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We're so glad you're here! Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Kennethtennyson

Please do not accuse others of racism. That is a very strong personal attack. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 23:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC) You have been blocked for 6 hours for continually posting irrelevant personal content about others on wikipedia to stir discord.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If it wasn't already clear, plese do not repost the attacks. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was just taking what was in Archive 8 and reposting back on. I would not post an attack, but I have to answer Kenneth Tennyson's question. I promise not to repost that attack from Archive 8. Regards.Indrancroos 08:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Freedom skies

My problem with Freedom skies is his incivility, his transparent POV, his self-serving disregard for official Misplaced Pages standards on credible sources and, most of all, the way he accuses others of practices that he himself engages in.

As for the content of your message, I refuse to dignify it by addressing it.
JFD 09:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked

You were asked to stop attacking other editors and yet you persist in re-posting deleted rants over and over. It appears that you've also tried to track WP editors to other websites to further malign their character. This behavior is completely unacceptable and has resulted in a 48 hour block. Please stop immediately and review our policy on personal attacks. If you continue to attack other editors in this manner, you may be subject to quickly escalating blocks. Shell 12:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't anger admins

They have the power to throw you out on a whim. It is the unfortunate reality on wikipedia. Regardless of your views, if admins side with a particular user who opposes you then it's over, so you might as well back out gracefully so that you can continue editing more articles. I'd like to see you stay and contribute more to wikipedia, so please do.Hkelkar 19:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hope to see you soon

Thanks for backing me up, I can take care of Kenny and JFD on my own though, they'll have a hard time backing their arguments against the sheer amount of information I can provide substantiating my point of view as widespread. I really appreciated what you did on the talk page and everything, hope to see you soon, meanwhile relax and don't take the blocking too seriously. Freedom skies 20:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Freedom skies

Do you have an e-mail contact? Indrancroos 07:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess JFD is trying to discourage you to get in touch with me via e-mail, since he fears some kind of academical threat. Just to clear some things up, I was not the guy who went "India did not exist until 1947". I would never post something as blunt, offensive, and ignorant as that. However, yes, I have changed a few things around as a correction. It is not to offend anyone, but like Kenneth Tennyson and his devoted sidekick JFD (the Green Hornet and Kato), I too have some historical points of views. I understand that you have been accused of being a pan-Indian nationalist, while I have been accused of being a Tamil nationalist. As far as Indian martial arts are concerned, martial arts from both your culture and mine are in the Indian martial arts section. Therefore, it effects both of us.

It seems like through this wiki-conflict, it has thrown us together into one pot. If I am here to put you or your culture down, or to discredit India, why in the first place would I have stuck up for you. I had not intentions in mind when I did that. It just ticked me off when Kenneth sent you that messed up message. Just like, for example, a few years ago, when a Punjabi store owner was beaten up in a hate crime. I was outraged...

I see you have a vast knowledge in the fighting styles of Northern Inda, while I have the same for Southern India. Likewise, you are very knowledgeable about ancient Bharat and its 16 Mahajanapada Republics, while I have the same for ancient Tamilakkam. Since this page on Indian Martial Arts effects us both, maybe together we can combine both our knowledge to present a remarkable page. Yes, I do understand our passions which may sometimes clash. However, if we could set aside some of that and work together in a "give-take" mentality we can make things work.

At the same time, we will present our contributions which may be opposite of what JFD-Kenny think, but at the same time their views shall be presented as well to give a fair and balanced view on Indian Martial Arts.

Do you agree with me on this? If so, it would be nice if we could communicate via e-mail. I have more ideas to share with you. I believe we can make this work. As far as JFD is concerned, I do not know what his intentions are. Maybe he feels a little threatened of the possiblity of you and me teaming up on this project? or maybe I am wrong... Indrancroos 20:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Freedom skies seems perfectly capable of setting up an e-mail account exclusively for communication with yourself and other Wikipedians entirely separate from those he may use for other personal and professional communications.

I understand that you have been accused of being a pan-Indian nationalist, while I have been accused of being a Tamil nationalist. As far as Indian martial arts are concerned, martial arts from both your culture and mine are in the Indian martial arts section. Therefore, it effects both of us.

If you want articles devoted exclusively to Tamil martial arts, see Varma ati and Southern Kalaripayattu.

I see you have a vast knowledge in the fighting styles of Northern Inda, while I have the same for Southern India.

Which is why your knowledgability drops off precipitously once you start opining about the martial arts of China, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia.

At the same time, we will present our contributions which may be opposite of what JFD-Kenny think, but at the same time their views shall be presented as well to give a fair and balanced view on Indian Martial Arts.

Thank you, Indrancroos.
You can tell which contributions on the Kalarippayattu and Pehlwani entries are mine because they're the ones that cite books.
By academics.
Published by scholarly presses.

As far as JFD is concerned, I do not know what his intentions are. Maybe he feels a little threatened of the possiblity of you and me teaming up on this project?

No, just amused at the irony.
JFD 03:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Challenge

If you can show me a "Phd." scholar from India who discredits the Bodhidarma theory, then I will believe everything you say, and even stop posting or editing on wikipedia. Is that is deal?

Official Misplaced Pages standards don't judge the credibility of a source by his or her race.

But clearly you do.
JFD 05:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What's the matter? Kenny cannot speak for himself? Indrancroos: "I'll rather be happy than right, anytime." 05:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

How very lucky for you that you'd rather be happy than right.
JFD 05:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That was a sarcasm, and an inside joke that only Kenny would know about, Mr. Kato... Indrancroos: "I'll rather be happy than right, anytime." 10:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Well, the three of us (me, Kenny and JFD) have almost reached an agreement that should settle the IMA article for now, the final source code for "IMA under colonial rule" should be ready as soon as JFD finds time, and I agree with it's basic outline, other than that the only remaining thing is the agreement on guidelines for future editing.

After that, I'm taking a much deserved long wikibreak. So, most of the work's already done, and after all this is over, the last thing I would want to talk about is wikipedia.

I'll be off as soon as the outline and the agreements are done, so with the argument being in it's final stages, I guess there is no use for more communication on it right now.

Regards. Freedom skies 19:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait a Second

So it is up to the three of you, excluding me to reach an agreement on the IMA article?Indrancroos: "I'll rather be happy than right, anytime." 00:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want in on the editing agreement, why don't you do something more constructive than throwing around cheap accusations of racism such as raising specific points and bringing in credible sources?
JFD 00:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Wait a Second

Indran, I know that you think you have material to contribute to this article but so do all of the other three editors, if everyone else added their conflicting point of views right now, the article's quality is likely to degrade substantially. Edit wars at this final stage will lead to the administrators locking down the article in an awkward state and sending warning to the editors to think about what they did, which is in nobody's favour and is kinda humiliating as well.

The arguments are over, the final agreement has been almost reached and there's pretty much nothing left to do here. It's a fact, try living with it. Freedom skies 02:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

B.S. If you're going to mention about Dravidian Martial arts, then I am going to have my say on it.Indrancroos: "I'll rather be happy than right, anytime." 04:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You may wish to consult the existing articles on Tamil martial arts at Varma ati and Southern Kalaripayattu
JFD 10:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It is actually Marma (pertaining to nerves) in the Kerala language, and Varma (pertaining to nerves) in the Tamil language. Also, varma ati is actually Marma Adi, the art of pressure point attacks from Kerala. The Tamil pressure point fighting and healing system is called Varma Kalai. The Tamil foot and hand combat is called Kuttu Varisai. Varma Kalai can also be a healing art called Varma or Varma Cuttiram.

Sources:

  1. Marma adi : the deadly art and science of hitting the vital marmas / Sanjay V. Javalkar
  Belgaum, India : Warrior Publications, 1996

  2. Varma cūttiram, a Tamil text on martial art : from palm-leaf manuscript / translation, M. Radhika ; editor, P.  Subramaniam ; general editors, Shu Hikosaka, Norinaga Shimizu, G. John Samuel.
 Madras : Institute of Asian Studies, 1994

Indrancroos 18:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You should post this message to Talk:Indian martial arts.
JFD 21:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu and Kerala were never under the rule of Ashoka

(Restoring ancient India, a country which included the ancient south under Ashoka the great)

To Freedom skies: Did it ever occur to you that the link you had for Ashoka did not include Tamil Nadu and Kerala????Indrancroos 06:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Asoka's Empire did not include Kerala, Tamilnadu, and Sri Lanka. Did you know that you have just CONTRADICTED yourself? Here is the contradiction in your arguement:

(Contradiction)

1. it was stated that "Restoring ancient India, a country which included the ancient south under Ashoka the great".
2. a link was added to Ashoka in the sentence.
3. on the page of Ashoka, it showed the map of his empire which did not inlcude Southern India
  (primarily Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka).

Here are some links to other wikipedia and websites on Asoka. Please take a look at the maps closely.

(Web Sites)

1. Ashoka
2. Maurya Empire
3. The Mauryan Empire ]
4. Span of the Mauryan Empire ]
5. Map of Mauryan Empire ]

Still not satisfied? Please let me recommend you to take a look at these books in your University and take a look at the maps, and perhaps read the books itself. Here is a list of them which will prove you wrong.

(Books)

1. Mookerji, Radhakumud (1967). Asoka. Delhi: Oxford University Press.
2. Gokhale, Balkrishna Govind (1966). Asoka Maurya. New York: Twayne Publishers.
3. Smith, Vincent Arthur (1964). Asoka, the Buddhist emperor of India. Delhi: S. Chand. 
4. Thapar, Romila Aśoka and the decline of the Mauryas (1997): with a new afterword, bibliography, and index. 
   Delhi ; New York : Oxford University Press.
5. Nilakanta Sastri, K. A. (1967). Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass.

By the way these were books written by both Northern and Southern Indians and one European. This is about as fair and balanced it is going to get. As quoted on the Indian martial arts page, I shall use this to describe the sources I have used above as "diverse in nature and have origins of different times from various different ethnic groups", which all prove one point Asoka's Empire did not include Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka. I would dare say the reason for this was because of the Dravidian martial arts and fighting tactics, including a strong infantry, cavalry, and a poweful Navy.

You need to get your facts straight if you are going to try to get your point across.

Indrancroos 06:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I had the same argument with Freedom skies ages ago.

Freedom skies: Akhanda Bharatam (literally "undivided India") is the historic homeland of the Hindus, before Islamic conquest and colonial partition, which resulted in the subsequent conversion of a significant number to Islam and Christianity. It includes all of present day Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Myanmar, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and some areas of Tibet.

also, http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Mauryan_map.gif should help a bit before you try and go all argumentative about countries you don't know about.

JFD: So what's that yellow part at the bottom?

JFD 12:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply

I aint confused at all. The Ramayan and Mahabharat have not been revised.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. The Ramayan and the Mahabharat have not been revised, nor do they mention of any kingdoms which are in Tamil Nadu, or Kerala. As a matter of fact in Mahabharata it mentions of the 16 Mahajanapadas. The southern most was in the Maharashtran state and parts of Central India called Assaka. The Ramayana mentions of how Hanuman crossed over to Lanka, true in the mythological story. Homer's Iliad speaks of the Trojan war between the Athenians and the Trojans. Does that mean that Troy was part of Athens at the time? Just because Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Java and Bali Indonesia dance the Ramayana or have arts depicting the Ramayana, doesn't mean they are part of India. Just because Islam is practices all over the Middle East, does not mean they are one country either... Stop living in a fantasy... Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Tripura, Mizoram, Pondichery, Assam, and Nagaland became part of India through the British. When the British left, they gave the princely states a choice to be part of India or not. Those who chose not to be part of India, were over run by the Indian army and taken over. A so called Indian Super Power, which is acutually a World Super Market for cheap labor... Wake up and smell the coffee...Indrancroos 01:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are some more facts for you:

1. Mizo Hills were formally declared as part of the British-India by a proclamation in 1895.]
2. The State of Nagaland was formally inaugurated on December 1st, 1963, as the 16th State of the Indian Union.]
3. The 'Tripura' is a small state within the union of India. It was an independent country till the merger with independent India 
   in 1949 A.D.]
4. Manipur was not a Part of India. It was forcibly annexed by India. In 21 September 1949 the king of Manipur was forced to sign 
   the Marger Agreement.]
5. Pondicherry becomes part of India in 1963. ]

These are not the only states which did not become part of India until the arrival of the British or after the British left. If India was actaully one Empire during ancient times, how come there are over 23 distinct languages, and thousands of dialects? Why are there three major families of ethinic groups Dravidians (of African/ Australian roots), Indo-Aryans (of Persian roots - and of course where the name India came from), and the Mon-Kmher (of Burmese/ Cambodian roots)?] Indrancroos 02:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Really? Lanka was part of Ram's zone of hegemony after the war with Ravan, Ram already had all of mainland India under his dominion. Then under Ashoka Maurya's reign, India was united again. There is but one race in India. The Aryans. The whole concept of a Dravidian race was invented by the british to help Christian missionaries. The only reason Asssamese look like Chinese is because they have more Mongoloid blood in them than Aryan.Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

There is but one race in India. The Aryans. The whole concept of a Dravidian race was invented by the british to    help 
  Christian missionaries. The only reason Asssamese look like Chinese is because they have more Mongoloid blood in them than  Aryan.

To Bakasupran: You are sounding like a Fascist Nazi now. As far as religion is concerned, isn't it true that Northern India got invaded left and right by the Greeks, Moghuls, British and lost their true heritage while we have retained ours? Our temples are still standing throughout Southern India. How about in Northern India? Why are there so many Muslim mosques in Northern India if it is supposed to be a Hindu state? Are you saying that the Dravidians never existed? Exlain to me the African and Aboriginal features of the Dravidians.] Also, please explain to me why the Northern Indian scripts use the Devanagiri script vs. the Dravidians using the curvey scripts.] Can you also explain to me why their is a sharp difference between the Indo-Aryan languages of Northern India vs. the Dravidian languages of Southern India?] Lastly, since some of you "power tripped" guys are fond of taking our history and claiming it as yours, can you explain to me why some of the Southeast Asian languages have certain Dravidian words?] Here's a good one, can you tell me why Southeast Asian scripts resemble that of the Dravidian scripts instead of Sanskrit or other North Indian scripts?]

Please educate me since I am so ignorant of the history and culture of the Indian sub-continent. I am sorry that I am not as good as you to back up what I say...

Indrancroos 02:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu "unified" with other parts of India

Hi, I noticed your conversation about Tamil Nadu, and it's becoming unified with the rest of India under British rule. I don't know whether you would say that Tamil Nadu was "unified" with the rest of India under the Slave dynasty Malik Kafur, but it is certainly true that the Tamils suffered military defeat under that dynasty, were looted, brutally oppressed etc. How would you describe that historical period? Sincerely, --BostonMA 20:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

(Wrongly assumed that since Malik Kafur was a slave that he was part of what was called the slave dynasty. Apparently not, though I don't understand the reason why. --BostonMA 20:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

NPA

Regarding this comment, Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Ragib 02:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In other words, even if you disagree with other people, do NOT call them Fascist Nazi. Comment only on content, arguments, rather than the persons. Respect other users. Thank you. --Ragib 02:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Racial Threats

Dear Ragib,

I do not mean to write like this. It is shocking to hear that there are some people who actually would say things like a certain ethnic group does not exist. I find that strongly offensive, and racist. And it equates to calling an African American the "N" word, and certain Asians "oriental". Please warn Bakasuprman to refrain from posting such offensive racist comments. I do not mind an educated debate on civilizations, but to actually say that the ethnic Dravidians did not exist is equivallent to saying that we are better off dead. I feel threatened and offended.

Indrancroos 03:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Debates, arguments are always fine, provided that they keep within the bounds of civility. I am not involved in any of the debates you are having with Baka in this issue. However, I only asked you not to attack anyone personally. Analyzing, replying to arguments, comments, are just fine. I.e. "Don't shoot the messenger". --Ragib 03:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate you for posting me on this matter. I will definitely keep what you said in mind about what to post and what not to post. Also, could you please give the same warning to Bakasuprman. I feel threatened by his comment that we (Dravidians) did not exist. Regards.

Indrancroos 03:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

English vs American spellings

Edits like this are not a good idea. Imagine Americans spending all day changing everything to their spellings, and then as the Yanks go to bed the Brits start changing them all back. As a general rule, leave them like you find them, as long as they're consistent within an article. Fan-1967 06:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I will keep that in mind. Kind Regards. Indrancroos 07:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

India

Hiya, whaddidya say ? Persian roots ? Are you crazy ? The whole Aryan race was an Indo-European tribe. It was formed in the Arctic. Read Lokmanya Tilak's The Arctic Home in the Veda and you'll know. After some catastrophic climactic changes however, the Indo-Europeans had to migrate to distant lands. Some of them came to India via Central Asia, some went to Europe and some went to Persia. However the Indo-European religion was established all over the Eurasia. That's why you find corresponding aspects and similarities between Ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Nordic religions with Vedic religion. This Arya Vaidik Dharma and the local Dravidian religion syncretised into modern Hinduism. The people of the East (call them Mongoloids) were barbarians (Chengiz Khan) with tribal religion. These people migrated to China/Japan etc. and East India. In East India they intermarried with Aryans and then spread through rest of South East Asia. That's why they are called Malay race and Indochin race, not Mongoloids. Chinese and Japanese are total mongoloids. The only country in South East Asia which is mongoloid is today's Vietnam. The Champa Empire was the furthest east Hindu Empire that you'd find. And slowly after the second and third Abrahamic religion came that the Indo-European Confederacy fell, with Europe becoming Christian, Middle East becomin Moslem and South East Asia following suit. But I admit the Dravidian race was different. But after that intermarriages have changed the thing. Nowadays you have Dravidians fairer than Aryans. However I must say that India is not one.It is a nation of nations.

Mahakrit 16:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow!! Nice theory. Too bad that the "theory" doesn't even qualify as a fairy tale!! --Ragib 17:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:

1. I'm Tamil, not North Indian
2. 50% of Javanese grammar is from Sanskrit
3. Geocities and personal blogs are not citable sources. I might as well make my own maps. See WP:RS and WP:V
4. Since your claims are original research, I have no reason to respond in kind.

Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

"Fascist Nazi" - Congrats to making yourself look like a Troll.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You're not a Tamil. You're a sell out with a who so happens to have a Tamil name... I guess all Brahmins are alike... By the way, where on earth did you come up with a name like Troll??? Purely F.O.B. language... I suppose you are going to call me a Moron, another famous F.O.B. word to use... You're a two time loser without a prick.... Indrancroos 02:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)