Brilliant work, thank you. Your find led me to this article giving a review of the Awards and a list of the recipients. DuncanHill (talk) 21:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Made in USA or Imported

What is "Made in USA or Imported" supposed to convey? Isn't everything in the USA either made in USA or imported?

This is like a real life example of this joke "these two books contain the sum of all knowledge. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I suggest that either Amazon hasn't been able to find out where this product is made, or the same product is manufactured in different countries and they don't know which version you'll be sent if you order it. On some food products if you look at the ingredients list and see things like "sugar and/or high-fructose corn syrup"; same idea, the manufacturer makes it both ways according to what supplies are available most cheaply at the time, and doesn't consider that you need to be told which one is in this specific package. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

ECS_LIVA_Z -- The joke as I heard it was an auto repair shop with the sign "We specialize in all makes and models, foreign and domestic"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:44, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I've also heard "We loan up to $1000, or more." StuRat (talk) 12:20, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

That's a cousin to "within 30 days, if not sooner." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

That's redundant, but at least both mean 30 days or less. Mine means $1000 or less or more, which means any amount at all. StuRat (talk) 20:50, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

The "foreign and domestic" is likewise a redundancy, but that could be a purposeful attention-getter. Like the $1000 could be the attention getter, to put a number in there to suggest an order of magnitude. The one you cited sounds like shorthand for "up to $1000, or even more under some circumstances." But that wordiness gets in the way of the sales pitch. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Real conversation, short version:

Marketing: We want this product to do everything.

Engineering: Well, could you be a little more specific?.

Marketing: What's not specific about "everything"?

Other version about trying to get the company to focus its efforts better: "Can't we just focus on everything?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.228.123.121 (talk) 03:40, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

173.228.123.121 (talk) 03:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

How do humans fulfill their biological functions during wartime?

I have seen images of military camps before. The military is supposed to camp there, eat, sleep, and pee. But, doesn't the military have to maintain vigilance in case the other side decides to take advantage of the army's rest state? If the other side has alternating military forces that fight during the day and night, then won't that defeat the opponent that only fights during the day and sleeps at night, or vice versa? Anyway, how do militaries make sure that the camp is protected from the other side's military or the locals who may become violent against the opponent's military for invading their homeland? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

That's why they have guards on watch. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:16, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

e/c

E,g: Watchtower & Patrolling & Reconnaissance & Redoubt (more as "a temporary or supplementary fortification" than our article detail) & perimeter security systems, etc. 107.15.152.93 (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

And, of course, (electrified) fences and walls, manned gatehouses, boom barriers, barbed wire, objects placed in the road, searchlights, patrols with dogs, motion sensors, minefields... Alcherin (talk) 13:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

See 01 and 02 64.170.21.194 (talk) 23:22, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

1) Full-scale attacks at night weren't much of an option prior to the inventions of flares and later night vision equipment. Attacking in the dark would have only been possible then with a full moon, in areas with a light-colored surface (like a white sand). To attempt a full-scale attack in the dark would have resulted in killing many of your own people, having your horses break their legs by stepping in holes, etc. Also, a night attack may tend to favor the defenders, as they would be better hidden in darkness, in trenches and foxholes, than attackers out in the open. An exception is if the defenders lit fires to keep warm, etc.

2) Commando raids are a bit different. There the goal is to sneak in, hit the target, and retreat before the enemy can respond. Darkness can help here. (In the move The Alamo, one such raid destroyed an enemy cannon.)

3) It is important to have your soldiers be able to be ready at a moment's notice. See Minutemen for one example. This applies whether they are awake or asleep. So, you can bring your full forces to bear, if attacked, in short order, at any time of the night or day.

4) Having multiple shifts would also limit how many people you can attack with. StuRat (talk) 02:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Gideon#Night_attack --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Also we have Night Attack at Târgovişte (1462), a failed night attack by Jacobite army on the eve of the Battle of Culloden (1745), a night amphibious cliff assault on the French camp at the start of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham (1759) and I'm sure there are many others. All you need is a bit of moonlight and some prior reconnaissance. Alansplodge (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, In the old days, warfare actually had front lines. Rest camps were placed some distance in the rear... so those in the rest camp had some warning (given by the front line troops) if the enemy attacked. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes. See front line and rear (military). --Jayron32 15:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, in some instances. In others, the campaign consisted of a force marching into enemy territory and making camp each night. An outer line would be formed by outposts called pickets, who would withdraw when the enemy approached (known as "driving in the pickets"). Close protection was provided by sentries or guards as mentioned above. An example of a camp being destroyed by an enemy attack was the Battle of Isandlwana (1879), although that was in broad daylight. Alansplodge (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

The answer to the title question is "Usually not well." See for example Trench warfare. The OP's search for generic solutions to a small set of warfaring problems sounds as though we are being asked to help design a video game. For a view of real issues that takes account of different prevailing centuries see Military logistics. Note that real soldiers tend to defecate, there will be those who rape and pillage, or have infiltrated to spy for the enemy. Battlefield medicine is the art of treating war wounds such as these but perhaps not all at once. Blooteuth (talk) 15:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Fighting during the day rather than at night also means that you don't have to invest heavily in infared/night vision equipment for both soldiers and vehicles for visibility, and it's easier for reservists called up from civilian life and morale in general to fight during the hours a human is normally awake, rather than having to adjust their sleep cycle. See also Night combat#Effects of night. Alcherin (talk) 16:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

This short description of military logistics may be useful for our discussion. Besides that provided by the State for the troops, for most of history, the average soldier was expected to provide for their own food. This meant they may have purchased it, but in reality, for many armies, they subsisted on looting: euphemistically called "foraging" (when stealing food) and "quartering" (when stealing accommodations), basically soldiers were expected to find their own food, and this often meant walking into someone's house and taking it. This is also sometimes known as "living off the land", again a nicer bit of euphemism than "stealing from the peasants". --Jayron32 16:34, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

"Quartering" was precisely why the Third Amendment to the United States Constitution was passed, which severely restricts the practice. As to "foraging", as Napoleon learned, relying on it seriously exposes you to the enemy resorting to scorched earth tactics. Napoleon's invasion of Russia failed partly due to not preparing for the weather. But the total reliance on "foraging" was a major undoing. Had the French army had its own logistics chain for the supply of food, scorched earth tactics would have hurt a lot less. Eliyohub (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Also soldiers out foraging are not available for combat, susceptible to be captured or killed, and may turn neutral civilians solidly against their side. They might also find liquor and get drunk. Leaving poisoned or infected supplies around for them to steal is another possibility. StuRat (talk) 20:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

For that reason, the British Army supplied rations to their troops from early in the 18th century, combined with harsh penalties for looting; see British military rations during the French and Indian War. The downside is that armies cost more and need a better logistic "tail". Alansplodge (talk) 08:59, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps, but note that the Quartering Acts were one of the major grievances of the American colonists against the British, hence the aforementioned amendment. So whilst looting may have been banned, "quartering" obviously went on. Our article on the acts elaborates on these laws. Eliyohub (talk) 05:30, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd never heard of that. A later version, still in use in the Second World War, was billeting where soldiers were foisted on local householders, but they were entitled to an allowance, at least in theory. My father was billeted with some nice people in Collumpton in 1939 and they corresponded for years afterwards. Alansplodge (talk) 11:11, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

May 4

No money = no marriage?

Q.1. There is a scene in Great Expectations (2012) where Herbert Pocket says he wants to marry so-and-so, but he doesn't have the money yet; that's why he intends to delay marriage. In the novel A Christmas Carol, by Charles Dickens, there is that girl who tells Ebenezer Scrooge that she's a "dowerless" girl. The same concept seems to flow: no money means no marriage. If that is the case, then how did the poor peasants get married?

Q.2. If one is living on a farm, then would one receive a sexual education by observing and manipulating farm animals? Or did people just think that if a male and a female were put together in the same house, then babies would appear inexplicably? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I split your 2 questions for ease of comprehension. -- Jack of Oz 03:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

According to Sex education, before formal sex education courses, about-to-be-married persons were typically told about this by their parents prior to their marriage, if they hadn't figured it out already from watching animals or walking in on another couple in the act. According to Dowry#Europe, the wealthy sometimes payed dowries for the poor as a form of charity, and from the looks of it, the dowry for a poor woman might not have been that much back then. Premarital sex mentions that in such times, marriage was expected to follow an out-of-wedlock pregnancy. So maybe the parents could be encouraged to relax their conditions on the dowry if you forced the issue? But that's just my speculation. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:38, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

On the other question it's not the absence of evidence which is the cause any of unwilling pregnancies, but rather a preference for not knowing. Thus all times there were ones who could definitely deliver information about the process, women who had themselves survived any series of childbearing years. --Askedonty (talk) 08:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

50.4.236.254 -- during the 19th century in England, most couples who aspired to live a middle-class lifestyle after their marriage had to have a middle-class family income already lined up (in one way or another), or it would not be realistic for them to get married in the first place. Dowry payments in the formal sense weren't too common outside aristocratic elites, but it was quite common for both the bride's family and the groom's family to make what contributions they reasonably could towards the couple's future expenses in setting up and running a new household (sometimes formalized as legal "settlements").
It was a little different for the lower classes, but Malthus wrote about the preventive check of delaying the age of marriage among those who can't afford it... AnonMoos (talk) 04:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I guess there's no Misplaced Pages article on "preventive check(s)", though there probably should be... AnonMoos (talk) 04:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I've redirected the term to Malthusianism. Rojomoke (talk) 09:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The dowry was the property that the bride brought to the marriage, and was often subject to a legal agreement known as a marriage settlement. Sometimes this was known as a "portion". (Not strictly a reliable source, but a readable overview: The Regency Estate: How it was Apportioned.) Some of the portable items the bride brought are described under trousseau and hope chest. What the groom brought to the marriage could better be described as his prospects. A young man needed to have finished his apprenticeship, or the equivalent for those of the professional classes, and have established himself in the world, before responsible parents would consent to their daughter's marriage. So he needed a good job, first and foremost, or a share in an established company. He had to be able to "keep" a family (remember that children, once they started coming, might arrive with unpredictable frequency). The assumption (in many of the gradations of social class described by Dickens) is that respectable married women did not work outside the home, and did not need to earn money. As for "poor peasants", Herbert Pocket was first encountered as a "pale young gentleman", and although Scrooge's boyhood sweetheart was poor, I could read no inference of country life. Agricultural workers could, in theory, go to "the big house" (their employer, the squire) for help, or to the vicar. Feudalism was dead, but noblesse oblige. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 12:43, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Did the ancient Chinese explore and map out Siberia (North Asia)?

Did any ancient Chinese explorer go to the greater Siberia region and make maps of it? What was his name? Did the ancient Korean and Japanese also explore and map out Siberia? 2607:FEA8:A760:324:ADB0:8DB4:AE65:6453 (talk) 12:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

How far back do you consider to be ancient? In the 2nd c. BC, Zhang Qian went to what is now Tajikistan and along the way ‘discovered’ tribes in Central Asia3 The Chinese knew of the Xirong (“western warlike people”) and Beidi (“northern barbarians”) peoples as early as the Shang Dynasty (1765-1122 BCE). During the same millennium, trade between from Badakhshan (Afghanistan/Pakistan) through Yarkland (Xinjiang) to China was common. So, it might be more accurate to ask when the Sredny Stog nomads explored what later became China.DOR (HK) (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

History of Siberia and Prehistory of Siberia are places you can go to help you research this. --Jayron32 14:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Base on Chinese cosmology, they were aware of Lake Baikal and thought it was a Northern Sea where the Northern Dragon King lived. And according to the Lake Baikal article, the Chinese fought the Han-Xiongnu War up to its shores.. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Not specific examples of explorers, but they definitely knew of, made military expeditions into and claimed parts of Siberia; see Han–Xiongnu War, and the Tang Dynasty Beiting Protectorate (zh) and Protectorate General to Pacify the North (zh). Sakhalin#History provides some information on Japanese exploration and colonization to their north, albeit in the 1600s. Korean kingdoms at various points in history also had loose control over some of eastern Siberia/Manchuria (e.g. Goguryeo, Balhae).

L. Monaco

Does anybody know when L. Monaco a 19th-century photographer on 702 Market Street, California was active from (i.e. specific year range)? Also what did the L stand for in his name?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

"Seventeen year old Louis Monaco arrived in California from his native Switzerland in 1859... In the late 1860s he became interested in photography and eventually established his first studio on C Street in Virginia City. He moved the studio to Eureka Nevada in 1871 and was soon acknowledged as one of the premiere photographers of that booming mining town. His younger brother, JB, newly arrived from the "old country" joined him there in 1875. The two brothers remained in Eureka through good times and bad until a severely declining Eureka economy prompted their move to San Francisco in 1888". They moved to 702 Market St after "approximately two years". The same article goes on to say that Louis died in 1887, but that must be a typo for "1897". Alansplodge (talk) 16:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I also found these pictures of the Monaco family in the ruins of 702 Market St following the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. Alansplodge (talk) 16:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, so a photograph labeled "L. Monaco" with the Market Street address would most likely be from between 1890 and 1897, correct?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Correct (most likely). Alansplodge (talk) 08:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

How did humans travel before knowledge about other languages became readily available?

If a human wants to travel from Point A, which is in the Middle East, to Point B, which is in China, and doesn't know a single thing about the culture or language, then how would he communicate with the locals who look like humans and seem to talk like humans? For example, Jews migrated from the Middle East to China and settled there and interbred with the natives and built synagogues. How long does it take for one group of people to learn a language of another group of people without bilingual dictionaries? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The example of Lewis and Clark is instructive; they found a translator at one end of the journey who knew enough to translate the language with the next group of people. Then, they'd take someone from that group along to translate for the next group. At one point, a chain of translators as deep as 4-5 languages would get going. here we see the example of English -> French -> Hidatsa -> Shoshone and then back again. It was laborious, but it got the job done. --Jayron32 18:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

How did the translator know of European languages? Could people marry people from another tribe without a common language and the child will understand both parents' languages? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Did you read the article i linked or are you just riffing on ideas in your head without actually looking at what I have provided? It actually lists a chain of translations from a specific example with specific people who each knew two languages well enough to translate from the last person in the chain to the next one. It's not complicated. --Jayron32 18:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Some languages were known across a whole region as a lingua franca. Marco Polo for instance, is thought to have had a knowledge of Persian, which was understood at the court of the Yuan emperors. Latin and Greek (and later French) were understood by educated people right across Europe, and Arabic across the Middle East and much of Africa. When Francis Xavier went to Japan in 1547, he just had to teach himself Japanese from scratch - see History of the Catholic Church in Japan. By the time William Adams arrived in Japan in 1600, he was saved from having to communicate with impromptu sign-language by a Christian convert at the Shogunal court who spoke Portuguese, which Adams had a working knowledge of. Alansplodge (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Also there is often a genetic relationship between languages from the same family. A Romanian friend claimed to be able to understand spoken Spanish, despite having no knowledge of the language. Sadly, he found that Spaniards can't understand Romanian. Alansplodge (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Given time one side could teach the other their language - or at least what was necessary for communication at first. It's not actually as difficult as it sounds, since many words can be learned by sight, actions and repetition. Any children born and raised in areas where the two sides met (particularly those of mixed birth) could also easily gain a working understanding of both languages. Alternatively pidgin/creole languages were be developed to allow basic trade-related communication between the two sides, for example Chinese Pidgin English and Macanese Patois. Merchants and sailors would spend plenty of time resting and resupplying after reaching foreign ports, after all. And finally as mentioned above knowledge of intermediate languages could aid communication - e.g. the Portuguese could use Arabic to communicate with Indians. Alcherin (talk) 20:56, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

See also Language contact. Alcherin (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Are you the same person as the one who keeps on putting similar type questions here with the ip 50.4.236.254 ? Dmcq (talk) 22:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Both IP's geolocate to the same spot in Ohio. The one in this section specifically goes to Ohio State U. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:43, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The Romani people migrated from India to Europe.
Sleigh (talk) 04:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Picture Post cover

I have just got hold of a copy of Three Plays by Laurie Lee. On the cover is a photograph of Lee writing. On the wall in thebackground is a Picture Post cover with a dark-haired woman in a blouse. I would like to know which issue the cover is from, and the story the picture accompanied, and the identity of the woman too if possible. You can see the picture here. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

If you google image "picture post magazine front covers", which I just did but have not examined the results yet, it's possible the cover is in there. If all else fails, it appears there's a pay site that has an archive of the magazine's pictures. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:35, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

It ran weekly from 1938 to 1957 so there's the best part of a thousand possibilities. Alansplodge (talk) 08:28, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Google image search for "picture post" cover gives a more targeted selection than Bugs's suggestion, but I can't see that particular cover in the results. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Government of North Korea powers on paper, regardless of practical reality

1. On paper, who is the most powerful official in North Korea? Is it Kim Jong-un as the chairman of the State Affairs Commission, or Kim Yong-nam as the President of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly, or Pak Pong-ju as the Prime Minister of North Korea, or someone else? I'm ignoring the President, since I doubt that many government responsibilities, even on paper, are assigned to dead people.
2. On paper, do any Workers' Party officials have any governmental power? I understand that there's a lot of overlap between Party officeholders and government officeholders; I'm just talking about the governmental powers (if any) that on paper are assigned to Party offices. And again, ignoring the General Secretary of the Party, since he is dead. Nyttend (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Corpses have been put on trial, complete with counsel appointed to represent them. The North Koreans are obviously doing an old practice in reverse. Eliyohub (talk) 05:32, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

May 5

ATOS work capability assessment

I think that means Atos rather than the all caps version. Apparently Prince Philip announced his retirement yesterday at age 95, but then was pronounced fit to work by this agency. What's this supposed to mean and why did they check him? I doubt that he applied to go on the dole (some take the view that he's already on it), or that anyone that age would be turned down. Is this something normally only done on regular working stiffs who are trying to get benefits, or what? Thanks! 173.228.123.121 (talk) 01:05, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh heh, nm. Apparently that article was something the Brits call "hiuma". I didn't figure it out at first. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I like the bit about him volunteering to run a checkout at Greggs :-) Nyttend (talk) 05:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

The Rochdale Herald is a satirical website - and quite a funny one. Wymspen (talk) 07:53, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Hiuma? A province of Poland? Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Okay, the penny has dropped - "hiuma" equals "hoo-moor" for those who can't be bothered with yods. Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

From the Latin, Humira. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:21, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

By the way, Alansplodge, Hiuma, or Hiiumaa, is not a part of Poland (it's three countries away); it might have been part of Poland centuries ago, but judging by File:Rzeczpospolita2nar.png, I'm guessing not. Nyttend (talk) 11:12, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

BTW, the article you linked to does basically cover why the Atos joke came up, it also links to Work Capability Assessment which has more details. Note in particular that it says Atos only deals with Personal Independence Payment now, the normal WCA is carried out by Maximus Inc. Nil Einne (talk) 12:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw about WCA and Atos. Philip stepped down from his longtime ribbon-cutting duties at an advanced age, so I imagined that people might infer that he was gravely ill, and his going to get a physical exam from Atos in order to assure people he wasn't about to collapse. "Hiuma" is from a French movie whose name I'd forgotten (I thought it was called "Wit" but apparently not). 173.228.123.121 (talk) 19:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

You're thinking of Patrice Leconte's Ridicule, much concerned with the difference between wit and "hiuma". --Antiquary (talk) 08:36, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Rdicule is a great film, thanks for mentioning it. μηδείς (talk) 23:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Susanovo-Mythen Circle

Does anybody know what this is? It is related to Japanese history and culture. This man here: Alexander Slawik, was writing a book on it. The German version (translation may not be accurate) is: Susanowo-Mythenkreis und zur kulturhistori-schen Stellung des Izumo-Gebietes im alten Japan. What is it> I can't locate a Misplaced Pages article, or German article, or google books, web. The man who was collecting material on it, was an absolute expert on it, with over 60+ year of study (he died at age 97 and was still working), so I suspect it is probably extremly byzantine. Hope it is not too hard. I would like to known, so I can get an article on it. Any help is appreciated. scope_creep (talk) 13:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

"Susanowo" is Susanoo-no-Mikoto. "Mythenkreis" would be something like "myth cycle". DuncanHill (talk) 13:49, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

So, the sentence in German you quoted is "Susanovo myth-cycle and the cultural-historical position of the Izumo area in ancient Japan" DuncanHill (talk) 13:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks DuncanHill. I just found it, this second, after searching for about an hour. I'm glad there is an article on it. scope_creep (talk) 15:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Price stipulation before capitalism

Were prices in the pre capitalist era also subject to markt forces? What has changed when societies became capitalist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.177.98.121 (talk) 13:59, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Some form of free market forces have existed for all of history. What we think of as the "capitalist era" represents a change in thinking of macroeconomics from wealth-as-control-of-resources (so-called mercantalism) to wealth-as-control-of-means-of-production (capitalism). That doesn't mean that markets didn't happen or that concepts like supply and demand determining prices didn't happen. What happened is that people started studying how such markets operate. They didn't invent those market forces, they just codified them. On the small scale, the price of goods has always been determined by "What you are willing to sell it for, and what I am willing to pay" Some industries have been protected by state monopoly and heavy regulation, but even in so-called capitalist societies, there are some of those too (i.e. health insurance and utilities in the U.S>). It isn't like Adam Smith woke up one day and invented the idea that people should sell goods in markets, and that prices fluctuate with supply and demand. --Jayron32 14:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Re: 'On the small scale, the price of goods has always been determined by "What you are willing to sell it for, and what I am willing to pay" ' ... not always. As far back as the Code of Hammurabi there were attempts at price controls, even on a small scale, such as the fare to cross a river by ferry boat: (section 275:). StuRat (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

31.177.98.121 -- Even in the most decentralized possible form of pre-modern trade — "silent barter", where the two parties don't recognize any common authority, don't talk to each other, and stay at a physical distance from each other — there's negotiation over prices... AnonMoos (talk) 15:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

See also: black market, which could be seen as proto-capitalism, and exists in virtually all economic systems. 107.15.152.93 (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

And, for an example of "What has changed when societies became capitalist?", see: Sprouts of capitalism perhaps. Although that article isn't particularly helpful, China's experimental endeavors in capitalism could provide insight into societal changes. 107.15.152.93 (talk) 19:20, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

"Airplane Egg" got burned by cargo cult?

I refer to this story: "PS I like the story about the cargo cult folks who saw airplanes during WWII for the first time. One crashed with a bomb on board. They tried to hatch the "airplane egg" by warming it in a fire. Another case of a group who didn't have a clue of the "real" physics of what they saw, and used a flawed analogy to interpret the data." אילן שמעוני (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

This sounds like apocryphal mambo jumbo. Fake news. Aspro (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

The earliest version of this I can find to this story on line is from Niven & Barnes 1981 sci-fi adventure, Dream Park. It's then mentioned again verbatim in a 1994 google discussion group. See here.

Does Niven cites any source? אילן שמעוני (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

No. You can read what they wrote by searching the google result I linked to above, then search (ctrl-f) from the bottom up. (Otherwise you will hit "thatch" 11 times first. Personally, I think it's apocryphal. I don't see them getting a fire hot enough, or thinking it wouldn't kill the egg. μηδείς (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

First, let's be clear that cargo cults were real and were in fact a manifestation of people not understanding the events they had experienced. And second, that Dream Park is a work of fiction, so we don't expect the author to provide references: it's not evidence that what people talked about is true, but it's also not evidence that it's false. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I was searching for a ref on this and ran into this comment to a blog post: "I first heard of Cargo Cults back in 1981 when Larry Niven and Steven Barnes used them in their book Dream Park. I thought they were made up, but I believe there was an afterword explaining that they were real and that one of them once tried to hatch the egg of a plane (a bomb) with disastrous results." totally unreliable source, but if someone has that book could they please check the back for some sort of notes? --Guy Macon (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh, you're right! I'd forgotten that the book has an afterword, and this does cite sources. The afterword begins:

The authors had a wonderful time researching Dream Park. As we hope you will agree, Melanesian myth patterns are as bizarre, convoluted and imaginative as any in the world.

All of the various monsters and most of the magics are taken from the literature available concerning New Guinea and its sibling isles. Road Belong Cargo by Peter Lawrence was the single most informative work; Albert and Sylvia Frerich's Anutu Conquers in New Guinea; Benjamin T. Butcher's My Friends the New Guinea Headhunters; Roy Wagner's Habu; and Ian Hogben's The Island of Menstruating Men (honest!) are also worth reading.

And about a page later, it says:

One tribe did indeed try to hatch an "airplane's egg" in a fire, with results better imagined than witnessed.

These passages are on pages 431–432 of the 1982 paperback from Ace. So presumably the bomb-as-egg story comes from one of the books cited. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 07:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

So it may be true. I wish I could get to the bottom of this. אילן שמעוני (talk) 10:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• The books listed in Dream Park are a bibliography. When asked for a source I said there was none because none was cited or quoted directly in the WP sense. Of course I have known of the cargo cults since the 70's, but have not heard of this story elsewhere. Searching Google Books, I found only these two results, mentioning that the inhabitants of Rabaul (a township of East New Guinea) believe the planes dropped eggs that would "hatch":

Road belong cargo: a study of the cargo movement in the Southern ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9ioHAQAAIAAJ

Peter Lawrence - 1967 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

a study of the cargo movement in the Southern Madang District, New Guinea Peter Lawrence. failed to retain ... dead in the area. I told him how natives around Rabaul believed that a giant egg, filled with cargo, would descend from Heaven.

Matupit: Land, Politics, and Change Among the Tolai of New Britain

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0520015568

Arnold Leonard Epstein - 1969 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions

Yali14 had taught that the dead would travel to the land of the whites, and they would then send the cargo to the native peoples. ... A number of elders followed, all speaking in similar terms, and threatening to deny access to their own egg ... As in the present instance, the councillor opened the meeting by reporting various matters decided on by the Rabaul Council or by an administrative officer. This was ...

μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

American citizens with official titles of nobility or peerages

Are there any American citizens living with official titles of nobility or peerages (not titles used by royals or nobles of abolished monarchies)? And theoritically, can peers from current European monarchies settled in the US, gain US citizenship, pass down their titles to their children born in the US with US citizenships and effectively form an American branch of that noble family. Also how many of the European monarchies still have an extensive peerage besides the UK and Spain and do they allow those holders to leave the country and take up foreign citizenships while still allowing them to be held by these people and pass to children without their native country's citizenship? Most peers I believe are irrelevant in modern European constitutional monarchies, so their prolong absence from their native country would not be much of a problem; it's just a question if they can keep those titles for ceremonial purpose outside their native countries under these circumstances.--96.41.155.253 (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

There's the 5th Baron Haden-Guest. DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

From our Hereditary peer article: "Nothing prevents a British peerage from being held by a foreign citizen (although such peers cannot sit in the House of Lords, while the term foreign does not include Irish or Commonwealth citizens). Several descendants of George III were British peers and German subjects; the Lords Fairfax of Cameron were American citizens for several generations." - Nunh-huh 21:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

So, a foreign citizen can certainly hold their UK titles. But whether their country of citizenship recognises such a title or even allows them to use it is a different matter. -- Jack of Oz 22:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

In the States, no one "holding any office of profit or trust" under the federal gov't may accept a foreign title without the consent of Congress. See Title of Nobility Clause. I am not aware of any such restriction on private citizens, nor of any requirement that they relinquish the titles before beginning an office of profit or trust. --Trovatore (talk) 22:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, the first sentence of that section is "No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States." So titles of nobility, regardless of source, are essentially legally irrelevant in America. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

You mean Burger King isn't actual royalty? :(   -Guy Macon (talk) 00:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Only within the fast food empire. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:58, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Granting titles is a different thing from recognising titles granted by other countries. -- Jack of Oz 09:49, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

May 6

Under Hawaiian Skies

Can someone help me find a scholarly review of "Under Hawaiian Skies" (also exist as a second larger edition) which speaks about influences and history behind how the book was written? Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Opposition to the Second Boer War

Are there parts of the world where land is sometimes sold in circles?

Are there any not in those circular irrigation areas? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:07, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Public Land Commission sold off or granted legal title to square plots of land to new settlers. Often this land was semi-dessert. Some of those land owners where fortunate enough to find that the was an aquifer of good water below them. Hence they could employ those rotary irrigation booms that you refer to. But the plots themselves are square – just as the Public Land Commission surveyor originally laid them out. P.S. Didn't you learn all this in skool ? Aspro (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

P.P.S. Didn't you learn that dessert is something you eat?  :) -- Jack of Oz 20:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

semi-dessert is for truckers only (if they finish their vegetables).  ;) —107.15.152.93 (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Well I thought the circular irrigation areas might be too easy since all it'd take would be a legal system that allows farmers to split up their squares into the circle and the corners and sell the corners to oil companies or mineral speculators or God knows who else. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:05, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

There's plenty of other things to do with those areas, like roads, grain silos, storage sheds, barns, parking areas for farm equipment, etc. StuRat (talk) 20:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

One cannot divide land area into contiguous circles -- hex regions, however, would work well. -107.15.152.93 (talk) 20:44, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Circles and concave diamonds would work though. Or a dude could just decide to sell a circular part of his land (if that's even allowed, I am not a lawyer) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Rather than sell it, it might be easier to rent it, as was done to sharecroppers. StuRat (talk) 21:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• One could google cicular plot for sale. μηδείς (talk) 22:26, 6 May 2017 (UTC)