking about what the other person is trying to say, or more time thinking about how to help them understand. Over to you. Ben Aveling 04:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It depends. I can express myself well in few words. Others seem to struggle with this and of course it can take a while to wade through a long discussion. --Tony Sidaway 04:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that's true. And yet, there are some good people who come away from a conversation with you, thinking you don't respect them. Ben Aveling 05:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you have some very, very serious problems of perception, Irpen. In particular, the allegation that I'm "trying to make " anyone's "life as much troublesome as possible" is appalling and I really do urge you to rethink your contributions to this discussion. --Tony Sidaway 05:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the problem is that I don't think much of the opinion they have expressed. --Tony Sidaway 05:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Why does that cause a problem? Ben Aveling 05:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If I don't agree with their opinion, perhaps they think it's because I don't like them. I've noticed that people whose opinions I agree with seldom complain that I disrespect them, so possibly the two things are linked in some minds. --Tony Sidaway 05:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Possibly because how you express your opinions to those who disagree with you, how you never accept being possibly wrong (even in the retrospect). The whole thing returns to the very issues raised from the beginning: defiant and dismissive self-righteousness as an overall attitude when interacting with others. --Irpen 05:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that's right, and I think people are justified in that belief. My sense of what's happening is that you've had your copper's hat on so long, you've become very ready to assume that anyone who isn't a copper is a villian. Ben Aveling 05:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

That's utter nonsense. --Tony Sidaway 05:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it? The people you clash with, they aren't they mostly idiots? Ben Aveling 06:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Valuing Tony's opinion

"thinking you don't respect them" isn't really a problem. Other editors care about that no more than Tony cares for their respect. The problem is Tony's turning the Misplaced Pages into a battleground between himself and editors who, unlike Tony, actually write content but happen to occasionally disagree with him in non-Main space, where Tony spends all of his edits. Tony tries to make their life as much troublesome as possible uses an utter defiance and intimidation, as well as a real treat of blocks, in order to "prevail" so to speak in the issues of disagreement and in the end, makes his own life here troublesome toowikiexperience a nervewrecking ordeal. He gets an overwhelming support from everyone when he deals with those who come here to troll. He gets none of it from his treating anyone who disagrees with him like those trolls. It may be a natural consequence of him spending more than anyone else I know with fending of trolls. After the nerve wrecking experience of doing that Tony starts to perceive everyone who disagree with him like a troll. And understandable reaction but a harmful one. That's why I suggested that Tony return to main space editing for a little. --Irpen 05:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, hi. Tony and I disagree, often stridently, but he's never treated me as a troll. I just thought I'd point out that your generalization about his behavior is inaccurate, it turns out. Tony is a very good communicator, sometimes, even with people with whom he disagrees. It can be difficult to tease that good communicator out, but he's in there. If you know how to talk to him, he's quite reasonable and easy to work with. Otherwise... maybe not so much, 'cause he's not the type to necessarily meet you halfway. -GTBacchus 06:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologize since that was an overgeneralization. While Tony is prominent enough so that I have heard of him before, I never actually interacted with him so I could not have known and my overgeneralization is unjustified. Actually, while he called me things lately, he never used the term "troll" too. From seeing him applying this term clearly to non-trolls but editors who simply disagreed with him, in the last three days of my interacting with Tony I made this unfair generalization from several occurances that I saw. --Irpen 07:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Irpen. Are you sure you don't care about Tony's opinion of you? Regards, Ben Aveling 05:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Particularly of Tony's? Not much really. Only in one day Tony accused several editors who wrote much content (which is our main job here) and resolved disagreements in hunderds of articles in good faith in a friendly and collegiate way and gained much respect from the community (but not from Tony) recogized through attained adminships, many wikiawards, respect they get in the article's discussions, etc. in trolling, slurring and stupidity due to their disagreements with what he said and what he did. Just minutes earlier he even used an edit summary to allege that I have "problems with perception" while, as per WP:NPA "Abusive edit summaries are particularly ill-regarded." So, no. I apreciate Tony's committment and hard work here but I am not trying to be on his favored side in view of the mentioned above. Nor I am trying to extract any kind of apology from him which, I must say to his credit he occasionally offered with sincerety for his past mistakes which are not directly related to this matter. He did not harm me personally in any way other than the overall, and I am sure unintentional, harm to this project from his lately hardened attitudes. --Irpen 07:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Anger Management

Tony, I am sorry to see that your reply was such, especially the second part. "I'm sorry if there are things here that anger you." I am also sorry that things get you angry here. I am even more sorry that Misplaced Pages in its current form cannot accomodate many good editors and a whole bunch of prolific authors of dozens of FAs left already (hopefully they are replaced by the newcomers): 172, Latinus, Wiglaf and many more who left either because of trolls or because of the disrespecting attitudes they received from Misplaced Pages's authoritative figures to which you undoubtedly belong. Personally, I can take such attitudes. While I am not putting myself in the same league as those valuable authors, I am not as brittle as them either (perhaps because I am not in the same league).

You say you don't want to leave an impression that your response to constructive criticism is dismissive. Well, I tell you that it is and I am not alone at it . When I already clicked "save page" to leave my last message, I noticed the thread above (#Your blocks) which basically repeated my thoughts very closely. Your response was dismissive there and your very response above is dismissive. You bluntly dismissed my complaints about your attitudes stating that this is not your intention to leave this impression. Your intention matters little. You do leave this impression in most all your actions in the last two days (that's all the time I was watching as I did not interact with you in the past and only knew your name as that of one of the most active and committed admins, which I still think is the case).

I will not repeat any of the things I said lately on this as they are available here. I added emphasis there for convenience if you would be so kind to reread this thread and the responses you got from various people there, all established contributors, all known to be non-trolls, most known to write content and all but a few, questioning both your action and your treatment of criticism. Someone was so kind as citing me verbatim at the new ArbCom which while likely to be dismissed, I have no objection to since it may help us all by the ArbCom shedding the light of its judgement to the real problem that endangers Misplaced Pages now. It used to be trolls being allowed to harm us all unchecked for months due to the admins indecisiveness. This is fixed now. Now it is WP:AN#Hasty blocking by a minority of self-righteous administrators, who do us all a lot of good by 90+% of their blocks being on target but with the loss of the remaining 10% outweighing the benefits not because the number of users that fall under 10% but the quality of those users. I don't know whether you read that post in full but judging by your, again defiant, response to a very related issue you either not read the whole thing or refused to give it a thought. Anyway, I will add my statement to the developing ArbCom case to share my thoughts on it with the community and the ArbCom members. But now I need some WP:TEA --Irpen 00:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I sent you a brief note over an email. Nothing big but you will understand why I chose a private method to communicate this small thing

I don't get angry here. My judgement may differ from yours, but I'm pretty much making levelheaded, cool judgements that tend to work and seem to make sense on reflection days and weeks after. I'm sorry if you think otherwise. If by "dismissive" you mean that, when talking to someone else, I sometimes express a different opinion than that expressed by that person, you're right. If I didn't do this we wouldn't be able to distinguish my opinion from yours, would we? --Tony Sidaway 00:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect -- and in general I support what you do -- you don't suffer fools gladly, and you're damn sure about what you know is right; problem is, that can come across as "I'm right so your blather isn't worth listening to." Which, most of the time, it isn't. But I ran into that "dismissiveness" a couple weeks ago, when I squeaked up about that Karl Meier thing. I'm pretty much immune to it -- since I also know I'm right and I also don't suffer fools gladly. But you've decided to take a leadership role in this community, so your tone is more important than you might think it is. I'm not concerned about the reactions of the twits and fools; the quicker they get the point and find a new playground, the better. But the people who are, at worst, slightly misguided, are worth cultivating -- and those are the people who are most likely to be affected by being brushed off by people with more community standing. Feel free to ignore all this and go on exactly as you have been, of course; you're doing great work here, and I certainly appreciate your efforts on Misplaced Pages's behalf. --jpgordon 01:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how I could have been more conciliatory on the Karl Meier thing. I took it right to the arbitration committee for clarification. --Tony Sidaway 02:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, that all worked out well -- I'm just describing my reaction to one of your comments early in the discussion ("gosh, that was dismissive", essentially.) I'm not in any way criticizing your actions, just suggesting that your tone is sometimes perhaps not in Misplaced Pages's best interests. --jpgordon 03:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. --Tony Sidaway 03:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Battlefields

Regarding this edit I would not revert it, but I guess you have not got the point - of course you are entitled to have an opinion different from Irpen's or mine and use somehow strong words to express it, but Ghirlandajo has the same rights on these matter (actually more, since the admins are suppose to have higher standards of behavior). That is all abakharev 02:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What Ghirlandajo doesn't have is the right to treat Misplaced Pages as a battleground. --Tony Sidaway 03:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, AFAIK he doesn't treat it as such - he just creates content and expresses his opinions (sometimes in stronger word that is necessarily). abakharev 04:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree on that. He openly depicts Misplaced Pages as being in a state of warfare "between wikilawyering admins and writing editors of WP". He says " know too well that, if their aberrant behaviour is not exposed in ArbCom, all their mistakes will be buried in the archives of this page, as have been in the past. The question is whether the community is willing to trust these any more" and refers to the bureaucrats who chose to promote Carnildo as "Carnildo's buds". This is open, naked, belligerence of the worst kind. --Tony Sidaway 11:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to interject, but I have to disagree on that. Expressing his opinion on the state of Misplaced Pages in a civil tone without resorting to personal attacks is completely acceptable. Questioning the behavior of beauracrats in pushing through a contentious RfA is also well within the bounds of valid discourse. You are more than welcome to disagree with him, argue with him, or ignore him. But honestly, with no disrespect intended, how could you have thought a 3 hour block would improve the situation in any way? You seem like an intelligent and clear thinking person, how could you appraise the situation, see that he has issues with block-prone administrators, and determine that the best way to defuse his comments was a short and arbitrary block? I apologize for jumping in, I just had to respond. Thank you.—Nate Scheffey 19:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Saying a bureaucrat or admin or editor got it wrong is fine. Accusing any of them of malfeasance, without good evidence, and especially doing so habitually and in a bellicose manner, as Ghirlando does, is not. --Tony Sidaway 19:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

My dictionary has malfeasanace as "wrongdoing or misconduct especially by a public official". So yes, Ghirlandajo suggested miscoduct on the part of the beauracrats for pushing through a contentious RfA. So did a lot of editors. That is not incivility, it is not a personal attack, and it should never result in a block. As for the habitual or bellicose nature of Ghirlandajo's comments, in several of the ones cited in his block he advises other editors to "cool off", "ignore it" , and to "stop bickering and start writing articles". This doesn't sound like a person so hell-bent on the total destruction of all admins that the only possible preventative measure is an emergency 3 hour block before they destroy the entire encyclopedia. Nor do I think it is beneficial or constructive to scan the comments in a contentious but winding down RfA, select a bunch by one editor, and post the diffs on his talk page with the advice to "tone it down". Taking that action, especially knowing the nature of his complaints, how did you think he would react? And when he did react as expected, blocked. That should solve that problem.—Nate Scheffey 21:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I would rather agree with Nscheffey. How exactly you thought people would react to a decision, which is at best unprecedented and at worst quite controversial. Would Ghirla been alone to react in such a way, your own reaction would be quite understandable and justified, but it was far from being the case.

And incidentally, advising editors to "cool off", "ignore it", and to "stop bickering and start writing articles" is a straightforward lack of tact, bordering on impoliteness. Misplaced Pages is a community, not a totalitarian state in which people get up to work every day and just have to approve the Party's Hard Line. Therefore, their opinion is very important and should be considered, especially in the case of well-established contributors with tens of thousands of edits. Telling him (and I mean especially him, selected from like 30 users who expressed more or less the same feeling) to "cool down" equals to throw oil into the fire, rather than extinguish it. -- Grafikm_fr 00:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no more to say. Nothing you say justifies Ghirlandajo's ongoing problematic behavior. As an administrator I found his behavior grossly inappropriate. He is welcome to edit Misplaced Pages, but not to use it as a battleground. Nor, for that matter, are any of you. --Tony Sidaway 01:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I'll make a couple observations and get out of your hair. Your remark "You couldn't seriously accuse my of being dismissive; I've spent an enormous amount of time and effort explaining my point of view" was fairly illuminating. Not being dismissive involves listening to other editors even more than it involves explaining your point of view. This is the point you seem to not be getting. Also, you've been dismissive from the very start of this conversation about you being dismissive (see the edit summary here), yet you still say you're not doing it on purpose. I'm still struggling to wrap my brain around that one. Friday (talk) 03:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

There you go again, you see. First I'm dismissive, and then when I remark that I make a huge effort to explain myself to people you say I don't listen. If I didn't listen I obviously wouldn't be able to respond. If you're struggling to make yourself understood it's because you're making statements that are not congruent with the existence of this dialog. --Tony Sidaway 11:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's try again. We seem to be agreed on the following:

• You perceive my responses to you as dismissive.
• When you elaborate, it appears that this manifests itself in a feeling that I don't agree with you even after you have made an effort to explain your reasoning.
• We know that that feeling is valid. People frequently disagree with one another and you and I are no exception.

So okay. We've established that you and I don't see eye to eye on several issues, including whether or not I listen to you. Having reread this discussion several times now I am convinced that I listened and completely understood your meaning at all times, but I do not agree with your reasoning and I've pointed out several apparent logical inconsistencies in it. If I'm mistaken you could explain in turn how my reasoning is faulty or my perceptions are in error. This would enable the discussion to continue. --Tony Sidaway 12:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Attitude

Tony, your continued intolerable attitude you keep demonstrating here as well as just within last hour by two attacks on people whose only fault is disagreeing with you prompted me to add more to the above.

It is worrying that you fail to answer the concerns brought to you by many users, not trolls but content editors, admins and not, with the same rights and duties like you, with anything but denial. Everyone is tired of pointing out to this attitude of yours because the only thing everyone gets in response is your self-righteousness and more of the same attitude. I have concerns that both certain things you do and the way you do them harm Misplaced Pages unnecessarily. Other editors agree, see eg.this "Tony's Attitude" dialog.

You refuse to listen (while you claim you do, several people pointed to you that you don't) and simply dismiss the points brought to you by several users many times. Only within last day and only at your talk page several people from different places, all respected Wikipedians in good standing, told you all the same thing. Here is a non-inclusive set of examples (there is more above):1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Ok, if you disrespect me that would reduce by 1 the number of respected ones within a day per your talk page but there are still plenty and you should take it as some food for thought. Now, I am not counting here basically the same things said to you elsewhere (ArbCom statements, WP:AN, WP talk:RfAdm, etc) during this very same day by many more people who you cannot discount because they are all established editors here, content creators and admins.

Your response to each of the users complaining about your being dismissive and defiant was equally self-righteous, dismissive and defiant. To those concerns cited above your responses were: 1, 2,3, 4, 5, respectively (again, I am talking only those five at your talk page, there are more at this very page and elsewhere).

In two other cases within the same time period and on the very same page of yours you even used an offensive language towards two other admins that gave you an absolutely valid criticism accusing one of them in slurring and another one in trolling. I was also surprised to find out that in the latter case your "response" consisted of censoring your own talk from what you would have said yourself (as you did) had that be you talking to another user and not the other way around like it was this time. When the other user's attitude to your message was equally defiant, you simply blocked him ironically citing "Unreasonable and defiant response to request to tone down". Nevertheless, you obviously do the exact same things for which you block others. I am not requesting you to block yourself for that. And I also think requesting your block would be a poor idea for the very same reason why your block of Ghirla that caused so much stir accompanied by your defiance was an extremely bad move you failed to admit, less apologize.

I just want to reemphasize that several unquestionably reputable wikieditors (not just me regardless of where you put me) are alarmed by the recent developments of your attitude and see it harmful for the climate here. It weighs with heavy costs on the entire project and there are no benefits that somehow justify these costs. I am basically saying this almost merely for the record because I almost have no hope to receive anything from you other than another set of self-righteous statements. If, however, I am wrong, and you take time to analyze the problem with your attitude that several people are trying to convince you to address, you may actually come up with something different and, perhaps, consider changing the way you interact with the community.

As a suggestion, if I may, prompted by your bemusing mention of wikilawyering I notice that in the last two weeks you made less than 50 edits in the mainspace. While each and every of them is a useful small thing for some article (fixing redirs, links, protection, etc.) there are no content creating edits among them. I am not looking any further back (I assume you wrote much at some point) and I don't discount the mopping as a very useful activity. I am saying trying to write for a change may actually ease things up a little as well as cool you off and allow others to work in a better climate. You will also find out that others will step in as effectively to replace you in blocking real trolls who harm us all, a job you do superbly. But concentrating on this job, like you do, tends to harden people up so that they start to perceive everyone around them as such, particularly those who disagree, however in good faith. Please, pretty please with sugar on top, cool it!

In no way this problems take away the enormous good you brought to Misplaced Pages by your devotion and hard work. People are not infallible, yourself included. I am begging you to please give it a thought rather than responding at once with would would response be if you do.

Sincerely, --Irpen 02:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You're continuing to mistake listening and disagreeing for not listening. Friday does exactly the same. --Tony Sidaway 02:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Friday and others. Now you convinced me. How about other things? Well, never mind. You said it all so superbly! --Irpen 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Succinctness is essential, particularly on a wiki. --Tony Sidaway 04:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I find that a good way to let people know that I'm listening is to paraphrase their argument back to them, and then - without yet replying to it - ask them if I did it correctly. That way, I'll either get a clarification, or a grateful acknowledgement that they really do feel understood. Then I can reply to their argument, secure that we're on the same page going into my reply. Not having studied the current situation, I'm not making any claim about how you may have handled it; please understand my comment here as completely general. In general, though, people respond very well to being affirmed by having their own thoughts correctly articulated by another. -GTBacchus 02:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we've gone around this particular mulberry bush enough times. We all know where we stand. You and I have been here before when I've had to deal with other problem editors. A little splashback is inevitable. --Tony Sidaway 02:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, what I just said was not a mulberry bush we've gone around before, and I'm quite explicitly not criticizing you here. I'm just trying to share a very specific strategy for placating upset people. You can take it or leave it, ok? I would take issue with "inevitable", because I've seen people who are quite adept at avoiding it. If my suggestion bothers you, please ignore it. -GTBacchus 02:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know you don't agree with my strategy. As I say, we've been around this one before. --Tony Sidaway 02:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Our memories must differ. We've never had an interaction about how to let people know that you're listening to them before. Since you appear unreceptive to any kind of suggestions, I'll just fuck off now. -GTBacchus 02:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm very sure that we went through this whole thing during the Alienus affair. I seem to manage to make myself understood and I'm not overly concerned with those who believe that I in turn don't understand them. Understanding what someone is trying to say and agreeing with it are two completely different things. Your mileage may vary. --Tony Sidaway 02:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No, the topic of showing someone that you're listening never came up then, and it's the only topic I was trying to address here. We disagreed on numerous points over Alienus, but that wasn't one of them. To take this very exchange as an example, you haven't indicated in any way with your words that you know what I said to you in my initial post here. Your sentence "Understanding what someone is trying to say and agreeing with it are two completely different things" seems to imply that you think I was equating those somehow. I wasn't. If you feel it's necessary to recite truisms like that to me, it leads me to strongly believe that you have no idea where I'm coming from. If you can't see the value in finding out where someone else is coming from, in a communication situation, I guess I can't explain it to you. Best of luck to you, Tony. -GTBacchus 02:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm sure it did but never mind. What you're asking is that I shouldn't just read, understand and respond to what people say to me, but that I should engage in detailed conversation. "So, X." "Ah, you mean X?" "Yes, X." "Oh, yes, X, but then again Y." "Really? I never thought of that."

A wiki is probably the least suitable medium for that kind of discussion. To take an example, Irpen's latest contribution is an entire essay and goes off on several uninteresting tangents on which I don't feel like bothering to correct him. It would take hours. While it might do his ego a lot of good I don't think it would advance the project.

I get the message that a small and disparate sampling of editors find my interactions problematic. I think this is inevitable given the kind of things I deal with and the role I play in the project, and I do appreciate that you don't agree with me on that.

To go back to the start, I have this "self-righteous, dismissive and defiant attitude to people who disagree with my actions" and when I examine this it seems to boil down to the fact that I don't agree with people who don't agree with me. Well I already knew that. --Tony Sidaway 03:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, my ego has nothing to do with it. I know you don't care about my ego and I care even less about your not caring. I get enough appreciation in life and in Misplaced Pages and your contempt matters little, especially since I find out that this is all you have to those who disagree with you. I care about the problems that are caused by your actions. It used to be that their overall effect was overly positive. Lately, the net sum is negative. You don't need me to change my opinion on that and I know you can't care less. I simply watched what was going on. What matters is that those who agree with me happen to be many and those are not trolls that you so superbly blocked all the time (no sarcasm and thank you for that) but those, who unlike you (at least lately) write for Misplaced Pages, which is the goal of this project. --Irpen 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, thank you for your detailed reply. I feel a lot better about this interaction, and that matters to me, because I need to know that I'm working with people with whom I can communicate, when it becomes necessary. If that weren't true, I'd have to quit. Maybe that means I'm psychically weak in some way, if so, I thank you for your patient indulgence. (no sarcasm - seriously I appreciate your patience in giving me more attention than you feel should be necessary.) It's true that it's the question of inevitability on which we disagree: You accept a certain amount of static as unavoidable, while I continue to suggest that you could avoid significantly more than you do. It's true that it would take more effort, and at some point there's diminishing returns. I guess our beef is really over where that point is.

Your last paragraph there is odd. I don't agree with people who don't agree with me either, but I seem to manage to convince them that I've heard and understood their issues, which seems to leave them in a much better mood, and I get basically zero complaints. Maybe it's not your disagreeing with them that upsets them, so much as your unwillingness to do the little things that would dignify them, since what they're really looking for, half the time, is just an affirmation of their individual dignity in what can be a very impersonal and intimidating environment. On the other hand, I'm certain I do less dirty work around here than you do, so maybe it's that. Maybe it's that I'm too lenient with people who show a reluctance to "get it". I will certainly continue to examine my own actions, with an eye to improvement, and I'll reflect on what I can learn from this conversation.

My intent posting here wasn't to get on your case, or to have any of this discussion, really. I thought I was dropping off a fairly benign suggestion, that could be applied to quickly defuse a situation in which someone is accusing you of not listening to them. I think you might be able to incorporate that trick, without significantly changing your "strategy" - it's just a tool. I think you could probably use it very effectively, if you tried.

I wish you peace, Tony. -GTBacchus 03:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm absolutely sure we all have different thresholds at which we feel our communication is being acknowledged adequately. On a wiki it's probably a very good idea to considerably lower one's expectations of interaction. Someone who cannot do that may encounter severe problems. The project isn't about you and me. Really it isn't. The fewer bits wasted stroking egos the better. --Tony Sidaway 03:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to accept that what I consider perfectly normal conversation, you consider ego stroking. Sometimes, I manage to help sort out disagreements, and get previously intransigent people to talk with each other productively, so I'm going to keep doing what I do. I'll see you around, I'm sure. -GTBacchus 03:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not one of life's mediators. It takes different ingredients to bake a cake. --Tony Sidaway 04:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

While some ingredients may actually turn less edible (climate) and less nutritious (content). --Irpen 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm all for cake. Should you ever desire the assistance of one of life's mediators, please don't hesitate to let me know; I'd be delighted to help. -GTBacchus 04:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion

Look chaps, I think we've all had a good go and said all we can say on this subject. A few people continue to get steamed up and make all kinds of preposterous allegations that I'm absolutely sure they'll think better of in the morning. So I'll leave it there. No hard feelings, but I think some people in this discussion are simply not going to be mollified no matter how calmly and nicely I continue to deal with their concerns. --Tony Sidaway 05:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ready to be archived. --Tony Sidaway 16:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Point

Hi, I think you are driving here to the point I made a bit bellow there: Ghirla vs Community. Disagree? Renata 03:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree. In my opinion he's treating this project like trench warfare. I think your summation of evidence is very good. --Tony Sidaway 03:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

So maybe you should modify (again :]) your statement to that extent? Renata 11:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No need. You put it well and the arbitrators are very experienced and know the score, so they either agree with us that there is a problem to be arbitrated or they don't. --Tony Sidaway 17:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Policy on signatures

What's the policy on complex signatures again? This is in reference to this signature, covering 4 lines in diffs. --Ragib 07:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

We have a guideline at Misplaced Pages:Sign your posts on talk pages (WP:SIG for short). Like most guidelines it's a matter of commonsense. Sometimes politely asking an editor to find a way to reduce the size is met with a positive response. If you decide to make such a request, do explain why having a large signature can cause problems for other editors who may find it hard to locate text in a discussion page. --Tony Sidaway 17:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Need Help

Tony Sidaway, may you please look At This Thread and forward it to ArbCom members? Despite the ArbCom ruling (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba), Andries is making questionable edits and pushing forward adding links to his and others Anti-Sathya-Sai-Baba websites. When there is a perceived violation of an ArbCom ruling, how does one file a complaint? Thank you. SSS108 19:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a matter to be handled by administrators. I'll deal with it. --Tony Sidaway 19:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. SSS108 19:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I've warned him. Please report back to me if there are further problems. --Tony Sidaway 19:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, there is some confusion whether or not the ArbCom ruling pertains to user pages. For example the re-insertion of a critical and potentially libelous site against Sathya Sai Baba on Andries user page: Reference. I see this as a potential loophole where the critial links against Sathya Sai Baba can be moved from the article page to a user page. May you kindly provide clarification about this? Thanks. SSS108 20:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's a problem with Andries saying he's affiliated with a group and giving its web page on his own user page. Users have some discretion over the contents of their user pages. --Tony Sidaway 20:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Biographies of living people

Tony, are we going to remove the links critical of George W. Bush from the article Michael Moore article because it may violate Biographies of living people? Clearly not, because people can defame anyone they want in their own article. The article Robert Priddy deals with exactly the same issue. I filed a request for mediation regarding this issue. Both Moore and Priddy have been reported by reputable source i.e. Keven Shepherd in latter case. The dispute about the external link in the article Robert Priddy preceded the arbcom case. I filed a request for mediation regarding this matter.Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/#Robert_Priddy Andries 21:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, by all means pursue your dispute to the fullest extent available, as long as you actively don't violate the arbitration ruling. --Tony Sidaway 21:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

But it will be clear that I think that in the case of the external links in the Robert Priddy, (or Basava Premanand) article removing critical links maintained by the subject in question is a ridiculously strict interpretation of the arbcom ruling. Andries 21:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It may be worth going to Requests for arbitration and starting a request for clarification on this. The arbitrators may be able to tell you what they meant more precisely. --Tony Sidaway 21:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think this should be done, because as far as I understood and still understand it, it is fine to use copies of webpages of reputable sources hosted on saiguru.net or exbaba.com as references. Please note that the website created by SSS108 for Misplaced Pages contains copies of articles taken from exbaba.com so if exbaba.com com is unreliable then necessarily SSS108's website is so too. Andries 23:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I made a request for clarification Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Sathya_Sai_Baba Sorry for causing you clerks extra work Andries 13:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but that's not a problem. I'd rather you use the dispute resolution process in this way, asking for clarification and causing a little clerical work for one or two of us, than just try to struggle with the ambiguity, which would probably end up causing a lot more work for quite a few of us. It shows a commitment to comply with the rulings and, I'm sure, improves the atmosphere by increasing the regard in which you are held by those who disagree with you, as a fair-minded and cooperative individual. Thank you. --Tony Sidaway 00:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Andries agreed to the Geocities site under mediation with BostonMA: Ref. The articles on the Geocities site are not articles originally published on Anti-Sai sites. They are newspaper articles whose publication is independent from Anti-Sai sites. Tony, thank you for your help and guidance. Sincerely, SSS108 04:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

My response on Request For Clarification: Reference. Includes recent questionable edits by Andries on the Sathya Sai Baba talk page where he made a highly questionable edit by moving media articles (which were determined to violate WP:NOT) from the Sathya Sai Baba Article to the Talk Page: Reference. This was discussed in arbitration (Reference), in which I stated that Andries was using the talk pages to promote his Anti-Sai agenda. SSS108

All the links that I moved from the main article to the talk page were published in the media i.e. reputable sources and my edit was certainly an improvement. I followed user:Pjacobi in removing the media article whose edits were reverted by user:Francis Schonken because they violated WP:RS (not quoting non-English sources. Andries 17:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I want to complain about the behavior by SSS108 who removed on-topic non-libellous comments that were no personal attacks on other editors from the Sathya Sai Baba talk page. See here I think that this removal by SSS108 was misguided and inappropriate. Andries 17:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Without going into detail, it appears to me that SSS108 is interpreting one of the remedies in the arbitration case by removing poorly sourced information from a talk page. Please add a query about this to your request for clarification, so that the arbitrators can tell you both whether or not this was what they intended. While it appears to me on the surface to be a correct interpretation, I haven't really followed the case and I'm not an arbitrator so I cannot tell you definitively what they intended. --Tony Sidaway 00:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The stated reason why SSS108 removed information from the talk page was not because he considered the information poorly sourced, but because he thought I was spamming the talk page with links critical of SSB. I can understand his suspicion, though it was unfounded. (The links did not contain any link to anti-SSB websites.) I thought and still think that I had good reason to make the comments on the talk page. If this is a one-time removal then I have little problem with it and I will not formally report it. In contrast, if SSS108 repeatedly removes information with flimsy motivations from the talk page then I will make a formal complaint about it. Andries 08:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Signature

Thank you for shortening it. I will make a smaller one since I will be participating on AN/I more often and I do not want it to bother you. --Zer0faults 01:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for being proactive on this. --Tony Sidaway 01:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: What?

Sorry, but what percisely do I have to do? --HolyRomanEmperor 10:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I assume you're responding to my arbitration clerk note about Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo. If you don't want to contribute further to that case, you don't need to do anything more (I just read your original statement). If you do have more to contribute, particularly references to relevant edits or discussions, you're welcome to go to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo/Evidence and start a section for your own evidence. Then add diffs to those edits which you think are relevant to the case. There are further instructions at the top of the page, explaining how to add evidence. --Tony Sidaway 10:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

new anti-Semitism ArbCom case

Greetings Tony Sidaway, just wanted to drop you a note of thanks for taking the initiative to request arbitration relative to this article. Hopefully the case will be adopted by the arbitration committee and remedies for all parties will be determined. Thanks again. Netscott 10:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that arbitration is necessary, but I have seen enough high profile fuss and enough worrying mutterings to suspect that we have encountered a fault line in community cohesion and it's worth seeing if something needs to be done. --Tony Sidaway 11:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I've seen about four or five editors throw around the "ownership" label relative to this (and I highly suspect there are many more). My thinking is the more folks are saying "ownership" the more a case is warranted. That said I do appreciate your hesitations. Netscott 11:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

IAR

Hi, I was asking about IAR and you were explaining it and I think my last question got lost as the thread went in a different direction. Here is my unanswered question. I thank you for your help: So everything that has a policy page is a policy. Then the "rules" are...? Essay pages? Then there's WP:3RR that says it's both policy and a rule????? Misplaced Pages has "policies" and "guidelines." Maybe guidelines are the rules. Misplaced Pages:List_of_guidelines and included in them are WP:POINT, WP:BITE, and WP:UP -- all of these are treated as policy. So WP:IAR means WP:POINT, WP:BITE, and WP:UP can be ignored if it's to make the encyclopedia better? There are also processes, which I do see the IAR applied to with WP:SNOW. ----Anomo 11:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

None of the above. --Tony Sidaway 11:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So which things are the rules? You said 3RR does not count as a rule, but Misplaced Pages:Suggestions on how to ignore all rules gives an example of ignoring it with WP:IAR. Anomo 13:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Did I say that 3RR doesn't count as a rule? If I ever did, I was wrong. I always ignore that rule. You can ignore a rule without breaking Misplaced Pages policy, you know. --Tony Sidaway 15:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

3RR is listed as policy. Which things are the ignorable rules (if it is to help wikipedia) and which things are the unignorable ones? Anomo 20:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

In cases of such confusion I find that there are no problems if I Ignore all rules. It takes a bit of getting used to, and honestly when I try to explain it I think I must sound like Yoda or Obi Wan, or that guy out of Kung Fu (TV series). But it really is nothing more than just using your common sense. It's particularly good for resolving things that don't matter (like quibbles about whether something is a rule or a policy). Misplaced Pages written policies are supposed to represent distilled commonsense, codified as written rules. If you follow your commonsense then you'll usally find that you're following policy. If you find you're not, but the encyclopedia is still improving, it usually means that the rules are wrong. So we change the rules from time to time to keep up. --Tony Sidaway 00:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that's the best way I've ever heard anyone explain IAR. --Kbdank71 02:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Stuff

I appreciate and accept your apology. Incidentally, I've been giving serious thought to quitting the project. This will make it a bit less sour if that's what I decide. --Ryan Delaney 14:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Good. I hope you'll feel comfortable about staying, too, if you decide to do that. --Tony Sidaway 16:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo problem

Sorry about my english. Before 3-6 months I have started to bring somme document for the Kosovo but I dont have time to lose with goverments propagander. This is the point. I dont know even you or burokrats can do samthing agains thate. The target is to block every information about the Kosovo subject not only the Kosovo article. Thaks for calling but I dont have time to work agains a goverment.

Sorry about my english my statment is here Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo, I holpe is not in wrong pleace.

Tung from Prishtina--Hipi Zhdripi 03:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Your English is good enough for me to understand what you mean: that you feel that English Misplaced Pages's coverage of the subject of Kosovo is full of government propaganda (I assume you mean on behalf of the government of Serbia).

Your statement is in the right place and will be read and understood by the arbitrators. Thanks again. --Tony Sidaway 03:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Thanks!! I am at last free. :) Cheers, —Khoikhoi 04:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

A rare occasion when I've been the bearer of good news to a subject of arbitration. --Tony Sidaway 04:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha... Indeed, you have a very stressful job. And then of course you probably get a lot of crap for just "being the messenger". ;-) —Khoikhoi 04:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Cent

Hello, I see you've recently edited {{cent}}. This is quite all right and I encourage you to help keep it current. But please don't forget to log your changes at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Template log. This will help us stay all on the same page -- no pun intended. Thank you. John Reid 14:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages clerks