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Talk:Steven E. Jones/Archive 1 Talk:Steven E. Jones/Archive 2

Jones accused of anti-semitism for reference to "international bankers"

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645201360,00.html (posted by Peephole, 14:23, 15 September 2006)

Anyone want to do anything with this? I doubt it's going to go anywhere, but if something else turns up, this is probably the first mention of it. Could have historical significance. I've never liked this tactic of the ADL. It seems to me that they, not Jones, are connecting banking with jews. That said, I do understand the "codetalk" argument. Tough call. But this is not yet substantial.--Thomas Basboll 14:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"Tactic of the ADL"? You've got to be kidding. It's widely known that "International Bankers" is an anti-Semitic euphemism. If you hear it, you can expect that "the Jews did it" is just around the corner (oh wait, that's already part of the 9/11 conspiracy theory, isn't it?). Morton devonshire 15:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

What,what? What is this organization AFD? It's first time I hear that "international bankers" is a codetalk? Maybe I'm oldfashioned but international bankers are... international bankers? I've never connected them with Jews. (Well, I heard some anti-semitic Jews-banking connections but... codetalk?) Jones speaks publicly of "international bankers" for the first time and AFD sends a letter of complaint - aren't they a bit paranoid? ... Or.. (lol, but please don't tell AFD :)) maybe, they're indeed defending interests of... "international bankers"? :))

Anyway, in Jones's own words: ""I had no idea this would be some sort of codespeak for anti-Semitism, it is not right to link such a group to Jews." --SalvNaut 17:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think 'Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and an "international banking cartel"' is pretty clear, if that is an accurate report of what he said. But unless this is picked up more widely in the press I would say it should not go in here. In context it might be appropriate for the section in 9/11 conspiracy theories, or in new anti-Semitism. Tom Harrison 18:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry! I can't stay mute. I very oppose to this way of thinking! Are Wolfowitz and Perle Jews? I didn't know that - I'm not sure if Jones did. Even if - why would this be the most important thing for him?? He never spoke ANYTHING of Jews before! Maybe he've heard this phrase ("banking cartel") from someone of Scholars911. It doesn't matter. He can't be accused of anti-semitizm for saying this sentence!! dot.

This kind of thinking frames very "well" onto what we've read today in the news. Pope Benedict gave a lecture on a german university on the history of religion. He cited some guy from 14th century (ok, maybe he should be more carefull choosing citation, still) and what do we have in the news!? "Muslims" are angry! Pope angered Muslims! First: I don't think any muslims would care if it wasn't for such organizations - just exactly like AFD, but on the Muslim side. And who inflated the story so it would go around the world 3 times? What do we need this for! Why to follow this "don't piss me off" way of thinking? Comments I've seen on forums today were depressing - 0, nada, null! of understanding, just pointing fingers who's fault it is. Don't pour more oil into these - please. --SalvNaut 21:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree at least partially. It is possible that Jones picked up a line from others in the movement, and repeated it without knowing how others intend it, or how it would be received. Now he does know. As you say, I have not heard anything like this from him before. Again, I don't think we should add it here at this point. This is a biography of Jones, and it's not at all clear that this remark tells us anything at all about the man, except maybe that he is inclined to say more than he should of things he knows little about. That at least seems consistent with his 9/11 'research.' "Neocon cabal," "world bank," and "masters of the media" are all phrases to avoid, especially when coupled with "vast conspiracy." Tom Harrison 22:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, agreed, this has nothing to do with the article. I still would like to stress on one thing: Why should anyone read that sentence different way it reads?!? The sentence is about two people and international bankers. Conspirational, as it is, it still sais nothing about Jews. This sentence is not anti-Semitic and why should I even know it can be? There is a line between protecting nationalities, minorities, whoever, from harassment or disrespect and between advancing ones' political position. Many cross this line and other similiar lines today. --SalvNaut 22:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Framed Jones?

Wow! Please check this article under section "The Radio Trap".

Even the host of a Radio program acknowledged:

"I'm not sure we did it the right way," Fabrizio said after he accepted responsibility for the radio program that sparked the sacking of Jones.

Should this somehow be mentioned in the article with connection to paid leave? --SalvNaut 01:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that we should cite to this Anti-Jewish website? Morton devonshire 01:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The title of the article is Are Zionists Behind Banning of Truthful 9/11 Scientist?. This stuff is just stupifying. I cannot believe people do not see the anti-semitism that is built into 9/11 conspiracy theories. Anyway, this site is not a reliable source for anything but what its operator thinks, so we should not cite it for any information about Jones. Tom Harrison 02:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

One would have to be a complete fool to not see this piece for what it is: hate-mongering dressed up as journalism. Levi P. 03:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

While I see how that title is unfortunate, I'm going to need a bit more info to believe that the site and the author of this (off-site) article is "anti-Jewish". The site is basically anti-globalization and has a clear 9/11 focus (as explained under "about"). There are many forms of anti-Zionism that are not anti-semitic (and forms of Zionism that are not Jewish). To bring this back to the Jones' problems, all that this indicates is the difficulty implicit in taking any sort of "conspiracist" position. Many believe (with some justification) that the "Elders of Zion" is the arch-conspiracy theory. That fact is then used to construe anti-globalization (especially when it is called "anti-globalist"), anti-Zionism (i.e., opposition to the idea that there should be a "homeland for the Jews"), and, in this case, anti-banking as anti-semitism. Again, while anti-semites may find many of these stances attractively compatible with their own, they can be (and are being) articulated without any references to that tiresome prejudice. Try to compare the claim "it is obviously controlled demolition" with the claim "anti-semitism is clearly built into conspiracy theories" in terms of the sort of evidence you would need to support it.--Thomas Basboll 09:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there would need to be an extensive body of academic literature and journalism to support the idea. Tom Harrison 13:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, for the purposes of articles here. But I also mean more common sensically. That is, what has given you this idea?--Thomas Basboll 14:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That anti-semitism is an element of almost all conspiracy theories? That is what I see based on my reading and experience. (I think it is possible that this may not be the case with conspiracy theories in the far east, but I know little about those.) It is the nature of conspiracy theories that they start small and expand to include everything. No conspiracy theory can for very long ignore the Jews. Tom Harrison 14:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• I can understand your pov and your gained prejudice. Then, your first opinion was This stuff is just stupifying. which is quite strong judgement. This article was not the first one to mention Fabrizio interview beside paid leave. Second, the most biased part of this article is its title. Maybe we should be more careful when judging people (in this case the author of that article) basing it solely on experience. Similiar behavior might be considered to be at the core of anti-Semitism.

I am not sure if I agree with your view on the nature of conspiracy theories (on this particular CT especially, others - I don't have experience). Thomas pointed it out couple of times that it's rather the other way round - those are long-time anti-Semites who find their way into CT.--SalvNaut 17:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Again your conclusions crush on me... What has drawn you into thinking that this site is anti-Jewish hate-mongering journalism? While the article title is, as it is, it's content is just a report. I don't think I am a fool but I can't see how this site is hate-mogering? You have thrown such strong words Levi - have you read other articles there? I find them to be written in a very reportive style without any pov-pushing remarks. Where is the hate?

This site has many articles condemning Israel's war with Lebanon, ok, but I haven't found anything there that would constitute anti-Jewish? I would say at most it's anti-war, anti-(politics of Israel), anti-globalist. I've found no hate directed at Israeli (or any other) people at all. I'll give an example: an article with very strong title "Israel’s deceptions as a way of life" but it's focused on Israel gov. war propaganda, it even express concernes of ordinary people from Israel that actions of their politicians are not going to be examinated: Most Israelis are deeply unhappy about what one commentator has called Olmert’s "committee of non-inquiry". Again, where is hate? Where is anti-Jewish content? Do you call people that question war in Iraq anti-American?

Why you keep acusing everyone who has a different world view of such bad things, while people can just be very concerned about what is going on in the world?

I won't insist on adding content to Jones' article, although this could explain what BYU meant by "increasingly speculative and accusatory nature". I can't find words that would explain the situation concisely. --SalvNaut 10:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Information about Jones's interview was also mentioned in this Sep8 article by Desertnews:

Jones had been relatively reticent to discuss the implications of his findings, but he created buzz on campus Tuesday with his appearance on KUER-FM 90.1. He expressed the opinion to talk-show host Doug Fabrizio that blame for the attacks rests with neoconservatives Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and others.

The connection between BYU decision and that radio-interview apparently exists.--SalvNaut 10:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, go ahead and include it in the article -- the idea that "the Jews got Steven Jones fired" is, I agree, so stupifyingly absurd that maybe it does belong with the other stupifyingly absurd ideas of the 9/11 conspiracy theory movement, like the rest of Jones' ideas. Go for it. Wallow in the foolishness of it all. Morton devonshire 18:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Morton - from one extremity to another. You sort of got me here, as my first message and the section's title could indicate I would like to do it, the way you described it - but no, it was never my intention to do so. I would like to include info that BYU paid leave decision was influenced by biased interview by Fabrizio and that even Fabrizio agrees he didn't handle it well, and that this interview caused completely unjustified accusations of Jones being anti-Semitic. I understand you fully support this proposed inclusion of mine, as you've already supported something much more extreme - thank you. --SalvNaut 18:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are you skirting the accusation made by the Radio Trap article? Morton devonshire 19:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not. Please, show me which paragraph of this article is an accusation of anyone? Do not bring the title on - a headline's purpose is to grasp readers' attention, so headlines are often exaggerated and its justified. SalvNaut 19:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok - I've found this one for you:

Within two days, the authorities at BYU apparently caved to organized Jewish pressure and put Jones on paid leave. Students who had already begun their fall physics courses with Jones will be taught by other faculty members for the rest of the semester as university administrators review his statements and research.

Well,hmmm... apparently... You are right. It's sort of an accusation.I wonder if it's supported by something more than the author's guess. Still, the anti-Semitic topic was tuched upon other articles about Jones.(previous discussion). We have enough sources to support what I proposed to add. SalvNaut 19:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV violation that will be fixed

Inappropriate in English per NPOV: "Engineers have dismissed the controlled demolition hypothesis". This implies/states/pushes the POV that all engineers have dismissed this. Unless someone can find a source that says flatly that all engineers have dismissed it this needs to be changed. You cannot have it say "Most engineers", or anything similar either, unless you can source that. I am changing this again to "A variety of engineers", which is neutral and NPOV. Let the reader decide. None of us has that right for them. · XP · 14:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, none of us has to be mislead to believe that any respected engineers support his summary of the events either, so until you can demostrate that they have, the edit stays.--MONGO 14:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Reread how it works on policy please. You need to source that "all" engineers have dismissed him. · XP · 14:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

What the heck does a variety of engineers have any difference than just saying engineers...I want you to show me a single engineer that completely agrees with Jones's findings. Good luck.--MONGO 15:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to find you a single one that supports his views, because I'm not saying that even one supports his view. What I'm saying is thisw article shall not say that ALL engineers dismiss his views, nor shall it say anything to denote a majority, as that cannot be proven. All that can be proven from RS is that a "variety" of them dismiss it. The difference is just saying "Engineers" is the same in English as saying "All engineers", which cannot be proven and advocating a point of view--which we shall not and are not to do. Saying a variety of engineers instead leaves it up to the reader. We do not have any sources that say anything beyond "some" engineers. We do not have any RS that say all, most, nearly all, the majority of, lots of, gobs of, or anything related. Therefore, my version is appropriate per RS, NPOV, and usage of the English language. · XP · 15:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

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