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Archives

Talk:Terry Goodkind/Archive 1

Note to new readers

This page changes very frequently, and it is difficult to read chronologically. Make sure to look through the archive as well to get a sense of whole page. Personally I have found the easiest way to keep up to date on changes is to use the compare versions feature (duh!) but you may want to go back to mid-July to get a sense of the changes and issues of the page. WLU 12:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

Does anyone have a good source for the nubmer of books sold by Terry Goodkind? Options include: http://www.prophets-inc.com/news/ or http://www.scglit.com/press.htm or http://www.prophets-inc.com/the_author/ 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mystar thinks that the figure should be 20 million based on figures from TG, I would like a figure that is justified more independently verified. I've checked the above links, and I can't find any reference to the 20 million figure. Mystar, can you provide a link to the 20 figure, or instructions on how to reach it? WLU 02:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest using the exact TOR figure and simply making a notation that the number does not include many foriegn sales and then citing it. Sound reasonable? NeoFreak 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me!Mystar 04:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Then unless any other editors have a issue with it I think we can implement that change post mediation? NeoFreak 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem - checked the citation and it doesn't link to TOR, it links to TG's page. How about changing the text to say "According to the author's website". I feel like I'm on a treadmill. WLU 16:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The figures are not from TOR's website, they are from TG's. The best way to represent this is through stating it is from his website. It is not Tor's figures, it's TG's. Writing this in the page accurately represents the source. Consensus was reached on the TOR figure, but the figure is not from TOR, it's from TG. If you've got links to TOR's figures, provide them, otherwise it is a lie to say they come from TOR. WLU 02:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer if we could cite TOR because it looks bad if we're constantly referencing TG's website. As it is now I think WLU is right but I really think it would benefit the article if we could get numbers from TOR. Can we? NeoFreak 05:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

SO what? just because you don't like a thing doesn't mean it isn't a fact. It is factual and you know it. you may wish to deny it but that is illrelivent. It was agreed upon and that is good enough for me. DO we need to go back to citing Galen's web site? that creditable and I'll be more than happy to include that figure... Mystar

I don't understand why you're getting all upset. I want to include the statement but it would be alot easier if we could directly cite TOR and not just the author's website. I don't doubt it's a legit statement but encyclopedias and I have diffrent standards. NeoFreak 07:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

TOR may say 20 million to TG, that may be a fact, but it is an unverifiable fact, making it essentially useless for this entry. I'm not denying that he sold 20 million, I'm saying that it should be referenced as coming from TG rather than TOR. There are four options - we can take it out completely. We can leave it as is, saying it is the author's site. We can use the SCG link - that's to his agent's site. I e-mailed Galen (his agent), he said that the 50 million is a mis-print, then gave an estimate of 20 million. But it's an e-mail, I'm not giving up my e-mail address, and there's no real justification for using it since he made it clear it's a guess and therefore unverifiable. Or we can use one of the two links above that essentially link to TG sites, one of which says 10 million, the other says 20. Let's stick with 20, and say it's from the author. It sucks that we can't get official figures, but we can't, so either take it out completely (dumb) or leave it as and say it is coming from the author. I've e-mailed TOR and haven't heard back from them yet, so that's out unless they get back to me. Plus it's unverifiable unless they give me a weblink. I say leave 20 million, citing TG's website. We use it a lot, but at least it's verifiable, and if we note that it comes from TG then people can make their own decisions on whether to believe it or not. Oh, and I'm going to be brining up the 'best known for wildlife' next, I'm still disagreeing with that. Tah!

Mystar: In reference to your comment "I see you have a problem with using TOR. As this is where we get these numbers from to post on the official web site" Tor is not mentioned in relation to the 20 million figure, the only reference to Tor is in the reference given for WFR. Therefore, there is no reason to think that Tor provided those figures, they are coming from TG as far as any reader is concerned. WLU 13:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi mystar, you said "What you think is irrelevant, what we have agreed by consensus is". Consensus has not been reached. I am part of the consensus, and I disagree. Neofreak also disagrees with saying the numbers come from TOR. I can only assume this is because they do not come from TOR, they come from TG. There are two people who disagree with the idea that the 20 million figure comes from TOR, while you say it does. Now, since the reference provided links to TG's page, and not TOR's, and since it does not say on the page that the sales figures come from TOR, it is either passively incorrect (if we were merely mistaken) or active lying (if, as in this case, we know the figures come from TG rather than TOR) to state that TOR has said TG has sold 20 million copies of his novels. It is the truth to say that TG has said his series has sold 20 million. If you have a reference from TOR saying that TG has sold 20 million copies, put it on the page and we can stop editing to no purpose. Until then, please leave the page factually accurate, as it is now. WLU 18:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

You wanted "factually Accurate" We have a cited Source and it is factually accurate. Until you can dis-prove the source and facts please leave it alone. Removing it would be considered an act of vandalism, as you would be removing factual and cited source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystar (talk • contribs)

Why are you being like this? We were making so much progress here and now you're, for lack of a better descriptive, throwing hissy fits again. This is not contructive and we've all already agreed why this version of the introduction is inappropriate. NeoFreak 00:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

No.. "WE" didn't agree that at all. We did agree that what was up there was acceptable.. Suddenly WLU decides it is no longer good enough. I'm a bit tired of WLU's undermining of anything Goodkind. And his decided refusal to reveal his identity. He knows that to reveal who he really is would cast the true light to his reason for suddenly showing up and attacking Goodkind right off the bat. His familiarity wit the whole Misplaced Pages process, archiving, editing, procedures and code casts a great deal of suspicion as to his real identity and reason for suddenly appearing and attacking Goodkind... then moving to a few other pages in an attempt to dispell the truth.

Point is, we had a consensus and I for one could have lived with it. But WLU keeps pushing and it is more than obvious that he only wants to allow things that detract form Goodkind's work.

As I've stated we have a reputable source in the 50 Million and you cannot refute it. It is sourced and creditable. I'm happy either way. We use Galen's source or we keep the 20 million and the fact that it doesn't include many of his foreign sales...as it was before WLU wrongfully changed it...

Again I've read all your incerts and as I've said... the Galen edit meets ALL that criteria! SO that tells me you are in violation of Wiki standard and policy. then it woudl be you and WLU who are vandalising the page. Please stop!

Mystar 01:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the point of discussing any of this with you until you can find a way to frame your arguments about content without accusations and charges of conspiracy and ill intent. I'm just sick to death of it. I know alot of people don't like Goodkind, I know alot of people don't take Objectivism seriously, I know alot of people mock Goodkind on the internet and I know that this page has been the target of vandals in the past. None of this is an excuse to act like that. I'm just done with it. NeoFreak 01:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, now perhaps some real work can be done with out all your nit picking. I happen to be in it for the long haul. I'm not someone who (by your own admission) wandered over because he didn't like that someone else edited his sacred page. The fact of the matter IS that these Goodkind pages are full of improper information, Book sales just isn't one of them. You, et al simply don't want to allow anything of content that shines a positive light on Goodkind or his works...thus the fight to try and keep out the 50 million figure, which is and has been properly sourced and cited...according to policy! That you don't like it is not the issue. The issue is it adheres to policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystar (talk • contribs)

Mystar, do you ever actually read anything? Your arguments and reasoning haven't changed since the the page first started changing. Read my reasoning, and say why you disagree. Also the fact that there's three different figures means we can't rely on any of them without further confirmation. Go back and read WHY I am making the edit, then come up with some real objections. By the way, who are you? Your user page has no identifying information on it, I can't find an e-mail point, get over it, it doesn't matter who you are, it matters what you say. And you don't say anything, you just cast aspersions and freak out if people don't agree. That is not how you justify editing, that's just weak. Get over it. I have never made a personal attack on you, you have caused what, three people to quit editing because of your irrational overreactions and constant blocking of actual improvements and justified information? Get a clue, you suck at this, read the policies and actually justify what you are editing. WLU 12:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, look everyone, I'm going to propose a new way to write the introductory sentence that maybe everyone can agree upon. It would read like this:

Terry Goodkind (born 1948) is a contemporary American writer and author of the best-selling epic fantasy series, The Sword of Truth, which has sold over 20 million copies.

What I did was two things:

1: I removed the "according to the author's website" bit. Let the reference speak for itself. When you actually visit the link, the first thing you see is "Terry Goodkind - The Official Website", so why don't we just let the reader decide whether or not to trust that link.

2: I removed the whole sentence "However, these numbers may not include many of Goodkind's foreign book sales." Since Terry, Russ, and everyone here seems to agree that there is no verifiable source for the number of foreign sales Terry has, then let's remove that statement entirly. That way, everything we state is completely true, that he has "sold over 20 million copies".

Let me know what you guys think. - Runch 16:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I second Runch. NeoFreak 19:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a second-best solution, but a solution I'm willing to accept. Users have to go an extra step to see a weak source, and there is no warning that it is a biased (and therefore, poor) source. I would like to see what Mystar's reasoning is to keep it as a reference from TOR rather than TG, call it morbid curiosity. WLU 19:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally I prefer the 50 Million as it is sourced. As for "who "I" am", I'm well known, All anyone has to do is to look on any Goodkind website and find ALL my personal information, unlike you WUL who is specifically trying to hide your true identity for reasons we both know. Just because you live in Canada doesn't mean you can't be tracked. Mystar 19:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

All of the numbers are sourced, they are just badly sourced. If we put any of the numbers in, since none of them are third-party sources, I think there should be a note indicating the figures are from the author (or agent for Galen), not the publishing company or another independent source. Since Galen, the souce for the 50 million figure, said it was incorrect, it's pretty much out in my mind, but he did guess at a figure of 20 million. However, since it is up to everyone else to trust that I'm telling the truth that I got an e-mail from Galen, we can't use my word to discount it. Since the other two figures are lower, they contradict the 50 million figure as well. Best might be simply leaving total book sales out of the article completely until we can find a proper, trustworthy reference, or put in all three, plus the three sources with a statement about where they come from. Also a problem is that two of the figures are from TG himself I think, and they contradict each other or one is considerably older than the other. He is a NYT bestseller, so that's pretty good bragging rights right there, and it's totally verifiable. As for your usual comments about my identity, see my user page, where I will rebut them, using logic, which you will ignore. Incidentally, why do you prefer 50 million? Do you have a reason which might be convincing? Please, I am eager to hear it. If you have anything substantive to say, please do so, but if you're going to rant again, don't bother, use your own talk page for that. WLU 00:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Work

There is an ongoing debate about his work and influence. Older items have been archived, what is current remains below 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I happen to have several prints of Goodkind's work in my home and IF you have any of the SOT books you also have some of his work there as well. Goodkind painted the leaf pattern on the inside pages of the first few books. It took him 50+ hours to do that piece, as it is a very difficult piece of work. dot, painting and shading is not the easiest thing to do. The image of Cara of Temple of the Winds is also a piece of Goodkind's work, but that is nothing compared to the real work he has done with realistic marine and wildlife paintings. He has several shows at various galleries, his last painting titles Penguins on Ice http://www.terrygoodkind.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2045 sold for over for over $30,000.00 ten years ago, and was just resold for over $200,000.00 earlier this year. Mystar 03:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's good enough for me but having a link to the sale, a independant site/gallery/etc or anything else along those lines will go a long way. I'm not inclined to believe that there is an elborate hoax set up to decieve people into thinking his is a commissioned artist when he is not. Without a thiry party reference though the wording should read "Terry Goodkind has claimed" or words to that effect. Still, I see no problem including it in the article. NeoFreak 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Symbolism

There was a section on symbolism that has not been touched since 2005. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

First off I think all this should go to the SoT pages and not the TG page. Secondly there is no doubt that the books are infused with Objectivist symbolism and TG has stated as much in interviews and online chat (has he not?) plus it's just in your face obvious. Just make sure it get sourced and it shouldn't be a problem to include it as it is relevant to the subject. NeoFreak 03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Previous careers

Some individuals discussed previous careers, such as hypnotist and formula one driver.

Mystar was going to provide proof and references to this, which will add to the page if they are available. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Philosophical Views!

Terry Goodkind puts a lot of objectivist philosophy in his books. Some find it preachy. Goodkind's response on an on-line chat was: Goodkind explained to those present who had criticized his writing style with such harsh criticism of the base philosophy and the moral and ethical values contained within the series, saying that they were not fans, and that they hated that his novels existed. He also claimed "their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good... These people hate what is good because it is good." We have seen the full effect and thuth of this fact by the attacks against the values with in the series, against the moral and ethicial set the characters uphold. Mystar contested this, there was some back and forth, the debate is ongoing and as of August 28th, 2006, was reflected in the article itself below. Stuff from June and before was archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Photo

There was discussion whether the photo in the article was recent. Mystar stated that it was, and provided several other pictures to put up if people wanted. There were no takers, and the photo seen as of August 28th, 2006 was the same one that has been up for a while. The other photos are below. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There was also a brief discussion circa April 2006 about TG editorializing. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A discussion of cleaning up the discussion page. I'm doing so, archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability of "online chat"

There was a discussion of the verifiability and usefulness of on-line chat as a source of information for Misplaced Pages. Originally this was an discussion which ended up being a series of heated remarks and discussion outside of the original topic. All posts dated to before August. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Alienus and Mystar

A long dialogue between these two posters. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Mystar's Edits

A dialogue between Runch, Mystar and Werthead dating July 2006 initially about archiving rather than deleting the talk page. Soon moved past this point. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent Edits

THis section was not changed since July, so I moved it into the archive. WLU 20:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor Quibble

A discussion of TG work with marine and wildlife paintings that was never replied to, by Runch. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy Author or Novelist?

Took out an initial section that discussed why TG could be categorized as a fantasy author. Archived. Left in some other bits of continuing comment. 64.230.1.241 04:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This section has been quiet for several days, which is unusual for this page. I'll assume this means consensus has been reached for this section and am archiving the relevant discussion. WLU 16:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More Edits by Mystar

Mystar, aka IP 68.188.220.8, the recent edits made to the Terry Goodkind article were not vandalism. You can't revert them just because you didn't like the fact that the editor changed what you had initially written. In fact, reverting the edits in such a way IS considered vandalism. Look Mystar, I still firmly believe that you want to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, but it is obvious by your edit history that you just don't know how to go about doing so. I've looked at your contributions - and roughly 90% or more of them involve edits to Terry Goodkind and this talk page. If you're ever going to learn Misplaced Pages protocol and etiquette, I urge you to branch out. Look at other articles. Read help pages. Contribute and be involved in more than one topic. For starters, I'd suggest looking at some of these pages: • Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset - A simple rule book for new editors • Misplaced Pages:Vandalism - Defines what is and what is not vandalism • Help:Reverting - Lets you know when to use the revert function • Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot - Tips on how to discuss issues on talk pages • Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles - PLEASE read this help page. It is very pertinent to you. In addition, you may want to look at some articles on authors that have reached featured article status. Although Terry Goodkind is unique, looking at some of these articles may help you understand the direction in which we want to move for the article on Goodkind. Examples: Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Douglas Adams, to name a few. I hope you actually do take the time to look into some (or all) of the pages I have pointed out to you. They may help you become less possessive of this particular page on Goodkind, and I'm sure expanding your horizons will help you become a better Wikipedian. Sincerely, Runch 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Most of the edit in question that mystar reverted was indeed not vandalism, but it did add a few rather dubious things in the article which I have now attempted to correct. Firstly, there is the "essential sense of the word " thing - it is already inside a direct quote from TG, I see no reason for additional quote marks, nor do I understand what the "sic" is doing there. Secondly, the "though how this differs from any other novel is uncertain" or something to that extent; I don't think sarcastic commentary belongs in a Misplaced Pages article. If we are to discuss the credibility of Goodkind's statements, which I do not think is the intention of this article anyway, then surely we can find a more elegant way than just adding comments of that kind inbetween the quotations. I would assume that with those edits made, mystar has no further reason to revert as the rest of that edit seemed good. Paul Willocx 13:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Yes, I agree, thanks for your revisions. - Runch 14:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC) sic was there because he said 'word' when it refers to two words - fantasy author. 198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Would all of you kindly stop referring to me as "Wilcox"? Thank you. Paul Willocx 18:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

The edit warring on this page really has gotten to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I'd like to draw everyone's attention to: Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. Steps one and two (discussion and trying to "wait out the war") have proved ineffective, so at this point I'm going to make a request for informal mediation. If that proves ineffective in stopping the problems, I'm going to make a request for a formal mediation session. Should both of those steps prove ineffective, I will request arbitration, although I hope it need not come to that. Regardless of the way, I hope to finally put an end to this conflict. - Runch 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Sounds reasonable.198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC) As an outside observer and someone who has not invested any real time editing the TG article it would seem you are already at the point of needing moderation. Mystar is admittedly acting as Terry Goodkind's mouth piece and has taken the position of doing what ever it takes to change this article into what he and TG want it to be, breaking several rules along the way despite repeated warnings from some very patient editors. This is not TG's article, it is everybody's artilce about TG. NeoFreak 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC) I'll give the informal mediators a couple of days to see if they can help, but yes, I do forsee myself having to make a formal request for moderation or arbitration in the near future. - Runch 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 
I would think an immediate stop to all edits and a request for an admin to temp lock the article would be best. While no one is 100% happy with the article it won't kill anybody to leave it as is for a day or two until the mediation can begin. NeoFreak 21:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

References

I made some additions to the article, I think they really help out with the lingering NPOV issues. Anyway, we'll see if the edits stand up to the test of time. What I need help with is the references. For some reasons, they are appearing with the wrong numbers and some are appearing twice in the References section at the bottom of the article. I can't figure out what's wrong with them, maybe someone else can see what I did wrong? (The weirdest part is that they look perfectly fine in the preview, but in the actual save they go crazy. Go figure...) - Runch 19:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC) They look fine to me; the numbers match the sources used, and I don't see any appearing twice at the bottom. Where specifically do you see trouble? Brendan Moody 19:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC) Strange, maybe it's a problem with my browser or my cache. For example, the first reference appears as an instead of a . But as long as it looks right to everyone else, I don't have any problem with it. If anyone else sees it appearing strangely, then I'll go back to worrying about it. Thanks though, Runch 19:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Archive

198.96.2.93 added an archive box and removed a bunch of today's discussion but did not move it to an archive page. I've reverted that change and archived less recent material that doesn't seem relevant to the current disputes. If any user thinks some of the archived material should stay on this page, I invite them to restore it. The page is still pretty long, but given the ongoing issues I don't think further archiving is desirable. Brendan Moody 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Official Moderation

Mystar, I repeat NeoFreak's question: Since informal moderation will most certainly not bring an end to this conflict, are you willing to take part in an offical mediation session? The decision is yours, but if you refuse to take part in an official mediation (as is your right), then I will make a request for arbitration. The arbitration is decided by the Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee, and their decision is final. This could include, but is not limited to, making changes to the article that neither of us wants, or having one or more Misplaced Pages editors banned from editing for an unspecified period of time. I will expect your reply within 48 hours, and I will make no changed to the TG article until then. If I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are unwilling to participate, and I will request arbitration. - Runch 20:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I second this. I really hope that Mystar is willing to engage in some mature dialouge about this through a mediation and it doesn't have to go to the level of an arbitration. If it does though I will support that as well as there will be no other choice. NeoFreak 20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I too would like to see Mystar, and also 198.96.2.93, participate in mediation. There's been too much edit warring in the article, and we need to have a civil discussion about various issues and come to a consensus so that a stable, mutually agreeable article will be produced. Brendan Moody 20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I am not here to pull strings or whatever it is called. I am just describing what I have read in this talk page. Mystar has been backed into a corner when he is right, and I have wiki-standard's to back that claim. As new to wiki as I am ( I just found the tilda signature thing today) I can't believe I am the one to cite this: Biographies of living persons. Jimmy Wales has said: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Without knowing it, Mystar has been adhering to this policy, and the Biographies of living persons standard. I would like to draw you're attention to the fact that in the face of unsourced, or poorly sourced, negative edits, the subject of the article or someone editing on their behalf has the weight when the matter is brought up. Now, here is the problem, there are not very many acceptable, professional grade sources to base a biographical page on this living person as he maintains a certain level of privacy. "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist..." Many of the edits not started by Mystar, which he has reverted, have the quality of trying to sensationalize mistaken and error information using mis-quotes and half-truths that are not viable tender in an encyclopedic environment. If you get you're facts right, Mystar will not challenge it. Remember, this is an article about a living person and as such you need to tread very cautiously when editing it because the subject of the article DOES have weight against what is said about them. While it discourages subjects from contributing, it does encourage subjects to correct erronious information and remove libel or insulting commentation that is not properly sourced. In this, Mystar has done nothing wrong, and has been doing things by the book. I suggest everyone review Biographies of living persons and make sure you have reviewed it, know it and understand it before you make a single post more. You can be sure that Official Moderation will go into this. Omnilord 01:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC) I'm very excited that you are persuing a constructive discussion Omnilord! This is exactly what belongs here. To start out I am familiar with the guidlines and rules dictating biographical articles on living persons. The message Jimbo was trying to convey is that all speculation and POV entires are to be deleted and not just tagged with a "". The three principl rules to govern any bio artilce (and really most others for that matter) are • Verifiability • Neutral point of view • No original research as is clearly labeled at the beginning of the referenced article. This is the point that the other editors and myself have been trying to drive home. Editor's opinions of Goodkind, his work or his stance on any issue are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. The refrencing of an outside or third party's opinion if it is relavent and citable is allowed. This current situation we find ourselves is in fact covered in Biographies of living persons and is repeated for ease of review here: "Well-founded complaints about biographical articles from their subjects arrive daily in the form of e-mails to the Misplaced Pages contact address, phone calls to the Foundation headquarters and to Jimbo Wales, and via postal mail. These people are justifiably upset when they find inaccurate or distorted articles, and the successful resolution of such complaints is a touchy matter requiring ongoing involvement of OTRS volunteers and paid staff." "Frequently the problem is compounded when the subject attempts to edit their own article to remove problematic content. Since such people may not be regular Wikipedians, they are unaware of our policies, and are often accused of vandalism or revert warring when they are in fact trying to edit in good faith." It further covers that all biogrpahies of living persons should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Concerning material that is defamitory to a living person (of which I have seen none) is covered quite simply as "Unverified material that could be construed as critical, negative or harmful in articles about living persons should be removed immediately, and should not be moved to the talk page. The same applies to sections dealing with living persons in other articles. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." This covers material such as "Many people think that Terry Goodkind likes to eat babies" or "Terry Goodkind is rumored to smell bad". This does not cover critacal review of his works. This also does not cover a group's opinion about him if it can be cited and is relavent as covered in Reliable Sources. 
Please see my comments below and review main page the edit history, again. NeoFreak 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I would be interested in participating in official moderation for this entry. 198.96.2.93 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I just wanted to notify everyone that I have filed a request for help from an official moderator, you can all view the request here. Everyone who was previously involved in discussion on this page and explicitly expressed interest in being involved in such moderation has been notified on their individual talk pages - please be sure to sign the request within the next 7 days. Also, read the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request - if you have additional issues, add them in the "Additional issues to be mediated" section. I want to make sure that everyone knows that moderation is a slow process, it will take time. Really though, all it is is having an additional cool head (belonging to a neutral party) involved in the discussion about how to improve the article. Specifically, we'll be addressing the issues listed in the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request. On a side note, I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts. I think that in the last 24 hours or so, everyone has been acting in a much more civilized and constructive manner. I like the fact that we're now placing proposed changes to the article at the bottom of this discussion page. Let's not forget that the moderator will only be here to help us - we can still try and write this article collectively on our own. We're finally getting somewhere, people, let's keep it up! - Runch 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not going to be as active now as I have been in the last two months, I am returning to deleware where I have time constraints on doing certain things like using the phone for internet. Edit when I can, Omnilord 23:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Temporary stop to all edits

This aritlce is again on the verge of an edit/revert war and that helps nobody. I would ask that all parties please stop editing until an offical mediation or arbitration can be completed and a consensus can be reached on this article. NeoFreak 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I'd like to remind everyone to keep in mind the need for civility in a stressful discussion like this one. I've seen recent comments from both "sides" that have been insensitive or rude. Regardless of how you feel those who disagree with you have behaved, please be as polite as possible and avoid further escalation. Thanks. Brendan Moody 17:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC) 
I've touched up some wording to reduce the level of bias as well as correct some factual errors in the bio section, namely that all his books are bestsellers. Having examined a number of archives, most especially the NYT bestseller archive provided by Hawes(now listed in references), I've found that all but two are on the list, and thus corrected the statement to appear as such. -Kedlav I don't really have a problem with the neutrality or tone of this article in a siginficant way any more. If no one else objects or still has an issue than I say we remove the POV template and resume some editing. The few edits that have been done in the past 24 hours are good edits and if that kind of thing continues I don't see any more big problems here. It's really looking alot better. NeoFreak 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Sounds good to me. - Runch 22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Notice regarding solicited participation

It has recently come to my attention that Mystar has been soliciting other Goodkind fans to participate in the discussion here. It is an official policy of Misplaced Pages that such advertising is considered highly inappropriate, and that participation only to further an individual agenda (rather than to improve the whole encyclopedia) is strongly discouraged. For more information on the topic, please see this page, which details the nature of and reasons for the relevant policy. This warning applies equally to anyone who comes here from Westeros.org or any other message board containing anti-Goodkind sentiment. This dispute has gotten large enough as it is, and the best way to resolve it is through participation from more experienced Wikipedians. Thank you for your understanding. Brendan Moody 03:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) 
in keeping with your advise/suggestion I have altered some wording to assure all parties involved that this is not happening. If anyone were to look about Misplaced Pages has been a bone of contention for ages. Asking for input and advise is not the same thing as asking fan's to participate. I expressly ask for no partipication, any kind of posting or any kind of action from any Goodkind fan's....only input. mystarMystar 04:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) Given the circumstances, I'm not sure it's such a bad thing, though I hope Omnilord will also contribute to other pages, the SoT-related ones if nothing else... actually, I just looked at his contribs, and it seems he has already done so in the past, and he had an account long before he interfered in the debate here. You might be talking about other people, who haven't posted here (yet), I suppose. Paul Willocx 09:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I've been on and off revising the articles related to terry goodkind since february. In fact all are in my watchlist. I've not been as active as maybe I should have been but other matters have been foremost in my attention, and Mystar has had (and still does have) my full confidence that he would handle matters adequately. I have also tried to just look in at least once every seven days just to be sure there hasn't been any new vandalism. Even though I am still adjusting to my new job and schedule, I will still try to make contributions toward this, I don't want to see anyone screwing up the facts when it comes to this particular subject matter. Omnilord 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Since we have the edit stop, a list of proposed changes

We can always make a list here of suggested changes that can be implemented after we end the edit stop, if there should be consensus (by which I also mean mystar and Omnilord) about them. I would suggest that people add their suggested changes here instead of in the article itself, but it seems the only people changing the article now are anons or users not involved in the talk page, so it seems unlikely that they'd read this. Oh well. So far I see two proposed changes: firstly, under "Influence", the sentence "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, reached number one on the New York Times Best Seller list, a feat which none of his previous novels had yet to achieve" is incorrect, so it is suggested to put "had achieved" instead. Secondly, anon sees POV in the same sentence, and wants to remove the words "feat" and "achieve", to be replaced by something like "a first for the author". Paul Willocx 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

All of Mr. Goodkind's books, with the exceptions of Stone of Tears and Wizard's First Rule have appeared on the New York Times Bestseller List.. -- proposed by Kedlav Paul Willocx 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

A minor, non-controversial edit: Add the link Legends (book) to the anthology Legends. - Runch 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Arbor makes another suggestion for that grammatical error: "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, is his first to have reached number one" etc. Arbor also suggests cutting the lines starting with "Although Goodkind" and ending on "is a little extreme", and I for one am inclined to agree. Paul Willocx 21:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Facts vs. Opinions

In all this discussion, it's hard to try and decipher what other people are thinking. Therefore, I'd like to post how I think we should deal with the mixture of facts and opinions that will undoubtedly comprise the "final draft" so to speak of the article. Part 1 - Facts: All pertinent facts should be included. For example, the Biography section should be nothing but facts. (ie. Goodkind has worked as a carpenter, a violinmaker, and a restorer of rare and exotic artifacts and antiques). Mostly facts are data. However, let me point out that some quotations can be facts as well. If Mr. Goodkind makes the statement "I am an Objectivist", then that is a fact - he, after all, would be the ultimate authority on the matter of his own beliefs. Sounds fine to me, as long as it is just facts, see huge post below, "My beefs" Part 2 - Opinions: Opinions are a crucial part of critical commentary, whether they are Mr. Goodkind's opinions or anyone else's. For example, let's say we have the quote by Goodkind stating that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy". This is an opinion, but it is important to the article. A critical commentary would then play out like this (just an example mind you): • Mr. Goodkind stated that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy" • Joe Reviewer 1 also believes that his novels have changed the face of fantasy • Joe Reviewer cites the heavy focus on philosophy and Objectivism as his reasons • Bill Reviewer 2 agrees with Joe Reviewer, but for different reasons • Bill Reviewer cites hordes of fans saying that the series is "wicked sweet" • John Reviewer 3 disagrees with the statement • John Reviewer 3 cites similarities to other fantasy novels, and previous novels with objectivist ties And that would be all we'd include. There wouldn't be any conclusions (so this would be different from your typical high school English essay), because conclusions would merely be our (the editors) opinions and would also fall under the category of original research. Anyway, that's how I was hoping to proceed with the article. Comments? Questions? - Runch 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) As long as there can be opinions to balance out TG's. Right now it is a lot of his, and a slow, hard-fought addition of other opinions. I think it's gradually improving though, which is good. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC) I now have a userid, I'll see if I can figure out updating it for arbitration and whatnot. Formerly 198.96.2.93, WLU 18:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I think one of the best ways to clear up POV on this article is to include a "Quotes" section and move review and "Themes" sections to the Sword of Truth page. This is one way to seperate critical review of his works without giving the impression that negative views of his works are directed against his person. Thoughts? NeoFreak 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Good point. Paul Willocx 13:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC) I agree that moving any discussion of the Sword of Truth to the SoT page would make sense, but it won't change that there will still be the issues I pointed out. What I'm really trying to gage is, how do we deal with pertinent discussions (Read:opinions!) about the SoT? Is there a place for them at all in an encyclopedia, regardless of who the opinions belong to? - Runch 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My Beefs (shortened)

Anyone wants the longer version, it's archived. 1) TG is best known as a novelist, the link that stated he was best known as a realistic painter does not actually say this. 2) All novels have been bestsellers is currently a work in progress 3) not super relevant 4) Phantom is a best seller - needs a references other than a weblog 5) TG's books are fantasy, in my opinion and I'm backed up by amazon, but there is debate 6) As 5 pretty much 7) As 5 again 8) As 5 9) There's a quote about him writing to inspire 2) Yeah, we do actually. But there's an edit stop. 4) Phantom did make #1, and if that isn't a criterium for being a bestseller, what is? 6) I don't know, I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with him, and I thought he put it in a much better and less offensive way there. 8) Yeah, don't think we'd be doing Mr Goodkind a service by leaving it there. Paul Willocx 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1) Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography. If you can't cite it then you can't include it. Unless there is a viewable citable statement it is word of mouth and WP:OR NeoFreak 6) The online chat in question was not just a chat between people, but was a Q&A session with the author via IRC. Not only was this an official function jointly of terrygoodkind.com and terrygoodkind.net, it was a rare opportunity for many fans from around the world to be able to communicate as close to in person as possible at the time because Terry was not doing a signing tour. Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages. Did he say it? Is is citable? Is it relavent to the subject? If the answer to these three questions is yes, and I believe it is, then it can be included. NeoFreak 7) What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself. If the source is not reliabe then, yes, it needs to go. NeoFreak 8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article. Omnilord 01:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC) As it is citable and relevent to the SoT series than it belongs on the SoT page. NeoFreak 01:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

FOR MODERATION REVIEW

okay, since people insist on editing, I think we should go ahead with agreeable grammar, spelling, and very basic edits that have been proposed so far, and just create a list of reversion points here for moderation to review.

No new information should be added and nothing should be removed until moderation however.

• ] - the preserved revision at time of stopped editing.

I've already said this a half dozen times in a half dozen places. The edit stop was requested by me and I am not an admin. This is not an enforceable stop and if other editors wish to be rude about then you can't revert their edits on these grounds alone. On a side note though I thought the anon's last edit was good as the "rather extreme" comment was out of line and POV. NeoFreak 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Neofreak about edits in general - we need not revert everything, only significant changes that involve article themes and POV statements. And I also though the removal of the "rather extreme" comment was justified, it is POV (and I'm the one who put that in in the first place! But I've seen the error of my ways, so to speak, since then, so I'd like to retract that edit if possible.) - Runch 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited a few POV positions. Can we start from there? What we have now is nuteral and unbiased. That should satisfy everyoneMystar 05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well on another note your edits to the SoT page are looking really good.NeoFreak 22:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it certainly is, but there might have been parts in what you cut that didn't have to go. Guess we can carefully restart from how it is now, though... Paul Willocx 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WLU replies to comments

Took out this section and archived it. WLU 16:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

anon attack on mystar and Goodkind

Mystar, seriously stop the Terry fanboyism. If you wish to create a controversy page with another author, do so in regards to what they've done that deserves controversy. Though you love decrying Martin and Erikson, I don't recall them blatantly insulting their critics like Terry did. I don't recall them claiming they aren't fantasy authors...Terry is a fantasy author, he'll have to deal with that. He can write his novels for whatever purpose, but what's the title feature of the books? A magic sword? Who're the main villains? An evil wizard who serves a demonic underworld master and an evil emperor who can enter the minds of others via magical powers and commands an army of enslaved wizards and sorceresses. If Goodkind wishes to write about Keepers, Swords of Truth, Confessors, War Wizard and the like when magic is often the only thing saving the rear ends of his characters and not having written any other novels in any other setting, he'll have to accept the title of fantasy author. When red dragons, gars, witches, wizards, sorcerers, sorceresses,Confessors and Dream Walkers are all characters in your books? Sorry, hun, but fantasy's yo' game. Moreover, Mystar, why should Terry's wishes matter? Is he wishing to express all critcism? Should his page be free of remarks he made that blatantly insulted his critics? It's favoritism from you, Mystar, plain and simple. By the way, Terry can keep his hypocrisy on how he writes to inspire when his heroes slaughter unarmed civilians to himself, thanks User:Unknown

We see here the vitriol and the intent from someone who is making an attack, and is not mature enough to list who they are. Nothing but animosity.... Look if you want to make your point and validate it...do so. BUT do it within the rules and the proper manor. I have added the correct content and we have the series set as fantasy, set and to why it is considered fantasy, we have the fact that Goodkind is stating that it is sold as fantasy. You can decry the fact that Goodkind thinks his works carry important human themes and are about noble ideals and his characters holding true to their values with out sacrificing them to get what they want. That is your problem, not mine or Misplaced Pages's

You betray your intent with your words. You betray your inability to comprehend what the series is about by so clearly missing the point. You seem to be unable to be neutral and unbiased, I suggest you take a deep breath and read something more to your level and ability to grasp. Goodkind's works are clearly not within your ability to grasp. I suggest that you be mature and honerable about your identy next time. it would serve your point much better than trying to hide like a school child. Mystar 12:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The idea that TG think his work carry important themes is his own opinion, and should be a very small portion of the page. What the series is about, beyond the actual events in the books, is open to interpretation by everyone who has read them. I thought Wizard's First Rule was an effort to project TG's modern fixation on sex and pain into a pre-modern world, where most of fantasy takes place. But I didn't write that in the article 'cause it's just my opinion.

WLU 18:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What do people think about rolling Fantasy designation and Influence into a single brief paragraph? How about:

Background (or something else) and influences TG has been influenced by the books and ideas of Ayn Rand, and is a strong supporter of objectivist philosophy. He has stated that he writes in the genre of fantasy because he believes in its ability to display important human themes, while viewing the world-building aspects as secondary.

Pithy, compact, doesn't make him look crazy, actually kinda complimentary. I still think the other picture of just him is better - it's larger, clearer, he's looking directly into the camera, and there's only one person, though I do acknowledge the worth of having his wife in it.

I also still think the 'best know for realistic paintings' should be changed, and to date I have yet to encounter any reason to keep it.

Comments are welcome, discussions on my talk page please.

And we see here the absolute hypocrisy from someone who posts under the name 'Mystar' on the internet having the audacity to accuse someone of posting annonymously. Animosity? Whenever anyone dares say a bit that just maybe goes against Terry, you flip out. We've seen how you react when Terry's head's on the block, Mystar. Oh, and it's our problem Terry thinks one thing and rights another? He can say whatever he wants and interject his values: He's a fantasy author because he writes fantasy. Really, Mystar...what am I 'missing?' Should the human themes in A Song of Ice and Fire or the Wheel of Time preclude it from being a fantasy series? No, Mystar, if he wrote a book set on earth, it'd be different. But he writes it in a fantasy setting. He writes about characters who use magic. So does every other fantasy author. Some of terry's rather vitriolic comments deserve to be up on the page so people can judge him for themselves. If the makers of, say...Highlander said they didn't make a movie about swordfights, but characters who had swordfights, would we discount it as action and fantasy? No, fantasy is an integral part of Goodkind's world. He'll have to live with that until he writes more books.

Do NOT alter the comments on the Talk page as it is vandalism esp when it is someone else's. I have changed back your alterations to the header. Now that you are aware that this is vandalism I assume it won't happen again. NeoFreak 19:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

addition of an info writer box

Following is all the info for the box. The recent pic has been ok'd by Goodkind, and as I own the photo, I give my permssion. I've tried to figure it out, and well... I'm just not that script or code savvy.

{{Infobox Writer | name = Terry Goodkind | image = [[Image:http://www.sanctuaryslight.com/mystarpics/Goodkind-book-signing-event-8-26-06-A.JPG | caption = Terry Goodkind, Aug 2006 Las Vegas | birth_date = 1948 | birth_place = Omaha, Nebraska | death_date = | death_place = | occupation = Novelist | genre = Fantasy | movement = | magnum_opus = The Sword of truth | influences = Ayn Rand, Aristotle. | influenced = | website = http://www.terrygoodkind.com/ http://www.terrygoodkind.net | footnotes = }}

The box looks nice. Thanks for allowing the use of your image; if you want it to appear in the article, you'll need to upload it to Misplaced Pages. I've never uploaded images myself, so I don't know too much about it, but there's a guide to the process here. Brendan Moody 18:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Uploaded and added the picture. It *may* get deleted if someone gets overly zealotic about it, because I wasn't sure about the GFDL. Short summary: GFDL means that not only does the owner allow the picture to be on Misplaced Pages, but he also allows anyone else to take the image and use it, even for commercial purposes (though, as I understand it, credit to the original maker is still obligatory). I now uploaded it as a picture which has been permitted by its owner to appear on Misplaced Pages, and given the link to this talk page, I hope that will be sufficient. Paul Willocx 20:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanx Paul. Terry will give me any written permission needed, should anyone want it. At this point his verbal to me should suffice. I expect fully that some anti-fan will do just that. However looking over several fan pages they all have them, so singling this one out would more than smack of vandalism Mystar 22:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikiquotes page

I created a wikiquotes page for Terry Goodkind, there's a couple there now that I found on his website and the Flemming interview, here's the link.

http://en.wikiquote.org/Terry_goodkind

I prefered the earlier image that was on the webpage, the new one is pretty small. WLU 22:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well is that all you ever do is look for something to complain?, I'll get a better one then.Mystar 04:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the image is fine. Just my two cents. NeoFreak 04:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I preferred the other one because you could see TG face very clearly, while this one is smaller, and there are two people. It is not a complaint, it is an opinion, and a reasonable one. WLU 13:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Odd, I can see his face quite clerly, as well as that if his wife. When I put my glases on I can see it even better...Mystar 13:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason for either of you to get short with each other. Mystar likes the pic and WLU doesn't. WLU, if you want to propose the use of another picture by all means do so. Mystar, I didn't know that was his wife, now knowing that I like it even more but I suggest you add that fact to the caption. NeoFreak 13:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

If the pic is too small on the page itself, click on it and you get the full version. Paul Willocx 18:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

1. "Terry Goodkind Bio at terrygoodkind.com".
2. "Hawes' Archive of New York Times Bestsellers from 1994-2005".

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