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Recent revert

I reverted this edit to the lead, which was made by an anonymous ip with no edit summary. I can only guess why he feels the change is necessary, but in contrast, I think the sources are quite clear. AFAICT, agnosticism is about "knowledge", not about "justification for belief". Our article on agnosticism covers this in some detail as well. If I've missed anything, or there's some reason this change is necessary, I'd be happy to discuss it! Thanks!   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the William L. Rowe source is quite clear, "...an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in God...". The statement, "...agnosticism deals with (absence of) rational claims to asserting knowledge" is no where contained in the source. This statement actually contradicts what the source is advancing, that agnosticism "deals with (absence of) rational claims to asserting belief." The source is advancing the position that agnosticism is a valid third alternative to theism and atheism, while the current statement advances that agnosticism is not a valid third alternative. It is clearly a misrepresentation of the source.IIXVXII (talk) 00:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

It's been changed yet again, same user. I do like this new change direction but it needs to specify what agnosticism is (lack of knowledge) not just what it isn't (a matter of belief.) PrincessPimpernel (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no issues if others want to advance the view that agnosticism is not a valid third alternative, but the current source cited, is not advancing that view.IIXVXII (talk) 00:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

If you change this back again, then you are doing Original Research. No where in the citation does it imply what you want it to imply.IIXVXII (talk) 20:01, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi IIXVXII. I haven't responded again because I saw you got some input here, and are also having this same discussion on the Agnosticism talk page. We have other sources than the one to which you're referring. I'd be happy to swap out this current source with others if that's what you'd prefer. One is by George Smith here: "agnosticism is not a third alternative to theism and atheism...agnosticism refers to the impossibility of knowledge with regard to a god... Agnosticism can be either theistic or atheistic." (See page 10-11 for the full quote). Another is by Dan Barker, page 96 here. "The two words serve different concepts and are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism addresses knowledge; atheism addresses belief. The agnostic says, “I don't have a knowledge that God exists.". These are sources we're using in wikipedia already on this set of articles. I could find others if necessary, but I think what we have already should be sufficient.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:16, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the agnosticism talk page, where I showed the flaw of the quotation.

Now I'm dealing with you, and how you are violating WP:NPV by demanding the minority view be the only view presented. You even admit you will exchange the majority view source with a minority view source, in order to obtain your goal of advancing the minority view.

My compromise is to remove the entire sentence and let this debate continue in the agnosticism talk page. Afterall, the sentence offers nothing to the topic of theism.IIXVXII (talk) 04:14, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The sentence offers nothing to the topic of theism if we assume your premise that they are mutually exclusive. They are not always mutually exclusive. All we're doing here is summarizing the Agnosticism and Agnostic theism articles, so I agree that you should have this discussion on those pages first. I disagree that Rowe is in the majority, and Smith and Barker and Martin et al. are all in the minority. You're welcome to hash that out and demonstrate the majority position on the Agnosticism talk if you'd like. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 15:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Missing category

If a theism is not pantheist or panentheist then what is it?

(pandeism and panendeism does not count)--85.104.94.52 (talk) 15:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The article isn't claiming that all belief is either pantheist or panentheist. Those are simply presented as two types of theistic belief. Clearly there are belief systems in which their deity/deities are separate in substance from the universe (such as the vast majority of Abrahamic religions). Scyldscefing (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

And why would Pandeism and Panendeism not count? DeistCosmos (talk) 23:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Article lede changed in a manner to make it inaccurate.

In this edit User:TheCorduroyEffect changes the lede sentence in a manner that simplifies the sentence a little bit, but it changes the meaning from what used to be accurate to what is now inaccurate.

"the belief that at least one deity exists" is not the same meaning as "the belief in the existence of deities." And, of course, the difference is that the current version excludes the singular and only includes the plural. That is both a misrepresentation of the vast majority of theists (who are monotheistic), it is also just inaccurate.

I will change it to "the belief in the existence of a or deities." Perhaps it should just be reverted, but I don't want to have a revert struggle, so I will try to take this edit and make it better rather than revert it. 173.48.60.68 (talk) 03:25, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Making a distinction with deism

We need sources here for reducing theism to belief in gods who intervene in the world. Cudworth's definition, in drawing a line between atheists and theists, plainly puts deists in the latter camp, and he is a contemporary of the originators of the idea, in the place of its origin. It would be fair to record deistic objection to being categorized with other believers in gods, but (a) if this distinction is more or less universally observed, we need a source for that, and (b) in any case we need a source for the deist perspective; you cannot just say it on your own authority. Mangoe (talk) 17:22, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

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