Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:08, 21 September 2006

Meißen/Meissen

ß is not an Umlaut, strictly speaking --Yak 07:14, May 12, 2004 (UTC)

I suggest to replace it with ss if some people cannot read the Umlaut. NetguruDD

"Meißen, (or 'Meissen' according to the now-standard conversion of the German letter 'ß')" There is no such standard conversion. Writing 'ss' for 'ß' is an alternative, where 'ß' is not avaiable, so writing both versions in this article is actually a good idea, but the reason is bogus. It's true, that some things in German ortography regarding to the 'ß' have changed. 1.) In Switzerland you can use 'ss' instead of 'ß' since many years, but Meißen is not in Switzerland. 2.) According to the actual spelling rules 'ß' has been replaced by 'ss' after _short_ vowels. 2.a) This is not the case here, because 'ei' isn't spelled short. 2.b) The rules actually don't take effect on names at all. In addition to the use of "Meissen" as an reading/writing-help to those who don't know the 'ß' it is used in capital letters (MEISSEN) and smallcaps, because there is no uppercase 'ß'. Some local companies also use the spelling "Meissen" (especially and most known: the porcelain manufactory), but it's a part of their company name and not the city's official spelling.

As this is the English, not the German, Misplaced Pages, the spelling should be "Meissen". Mark O'Sullivan 11:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Not sure about that. We spell most foreign words with foreign letters, if that's the original spelling, e.g.: Düsseldorf, Bogotá, Rømø. It makes it easier if one doesn't have to remember two spellings, and with Unicode and that little "insert" box under the edit box in Misplaced Pages it's really no trouble. --Chl 13:40, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, myself I don't spell Rome "Roma", or Munich "München", or Dublin "Baile Átha Clíath", or Cairo "al-Qahira" in Arabic script, or Beijing in Chinese characters. If people don't know how to pronounce "ß", it helps them (even if they're not reading out loud) to use the conventional English form. Mark O'Sullivan 17:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Here Here. This lunacy must stop. My 1st language is English. I'm trying to learn German so I'm sympathetic to German spelling. But this is an ENGLISH encyclopedia. There is no "ß" in English. I am not offended by the fact that German-speakers call my country "Australien". I'm guessing that Irishmen are not upset that the same people call their country (in German) "Irland". Why do they insist I call Cologne, Koln? (And the capital of China is Peking, whatever the Chinese want to call it in Chinese). This issue will be the death of Misplaced Pages. Avalon 00:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I concur with the above, which is policy. Septentrionalis 01:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As do I. And this is coming from someone who has extensive German ancestry and a great love for Germany. Charles 04:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The relevant portions of "Use English" are as follows:

1. "Article titles should use the Latin alphabet, not any other alphabets or other writing systems such as syllabaries or Chinese characters."

   "ß" is part of the Latin alphabet, it is not from another alphabet or writing system.

2. "If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form."

   This does not apply as Meißen has no "anglicized form" corresponding to Vienna.

3. "If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages, like Spanish or French, should need no transliteration"

   This applies because Meißen has no commonly used English name. German is a Latin-alphabet language like Spanish or French, so no transliteration is needed.

For these reasons, Meißen rather than Meissen should be the name of this article. I would point out, however, that the naming conventions are guidelines, not policy, so neither the "pro-Meißen camp" nor the "pro-Meissen camp" can claim to have policy on their side. User:Angr 10:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This article has for almost all its history been at Meißen. This is in line with the general practice on Misplaced Pages. If anybody believes that there is a reason to deviate from that practice here then please take that up on WP:RM. Stefán Ingi 06:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Meissen/Meißen

I am going to comment on the statement that this article has been at Meißen for a while... Regardless of that, Meißen is not the "English form" of the name. Meissen is used in English to descrive the porcelain, the city, the margraves, etc. I noticed that an editor went as far as to change the ss in links to ß... When those articles exist at locations using ss. The city may be German, but the language of this Misplaced Pages is English. Before anyone gets me wrong, I am an ethnic German, but I believe that English forms ought to be used on English Misplaced Pages and there are conventions to back that up. Charles 17:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't like Wien/Vienna. Meißen doesn't have an English name. Where there is no English name, the original name is used, and the original name is Meißen. The name of the porcelain company is Meissen Porcelain, and that article is correctly at Meissen porcelain. But the article on the city has to be at Meißen, because "Meissen" isn't the English name of the city, it's just a misspelling. User:Angr 18:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not a misspelling, it's a substitution made when ß is not available. However, it also happens to be the form that is used in English, therefore it is the English name and not merely a misspelling. I haven't a clue why Meissen Porcelain would be used in English if Meissen were a misspelling. It is obvious that the English form of the name Meißen was used for the name of the company because, well, it's the form of the name used in English! The Encyclopædia Brittanica also uses Meissen. Charles 19:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I hardly think an encyclopedia that can't even spell encyclopedia correctly should be taken as a standard. Anyway, ß is available, and there is no reason not to spell the name of the city correctly. The Meissen Porcelain company has chosen to spell their name with ss, even in German, but that's irrelevant to the city. The name of the city is Meißen, and it has no English name. User:Angr 19:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't even spell encyclopedia right? Well, get cracking on removing the traditional spelling from Misplaced Pages's article on encyclopedias/encyclopaedias/encyclopædias. For a proponent of including ß, you're awfully harsh on æ. The name of Meissen is spelled correctly in English as such. Charles 21:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

My own preference is to follow the lead of outside major English-language sources. The couple of places that I spot-checked and Britannica Online clearly use the form "Meissen", as does MSN's Encarta and Columbia Encyclopedia . Which English-language sources are you seeing that use the diacritic? --Elonka 00:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

My own preference is to have articles on cities that actually exist. There is a city named Meißen. There should be an article on it. There is no city named Meissen. What other encyclopedias choose to do is irrelevant. User:Angr 07:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Michelin (green) guide to Germany which sits at home in my bookshelf uses ß as apropriate. It is the main reference I have for locations in Germany. I am fairly sure that it mentions the city of Meißen, but I am away so I cannot check.

Also, I have said several times now that those who want to move the page to Meissen should suggest it at WP:RM which is the forum for moves which there is disagreement about. Somebody suggested I was not following my own advise on this but I believe I am: If I want to move a page from a name which has been used for almost all of its history and somebody objects and moves it back I will take my suggestion up at WP:RM and try and gather a consensus for it. I will certainly not try and force my move through by warring over it or by making useless edits to the redirects to shut non-admins out of the picture. On the other hand, I am not interested in being walked over by the rudeness of others, if that became accepted behaviour, the quality of Misplaced Pages would deteriorate very rapidly, and here I am certainly not just referring to what is the preferred location of pages. Stefán Ingi 10:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a formal WP:RM is probably useful, to ensure that there is consensus for the article's title. The constant move wars were inappropriate. Let's leave the article in one location, and debate it in a civil fashion, rather than yanking it this way and that. --Elonka 03:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I will maintain that the current location (Meissen) complies to common English usage and that a requested move does not decide common English usage, regardless of the outcome of the vote. Charles 04:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The question whether to use Meißen or Meissen as a title on the article on this city is not settled by the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, it is something that editors can and do disagreee on. WP:RM is the process that we do have to settle such cases and since there is disagreement over the move from Meißen to Meissen it should have been taken up there. Making pointless edits to the redirect to hinder that process is simply rude. Stefán Ingi 20:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be at Meißen, not at Meissen, as there's no need to substitute an incorrect rendition of the name for the correct one, which utilises "ß". —Nightstallion (?) 18:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That would certainly be true for German, however English uses -ss- for the name of this city. Charles 19:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, putting "Meissen" instead of "Meißen" here is tantamount to using "haengen" instead of "hängen" in an English-German dictionary. It's sheer nonsense not to use the correct glyphs, especially as they're part of the standard Latin character set. —Nightstallion (?) 08:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. It's also parallel to spelling Kiel "Quil" or something in the Spanish Misplaced Pages (which they don't do!) just because "k" isn't used in Spanish. User:Angr 09:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

English isn't Spanish, nor is English German. When there is a variant to the German spelling that is also more common in English, it is used. Charles 13:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Standard Misplaced Pages practice is not for the form of a name to be debated by Misplaced Pages editors, which is effectively Original Research, and forbidden by policy. See WP:NOR. Instead, Misplaced Pages should follow the lead of "most common usage" in major English-language works. Every English-language encyclopedia that I have checked, uses the form of "Meissen". If anyone cares to argue that a different form is "most commonly-used" in English, I encourage them to supply references so that others can examine them and verify the usage. --Elonka 16:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a variant to Meißen. It has one spelling: Meißen. Meissen is a misspelling. The fact that other English-language encyclopedias choose to insult their readers' intelligence by using this misspelling doesn't mean Misplaced Pages is bound to do the same. User:Angr 17:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually yes, it does. See WP:NAME: "article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" and WP:UE: "Article titles should use the Latin alphabet, not any other alphabets or other writing systems", and "If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." The most commonly-used version in English is Meissen, therefore that is what the Misplaced Pages article should be called, though the alternate spelling should still definitely be included within the first paragraph of the article. --Elonka 17:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no, it doesn't. The quote from WP:NAME you gave is irrelevant since the majority of English speakers won't easily recognize this name under either spelling. The first quote from WP:UE you gave is irrelevant since ß is a letter of the Latin alphabet, not any other alphabet or writing system, and the second quote you gave is also irrelevant because "Meissen" isn't "the most common English spelling", because Meißen doesn't have an English name. The only relevant portion of WP:UE is "If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages, like Spanish or French, should need no transliteration, but Chinese names can use Pinyin, for example." There is no commonly used English name for Meißen, and German is a Latin-alphabet language. Therefore, we don't "transliterate" it to Meissen. As I said above, there is no city called "Meissen" anywhere in the world; there is only a city called Meißen. We shouldn't have article on fictitious cities masquerading as articles on real cities. User:Angr 18:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Meissen is not incorrect, it is merely an alternate spelling for Meißen in German but it is also the preferred and most used form for English. I wonder, do ß-ophiles exist? Since Meissen is used most often for the German name Meißen, Meissen is de facto the English name. That cannot be denied. Charles 21:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it isn't an "alternate spelling". It's a misspelling. "Meissen" is no more the name of Meißen than "Brelin" is the name of Berlin. User:Angr 05:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You have provided nothing to indicated it is a misspelling. All yuo aer diong si bolwing hto ari. :-) Charles 15:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What sort of evidence do you need? Look at de:Meißen. Notice how there is no mention of a "variant spelling" "Meissen". Look in any German-language encyclopedia or atlas of your choosing. "Meissen" isn't a "variant spelling" because it is unused. And to show it's used outside of German as well, look at the corresponding articles in other languages that don't use the letter ß: eo:Meißen, es:Meißen, fr:Meißen, nl:Meißen (stad), pt:Meißen, sv:Meißen. Why should English Misplaced Pages be the only Wikimedia project that insults its users' intelligence by assuming they're too dim-witted to understand the article ß? User:Angr 15:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

In German, ß is used when it is available. There is no need in German to omit it when it is available. The other languages also do not speak for English. Furthermore, those other languages are continental European languages that have alphabets containing diacritics. I would assume that the use of diacritics in neighbouring countries is familiar to them. Show me what is used in ENGLISH. I think it's safe to say that people coming to English Misplaced Pages to look at English information don't care about Estonian, Spanish, French, Dutch, Portuguese or Swedish information. You are the only person insulting anyone's intelligence by extending dim-wittedness to users. The native spelling is clearly indicated in the article. Charles 16:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Several things: Dutch does not use diacritics for writing Dutch words. Diacritics are generally not unfamiliar to English users, café anyone? People who come to this article are likely to be interested in Germany and would appreciate the best information, if they are unfamiliar with ß then the template at the top will provide them with valuable information. The name of the city, Meißen, is used in English texts, e.g. my guidebook (see above, I have now checked). The use of ß is sometimes avoided in texts, but there is no reason to do that here because of the nice template at the top. Finally, this long argument shows that people on both sides believe they are doing the best thing for Misplaced Pages, in such a case WP:RM should have been used before the move was made and the pointless edits to the redirect are an insult to non-admin users. Stefán Ingi 16:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

English borrows certain letters with diacritics, chiefly diacritics present in Romance languages. Meißen is given in the article at the top as the German spelling. Guidebooks are not the be all and end all of spelling. I will take note from existing encyclopedias over a guidebook for English usage of a city name any day. One editor's opinion that it is a misspelling and that the EB is wrong and another's opinion that a guidebook is absolutely correct don't dictate English usage. To allow such would be insulting to the intelligence of our users. Pretty weak arguments in my opinion. Charles 19:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

My point was that there is nothing peculiar about seeing diacritics in an English text, we don't have to reject Meißen on that ground. No text is the "be all and end all" of anything, editors have different opinions and priorities. I have very little hope that I can convince you that this article will be better off with the title Meißen, we will simply have to disagree on that. I would however like you to acknowledge that there are many editors here who feel that Meißen is a more suitable title and that these editors have arguments to support their opinion, you are of course free to classify these arguments as "pretty weak" but that is your personal opinion, you shouldn't expect everyone to agree. Elonka, who made the pointless edit to the redirect which locked non-admins out, stated above that there should be a discussion at WP:RM. In order to set that discussion up, the pointless edits should be deleted, then I can move the page back and you can set up the vote if you want. Stefán Ingi 20:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I am not discounting the use of diacritics on the grounds that they may be peculiar or not... I am discounting the use of Meißen in English when Meissen is far more used. The location of Meissen at various other Wikipedias doesn't dictate where it is in English. What I was trying to get at is that maybe ß is more widely recognized in those languages. I do not want to hide the fact that it is Meißen in German and rarely in English, but I am also totally against moving it back to Meißen because English usage does not reflect that spelling. If it did, then it would be fine at that location. Yes, I do insert my personal opinions, but I am also trying to draw attention to what is overlooked everytime I come to this page: Encyclopedias and most other English works make use of the established spelling for the city in English, which is Meissen. Angr's suggestion that it is "wrong" is completely and utterly absurd. It's as wrong as spelling sulphur as sulfur. Meissen is simply more used in English. I would be in your camp if it were the other way around. If you want it moved back to Meißen, then set up a request move for that: I have been in votes where the consensus is ignored for the sake of what is actually common usage. In this case, Meissen. Charles 22:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia should only use exonyms as a last resort

As a non-germanic American born citizen I think it's disgusting that the real name of this town is not being used, and in it's place an exonym is used. I think it clearly illustrates American ethnocentricity as well as underscoring my personal belief that wikipedia is devolving into pure ochlocracy. When allowed Latin/German characters can be found in wikipedia. For example Führer or Federweißer, take special care to note the "ß" in that last one, it isn't an "ss." I respectfully ask that the artcle be renamed. Naufana: 02:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Meissen → Meißen … Rationale: This is the original name of the article, and the real name of the city. There is no "English" name for this place (cf Wien and Vienna); there is no rule obliging articles on the English Misplaced Pages to avoid "foreign" Latin letters (cf Federweißer, Tromsø etc etc.) -- Evertype·✆ 07:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as nominator. -- Evertype·✆ 07:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support; as it currently stands the article is basically a hoax. There is no city called "Meissen" in Germany, but there is a city called "Meißen", and there should be an article about it at Misplaced Pages. Angr 08:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support. I had tried to undo this change myself, and I'm glad someone is going through the procedures. --Stemonitis 09:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. While I support the use of the umlaut throughout the article, for the page title itself, I'd follow the lead of none other than the town itself, whose website is of course www.stadt-meiSSen.de. Accents, umlauts and other characters in a URL are never a good idea, and we should be trying to make it easy on those linking here from external sources. --DeLarge 11:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support. In German ortography, the Eszett is replaced by "ss" only when it's unavailable. Not the case. --Húsönd 14:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support Meißen is correct. Please see this for a similar discussion i started at Misplaced Pages:Villiage pump (policy). Naufana: 16:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support Using English does not mean, spell foreign names wrong. Gryffindor 17:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. Per WP:NAME, which is Misplaced Pages policy, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize. The vast preponderance of English-language sources (every single encyclopedia that I have checked), spells this name as "Meissen," and Misplaced Pages should reflect that common usage spelling. The native spelling of the area can be included within the body of the article, but is not what should be used as the title. If it is desired to move this article to a different spelling, those wishing to have it moved must provide verifiable external references which show that the foreign spelling is used in a majority of English sources. In other words, look at how most English-language newspapers spell this name. However they spell it, is how Misplaced Pages should spell it. Misplaced Pages policy is to use information after it has appeared in external sources -- not to go against common usage, which is effectively a violation of WP:NOR. --Elonka 21:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

A comment aimed at DeLarge: ß cannot be included in a URL, by definition (similarly for umlauts and other accents). This is one of the few cases where circumscription of "ß" as "ss" is necessary. It is, however, no reason to use that misspelling for the title. Note that the website http://www.meissen.de/ uses "Meißen" throughout. --Stemonitis 11:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

True. The URL of Federweißer, for example, is http://en.wikipedia.org/Federwei%C3%9Fer. Not a problem. Angr 15:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)