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Revision as of 23:47, 30 March 2016 edit72.229.160.175 (talk) →Anti-Zionist← Previous edit Revision as of 23:20, 21 December 2016 edit undoInternetArchiveBot (talk | contribs)Bots, Pending changes reviewers5,383,122 edits Notification of altered sources needing review #IABot (v1.2.7.1)Next edit →
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:: As I said above, I see no contradiction, practically or theoretically between the two. ] (]) 06:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC) :: As I said above, I see no contradiction, practically or theoretically between the two. ] (]) 06:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
:::This letter might help shed some light on the matter - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33425&pgnum=14 - I think its pretty clear from reading it (especially the second to last paragraph) that he was strongly opposed to a government which does not adhere to Torah law... So does that make him an "anti-Zionist?" ] (]) 23:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC) :::This letter might help shed some light on the matter - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33425&pgnum=14 - I think its pretty clear from reading it (especially the second to last paragraph) that he was strongly opposed to a government which does not adhere to Torah law... So does that make him an "anti-Zionist?" ] (]) 23:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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Edits and restoring previous version.

I've restored some information and undone a few of IZAK's edits of March 2013 which make no sense and had no consensus. If anybody wants to make major changes to the structure of a controversial article they should seek consensus first and that way we can avoid a lot of the wars that went on here in the past.--C Steffen 21:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

Position on territorial compromise

I've removed the statement added by Yonoson3 claiming that Ovadia Yosef 'concurred with Shach's opinion' on this issue since the sources provided don't even mention Shach so its pure wp:synth. Please don't put back any info that isn't properly sourced and really, PLEASE don't fabricate sources!--C Steffen 02:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

Ideologue and Zealot

These people are NOT described in their Misplaced Pages summaries as ideologues and zealots: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Hassan Nasrallah, Osama Bin Laden, Louis Farrakhan.

Apparently, these biased, hateful words are reserved by Jewish Misplaced Pages editors to use against learned rabbis only. I removed them and they were replaced. I removed them again. This is not the encyclopedia style that is supposed to be maintained here! MosheEmes (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, the editor who replaced those words claimed that they were "sourced" (from a Haaretz article, which is a newspaper generally unsympathetic to Haredim). I can't find the original online but I reworded it to sound more neutral and kept the source reference. I see no problem with that. MosheEmes (talk) 00:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right, MosheEmes. WP:LABEL, part of the Manual of Style, says that "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option." If it is necessary to use the words "ideologue" and "zealot"—and I don't believe it is—we should say something like "Haaretz described Shach as an ideologue and zealot". — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 03:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. I think this is another case of censoring Misplaced Pages (the first being when Shlomo Sand was not called "controversial", despite multiple reliable sources saying precisely that). The strange thing is that some editors prefer removing factually correct, neutrally worded, relevant and reliably sourced information from articles, and there is no outcry. Well, at least I want to register my strong disagreement with this approach. I think the words "zealot" and "ideologue" must stay. Debresser (talk) 05:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
To counter the argument as though the text should use a qualifier like "has been described as". First of all, I can live with that, by way of compromise. But actually, this is not necessary, according to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. If the source is reliable, then on Misplaced Pages we do not have to use such qualifiers. The opposite would lead to ridiculous situations, where every statement would need to be qualified in such a way. Debresser (talk) 05:14, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I'd also ask MosheEmes to not compare the rabbi to terrorists, as that makes the argument emotional instead of rationale.
Another form of compromise I could live with is have a more moderate sentence in the lead, and move the present sentence to the Political life section. Debresser (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
Debresser, the sentence in question was lifted word-for-word from the Haaretz article. As I see it, we have three choices: (a) set it off in quotation marks and attribute it, (b) remove it as a copyright violation, or (c) paraphrase it. Until we decide, I've been bold and taken course (a). — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 21:34, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I like Malik's solution. I also think it's an exaggeration to compare this to the Sand case. I would not have made a fuss if the intro simply said Rabbi Shach was controversial. He was. "Ideologue" may be accurate but it has a negative connotation and the same could be said about secular leaders like Golda Meir. Just it won't be said because more people like her. So she's described positively as "strong-willed and straight-talking". "Zealot" is even worse, as if he's going around fomenting revolution or something. MosheEmes (talk) 10:18, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that since it is a direct quotation, it must be ascribed to its source, per Misplaced Pages:Quotations. I repeat my proposal to move this sentence to the Political life section, especially since it is too specific now for the lead. Debresser (talk) 19:11, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
I implemented Debresser's proposal and inserted the sentence where it seemed to make sense in the flow of the political life section. MosheEmes (talk) 01:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Anti-Zionist

Regarding the recent edit war as to whether he was anti-Zionist. I see no reason to say that the fact he was involved in Israeli politics means he can not be anti-Zionist at the same time. Debresser (talk) 00:11, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

He was ambivalent. It's one thing to partake, but to actively promote a party, form a party, proclaim a halachic decision that you must vote, that's practically not anti. Anti would be like Brisk, who don't do those things. Sir Joseph 02:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
As I said above, I see no contradiction, practically or theoretically between the two. Debresser (talk) 06:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
This letter might help shed some light on the matter - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33425&pgnum=14 - I think its pretty clear from reading it (especially the second to last paragraph) that he was strongly opposed to a government which does not adhere to Torah law... So does that make him an "anti-Zionist?" 72.229.160.175 (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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