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NACM notability

The federal government recognizes the existence of the NACM and included a representative in its Veterans Administration's Chiropractic Advisory Committee.

Dynamic Chiropractic, the most widely circulated chiropractic publication, admits to the existence of the NACM, even going so far as to launch a very public campaign to get the president of the NACM evicted from the Veterans Administration's Chiropractic Advisory Committee. The campaign was unsuccessful.

• Let's Send a Message! - Dynamic Chiropractic, September 24, 2002, Volume 20, Issue 20

• DuVall's VA Report Shows NACM's True Colors - Dynamic Chiropractic, November 18, 2002, Volume 20, Issue 24

The chiropractic profession admits to its existence and makes it very notable by the way it has criticized it and reacted to its criticisms of aberrant practices in the chiropractic profession. The behavior of certain editors here also reveals just how notable it is to them. They do all they can to ensure that it doesn't get mentioned here. They are thus attempting to press their POV on the article by suppressing the existence and opinions of a group of chiropractors. This kind of censorship should not be tolerated.

As for size and membership data, the WCA is mentioned, and it is about the same size and does not publish a members list. Such information is confidential, even in other groups. Membership estimates for both groups is 1-2%. BTW, NACM members can be members of other groups at the same time as being members of the NACM.

The WCA has this to say:

• The ACA criticized the WCA for having a “secret” non-published membership list. Why it is so important to the ACA to know the names of our members? We have never claimed to have a majority of D.C.s as members in the WCA. No organization can make that claim. We have chosen not to release the names of our members since, in the past, members have been harassed by the ACA and targeted with correspondence “suggesting” they resign from the WCA. The WCA should be judged on its effectiveness rather than its size. Considering the amount of time and energy the ACA spends discussing our activities, we must be very effective!

• The ACA found fault with our organizational structure, noting that we have a “self-proclaimed and un-elected president for life.” Admittedly, the WCA is not structured like the ACA, which is one of the reasons we have been able to act quickly and effectively for the good of the profession. The members of our Board of Directors are chosen according to the WCA by-laws. Our members don’t have a problem with this – why does it bother the ACA so much?

Membership figures for various chiropractic associations vary depending on the source, but here is one list from the ACA, comparing to other professions:

FACTS Licensed DCs: 60,000

• ACA 18,000
• ICA 8,000
• WCA 250?? undocumented

Licensed PTs: 203,261

• APTA 66,000

Licensed MDs: 583,000

• AMA 275,000
• AOA 1,200

Just to show how confusing the numbers game is, here's another estimate:

• "Oddly enough, the national organizations only represent a fraction of all Chiropractors. Believe it or not, the ACA, ICA and WCA together have fewer than ten thousand members, collectively. That means that there are 50,000 DC.s in America alone who belong to nothing!"

The WCA is a recognized chiropractic organization, and considers its membership and organizational structure to be none of the ACA's business.

So......why should the NACM have to answer to Steth? He may not want to recognize it, but the rest of the chiropractic world does, whether they like it or not (which they don't....;-). -- Fyslee 00:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. NACM doesn't appear to represent the sort of "tiny minority" viewpoint that would be excluded under WP:NPOV#Undue weight. They represent a certain skeptical POV a la other groups like NCAHF. (Not without bias, imo, but that goes with the territory for most controversial topics.) It is possible to name "prominent adherents" of this POV, e.g . Barrett, Sampson, etc., so it meets the WP threshold of significance. In general, best to err on the side of inclusion, imo... thx, Jim Butler 02:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Now, Fyslee, don't go Mccready on us. Remember -- civility. You don't have to answer to me, you have to answer to verifiablity here at WP.

OK, so you have showed that it has one member. There are numbers for the other groups, why not NACM. Most reformers are not members. It would seem that most chiropractors are not members of NACM. Where is the notability of that? And, what about the other stuff like, meetings, officers, seminars, elections? The other groups sponsor seminars, published notices of the speakers, locations, etc. Nada, zip, zilch.

As for Barrett, well, at the bottom of the one-page NACM website, he gets three of the four links that send viewers to his pages where he gets a chance to solicit donations and pay himself from the 'non-profit' profits, as discussed on his talk page. It seems that he is having his own credibility issues, flunking the board and passing himself off as a so-called 'expert'. Barrett/ Talk So it's no surprise he wholeheartedly endorses a club that he likely had a hand in forming!

Fyslee, why is it that most, if not all, of your contributions are either striving to marginalize chiropractors and chiropractic, OR send people to your pal Mr. Barrett's websites where he solicits donations? Can you really be objective here when he appears when you snap your fingers, oh yes, and you perform internet administrative responsibilities for him?

My personal view is that this whole thing doesn't pass the smell test. Steth 11:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

You dare to speak of civility with this message? You keep hounding us and demanding things which you have no right to demand of anyone. I write a very civil message and only mention you once, in a civil way, and you not only fail to respond to the content of my entry, you respond with a personal attack. Typical. As for your other insinuations, they have been answered many times before. Comment on content, not other editors. -- Fyslee 16:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Compromise on the NACM problem

Talk about people in glass houses! You seem to have had more than your share of run-ins with those who don't quite seem to see chiropractic from the "reality" POV of a physical therpist.

As much as you whine about it, your insistence about NACM being paraded in the body of the article, just doesn't pass the smell test. For one thing, most chiropractors aren't members - FACT. Next, most 'reformers' (a term made up by radical anti-chiropractic fundamentalist extremists like your self) aren't even members of NACM - FACT!! Well how about that?

Oh, yes and this so-called 'association' is a secret society that won't reveal it's members or numbers - FACT, has no officers, doesn't sponsor any continuing education seminars - FACT, and holds no elections - FACT. You have proven it has a member, so that makes it an association? Who are the officers and how long have they served?

I am putting aside the equally disturbing facts that you have self-serving interests as it's spokesperson/historian, and the additional fact that at the bottom of the one-page website are four links, three of which conveniently direct us to -- Barrett Enterprises!? Your pal? Leader? Do you perform internet responsibilities for him? Increase web traffic for him? Certainly donations must have increased as a direct result of adding Barrett's links to WP. How many dozens of links to Barrett Enterprises have you sprinkled around Misplaced Pages, Tinker Bell? Why won't you answer these questions, before you accuse me of not answering questions?

So please don't get huffy with me, Fyslee. In the interest of assuming good faith -- difficult, given your preponderance of self-serving interests listed above -- I am willing to compromise on the NACM problem by keeping the link at the bottom, but in no way does it belong in the body.

If you can't verify something, it, of course, just doesn't belong in WP and isn't notable either. Steth 17:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

steth wrote>Hi Abotnick. Could you point us to the source for this claim. Maybe a membership list. Otherwise unverifiable. Determined that most reformers not members.)

What do you mean most reformers are not members? The platform stated on their website is the only reform message of any chiropractic organization. Their membership list is not available, try contacting them and ask for statistics. You are really picking nits here to try to keep NACM from being mentioned in the body and it's very immature. Just because you don't like their position doesn't give you the right to censor them from the body.

NACM is a legitimate chiropractic organization and does represent the reform chiropractors. They have a discussion group and a website. I previously added a line to them in the reform section but someone snipped it out. I ask that this be restored in fairness to the group.Abotnick 20:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. WCA is allowed as a group but NACM is censored off for the reform chiropractors? This is unfair to the readers.

Abotnick 19:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Abotnick! No, I haven't forgotten about them. I'm actually slowly working on the transformation from the 60s and 70s to the 80s and 90s. NACM was created in 1984 and there are apparently some influential types in the association so it is notable. I just haven't been able to get there yet. Hang in there, I have to get back to work. --Dematt 20:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sophistry versus evidence

Gleng removes the Kinsinger link without addressing my criticism of his straw man null hypothesis model of Kinsinger's methodology. Indeed Gleng repeats the strawman arguemnt. But whichever way you cut and dice or duck and weave the fact remains that Kinsinger is notable, is qualified and has provided material which shows the alleged training of chiros is not being put into practice. This should be placed before the reader who can then make up their own minds about the methodology. I await discussion before replacing the link. It would have been good manners of gleng to replace it while this was sorted. I also wish to replace the deleted material showing how chiros had misused the Duke report. I also wish to replace the deleted material to say Chiropractic's vertebral subluxation, for which there is no accepted scientific evidence, should not be confused with other forms of . Mccready 16:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, Mccready. I think you are fighting an uphill battle. Just because some hate-filled anesthesiologist annoints himself chiro-slayer of the year with the full blessings of Stephen Barrett Enterprises, doesn't make him notable. In his own mind maybe. As for qualifications, owning a chiro-hate franchise doesn't qualify him for anything either. His only training is anesthesia (I'd have second thoughts before he put me under!), telemarketing (would you really trust them?) and bus advertising.

And unless you speak for the entire scientific community, this notion won't float either. Levine and others have graciously provided numerous reasons why statements like that are heavy on the POV and unacceptable.

It is, however, nice to see you back...again.  ; - ) Steth 16:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The Kinsinger link is not notable due to the reasons Gleng gave above. A charge of that nature needs to have strong V:RS, and the link doesn't pass muster. Your assertion that there is no scientific evidence for VS is a false statement. See my above discussion with Arthur Ruben. Lastly, the diff for subluxation is on the VS page, I really doubt someone on the chiro page would make that mistake and even if they did, the link goes to the VS page which points that out.--Hughgr 18:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My opinion remains the same as above on Kinsinger. I don't see how we can allow it without allowing other material that is just as RS.

I'm not familiar with the Duke report misused by chiros.

As for VS, we've been all through that and you didn't seem to want to accept that there may be even "some" scientific evidence to support it, so out of WP:Etiquette the entire sentence was removed. I am willing to try again to find an alternative that is VR. --Dematt 19:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mccready: yes I reverted an edit of yours that in my judgement hopelessly failed V RS, in line with WP policy; I did it myself rather than leave it to the chiropractors to do so precisely because I had hoped that it would be clearly recognisable as an edit that could not be interpreted as pov pushing. Nevertheless I explained my reversion on the Talk page extensively. If you read through the very extensive Talk here, you will recognise that the issues raised by your edit have been explored in the past at great depth; you will also see that it has become general practise to propose controversial edits on the Talk page before including them, to establish consensus first. If you do likewise, I am sure that your proposals will receive the same considerate attention that all do. This page has contributors from a very wide range of backgrounds and povs; I believe that we have learned that the assumption of good faith is generally justified; if you take a confrontational attitude in your edits, assuming that this is a battle between povs not a collaboration, then I think you will find little support here, even from those of us who share your pov.Gleng 08:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Finally as to the straw man hypothesis argument, I'm afraid I didn't respond to it as I didn't see any coherent argument here. I pointed out that if you are going to test whether chiropractors will refer a patient to medical treatment, then it doesn't seem sensible to begin by telling them that you are already receiving conventional medical advice, as it would seem to be reasonable to me for the chiropractor to believe that offering such advice would be redundant. I wouldn't have rejected the article for publication because of the hypothesis but because of poor design. I rejected it as V RS because it hasn't been published in a peer reviewed RS, and I'd reject links to patient testimonials for chiropractors in the same way and for the same reasons.Gleng 10:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the following "Most patients who visit a chiropractor do so initially because of symptoms arising from musculoskeletal problems, especially low back and neck pain, .... " and in relation to the above comments of Mccready, I believe it is true, and if true important to note here, that most patients initially consult a chiropractor because of symptoms that have been refractory to conventional medical treatment. Some of the opposition to chiropractic derives from the sincere fear that some patients will not reach conventional medical treatment in cases where conventional treatment might be very effective. In practice, for a wide range of conditions, many patients have conditions that are not amenable to objective diagnosis; such patients can be referred on and on from one speciality to another until they get exhausted or the condition resolves spontaneously. Personally I find it unsurprising that when such a patient reaches a practioner who takes the time to listen to them carefully and with respect, and offers advice and treatment based on extensive personal experience, explained in terms that they feel they understand, then they are likely to respond well, even if the treatment itself is objectively ineffective. This is or should be a principle of treatment in conventional medicine, but is often neglected for pressure of time. It is also true that patients are likely to ascribe spontaneous recovery to the coincidental interventions of a respected and caring practitioner. Please note that I am not attempting to judge whether treatment is effective or not, only that the equation of possible harm vs potential benefit is very different when we're considering patients whose symptoms have not been diagnosed or resolved by conventional routes.This note is also to expand on the distinction I make between case reports as evidence and trials.Gleng 12:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Grouping in Advocacy

Hey, anybody think that grouping the lists is not a good idea?

Chiropractic organizations

Mixer Chiropractic

• American Chiropractic Association (ACA)
• British Chiropractic Association (BCA)
• Canadian Chiropractic Association (CCA)
• Chiropractic Association of South Africa
• Chiropractic Doctors' Association of Hong Kong (CDA)
• European Chiropractors' Union (ECU)
• Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research (FCER)
• Hong Kong Chiropractors' Association (HKCA)
• Japanese Association of Chiropractors (JAC)

Straight Chiropractic

• International Chiropractors Association (ICA)
• World Chiropractic Alliance (WCA)
• World Federation of Chiropractic (WFC)

Reform Chiropractic

• National Association for Chiropractic Medicine

Dematt, while it is a creative thought, I think it adds unnecessary layers of detail that are meaningless to readers who land here. Just my thoughts. Steth 16:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It did look good didn't it:) I agree we will then have to try to decide what belongs where. It will probably be more trouble than it is worth. No problem. That's why I asked. --Dematt 17:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Dematt, I don't see why they are listed under "Advocacy" on the Chiropractic page. Shouldn't they be listed beneath the "Organizations" heading and move the "Advocacy" heading below this section? They are just organizations. What do you think? Steth 19:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What would you put in the Advocacy section? --Dematt 20:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

With only one exception (NACM) they are all advocacy sites, and should be listed as such. The NACM should be placed back in the Critiques section, where it originally was listed, or listed as you have done above, since it represents a form of internal critical advocacy.

Dematt, your suggestion above adds a layer of detail that creates meaning, and thus enriches the article. -- Fyslee 20:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead subluxation sentence structure

Mccready: Please look carefully at the language here "Chiropractic contends that spinal joint misalignments, which chiropractors call vertebral subluxations and for which there is no mainstream medical support, can interfere with the nervous system and result in diminished health" This is very clearly a statement repoting a chiropractic claim, it's not an assertion about the truth of the claim, merely a statement that this is what chiropractic contends. Except chiropractic clearly does not contend that there is no mainstream scientific support for this. I am reverting your edit here because your change makes the sentence nonsenicalGleng 13:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"There is no mainstream medical support for this contention and chiropractic vertebral subluxation is thus distinguished from medical subluxation" I'm really having trouble making any sense at all of this insertion, as the paragraph as worded and feel it has no place in the lead; I have trouble because the paragraph asserts a tautological truth; if there is a misalignment it will certainly cause problems; what is controversial is not this, but whether in fact such misalignments are commonly the causes of reported symptoms.Gleng 17:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This is probably a good spot to differentiate the difference between the scientific view and medical view of chiropractic. --Dematt 00:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I worked with it and came up with this. It is accurate, isn't it?

• "There is no mainstream medical support for this contention and chiropractic vertebral subluxation is thus distinguished from medical subluxation"

versus

• Though scientists suggest there is low level evidence supporting this contention, mainstream medicine does not believe that vertebral subluxations affect general health and differentiates it from the medical use of the term subluxation.

--Dematt 00:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Stuff related to safety

I'm looking to integrate some new information related to safety issues with chiropractic from NHS. It basically evaluates some of the methods that were used in coming up with some of the studies. We should probably work through this together so keep an eye on me. Thanks --Dematt 00:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, finished. I copy edited the whole thing and made some small changes. I think it says the same thing and handles all the issues in a NPOV manner. But I also realize I am capable of missing something important so feel free to make more additions or change something back. --Dematt 04:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Homola: It is hard I think to sustain the thesis that Homola is not a notable critic; a Google search gives over 9000 hits, he has published in peer reviewed journals and written 12 books, and is identified on the ACA site for instance as a prominent critic. I haven't yet been able to do a citation search on his published articles, am happy to do so if anyone thinks this is critical. I think though that by a long way he meets WP criteria for notability. It is true that his book can be accessed via chirobase; I don't know that this can be called an ad for his book in any disreputable sense as the book is freely available. Homola has written other very powerful and concise critiques in V RS accessible sources, so it might be that one of these might even be a better alternative, it's not for me only to judge. The book as cited, apart from Keating's review gets a very positive mention in the Scientific American site; I can look for more reviews. The bottom line I think is this - should Homola get a mention at least va a link because he is such a well known critic? I think the answer is probably yes. Then, if not the book, then what. Or if not Homola, then what more powerful, more notable critical link should be put in its place? Come on guys, I've been praising you to the skies totally sincerely for you record of NPOV. Make all the article as strong as it can be.Gleng 18:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC) P.S. This might be the answer: Gleng 18:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Gleng. I think we can definitely use Homola (and that article) to represent the Reform POV. IMO we need to be able to present the straight, mixer and reform POVs without making any judgements about any of them. Chiropractic is given direction by the actions and reactions of all of them. If we neglect one, this article would not be a true representation of chiropractic. I would always assume good faith in editing toward this end and be careful not to appear to advocate any particular POV. If any of my edits head that way, please feel free to bring them to the talk page. --Dematt 01:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I concure Dematt, what if we had a paragraph covering "Notable criques within the profession"? I am thinking of either a paragraph or in the links section. If in a paragraph, their main overlapping points can be made...it might eliminate some of the "battle of the links" currently going on.  :) Any thoughts?--Hughgr 03:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank goodness you feel that way:) I just wrote a new Reform section (before I saw this). Let me know what you think. It is just a start, but I think it wil work. --Dematt 03:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Gleng and Dematt for your reasoned suggestions. At this point, I am concerned with the ‘Critiques’ section. It seems that it has been inflated disproportionately compared to other sections with links. The section could now be called ‘Why a disgruntled retired chiropractor doesn’t like chiropractic and never will.’ by Samual Homola

The book and many of Homola’s so-called Luther-like musings can be found on his very biased privately owned site Chirobase (donations accepted) as can other skeptical (code word: bigoted) ‘essays’ and opinions. So this one link should do the trick. I still have an issue with the links in this section that lead to dozens of opportunities to get hit up for donations that benefit one ex-psychiatrist at the expense of compromising an encyclopedic endeavour. IMO, while Homola may be a critic, he is not that notable and has not really contributed anything to chiropractic except to let everyone know that he is retired now and has been pissed off for a long time. His books may have earned him lots of bucks, but I don’t see where he has plowed that into donations to research, schools, improved treatments, etc.

Keating writes with a very professional ability and one of his essays would reflect his views nicely. And there are NO links soliciting donations! Bravo!

The “Skeptic Dictionary” is a dreadful therapy session for a PhD (Piled high and Deep! ; - ) who put together a list of the things that he can’t stand. Oh, and what a surprise! There are a dozen or so links to Stephen Barrett Enterprises. (Donations accepted) Do you see a pattern here?

I do hope we can reign in this out-of-control section. More is not always better. Let’s trim the fat. Otherwise, where will it end? Steth 04:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I took a look at the critiques section again and I think Steth has a point. I am not as concerned about the particular links, but the shear number of Keating links just looks funny. Most of the articles say very similar things. Perhaps we could narrow the list somewhat. I think it would also be appropriate to add some positive articles (that aren't necessarily associations) from some notable sites as well. Any other suggestions to clean it up? --Dematt 04:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC) (Oops- sorry about the It Works! link - I clicked on it and didn't see McAndrews name and thought the link must have been a left over from a previous edit)--Dematt 04:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't doubt that you have some good points; I also agree that more is not necessarily better, what matters is what is better. Looking at the links I think that "The Specter of Dogma - Joseph C. Keating, Jr., PhD" doesn't add much, and I propose eliminating that. I am indifferent to the Skeptics dictionary link, would be very open to replacing this with a different V RS. On Homola, I feel that the way forward will be to create a bio for him with a link, and then the explicit links to his works will be redundant here. Pending that, I suggest we leave those here for the present, but maybe it will be possible to start at least a stub for Homola quickly. I wholly agree that critiques need not be wholly critical, and would welcome the addition of constructive criticism. I think I see the present list as being dominated by criticism that is informed, well argued and intended as constructive. Gleng 08:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The skeptics dictionary item I'd be very happy to dispense with as I think the content is pretty weak. How about this as an alternative to it?

Second thoughts maybe not appropriate, but any suggestions?Gleng 13:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you have second thoughts? Professor Edzard Ernst is very notable, especially since he is "the first Professor of Complementary Medicine in the United Kingdom." He is also trained in manipulative therapy, among other things. -- Fyslee 18:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

He is certainly notable. My second thoughts were only whether this item is really a reasoned critique - and the events referred to are already covered. I just thought we could probably do better.Gleng 18:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Gleng, if you feel that the "Skeptic's Dictionary" should be removed, then why don't you remove it? I have felt all along that it was nothing more than a list of things a PhD dislikes, not very encyclopedic. It is also a link farm for Stephen Barrett Enterprises (Donations gladly accepted!) And because it was placed here and defended strongly by an editor with a personal link featured prominently, that it really fails the smell test and should be removed as unverifiable. I have given you the reasons, so, why not remove it? Steth 02:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Notable Link/source

NCCAM Research Report: About Chiropractic and Its Use in Treating Low-Back Pain - Gleng 19:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractic curing homosexuality?

Would editors please note the chiropractic related discussion on the Pseudoscience article. If it is true that chiropractic is notably claimed to cure homosexuality then perhaps it should be included somewhere on this page.Gleng 12:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Why would anyone want to cure homosexuality? Although, if chiropractors can "cure" it, it certainly should be included on this page:) --Dematt 14:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

From the reference section at Pseudoscience, the source is titled Ford, J. (2001). Healing homosexuals: A psychologist's journey through the ex-gay movement and the pseudo-science of reparative therapy. Journal of Gay & Lesbian Psychotherapy, 5(3-4), 69-86. Sounds like an account of some of the crazy things that people in the ex-gay movement do. They may use Chevrolets to kidnap their victims and try to deprogram them, but that doesn't mean Chevrolet in general supports the movement. This just seems like more POV pushing from editor KrishnaVindaloo and is without merit as a source for anything other than an anecdotal account. cheers, Jim Butler 02:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Introducing criticism in a constructive way

Pursuing the theme of introducing criticism in a constructive way from a variety of angles - how about this as an option for the critiques? Gleng 19:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

That article, "Critical thinking" by Dr. Christopher Kent, is an interesting one. With the exception of this very telling paragraph in the middle, it's quite good. But the paragraph is consistent with the author's usual thinking:

"The "high rollers" in our profession should give serious consideration to contributing generously to chiropractic research. So should any D.C. interested in the survival of the profession. Please note that I said chiropractic research. This means research concerning the vertebral subluxation and its effects, not the symptomatic treatment of sore backs.

IOW, he still believes in the VS without evidence, and wants chiropractic research to focus on proving it. This isn't critical thinking, but confirmation bias led by true believer thinking.

Since this article is very typical, it's probably a good choice for a new section of links - "Encouragements to find proof that we're right." (Excuse the sarcasm, but I just couldn't resist.)

Homola criticizes Kent and the very subject of Kent's article, which is SEMG:

• Dubious Use of Surface Electromyography (SEMG)

-- Fyslee 19:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to find some very good constructive criticism, try the links provided here:

• G. Douglas Andersen, DC - An Exceptional Chiropractor

Andersen is a regular columnist for Dynamic Chiropractic, and he has written a number of excellent articles which I have listed. Very specific criticisms and suggestions. -- Fyslee 19:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking through these. I think though that critiques links should cover a range of opinion, and we shouldn't expect all to agree with each other on all issues - there's a spectrum that needs reporting.

Another to think about... . Gleng 20:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

That article - Subluxation - The Silent Killer, by Ronald Carter, DC, MA is a good example from the JCCA, which has a number of excellent articles to choose from. We just need to compile a list of courageous chiros and professors who have the guts to criticize abuses and to point to solutions:

• Joseph Joseph Keating Jr., PhD

• Samuel Homola, DC

• G. Douglas Andersen, DC

• Timothy Mirtz, DC

• Stephen M. Perle, DC

• James Winterstein, DC

• JC Smith, DC

• Charles A. Bender, DC

• David Seaman, DC

• Jaroslaw Grod, DC

• David Sikorski, DC

• Charles DuVall, DC

• Randy Ferrance, DC, MD

• Preston Long, DC

• Randall Lord, DC

• Ronald Carter, DC, MA

to name a few.... -- Fyslee 20:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It's been a long time since I read that article. It contains an excellent quote:

Know your enemy

The direction of this paper will now examine and discuss the chaos “subluxation” has created in different contingencies of the chiropractic profession. It may well be the silent killer of the chiropractic profession. Understanding this threat will enable you to know our enemy. (Beware of the enemy for he is us.)

Do you find yourself asking: Why is there so much division in our profession? We all share the desire to be successful, to help people, to have the respect of our peers, to have the love of our families etc. Certainly how we define one word, subluxation, should not create these emotions which divide the profession. Its more than a word, it represents belief systems, different philosophies, it challenges our ethics, it provides the different factions an issue to fight about. Our own justification of this word allows us to keep, and observe our peers breaking, the Eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not take advantage of the sick." From: Subluxation - The Silent Killer, by Ronald Carter, DC, MA, Past President, Canadian Chiropractic Association

-- Fyslee 20:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

OK I've modified critique links in the hope that I've interpreted provisional consensus. Think the principles we should follow are these: 1) We don't endorse criticism, but we report it and give the reader the opportunity to read for himself/herself. Thus we report criticism about e.g. a) the willingness of some chiropractors to accept low standards of evidence for reports of efficacy (Kent), b) maintaining faith in the concept of subluxation despite weak evidence (Carter) c) irresponsible use of advertising, etc but there is no need to imply that this article endorses any of these criticisms. 2) We report criticism from a variety of sources, rather than select a single critical "consensus" to report 3) We show that there is criticism from outside the profession, but also that there is a lot of self-criticism within the profession.

I am sensitive about this section because it should offer ready access to good sources of critical opinion, but should not "shout too loud". I personally think that the expression of robust healthy criticism from within the profession is itself a substantial implicit rebuttal of the attack elsewhere of chiropractic as dominated by dogma and pseudoscientific, and a demonstration of acute ethical sensibilities. I am removing Skeptics dictionary not in deference to pov but as a frank opinion of mine that it's not a particularly good authoritative or informative source, and that in context it is redundant. I think with a Homola link the references to his work here should be reduced. On the issue of "shouting too loud", the titles of some of the works are a bit "yellow press". One alternative might be to suppress the titles but introduce each link with its unique subject of criticism. e.g.

Critism of:

• the concept of subluxation (link)
• ethical standards in advertising (link)
• standards of evidence in support of claims of efficacy (link), etc.

Just a suggestion. I have to leave you guys for a while now - be back sometime Gleng 08:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Gleng, I agree that having the words Quackery and Cultism at the bottom of the page screams no matter how we re-arrange them. I like the idea of at least listing them without the title and describe them by their subject. I'll give it a try. --Dematt 02:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, you responded with this edit summary:

• It may look nice, but it's a very dangerous and far-reaching precedent. What are we afraid of here?

That is a very good question. I'm not sure "fear" is the word I would choose, but certainly "concerned about" is appropriate. I am concerned that the titles themselves "shout" quackery and cultism without them even reading the article. By using the titles in this manner, it leads to revert wars and hard feelings. If we are going to be able to get this article to the point where it can be read by all, it has to be stable. I'm not saying that chiropractic does not have issues that may be considered quackery (we may even one day be able to handle them in the article), but we won't be able to discuss them if they are deleted all the time. And that is not just by regular editors on this page, that would be by any chiropractor (straight/mixer/reformer or satisfied patient) that stopped by. We can still have the articles without drawing attention to the critical nature of the labeled issue (i.e. advertising, etc.). Yes, it is a precedent, but it may solve several problems that occur on lots of pages. I understand it can be dangerous and far reaching, and that is why it needs to be evaluted carefully. If anyone can make it work, it would be us here on the chiropractic page, then we might be able to use it elsewhere. A long term solution is going to have to be creative. What do you think? --Dematt 14:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

If it weren't for the fact that it was Dematt that did it, this edit could be interpreted as revisionism. It certainly goes a long way towards accomplishing the suppressionist goals of certain editors who wouldn't hesitate to scrub the whole Critiques section if they could get away with it, and thus this edit inadvertently helps them to some degree. It is blatent POV suppresion. Such a tampering in the external links is an unheard of step, setting a dangerous precedent. No where else here is this type of thing allowed.

There are guidelines for external links, and these sentences are to the point:

• "If you link to another website, you should give your reader a good summary of the site's contents, and the reasons why this specific website is relevant to the article in question."

An example:

• NESS Participates in the Randi Psychic Challenge - Describes the type of testing done for the One million dollar challenge

Here we have a description, but no tampering with the actual title, especially to obscure it or enhance it! That type of editing would be POV suppressing or POV pushing, depending on whether it is obscuring or enhancing.

I think following the Misplaced Pages guidelines above would be a helpful service to readers, without deliberately hiding existing POV, which is very unwikipedian. Even the heading itself is already accomplishing much of the suggestion above, so detailed descriptions of each link aren't even necessary. People are being forwarned when they look there. It won't affect their POV. Chiropractic believers will look at the Critiques section and just shrug it off as the rantings of fanatics, and skeptics will look at the Advocacy section as the place to find sources for examples of weird ideas and attacks on medicine, vaccinations, and science. -- Fyslee 16:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, you know I totally respect your POV and thank you for understanding that this effort has nothing to do with being deletionist or revisionist, though Steth, I respect your POV as well and appreciate your restraint. I'm trying to keep information from getting deleted. All the information is still there, just more neutrally presented. --Dematt 16:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand your motivation, so don't worry about what I think of you. My concern is about the last two words - "neutrally presented." NPOV is not about neutralizing anything, but about not appearing to support or suppress any particular POV. They should be presented as they are, in all their POV gore and glory (which will be interpreted by one's existing POV). The article and its resources shouldn't turn readers into spineless wimps who end up having no definite POV about chiropractic. They should be presented with all POV so strongly and clearly that they become more informed by this article than by any other article they have or ever will read. Then they can have an informed POV. Neutralizing shouldn't be a part of the article or of the links. -- Fyslee 17:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I like Dematt's approach. Personally, I think that both "sides" benefit from this. The reader is given access to criticism in a clear organised way that doesn't imply endorsement of the criticism, and doesn't entail publishing what might appear to be rather offensive statements at least out of context. The critical articles themselves are very much more measured and balanced that the titles seem to suggest; book titles often have a sensationalist tinge that frankly can wrongly predispose the reader to think that they are yellow journalism. This section as Dematt has laid it out looks to be what we should aim it to be, a thoughtful and balanced selection of excellent sources for the interested reader to find out more. Nobody surely wants people to draw conclusions, pro or con, from titles alone, but should encourage them to read and find the facts for themselves. So, IMO, I'm very strongly in favour; it seems a good way of neutrally opening access to sources of different viewpoints, and a way that other good sources can be added if appropriate without overburdening the article; this removes some of the burden of selection, which will always be tricky, and the organisation ensures that issues are mentioned and covered. My vote is strongly pro this change.Gleng 16:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I don't think neutral presentation is the right way to look at this; more rationally presented is the aim I think. It could be argued both ways, identifying the issues clearly and coolly gives the criticisms respect; not flashing potentially misleading headlines treats us all with respect. If I thought this was about suppressing dissent I would oppose; I think the opposite, it's about finding a away of introducing it coollyGleng 18:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

To expand slightly: to my eye a title like "Chiropractic is quackery" declares an opinion clearly, but actually doesn't look like something you'd read for a balanced appraisal. Some of these titles are clearly intentionally provocative presented to a chiropractic audience, and contain very thoughtful constructive and balanced criticism. Look at the title alone, you don't see it, see the context and you realise that these aren't rants. Judge a book by its content not its cover. Do we want people to read these, or do we just want people to register the existence of dissent?Gleng 11:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like this article to be something that a chiropractor can look at and read and learn something about his own profession. I certainly did not know some of this information and this entire experience has been very enlightening for me. But, if I had first read this page and saw Quackery, Pseudoscience, Cultism shouting at me, I would assume it was just another uninformed attack and moved on to something less threatening. If it is presented in a way that doesn't threaten me I will read it and, even if it ticked me off, I would learn from it. Hopefully, maybe it will help get through to some of those crazy advertisers. Chiropractors, more than anybody, need to read this stuff, too. I am open to anything that might help get this information out in a less threatening way. --Dematt 12:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You both make some good points and I sympathize to some degree. In another sense they aren't legitimate, because the one's you're complaining about are written by chiropractors as part of internal criticism. Chiropractors have already seen this stuff, and the article is for everyone, not just DCs. Even if we revised each title, who would do it, and how would it be done? Each article often contains multiple points, which would need to be summarized in a few words. The Misplaced Pages guidelines are still useful:

• "If you link to another website, you should give your reader a good summary of the site's contents, and the reasons why this specific website is relevant to the article in question."

The way to do it is shown here without any tampering with the title:

• NESS Participates in the Randi Psychic Challenge - Describes the type of testing done for the One million dollar challenge.

The heading (Advocacy or Critiques) is often sufficient to serve as a description of why the article has been chosen. -- Fyslee 20:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You both make the point that hits the nail on the head. These articles were not written for public viewing, they were meant as food for thought for chiropractors. Have we thought about the fact that since these articles were written, they may have had the effect that the authors intended and now we are bringing up old housecleaning and labeling it as internal conflict. Yes, this is a good example that shows that there is internal dialogue to correct behavior and encourage critical thinking, which is a necessary endeavor for advancement. Surely every organization has these debates, but only chiropractic displays them publicly. Is it only chiropractic that is public. The AMA ethics codes protect their own, chiropractic airs it all. That certainly shouldn't be considered a bad thing. In fact, it should be considered altruistic. Maybe we can combine the WP format with what we're considering here. Give me a minute. I'll try it on one or two, let me know what ou think. --Dematt 00:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ummmm....chiropractic isn't the only profession who displays its debates. (Where is all the information on iatrogenesis and drug side effects first published?! All the critics get it from the medical profession itself, and then make it look like the profession is ignoring or hiding it.)

Chiropractic debates just happen to be of a very different nature than debates in other medical professions. This is because of the various types of internal division related to science/antiscience, quackery, practice building, advertising, philosophy, etc.. The language (often personal and vulgar attacks with lots of misspellings) is also uniquely different. Other professions have other types of debates. Chiropractic (which is more than the official profession, but includes chiropractors, their discussion lists and their websites) also censors debates on many discussion lists. But, debate and dissension is more accepted now than earlier, and that is a sign of progress. True believers will still react viscerally, personally, and viciously, while more informed and scientifically oriented chiros are reacting with well-reasoned and better resourced debate forms, with fewer logical errors. The more modern debates are often more informative, depending on the forum. -- Fyslee 08:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I did three of them What do you think? Are we on the right track? --Dematt 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Magisterial Dematt. My respects. I would like to think that the article at the end is indeed one that can be considered good and fair by both critics and supporters of chiropractic. I still have a gut feeling that nobody should be forced to publicise a statement that they may see as a libel when they can make the content open and accessible without doing so, but I respect Fyslee's point, there are precedents here, and what might work here might be seen as a precedent for disguising or suppressing criticism, which is absolutely not anyone's intention. Personally, Dematt's suggestion is fine by me. Another alternative might be to summarise the annotations in a short paragraph and simply incorporate the references as links in the normal way. Whatever. On this issue though, I hope this can be settled by agreement not by simple majority vote; it is a case when all sides need to feel happy with the outcome. I'm not saying Fyslee should have a veto, but that if he's not convinced, then perhaps we've not got it right.Gleng 09:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Gleng, I am good with your edits. I can live with that. Fyslee, thanks for your input. Are you satisfied with it? And Steth, does it work for you? --Dematt 12:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Dematt, my hat is off to you for your admirable efforts! It is more informative without setting any kind of potentially dangerous precedent. It's certainly an unusual approach, which can create a future battleground for editors who wish to emphasize different aspects in the articles or documents, but I'm certainly fine with the way you have done it, simply because you understand the NPOV policy and are attempting to cover the "subject" of chiropractic as thoroughly as possible. (This article is not about the "profession" or "chiropractors," but about anything and everything - past, present and future - that has to do with the "subject" of chiropractic, regardless of POV. This point evades those who wish to turn the article into a sales brochure to be sold from a Misplaced Pages soapbox.)

There is something I've come to realize, and that is that the "Internal criticism" heading is somewhat misleading. The criticism isn't all really "internal" criticism, but is criticism from chiropractic insiders, who sometimes are forced to publish their views outside of the profession, and whose views are pretty much universally (with few exceptions) denounced within the profession. That can't properly be considered "Internal criticism." Even some of it published in Dynamic Chiropractic is viciously attacked in the Letters to the Editor section, but it still does affect some chiros, who become polarized more towards reform. Some of them then come to Chirotalk, where they can express their frustrations without getting banned, which happens on nearly all other chiropractic discussion lists. Not all "internal criticism" from chiropractors is well-received or tolerated.

Therefore I suggest another heading: "Insider criticism." This doesn't imply anything about whether it's normal internal discussion that is accepted and leads to reform, or outright attacks by chiropractic rebels who have no recourse but to go outside to vent their views. It also covers different types of authors, and thus isn't limited only to DCs. That includes professors and researchers who are or have been employed by the profession. The "External criticism" heading still functions fine. -- Fyslee 08:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Professional?

Fyslee, your edit summary stated,Prof. sounds nice, but they are a blend - all being chiropractic; Uniform formatting), which of these are not "professional"?

• American Chiropractic Association (ACA)
• Association of Chiropractic Colleges (ACC)
• British Chiropractic Association (BCA)
• Canadian Chiropractic Association (CCA)
• Chiropractic Association of South Africa (CASF)
• Chiropractic Doctors' Association of Hong Kong (CDAHK)
• European Chiropractors' Union (ECU)
• Federation of Straight Chiropractors and Organizations (FSCO)
• Foundation for the Advancement of Chiropractic Education (F.A.C.E.)
• Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research (FCER)
• Hong Kong Chiropractors' Association (HKCA)
• International Chiropractic Pediatric Association (ICPA)
• International Chiropractors Association (ICA)
• Japanese Association of Chiropractors (JAC)
• National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM)
• World Chiropractic Alliance (WCA)
• World Federation of Chiropractic (WFC)

Thanks--Hughgr 20:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstood you. I was thinking of membership organizations, as in national associations. Not all of them are for that purpose. Fyslee 21:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

A division

To make it more clear what the list contains, I suggest a division. Let's see how it looks, and if it will work:

Official national organizations

• World Federation of Chiropractic (WFC) - International
• American Chiropractic Association (ACA)
• British Chiropractic Association (BCA)
• Canadian Chiropractic Association (CCA)
• Chiropractic Association of South Africa (CASF)
• Chiropractic Doctors' Association of Hong Kong (CDAHK)
• European Chiropractors' Union (ECU)
• Hong Kong Chiropractors' Association (HKCA)
• Japanese Association of Chiropractors (JAC)

Special interest groups and associations

• Association of Chiropractic Colleges (ACC)
• Federation of Straight Chiropractors and Organizations (FSCO)
• Foundation for the Advancement of Chiropractic Education (F.A.C.E.)
• Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research (FCER)
• International Chiropractic Pediatric Association (ICPA)
• International Chiropractors Association (ICA)
• National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM)
• World Chiropractic Alliance (WCA)

How's that look? -- Fyslee 21:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that would work because most in the first groups titles have the word "associations" which creates confusion. I did a quick check on the WCA's website because of their title (World..) and it states, "The World Chiropractic Alliance was founded in 1989 as a non-profit organization dedicated to protecting and strengthening chiropractic around the world." Wouldn't that make them international as well? Why don't you like calling them all just professional? BTW, professional derives from profession which means, "An occupation that requires expertise or a high level of skill." . I feel that fits perfectly.--Hughgr 21:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

While it looks good, and I don't have any trouble with changing the top one to "Professional organizations", I'm quite sure the ACA would love it, but the ICA would really take offense to it;) --Dematt 00:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It requires what could be considered OR to determine who really is an official national organization, when several make the claim (Hong Kong?), and the WCA, an advertising agency with a few hundred members (about the same as the NACM) and secret membership lists does call itself "World" CA. I guess it's an impossible task, so Professional (which also means money making, which doesn't apply to several) will have to do. You're right about the ICA, since they carry the torch of "real" chiropractic.....;-) There is certainly no love lost between them. How about restoring the original "Chiropractic organizations"? That certainly covers it and it worked fine, since it can include national organizations, research and advertising groups, special interest groups, etc.. It worked fine and was never controversial. -- Fyslee 07:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The lead, again :)

This sentence:

"Mainstream medicine does not believe that such vertebral subluxations exist or affect general health, thus differentiating them from the medical use of the term subluxation."

Is using weasle words to avoid. For example, "Mainstream scholars/scientists/researchers...", or "The (mainstream) scientific community". While mainstream medicine isn't explicitly listed, I feel it meets the same criteria. Further more, it is an anthropomorphism, mainstream medicine can't believe anything. And while I get the sentiment, I feel it needs to be re-worded. Any suggestions?--Hughgr 04:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes of course you're absolutely right and the sentence as written is gibberish; I guess the intent would be to assert that "In conventional medicine, such vertebral subluxations are not thought to be a common cause of many illnesses."??I really am going now for a while.Gleng 08:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Gleng, I think that is getting there. Does anyone else have any input?--Hughgr 21:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the weasel words (though I think they were mine:). Also, "thus" infers that one caused the other which would not be proper. If anything, I like Glengs version. Though, it really doesn't matter if that sentence just stays out. The science factor is mentioned at the bottom or the page. --Dematt 22:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Abotnick regarding NACM

I moved the discussion to this area to find it easier.

steth wrote>Hi Abotnick. Could you point us to the source for this claim. Maybe a membership list. Otherwise unverifiable. Determined that most reformers not members.)

Abotnick replied:

What do you mean most reformers are not members? The platform stated on their website is the only reform message of any chiropractic organization. Their membership list is not available, try contacting them and ask for statistics. You are really picking nits here to try to keep NACM from being mentioned in the body and it's very immature. Just because you don't like their position doesn't give you the right to censor them from the body.

NACM is a legitimate chiropractic organization and does represent the reform chiropractors. They have a discussion group and a website. I previously added a line to them in the reform section but someone snipped it out. I ask that this be restored in fairness to the group.Abotnick 20:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Abotnick, I am not sure why you decided to now answer a question I posed in July, but maybe this will help you.

I don't feel it should be included in the article at all, but a link under 'Organizations' is more than adequate. My reasons are that real organizations have officers and elections, hold meetings, seminars, etc., and usually have some kind of directory of the members/officers. Otherwise it is just a secret club, hardly notable and not verifiable.

As for the website, well anyone can have a website. It is only one page and looks like it hasn't changed in a long time. I am also skeptical about this so-called 'organization' because of the four links at the bottom of the page, three are owned by Stephen Barrett Enterprises (donations gladly accepted!). He of course is the Supreme Commander of the anti-chiropractic fundamentalist extremists brigade. Now what kind of real chiropractic organization would promote that!?

So Abotnick, can you confirm any of the above? Who are the officers, members, when are elections, seminars, etc.? There seems to be no information regarding these points available on the internet.

You know, I was going to leave yours and Fyslee's additions of NACM alone, but now that you are bringing this up and reminding me of why it fails the smell test, I think references to NACM should be removed as unverifiable. BTW are you a member? Are you connected in some way with this 'organization'? I believe Fyslee mentioned that he is their internet discussion moderater, a fact which if true, lends itself to the personal, self-interest conflict issue which also fails the smell test. I think there is a WP policy about this. Does anyone know the specifics on this?

Does that answer your question? Steth 18:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I really am gone but come on Steth, sometimes your sharpness is spot on and refreshingly blunt, (and sometimes well aimed) but we ALL have interests and we ALL try to maintain objectivity in our own ways despite this, and usually in the end we manage. Yes Fyslee has a role we all know about and you do and I do and none of us here hide those, Fyslee discusses here civilly openly and listens, what more can we ask? Gleng 19:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Gleng, I guess I should have been more clear. The interests I was referring to were the links to websites that editors add to articles when those same editors are in some way involved or connected to those websites. The editors I cited above have added many links that fall into this category and should probably be examined. Editors like you, Dematt, Levine, myself, etc. have never added links that we have had an iterest in. I hope that is more clear. Steth 22:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Reform sentence

I have two concerns with this sentence:

• Later the reform group, the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine, was formed, but it has never grown very large or made any significant impact on the profession.

1. I have to check, but did the NACM form "later"(after Homola)?
2. "never grown large or made any significant impact on the profession"

If no significant impact, we shouldn't be writing about it. If we are giving it the credit for the pressure to become more scientific, then that is a pretty big impact, right? Which way does our information point us? If we want to get this right, who gets the credit for the science, ICA or ACA or NACM? Or are we performing OR. We probably need to sit back and work on it. Any input? --Dematt 20:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly my point, Dematt. The so-called 'organizaation' (even though it doesn't seem to be organized) NACM, has made no impact whatsoever. This is because they have never held a seminar or produced any scientific research or studies on anything that I know of or ever heard of. If anything, the ACA has had a far greater impact through scientific seminars and symposiums. They have also been major contributors to the FCER (Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research) which is engaged in many scientific studies at any given moment by giving grants to scholars at school research centers.

So why write about the NCAM at all? I have said this all along. It doesn't belong in the main body. A link at the bottom is more than generous. Steth 22:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In the context of this section, I may have inadvertently been using OR and made a leap in suggesting that Homola had anything to do with chiropractic's direction turning toward science. I sure wouldn't mind if someone could find anything to that effect. Steth, you make a good point about the FCER and research. Maybe we need to investigate what happened between 1960 and 1970 and see what happened. Homola and Keating should both have something along those lines and then we can look into FCER history, etc. Lets see if we can tell where it all came from. Don't forget there is National college, Joe Janse, and Canadian MCC began to make the jump toward science. Keep in mind that also the US was in turmoil through that period (Kennedy assassinations, Martin Luther King, Vietnam, Kent State, Sex/Drugs/and Rock and Roll - you know - the good ole days:), so apparently there was a renewed interest in anything that was not considered authoritarian or from "The Man." Let me know what anybody finds. --Dematt 23:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Dematt has two concerns with this sentence:

• Later the reform group, the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine, was formed, but it has never grown very large or made any significant impact on the profession.

Dematt: 1. I have to check, but did the NACM form "later"(after Homola)?

Fyslee: I believe Homola has stated that he is a member of the NACM, which was started much later than 1963 (in 1984).

Dematt: 2. "never grown large or made any significant impact on the profession"

Fyslee: That sentence is mine, and I see it can be misunderstood, since it's from my POV as a skeptic, and from the POV of some reformers in the profession who are disheartened by the lack of progress towards reform and the continued persecution of reformers. Subluxationism is still alive and kicking, so they have a hard time seeing much reform.

To reformers, Homola, NACM, and critics, reform is what happens as a positive reacton to the calls for rejection of Palmerian philosophy and belief in the vertebral subluxation. The calls are part of the reform efforts, but until they succeed in causing open rejection from the top and all the way down, not much reform is actually happening, and therefore the reform efforts haven't had much visible success.

Yet one could speak of a form for success, in that these calls for reform have gotten more chiropractors to individually drop those beliefs, and more chiropractors to cease to perform research to proof a metaphysical concept, and instead to do research to find out what actually happens when a joint is manipulated. This requires using scientific language, instead of old philosophical hypotheses. Progress will always happen, but reform will take a revolution of major consequences, since openly rejecting the VS as the foundation of the profession effectively exposes the whole foundation as an illusion. -- Fyslee 21:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide something to back up your statement:

"...these calls for reform have gotten more chiropractors to individually drop those beliefs, and more chiropractors to cease to perform research to proof a metaphysical concept, and instead to do research to find out what actually happens when a joint is manipulated."

How do you know this has happened and that NACM is responsible for this? Who is doing this research? Are they members of NACM? What research has NACM funded and carried out? FCER provides large grants to school research departments to carry out this type of research. So does the ACA. If anything, they should be given some, if not most, of the credit.

Of course, to keep things in perspective, it must be kept in mind that the above viewpoint is coming from a member of another health discipline. Steth 23:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

More than one type of reform

This comes from the NCAHF position paper on chiropractic on reformers in 1985: (Italics and bold emphasis is mine)

The Reformers

There is a small but growing number of chiropractors who recognize the failings of their profession, but sincerely believe that there is a place for chiropractic in the health marketplace. It is estimated that 70-80% of people will suffer back pain at some time in their lives. If, as studies seem to indicate, one third of these can find more rapid relief by having safe, conservative manipulative therapy, then there appears to be a large market for the services of scientifically oriented chiropractors. Further, a national study of health practices found that three-fourths of chiropractic patients seek relief from musculo-skeletal problems. (42) This means that a minority seek the type of treatments found in the plethora of nonsense practiced by the chiropractor/naturopaths. If chiropractic were to purge itself of its quackery and offer valid back care, it could expect a substantial increase in physician referrals.

One small faction of reformist chiropractors is conducting and publishing meaningful research in the field of manipulative therapy. This group is not openly critical of chiropractic's shortcomings and has not agitated for outright repudiation of the "subluxation" theory. They apparently seek to change chiropractic by evolution, bypassing the theory by ignoring it or applying the term "subluxation" to a number of spinal aberrations in a general manner. It is NCAHF's view that these chiropractors are too greatly outnumbered and overshadowed by practitioners profiting from pseudoscience to effectively change chiropractic in this manner.

A more progressive-minded group has formed the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM), a professional association with views which are in harmony with science and consumer protection. Using guidelines set forth by the NCAHF Task Force on Chiropractic, NACM has openly renounced the "subluxation" theory and unscientific practices. Members limit their scope of practice to neuro musculo-skeletal conditions, and its modes of treatment to those which have scientific validity. NACM does not present itself as an alternative health care system to medical science.

This is what I was remembering. The first group this NCAHF paper is talking about is Joe Janse from National, those who started the JMPT (and others); Dana Lawrence, John Triano and the Texas Back Institute, and others from other mixer colleges. The second group is the NACM, who cooperated with the NCAHF and first made news when they announced that they wanted to prescribe certain drugs. They were not welcomed with open arms to say the least, particularly since they openly criticized the entire profession and alienated any potential allies. Fyslee, this is the group that you are talking about, and you are right, they have not made much of an impact and are at the other fringe. But, I think the first group is the group that the ACA and the silent majority have been moving toward since 1990 (right after the Wilk suit - even asked Homola back in 1991 - and remember ACA legal counsel George McAndrews letter in 1992). In other words, this particular reform movement was not renouncing subluxation, but researching it, which is what most chiropractors want according to the survey we have cited. I still think people like Homola (back in the 1960s) influenced these people indirectly to "prove what they preached." Along with the Wilk suit, which forced DCs to really look at the science behind their practices. After all, had it not been for Workers comp research and other testimony that forced the AMA to admit there was research that supported that chiropractic was better for some conditions, Wilk probably would not have won. As as additional note however, I think a lot of these same people have since begun advocating dropping subluxation. The question is if any of these people are members of the NACM, which we apparently will never know. --Dematt 23:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's pretty much my understanding too. There are those who seek scientific validation of the subluxation theory and perform research to those ends; those who seek to bring the profession away from its former antiscientific attitudes; those who already have dropped attempting to prove subluxations, but seek to perform research to find out what really happens when a joint is manipulated; and those who openly denounce subluxationism, vitalism, and innate intelligence as the foundation of the profession, because they see them as detrimental to the profession's progress and acceptance, and because they consider them to be unscientific holdovers from the "old days," which are used to justify misuse of manipulation, the creation and use of a myriad of quack devices (like the Activator), and all kinds of outright quackish and nonsensical practices and claims, including the whole practice building thinking, with lifetime treatment of asymptomatic individuals and their families (Flesia). -- Fyslee 04:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Smith link

Apologies guys, the link to the Smith reference doesn't work (it did once, honest, and I did read it Steth ;)). However now I can't confirm it or amplify it. Suggest if we can't find an on-line access we find an alternative. Can anyone help?Gleng 11:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It works fine now. -- Fyslee 07:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Mainstream medicine

Mainstream medicine sounds so good and says a lot, but it as Hughgr suggests, it is a weasel word that is unverifiable. --Dematt 14:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Burden of proof. The principle is simple; an assertion needs V RS; you do not need V RS to eliminate an unsupported assertion. Gleng 15:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Perversion of WP principles to argue this line. Pls quote chapter and verse of policy if you disagree. I'm putting it back. Mccready 16:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

WP: RS "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question, and any unsourced material may be removed by any editor." In this case the statement in the lead declares the premise of chiropractic - i.e. its core assuption. This statement does not assert the validity of that assumption, only that chiropractors have it. Challenging its validity at this point in the text is inappropriate as you're challenging something not asserted. If you wish to argue at an appropriate place that medicine or science does not support this premise, fine, if it's not already covered, do so with V RSGleng 16:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Mccready accuses me of anti-science here. So let me spell this out very clearly. The statement as made in the lead at present is “Chiropractic's premise is that spinal joint misalignments, which chiropractors call vertebral subluxations, can interfere with the nervous system and result in diminished health.” This seems an unobjectionable and wholly accurate statement. However if Mccready wants a V RS for it then can someone please like to point him to any statement of chiropractic philosophy and beliefs. The statement does not assert that the premise is in fact true. However, the statement as posed is not only true it is tautologically true. Reduce the sentence by eliminating subsidiary clauses and it becomes: “spinal joint misalignments can interfere with the nervous system and result in diminished health.” As it happens, although the truth of this is not asserted, it is obviously true. This statement can be criticised, as it has been (and see ongoing discussion), on the grounds that in fact chiropractors believe more than this, and believe that subluxations are the cause of many diseases. In some of these additional claims chiropractic indeed is in dispute with many in conventional medicine. However, this is not what the sentence says or appears to say at present.Gleng 16:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll work on a reference. --Dematt 17:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Found Association of Chiropractic Colleges definition of subluxation that states something close. If you want, we can just quote them directly, leave it as is, or look for another source that is acceptable. --Dematt 18:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Your parsing is incorrect since it removes ref to vert subluxation. Please provide the actual words of V RS which you claim justify removal of the statement that science does not support vert subluxation. Your attempts at sophistry are trying and time wasting. Please try to edit cooperatively. Mccready 16:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC) The sentence is also incorrect because it contains an inaccuate representation of the vert sub belief as you should know. Mccready 16:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Mccready, I disagree, The subluxation sentence appears to be an accurate and NPOV statement --Dematt 18:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cancer, diabetes, infectious diseases

As per Mcready request, placing this on the talk page until a verifiable and reliable source can be found.

• All are trained to recognize signs of cancer, diabetes, and infectious diseases and refer these patients to medical physicians.

--Dematt 15:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I would think this pdf covers any questions in the USA. This is from Australia and in this somewhere from Europe, --Hughgr 17:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Hughgr, I was able to use the CCE definition and considering all the US schools are CCE accredited, that should cover it. --Dematt 21:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Where are we going

After throwing around some thoughts and ideas with Fyslee and Gleng on Fyslee's talk page, and putting together all the information that we have all brought to the table, I think we might be able to see some light at the end of the tunnel. This is what I was thinking:

• I think it is important to show that there is a scientific following that has dropped subluxation, a following that wants to prove subluxation, and a following that wants to keep it a metaphysical concept. I think this is verifiable and true (its always nice when they both work out). I think it would also include all chiropractors, unless you can think of another type group. After we have done that, we can then try to determine how large each group is and that may give us an idea of a net effect of the chiropractic "conciousness", essentially being a NPOV with all POVs represented. The problem here is that those that scream loudest may not be the majority. What do you think. --Dematt 14:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I also think it would be important not to make judgements about any particular group, at least until we have been able to fully explain that group's POV. Any input would be greatly appreciated. With all of us on the same page, we might be able to get this thing right. --Dematt 15:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

With all that in mind. Does this work in the lead:

• The conventional use of the term subluxation in medicine does not typically include any relationship to health and is therefore differentiated from chiropractic's vertebral subluxation. Not all chiropractors subscribe to the definition of subluxation, though the majority apply at least some weight to its concept. Others still believe in its original metaphysical construction.

--Dematt 15:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I like that version Dematt. So I just reverted an anon user from Australia back to yours....--Hughgr 04:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Dematt, that was a good addition. A very simple, matter-of-fact statement. One word (in bold below) might improve it:

• "The conventional use of the term subluxation in medicine does not typically include any relationship to general health, and is therefore different from chiropractic's vertebral subluxation."

A subluxation can have "health" consequences of a local nature, and if it pinches a nerve, affect the area served, but, unlike the VS, it isn't known to have general health consequences (disease, immune function, etc.) for the whole body. What do you think? If you think of another word that would do the trick, please suggest it. -- Fyslee 21:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think yours is even more correct. I'll make the change. If anyone else has a problem, please bring it to the talk page and we'll work with it till we get it right. --Dematt 01:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That works for me.--Hughgr 01:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

More Straight Mixer Clarity

I'm working to clarify the ongoing straight mixer struggles in the history section. Feel free to make some edits. --Dematt 02:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Science bits

Noticed this. DD Palmer qualified his vitalistic construct noting that knowledge of Innate Intelligence is not essential to the competent practice of chiropractic. Nothing wrong with this, but it's a non-sequitur where placed, and while no doubt correct is this really going to be understood by a reader? Gleng 08:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I like your changes!

I think your right about the DD statement int he science section. That edit really went with the table that was moved to the subluxation section. I'll see if I can fit it in up there again. --Dematt 12:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

New section

I just added some Chiropractic approach to healthcare. Feel free to add to it!

gleng revert

gleng reverted me saying I should explain on the talkpage. My edit summary was sufficient. he should not have reverted without stating reasons. I used popups to do so because it saves me 5 mins on dialup. we don't need bully boy tactics from you gareth. please do not employ them. edit cooperatively and you will gain more respect. Mccready 14:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Mccready, what was the purpose for your edits. You basically just re-arranged the sentences into a sequence that did not flow well. The intro touched on all the different facets that are explained further in the article. We can't put the entire article in the intro. Personally, I see your edit was nonsensical and created redundancy in the introduction. --Dematt 15:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

let's take this step by step so that there is no misunderstanding. your labelling and attack on me is unhelpful. First issue. Did my edits reduce redundancy? Yes or no? Mccready 15:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

No. They eliminated a point of meaning, as I explained to you on your Talk page.Gleng 15:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's try this again. Step by step and then we'll return to your point of meaning claim. Did any of my edits today on chiro remove redundancy? Yes or no? Mccready 15:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

How clear can this be. No. They instead removed a non-redundant point.Gleng 16:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It could be much clearer if you were to apply logic to your discussion. The question was did ANY of the edits, not the edits as a whole, remove redundancy? I have addressed your claim about removing a point of meaning below. Please answer the question. Mccready 16:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Gleng 2nd revert

This bullying is not helpful. Your summary claims your revert is according to talk. The talk is ongoing. Your claims are being discussed. Please stop your reverting and discuss.Mccready 15:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The modus operandi on this page, for edits that might reasonably be expected to be contentious, and that I think is pretty universally observed on this page except by you, is that the edit is discussed first, and agreement obtained, before inserting. While you do not observe this etiquette, you must expect every edit that contains a contentious point to be reverted, and indeed, I don't even propose to discuss such changes unless you can be bothered to adhere to this etiquette in future; however your last edit was in fact discussed as above and on your Talk page.Gleng 16:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Gleng comments copied from my talkpage

As stated, clearly and by other editors also, as phrased the statement stated what chiropractors believed to be the case; the V RS for the truth of this as a statement of what they believe was introduced by Dematt after I called (above) for someone to provide it. The statement did not affirm the truth of the belief, only that it was a belief.

The particular issue of the status of vertebral subluxation is not disguised, but addressed later in the article, and is I think explored in the article on vertebral subluxation, I haven't contributed to that.

Whether there is a religious fervour I don't know; I've never actually met a chiropractor. Are there good, honest chiropractors who make a coherent, intellectually honest case? I think there probably are, whether I agree with it or not, and theirs is the case that needs presenting, not a strawman caricature. The arguments of chiropractic are complex, sometimes confused and contradictory, sometimes phrased in ways that we would never phrase things. But phrased differently, many scientists might recognise many things as not even controversial. Does the body have intrinsic repair mechanisms? Certainly, a great many operating at many different levels, including DNA repair mechanisms and the immune system. Are these regulated by the nervous system? Some certainly are: neuroimmunology is a rapidly exploding field, and the power of the placebo effect itself testifies to the importance of mechanisms that we understand very poorly. Does chiropractic have a coherent scientific framework to explain these. No, not in my opinion; it has a body of empirical evidence from clinical practice, the reliability and interpretation of which is open to question. But exactly the same can be said about a very large part of conventional medicine. Often, the best we can do is evolve care systems from such an empirical basis while we develop a scientific understanding. In the meantime, we have "boxes" for things we don't fully understand, and give them names pro tem. Scientists use names like "stress" for instance; it's not meaningless, yet can't be pinned down in a wholly acceptable way.

Gleng 15:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

My response. Your first para I understand. But you have yet to provide the words of V RS which you not anyone else claims undermines my position. Your second para admits the truth was elsewhere in the article. My edit brought it to the top. On your earlier claim that I removed a meaning. You admit it was not well phrased. I rephrased it, did I not. Etiquette is for you to say why it wasn't well phrased. I'll address your earlier redundancy comment as soon as I can redial. meantime please address the issues. Succinctly if possible. Mccready 16:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Mccready, lets start in the beginning

Mccready, what is it that you don not like in the intro, maybe we can make some changes that will be acceptable to all of us. --Dematt 16:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Your latest revert was unhelpful. You have not discussed the issues. Your edit summary is erroneous -there is no consensus. Obviously the edits I have made are preferred. You fail to say what is wrong with them. You revert to a less useful version. Great stuff as usual eh? But let's take it point by point, step by step. Again. Were ANY of my edits removing redundancy? Mccready 16:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

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