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Bobby Henderson's name leads back to this article. The hyperlink should be removed or an article relating to his name should be created.

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Pastafarian view concerning WP entry "Religious perspectives on dinosaurs"

There is a WP article Religious perspectives on dinosaurs. It's blue, take a look, you won't regret it ;-). I have suggested on its discussion page that it should be merged to the articles of the interested religious beliefs. But given the determination of those who disrupted the relevant work on the dinosaur article to the point where it was thought this entry would be the lesser of two evils, it might be a better idea to add pastafarian views on the subject, especially because they're asking for it ("Add information about the views of other religious groups. It's particularly important that we reflect the views of non-Christian groups, where they differ from scientific consensus."). I am not familiar with the pastafarian views on dinosaurs, but I am confident there are incredibly smart things to say about it. Be bold... --Ministry of Truth 03:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Did dinosaurs eat pasta? *Dan T.* 04:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't be silly. Dinosaurs are pasta. (photo evidence) Their traces are the direct creation of His Noodly Appendage. Femto 11:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am grateful for the interesting views you, my fellow pastafarians, have submitted. Please make absolutely sure that my recent addition to the Religious perspectives on dinosaurs faithfully represents our relious beliefs on this crucial topic. Any inaccuracies when it comes to this extremely serious and important subject could have the most tragic consequences, as it might prevent the reader of this article to see the obvious superiority of our noodly faith.

I suggest we debate the topic on the Talk:Religious perspectives on dinosaurs page. That way, we may likewise benefit from the wisdom of those interested in dinosaurs, even if they have not yet been touched by his noodly appendice. Ramen. --Ministry of Truth 16:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There are only three possibilities I can guess at for your posting such a thing. I believe that no matter which of the three best describes you, there is no constructive purpose in making such posts here.

1. Assuming good faith here: if you really are a true believer in FSM, know that you are very rare. The religion was founded with the intent of a parody on so-called Intelligent Design theory. I'm not saying it's impossible anyone would ever believe it, and if it makes you happy, more power to you. But note that Misplaced Pages cannot give undue weight to the vanishingly few who see FSM as a real religion, any more than it can give undue weight to those who believe the Earth is flat.

2. If you're an FSMist in the sense that I am - ie., you get the joke and you think it's hilarious - please, don't bring the joke here. You'd be amazed how startlingly literal-minded some people here are. You will wind up doing more harm than good. You will wind up giving credence to ID, rather than improving awareness of the parody of it. I can understand wanting to play a prank on the literal-minded - after all, prankishness is the spirit in which FSM was created. I'm just asking you to do it somewhere else.

3. If you're an opponent of FSM who is attempting to insert misinformation into this article by pretending to be a true believer, please find a less destructive use for your time.

I sincerely and deeply hope that only numbers one or two may apply to you. All the best, Kasreyn 17:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful post. First of all, I'm aware of the heated debate that resulted in the creation of the page we're now having a closer look at. To give Matt Crypto, who had a significant role in the inclusion of religious perspective into a featured article, all the credit which is due, let me quote him to demonstrate why even the point of view of what may seem to be an irrelevant minority should be included:

"I don't really want to be the one to do it, but this article needs to discuss creationist views on dinosaurs for NPOV. Creationists often specifically treat the topic of dinosaurs (e.g. ), and are sufficiently numerous to comprise a non-fringe viewpoint. Above, one user argued that this was not necessary because "this page is about dinosaur science". Actually, this page is about just dinosaurs, and we have an obligation to record the major human views of them. — Matt Crypto 13:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)" Talk:Dinosaur/archive3#Creationism

The exact same argument can be made, substituting "Religious perspectives on dinosaurs" for "dinosaurs" and "Pastafarianism" for "Creationism". As the argument has prevailed and there is now such a page, I would be very grateful if you could point out how exactly you would want to argue consistently to remove the debated entry.

Whether or not including it in the first place was a good idea to begin with certainly is a valid question and applies to both discussions likewise. --Ministry of Truth 18:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The exact same argument cannot be made, because "Pastafarianism" isn't a major human view, and they are not sufficiently numerous to comprise a non-fringe viewpoint. — Matt Crypto 18:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree: Both have relevant views to express about Religious perspectives on dinosaurs. Follow your own line of argumentation over at the dinosaur thread when you were under attack by those who submitted inclusion of minority beliefs would introduce WP:NPOV#Undue weight, you made your case rather brilliantly and I won't even try to compete. --Ministry of Truth 19:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a difference between minority viewpoints and insignificant viewpoints. Roughly speaking, the amount of weight we give a viewpoint is proportional to its popularity. If you actually have read my arguments, you'll remember that I argued that creationism was sufficiently notable to merit a mention: there's millions of people with this belief. How many people, exactly, genuinely believe in this Flying Spaghetti stuff? Zero. — Matt Crypto 05:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

First let me get a thing or two out of the way: I respect your contributions in your domain of expertise, cryptography, very much. Therefore, when I recently stumbled upon, then read the whole story ultimately leading to the creation of a Misplaced Pages entry titled Religious perspectives on dinosaurs, I was at a complete loss how that could have happened in the first place and what might have motivated you to participate in such a determined way in a debate seemingly completely outside of your core interests.

Creationism, even though it is a view essentially limited to the US, certainly is significant enough to deserve to be mentioned in WP, no doubt about that. But the precedent you managed to create puts countless other, also completely unrelated entries at risk of being hijacked by <insert some religious fringe belief here> to plug their view on everything their faith somehow looks at differently than the overwhelming majority. Or, while we're at it, why shouldn't they likewise be entitled to the mention that they, for a change, don't have any diverging view to offer on a particular subject ? I'm afraid, an article being on its way to the front page might be a far more determining factor than legit encyclopedic considerations for this type of additions.

There is a very convincing case to be made that mentioning creationists in a featured article about a completely unrelated subject is a particularly flagrant violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight . But as I became aware of it once the battle was over, the one thing I certainly won't do is to immediately re-annoy the good people trying to get some serious work done on dinosaurs with a re-edition of a preposterous, traumatising conflict that has for now been settled by a bad compromise.

Instead, I simply want to make sure that all participants in this debate apply the standards they hold to be true consistently. You have proven to be both a very eloquent and intelligent young man, so I assume you understand that for now, no convincing argument has been made that would preclude the pastafarian perspective from being mentioned in the Religious perspectives on dinosaurs article. The criteria for inclusion are no longer those which would apply for the dinosaur article itself, but for the subject of the actual "Religious perspectives on..." one. Should I be mistaken, just say so and I will happily comply and explain in excruciating detail why exactly their views need to be included. --Ministry of Truth 05:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm being consistent: Flying Spaghetti Monster is not a religious perspective, because it's not a religion; it's a parody, and (I believe) not a hugely well-known one. Therefore it should not be mentioned in Religious perspectives on dinosaurs as a religious view. You are right; I don't normally get involved with sensitive topics — politics, religion etc — because 1) I don't enjoy the verbal violence and trolling that goes on, and 2) I'm not on a crusade. I got involved in dinosaur because it was a main page FA, and it seemed (to me) to be an enormous omission to utterly exclude any mention of religious views on dinosaurs, particularly when there's millions of people who have this view. FAs need to be complete. — Matt Crypto 17:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, he is correct; this is not a religion, it is a parody created for the sake of argument, and thus cannot be included. --InShaneee 19:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for the answers, I'll address all three aspects:

1. Why the Pastafarian view concerning Religious perspectives on dinosaurs needs to be included
2. Why religions created for the sake of argument are nonetheless religions
3. Why it might be a Bad Thing to go to war for an idea in a field where you lack expertise to assess relevance

1. If the criteria of inclusion for the Religious perspectives on dinosaurs were really about what for example the Big Four in the world market of religion (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism) have to say about the subject, that might be a different story. Most interestingly, their collective answer seems to be "nothing at all". For now an honest to <insert your favorite supreme being here, should you have one> title would probably read more like "Religious perspectives on dinosaurs of some fringe religious beliefs essentially limited to the US". I agree that the title would then sound about as preposterous as the very existence of the article already is.
   Now it is a perfectly fair point to say that Pastafarianism is a little different, so starting their paragraph with something like "Pastafarianism is a religion that has essentially been created to make a reductio ad absurdum argument against the teaching of Intelligent Design in US public schools." is probably a good idea to provide context. As for irrelevance, how about googles "Results 1 - 100 of about 700,000 for "Flying Spaghetti Monster" -wikipedia" ? Also feel free to argue how it is not a religion based on the criteria outlined in the letter to the various school boards .
2. Some excited guy, in 1517, in an obscure german village, nailed 95 theses to the door of a church to make an argument. - InShaneee, you wouldn't say that the protestant church does not qualify as a religion for that reason, would you ? - Good, I didn't think so neither.
3. Matt, so you started what definitely ended up being a crusade

• to make a point --> WP:POINT, sorry to do that to you, but you started ;-)
• because it was an article about to be featured
• while admittedly not knowing much about the subject ?

Again, with all due respect, do you believe it is a good idea to use your considerable rhetoric talent to disrupt an ongoing consensus for the sake of a seemingly "logic" argument completely overlooking the relevance part ? Let me give you an imperfect, but nonetheless hopefully enlightening example in your domain of expertise:
Imagine an article about a crypto product that has been in the works for quite a while and everybody, including you, is pretty happy about it. Now some otherwise perfectly nice admin, usually writing very well about the archaeopteryx and other fossils from the same period, seeing this article is on its way to the front page, joins the discussion and starts ranting about how critically important it is to include the views of, say, Steve Gibson or John Dvorak on that matter. After all they have a large audience, talk about it and a lot of people believe what they say is true, because both are as brilliant self-promoters as they're a complete fraud. Now you know all this and would probably nail to the cross the guy who suggested some fraudsters should be included in an otherwise perfectly serious article quite eloquently and that would be a deed well done. Hopefully, the archaeopteryx guy is not significantly more skilled rhetorically than you and all the others in the discussion are or things could get ugly. While the reasons for non-inclusion are different in both cases, the example might help you to understand that a certain amount of knowledge in the field you engage a controversial debate in is probably very helpful to avoid that sheer brilliance of argumentation, never mind the merits, results in deeply disturbing blunders, such as the very existence of the "Religious perspectives on dinosaurs" article. --Ministry of Truth 05:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think it needs to be rehashed any further. InShanee has already stated very explicitly what the reasons are for not including the material. You haven't successfully rebutted it that I can see. It is nonsense to compare Protestantism to FSM. Protestantism has millions of adherents around the world, people who sincerely believe in it. FSM has none that I'm aware of. This is an issue for WP:NPOV#Undue_weight.

By the way, Matt didn't "start" anything re: WP:POINT. You are the one editing against the consensus, not him. Cheers, Kasreyn 13:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why the move?

I can't see any reason for moving this article to "Flying Spaghetti Monster parody". A longer title is used when there is a disambig, but it's absolutely not necessary in this case. bogdan 19:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm... Maybe this is not a bad idea afterall. I'm now off to move Florida to Florida state and George Washington to George Washington president. ;-) bogdan 19:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it back. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to add "parordy" to the end of it. Jeez, it wasn't even raised in the talk page. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 19:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

To take it further, I've reverted all of Ed Poor's four-in-a-row edits. He completely gutted the article of a lot of text that had a lot of relevance to the topic at hand. I don't know why. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 19:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You might find Talk:Intelligent Design or various associated pages helpful. Ed Poor has a history of disruptive edits and edit warring in many articles related to creationism or evolution, from what I've seen. He has claimed that he feels Misplaced Pages is displaying bias against creationism and "Intelligent Design". Kasreyn 19:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Ugggh. :/ -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 19:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not spread the rumor that I "have a history of disruptive edits". That is tantamount to a personal attack.

Let's talk about the article instead of changing the subject to ad hominem attacks.

Which relevant text did I remove? --Uncle Ed 19:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I just covered this on your usertalk. You didn't remove text as I thought, but moved it around in a very awkward manner. Your title change was also completely uncalled for, and seems to be some way of making it immediately noticable that the FSM is a parody. Not that that's needed at all, since it says it right in the bloody article. Like bogdan said, George Washington president sounds pretty dumb. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 20:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I have said nothing about you, the person, Ed, merely my impression of your editing habits here at Misplaced Pages. If you consult WP:NPA, you will find that it specifically requests users to focus their comments on others' contributions rather than each other. That is precisely what I did. Cordially, Kasreyn 20:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the spirit of that clause is to focus on what's specifically wrong about particular edits, not make blanket statements. — Laura Scudder ☎ 20:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

References in Popular Culture?

Maybe put up a section for references to the FSM in popular culture? Television, media, etc? It appears as a drawing, posted on a wall in the back of the IT room on the television show The IT Crowd --Fitly 19:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is Bobby Henderson?

Hi, just came across this article and can find no clue as to who Bobby Henderson is. It should be stated in the first paragraph, i.e. is he a scientist? biology teacher? --Downwards 07:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

All I know about him is the wicked funny idea he had. I seem to recall hearing he was a student in some science or other. That's all I know. Kasreyn 21:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Unemployed computer scientist or some such. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

AABattery

Once ANY person can find one sentence where Bobby says it's a parody religion, then perhaps we can change it back. Until then, this religion is actually trying to get itself to be an official one, so dismissing it as parody is ignorant and subjectively centered. I, for one, am indeed a Pastafarian, whether you like it or not. My edit is much more factual than others, as the previous article only represts a non-Pastafarian's views, which, obviously, are not Wiki's standard. It is a religion, albeit not an official one. If it is ruled to stay described as a parody, then I shall have to be forced to edit all other religion pages, dissmissing it a equally false. It's one or the other, and if you can't see that, then I'm sorry to say, but you're very, very ignorant. -AAbattery 19:31 EST, 7/1/06

"Please don not pretend FSM is a serious religion?" I am in every way abiding by that, as I do not pretend, I believe...and I used to think ignorance was not Wiki's strong point. This certainly proves me wrong. That is probably THE most offending thing I have ever heard in my entire life. Well, no, second most...my school actually banned me from even speaking about it as a serious religion. AAbattery 19:45, 1 July 2006

See the FSM FAQ (http://www.venganza.org/faq.htm), specifically question four. Bobby Henderson states he has a problem with accepting supernatural explanations.

Right, now we can reset the timer, and wait for the next person to exclaim their love for the FSM by undermining everything it stands for. -- Ec5618 23:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I have already raised this issue after talking with User:Ministryoftruth, who is espousing the same nonsense. Per Undue weight, the opinions of "real" FSM believers are in a decided minority compared to those who recognize its satirical intent. If we had any reliably sourced information that such a thing as a "true believer" in FSM actually existed, I'd say it would be worth noting with a single, short sentence. Otherwise, the article stays as it is. Kasreyn 22:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It is a parody, whether by truth or by majority acceptance. If Bobby Henderson were to seriously believe FSM is a real religion, then he would be contradicting himself when he says that he has problems with supernatural explanations for things. Please, read further into things than the first layer. Vancar 13:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources Describing FSM as a Parody or Satire

Just for you, AABattery.

• NY Times
• USA Today
• Scientific American
• The Oregon News-Review
• The Daily Telegraph
• The Kansas City Star
• The Orlando Weekly

Some choice bits:

"Henderson said he's merely using the time-honored tradition of satire to illustrate his personal views. ... 'Originally it was just a letter, and it was sort of a joke,' Henderson said in a telephone interview Monday."

The Register-Guard, Eugene, OR

"'It was actually a very clever satire, really getting at the heart of the argument why creationism probably should not be taught as a science,' Rod Henderson said of his son's letter."

and

"'I am not too worried about the angry religious people who e-mail me,' Henderson said. 'Ninety-nine-point-nine percent of religious people are not nuts, and most of them understand that the FSM project is not an attack on religion, only on dogma.'"

The Oregon News-Review

"...Bobby Henderson’s satirical Web page (www.venganza.org)..."

and

"'I think it’s weird that it’s still going on,' Henderson told me in a phone interview."

and

"Henderson thought, if Kansas was open to teaching nonscientific theories, then why not his: that the world was created by the 'noodly appendage' of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. So to mock the decision, he asked the Kansas board to also teach his theory." (emphasis mine)

The Kansas City Star

Other editors, feel free to add more sources to this section as you find them. Kasreyn 23:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Pirates

I have deleted the entire section on pirates, as it only attracts more and more cruft as time goes on. I believe this sentence from the Beliefs section tells us all we need to know about how pirates are linked to the FSM:

"Global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct consequence of the decline in numbers of pirates since the 19th century."

Shoehorn 19:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I added it back in. I don't think such a large section should be removed without a consensus of editors.--8bitJake 19:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree it's a bit long, considering the actual beliefs of Pastafarianism are largely irrelevant. A brief mention of the Pastafarianism interest in pirates is justified, but little more. -- Ec5618 21:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to wait for consensus on this issue. My position is that this entire section is cruft which places undue emphasis on the subject simply for the sake of amusement. Shoehorn 10:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it can certainly stand to be trimmed, but I'd say it's at least noteworthy that Henderson not only attacks Intelligent Design's conceptual basis, but he also attacks some of the specific kinds of pseudoscience they use (such as misleading graphs and post hoc arguments). Ie., FSM not only mirrors and parodies the belief system of ID, but also its methods. Kasreyn 21:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we get that idea in the first paragraph of the article. Only a very broad presentation of how FSM accomplishes this is necessary. Shoehorn 05:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Trimmed a little. I disagree. The article would be incomplete without details on specific absurdities and FSM's ways of logic attacks. Femto 12:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Still 99% cruft. The second paragraph repeats the second bullet under "beliefs". The graph is cruft. The third paragraph has an informal tone and adresses a crufty subject, the aforementioned graph. The last paragraph is the cruftiest of all. And, since the first paragraph is just an introduction to the other three crufty paragraphs, it is superfluous, as the connection between pirates and the FSM is already presented in the section on beliefs. Shoehorn 22:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, removed this redundancy. — Of course it's cruft. Not 99%, the whole freaking religion is 100% cruft. All religions are cruft, that's the whole point of FSM, isn't it? The graph illustrates a central belief of this religion. You can't describe the cruft without presenting details on the cruft, and I think the article is well within Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic standards as it is now. Femto 12:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Gotta agree with Femto. We're talking about a Flying Spaghetti Monster. 67.102.65.179 23:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Statistics

Re this edit: It does not necessarily follow from the correlation that if piracy goes up there must be 100% probability for global warming to go down. The recent increase in piracy is obviously a statistical fluke which slightly reduces the significance of the earlier data, but by no means invalidates the theory. Have faith and ignore the anomalous data, it's done all the time. Femto 11:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Look, I know that, and Henderson knows that! Henderson is attempting to mock the ID proponents' use of the correlation-causation fallacy by introducing a correlation-causation fallacy into FSM. I don't care anything about recent flukes, either upwards or downwards, because when compared against the 350-odd years of history we're talking about, they're meaningless. The reason I reverted was because the actual claim removed - that there is an inverse correlation between quantity of pirates and global temperature - IS true. There is such a correlation; it's just that, contrary to FSM's joking "dogma", it is a meaningless correlation, illustrating similar meaningless correlations in ID "science".

Perhaps you feel it could be said in a better way. But let's not confuse the topic here. If we're going to explain how FSM's "pirate correlation" gag works, so that readers can understand exactly what, in ID, is being lampooned, we need to be clear about what a correlation is. Cheers, Kasreyn 11:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems we're talking past each other. I was more referring to Geni's edit than to yours and tried to expand on why it only made sense to revert. Femto 12:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ohh... OK, my mistake! ^_^; Kasreyn 21:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

- Nobody's denying that piracy currently goes up again, but that's completely beside the point. It reduces the confidence in the hypothesis, but only a little. On the scale of the whole data set, it is still statistically perfectly valid to claim that if piracy drops, global warming rises. There indeed is a statistically significant correlation, regardless of recent datapoints that may not fit the theory. Femto 17:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is Henderson's source for that data? I mean 35000 pirates is an awful lot for 1820. Letters of marque were dieing out and the golden age of piracy was long gone. 35000 men is something like 180 Sixth-rate frigates which would have been very large for a pirate vessel. 35000 men is rather more than the british had at the Battle of Trafalgar. It's enough to equip ~40 first rate ships of the line. I'm not sure even Britian had 40 first rates.Geni 21:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Henderson probably fabricated the numbers. FSM is a parody, after all, and the pirates graph is supposed to illustrate misleading fallacies... given that we know Henderson is lying/joking about so many things, it's probably safe to assume he didn't bother to do any real research on historical data of numbers of pirates over time. Still, numbers of pirates have at least gone down, which is enough to illustrate the fallacy. Kasreyn 22:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Your evidence that they have gone down within that graph is? Even by 1820 Britian had pretty good control of the seas. The statement is "Yet, there is indeed a statistically significant inverse correlation between global warming and number of pirates". It either needs evidences or it needs to be removed. remeber The first half of 2003 was the worst 6-month period on record. Lloyd's has records dateing back to 1838.Geni 23:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the real number of 'friendly pirates of true faith' doesn't necessarily have to match our historically 'biased' data about buccaneering. How the statistics get mangled with half-truths is a central point though, instead of removing the sentence, how about relativizing it with a disclaimer "in the provided data set" or something like that? Femto 14:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

fine as long as it stops claiming there is an actual proven correlation between the real world numbers.Geni 19:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It isn't a proven correlation, it is his belief. Are you claiming that religions need to be based on scientifically proven facts?--24.117.140.103 18:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

See the template at the top of this page. --InShaneee 22:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Appearence of FSM

Hey guys, i've added a line (the fsm appears in a new york dolls video), but this is my first try in eglish, so hopfully sombody can correct the grammar (i dont think ist that correct :) ). im frank_n_stein in the german wikipedia, so feel free to contact me!

greeting --217.15.4.248 06:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

myspace

why delete the myspace stuff? I'm replacing. Mccready 13:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

A virus? Just another Flash worm? Was the vulnerability internal to myspace, or were website visitors infected? Why "in order to promote", if the origins are unknown? It's unsourced, rather incoherent information with no way to check notability. Femto 14:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No dispute it happened? I've rewritten and sourced. Hope that's OK. Mccready 14:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe my spaceworm has nothing to do with the real FSM. --Weaponofmd 05:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Move?

Should this article be moved to "Pastafarianism"? And then have a differnet article on the Flying Spaghetti monster?

Under what logic? They seem closely related enough that they should be in the same topic. JoshuaZ 08:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say it is more appropriate to have the article here. Most people are more likely to have heard about the FSM than about the joking name for the religion focused on worshipping said FSM. Additionally, the most important aspect of the article is the farcical notion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster, rather than the pasta joke.

Further, you seem to be suggesting the splitting of the article in two: FSM and Pastafarianism. Refer to WP:NOTABILITY; I would feel that this subject isn't notable enough to merit two articles. Better to include all the information in one. Cheers, Kasreyn 22:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Important new sighting?

I added a link to what might be an important new FSM sighting, but it was promptly removed, I know not why. I notice that the article currently contains a link to a sighting in Hamburg, for instance. I'm not saying I necessarily believe that this is an FSM manifestation, but you would have to admit that the resemblance is quite uncanny. Please discuss before removing the link again. Laurence Boyce 13:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, please don't call other editors vandals. Secondly, the Hamburg link states that there was a 'purported video of FSM', whereas your link stated that there was a 'possible manifestation of the Flying Spaghetti Monster', suggesting that the FSM may manifest itself. Thirdly, the link you provided doesn't suggest that the image is of the FSM, which makes the link description, and the inclusion of the link into this article original research, which is prohibitied. If an outside source suggests the image is of the FSM, it is no longer original research, though the link will need to point to that source. Removing the link. -- Ec5618 13:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh dear, I don't think I called anyone a vandal. You do sound like a bit of a dick though. Laurence Boyce 14:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Your edit summary read, in full "rvv - see talk". Rvv is Misplaced Pages shorthand for Revert vandalism. Perhaps I was wrong in assuming that you knew what you were saying. I realise that you may have picked it up somewhere without realising the meaning behind it.

Nevertheless, calling me a dick falls under Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy, which is also the basis for my suggestion that you refrain from calling others vandals. It is a blockable offense. Please try to remain civil. -- Ec5618 14:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh I see. No, I thought "rvv" meant revert the reversion, a bit like C++ or something. I'm sorry. Laurence Boyce 09:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. He does sound like a dick. This same image is on Venganza.org. The Pastafarians seem to agree with him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reedbraden (talk • contribs)

Please don't call other editors names. It serves no purpose. -- Ec5618 01:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the best sighting of the FSM ever, we mock your bits of toast with Mary on! HA HA HA!Hypnosadist 02:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

8 commandments?

Do we have a WP:RS source for them? Even if we do have one, I'm not sure they should be included since they are a bit of a tacked on after thought that wasn't part of the original joke. JoshuaZ 01:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason this article was split into this article and an article on the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is that this article was a little long. If we add content from the other article back into this one, that really defeats the purpose.

And, actually, I can't find a credible source for the Eight .. They are quoted on a number of fora, but I can't seem to be able to find a Venganza-related source. -- Ec5618 01:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It is in the Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reedbraden (talk • contribs)

Good. All that leaves is the other points raised above. Is this content relevant in this article, when the gospel is linked to at the top of the section? -- Ec5618 01:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The title of the section says "The Eight 'I'd Rather You Didn'ts'", so why would you not include them? Reed Braden 02:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Because they take up a lot of space in the article, while being a minor part of FSM. (The list takes up about a third of the space of the entire body of the article.) Indeed, this list was created after the original letter to the Kansas School Board, which hints at its importance. I'm not saying it is irrelevant, per se, but it is much more relevant in the context of the gospel article. -- Ec5618 02:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

How is it not important? To those who actually believe in the FSM, this is some of the most relevant and meaningful text in all of Pastafarianism. I insist that it be left in.Reed Braden 02:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not a real religion, posting it would be copyright infringement, period. Deal with it. --InShaneee 02:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Islam is not a real religion. Posting any verse of the Koran..... see? It's just as rediculous. You cannot belittle one religion just because you don't believe it's real. Not a valid point! Reed Braden 02:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It may be beneficial for you to read the third "I'd Really Rather You Didn't." Reed Braden 02:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The argument isn't that since FSM is not a religion, posting the 'commandments' would be copyright infringement. The argument is that posting copyrighted material, such as pagelong quotes from books, constitutes copyright infringment. Also, this isn't about what we feel about FSM. It is about what FSM was intended to be. -- Ec5618 02:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a real religion to those who practice it. Plus, no one is claiming it as their own text. It is clearly just an informative quote from a "religious" book. If I claimed it to be my own original work, it WOULD be plagiarism... however, I have made no such claim. Reed Braden 02:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I just posted the name of the Author and the name of the book. If it's good enough for an MLA-format thesis paper, it's good enough for Misplaced Pages. Leave it alone. Reed Braden 02:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Duplicating content is unnacceptable. It's on the Gospel page, people can follow the link there. --InShaneee 17:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Well then, the content had to be duplicated from the book in the first place to make it onto the Gospel page. It's absolutely INSANE to title a section "The Eight Commandments" and not put those commandments there! It makes more since to have the content all grouped there. It's more convenient. Why do you care so much about leaving it out? Does it offend you in some way? Reed Braden 21:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I have merged the two sections about the Gospel. -- Ec5618 21:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I found written consent for not-for-profit duplication of the work. http://www.venganza.org/faq.htm Scroll down to number 11: "In general, it is OK with me if you use the FSM images/content as long as they are in no way for profit. I.e., printing out FSM stickers for your own use would be OK, but selling them would not be. Giving them away would be fine in most cases."

That's good. That means the article on the Gospel is not currently in violation of copyright, and that this article wasn't in the past. Still, a reference to this consent seems more relevant in the article on the Gospel. Perhaps you should bring it up there. -- Ec5618 22:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it really a parody?

There is a label on the page, "From time to time, editors argue that FSM is a real religion. This has been suggested several times, and consensus has always been to call FSM a parody. If you disagree, please read the archives and use this Talk page, before editing the article." Who is to say what is a religion and what isn't? Sure, it started as a parody, but now there are real followers who choose to belive in a loving pasta monster rather than a scornful God. Who are you to tell them they are wrong? Also, if the fact it was started as a joke means it's not "real," what about the argument that Christianity and Judaism was started as a fairy tale, not to be taken seriously. Some people believe that, so should we treat other mainstream religions as theoretical? The true question is, what makes a religion true? Pastafarianism has a large number of people who seriously believe in this alternate God, does that not make it a real religion? Reed Braden 02:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This point has been discussed numerous times. You can find these discussions throughout the archives. Please read them before rehashing old points. "consensus has always been to call FSM a parody". -- Ec5618 02:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Right... but have these people actually met whomever God is? Have they died, shook hands (or noodles) with God, and returned to the mortal plane? I think it deserves re-discussion rather than a ham-handed sorting into the 'fallacy bin'. Reed Braden 02:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

What? Which people? What mortal plane? What fallacy bin? -- Ec5618 02:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

There are people, like it or not, who choose to believe this. It is a much nicer approach to religion to them. The mortal plane generally means Earth and its surroundings (i.e. not heaven, not hell). I was making a point that the people arguing this have never met the real God, so they can't be allowed to make that distinction for other people. The 'fallacy bin' was proverbial to insinuate that someone was sorting religions into True and False, and the False ones went into a bin marked Fallacy. Look it up in the dictionary if it confuses you. It was a metaphor to make a point. Reed Braden 02:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make this a religion, end of story. --InShaneee 02:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Pastafarianism is a parody of religion. It was created to show that it makes no sense to suggest that children should be thought all viewspoints on any issue, as creating a 'valid' viewpoint is not difficult to do. Pastafarianism was created to satirise intelligent design, and the abandonment of logic (as per the inverse relationship between temperature and number of pirates; a 'logical' relationship). Please do not reduce FSM, by claiming that it is a true god. -- Ec5618 02:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that I was a true Pastafarian. I KNOW a few Pastafarians. To them, their religion is just as real as yours. The definition of a religion is mainly anything that has followers that consider it a religion. Pastafarianism is just as real as any other religion. And you can't tell me that it was created to e a parody, so it must always remain a parody. The truth is, when it went overboard and people began to truly worship FSM, it BECAME a true religion. It became the essence of what it originally mocked, yet that doesn't stop it from being true.

Ask those people how they feel about the fact that their messiah openly admits to making the FSM up. How they feel about the fact that, faith of not, there was no "Captain Mosey, a pirate and the FSM equivalent of Moses". And again, please read the archives. -- Ec5618 02:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The argument here is not whether they are right or wrong, the fact is that some regard this as religion and follow it as such. Therefore, it is - by definition - a real religion. Reed Braden 02:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Read the archives. -- Ec5618 02:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

By the definition of "religion" - "A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.", it is. Some people believe this, so it is a real religion to them... whether the founder says it is or it isn't. Reed Braden 02:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

By that logic, I could ask you to prove these people believe in the FSM. How do these followers feel about their holy scripture being filled with provable lies? Now, will you please read the archives? This discussion serves no purpose. Unless you have new information, there is no point in rehashing these points. Again. And again. -- Ec5618 02:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You care too much about this. I'm merely sticking up for the rights of my friends who believe in this, and all you are doing is berading them.Reed Braden 21:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You mean like, say, the Christian Bible, and every single other holy book? Yeah. That it is false is irrelevant, but I have trouble believing people are actually this guillible. 129.59.52.135 02:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

FSM can be any of the following in any combination in the minds of followers; a parody of religion and religious "thinking", a real religion (a catma of Discordianism), a real religion (a dogma), a legal protest against the separation against church and state, a legal protest against the whole concept of ID and more.Hope that helps.Hypnosadist 02:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Added a section

I forgot to put an edit summary, but I moved one statement from history about the New York Dolls to a new Section "FSM in Pop Culture" and added a few instances of Pop Culture FSM. All the info was pulled off the official site which has already been referenced several times, so it would have been overkill to reference them all. Also, the Playboy article may need a reference, but I have no way of getting my hands on a Jan. '06 Playboy for reference info. Reed Braden 20:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice. It's an obvious section this article was lacking. You're right about needing references, thuogh. Still, nice. -- Ec5618 21:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Prove/Disprove

In this edit, I draw a distinction between "proving the absurdity" of ID, and "disproving" ID. I'd like to explain in slightly greater detail than is possible in an edit summary.

ID cannot be disproven. This is one of the major reasons why ID is not a scientific theory; falsifiability is a requirement for a theory to be scientific, and ID cannot be falsified because it cannot be tested. From what I've read of his writings, Henderson seems to understand this quite well.

Therefore it's silly to say he was attempting to "disprove" ID; Henderson seems to be perfectly aware that ID cannot be disproven. Rather, he is attempting to mock it by creating a reductio ad absurdum argument: he has created an equally-unfalsifiable, equally-unscientific theory about a farcical designer, to illustrate the unscientific nature of ID. I hope this explains things a bit better. Kasreyn 19:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you completely on this point Kasreyn.Hypnosadist 02:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Make that three, well explained. Femto 12:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

reductio ad absurdum argument

This is not a "reductio ad absurdum argument against the teaching of Intelligent Design". A parody or farcical representation of a deity does nothing to undermine the foundations of belief for those who are followers. It only serves to highlight the contempt which the "Pastafarians" have for all forms of religion.172.143.182.113 12:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry 172 but it is a "reductio ad absurdum argument against the teaching of Intelligent Design", its a simple substitution, an arguement that is reasonable (to you) if you say an unseen and unprovable force called God does it, but a "farcical representation of a deity" such as FSM which is equally as unseen and unprovable (either way) is not reasonable. That is "thinking" i do have contempt for, you are quite right!Hypnosadist 17:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. My favorite saying about atheism is instructive: On being asked by a theist why he did not believe in god (specifically the Christian god), Stephen Roberts replied:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Somehow, I doubt either our anonymous colleague or the Kansas State Board of Education have an answer to Roberts' challenge. Kasreyn 01:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice reframe there Kas and Roberts'.Hypnosadist 01:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.  :) Kasreyn 00:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

OK so lets looks at the concept of a reductio ad absurdum argument. Misplaced Pages's own article on it gives us the following structures:

   A — All beliefs are of equal validity and cannot be denied.
   B — If that's the case, then C is correct in his belief, even though C believes something that is considered to be wrong by most people, such as that the Earth is flat.
   A — True.
   B — Then some beliefs can be denied.

   A — You should respect C's belief, for all beliefs are of equal validity and cannot be denied.
   B —  1. I deny that belief of yours and believe it to be invalid.
      2. According to your statement, this belief of mine (1) is valid, like all other beliefs.
      3. However, your statement also contradicts and invalidates mine, being the exact opposite of it.
      4. The conclusions of 2 and 3 are incompatible and contradictory, so your statement is logically absurd.

   Mother — Why did you start smoking?
   Son — All my friends were doing it.
   Mother — You're saying that if all your friends jumped off a cliff, you would do that too?

   A — I don't think the police should arrest teenagers for soft drug possession.
   B — So, you are basically arguing the police should not enforce the law and we should live in a society of violent chaos. 

So what we have is:

1 - I believe A. 2 - If you believe A, you must believe B 3 - B is absurd 4 - Therefore A is absurd

So in the case of FSM we have:

Theist: I believe God created the universe Pastafarian: But God is an unfalsifiable, absurd concept. My fictional deity is eqully plasible as your "respectable" one, look how silly creationism looks now!

This is an argument of the form:

1 - You believe A 2 - B is kinda like A 3 - B is absurd 4 - Therefore A is absurd.

This is NOT a reductio ad absurdum argument.

I am more than willing to accept that belief in God is an entirely subjective thing. It is dependent upon ones own experience of such things.

On the statement: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." I would have to disagree. I am both a scientist and a Christian. Most people, of all belief sets, suffer from catatrosphic scepticism when anything is outwith their particular comfort zone. This is especialy true of scientists. It is a rare thing indeed that someone will, upon investigation of a subject, end up believing exactly the opposite of what he did at the begining. I contend that the reason I follow Christ, and reject other world religions is completely different to the atheist. I follow Jesus because of REVELATION, and likewise I reject the others because I have witnessed the truth firsthand. The atheist rejects religion because it steps outside of the his confort zone (the immediately provable). The conecpt followed by the atheist in terms of logic is also flawed. It assumes that one can argue from the facts toward the truth. This is not true in the case of God. He is the author of truth, one cannot argue to Him but one can argue from him. In weighing this argument please bear in mind that I may have an additional piece of information compared to yourselves. I know what the interior experience of day to day life as a Christian is like. I know what it is to interact with God on a personal level. It is the inside of the relationship that contains the proof you seek. Unfortunatly you don't get it unless you take that first step entirely in faith.

PS I'm not from Kansas. 172.200.181.36 09:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Simple answer to this, Prove to me that GOD is real and or FSM is un-real. You Can't as they are equally unprovable, therefore God and FSM are equal concepts as you can't differenciate between them.

So given that we have: 1 - You believe God created the universe in an unscientific way 2 - FSM's creation myth is inseperable from using logic/science GOD's (Fundie Christianity) creation myth 3 - FSM's creation myth is absurd 4 - Therefore GOD's creation myth is absurd. Simple!Hypnosadist 13:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

So am I to take it that the official position of the Misplaced Pages is that Christianity (and indeed any other religion) is absurd? All I was asking was for the Reductio Ad Absurdum claim to be removed. The line of defense you seem to have taken is one of attempting to prove that religion is indeed absurd, rather than the simpler one of attempting to justify describing it as an argument of the Reductio Ad Absurdum structure. I still assert that one cannot insert whatever premise one pleases into anothers argument and then claim it is an effective counter-argument. God and the FSM are easily distinguishable by the process of logic by comparing their "publicity material". Whether they exist is another matter, but they are most definately two different things for the simple reason that they are described in different ways. Saying God and the FSM are the same is like saying Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster are the same. The world of "unproven entities" is not a homogenous mass where one thing cannot be told from another. All I am interested in here is the claim about what kind of argument the FSM represents. 172.142.76.109 15:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

First i'd like to say that i am not "the official position of the Misplaced Pages", what wikipedia is is defined by its policies such as WP:NPA or WP:VER. Second i misunderstood your logical attack on FSM as a reductio ad absurdum argument, and hence went after the wrong absurdity. OK second times the charm,

   Mother — Why did you start smoking?
   Son — All my friends were doing it.
   Mother — You're saying that if all your friends jumped off a cliff, you would do that too?

OK we agree this a reductio ad absurdum argument with the jumping of the cliff as the absurdism? So the FSM arguement is;

Hypnosadist - Why do you believe God created the universe (in a way that contradicts all scientific knowledge)?

YOU - Because this book (The Bible) told me.

Hypnosadist - You're saying that if i give you a book (The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) which says some spaggetti with meat balls for eyes created the universe (in a way that contradicts all scientific knowledge), you would believe that?

Ok hope that helps, FSM is not an argument against the existance of God, just illogical creationism.Hypnosadist 17:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the creation account of the FSM could be taught in classrooms alongside the accounts of Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, and then they could all be weighed appropriately against the evidence? Kids dont get nearly enought training in logical analysis these days anyway, be good for em! Its the scientific communities attempts to actively supress a field of study that irks me. 172.207.20.238 17:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC) BTW - Why was this reply deleted by InShaneee?? I'm trying to have a civilised discussion here.

InShaneee please do not remove posts if they do not contain personal attacks!Hypnosadist 21:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk pages are to be used for discussion of the article in question only. --InShaneee 21:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes that was what we are doing, one or two off topic posts happen now and again and can be edited out of Archives but in an ongoing discusion of an reductio ad absurdum argument i thought it was rude. If you want to deal with a repeated poster of off topic chat then try User:Striver, as he posts his conspiracy theories all over the terrorism related articles and talk pages.Hypnosadist 22:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)