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Revision as of 20:03, 26 September 2006

Ultima Dragons

Fan club for the Ultima series of games, fails WP:V by not having multiple independent, reliable, third-party sources available for it. Recury 14:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Quoting my earlier deprodding rationale: "Any active club, run since 1994, that has a membership roster huge enough to crash your neighbour's Amiga, is probably notable". As for verifiability, we can trust the site itself as a primary source. I'm pretty sure I've seen mentions of the group in mags, just can't remember where right now, it's been years. The bottom line is, anyone who's interested of Ultima series of games is bound to run to these people sooner or later. (disclusure: I happen to be a member, just not an active participant in the inner workings of the group or anything.) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
  • WP:V says, "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on that topic." "Mentions" would not be sufficient, as they are considered trivial coverage. Recury 14:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. Here's a small question that came in mind, though - exactly what in the article is questionable enough to warrant verification from third-party sources? Please be specific. (My favorite part from RS: "Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence".) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm sure it's all true enough, but that doesn't change the fact that Misplaced Pages shouldn't have an article on it in the first place. Recury 14:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
        • And exactly why shouldn't we have an article in the first place? I believe you just shot your arguments: We have here a group that quite likely satisfies notability criteria, and there's not much to complain about verifiability either, if you can't find anything that really needs strict verifying from third parties. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 06:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The newsgroup exists, that is a given, and participation on it continues. You can also find mention of it in the Ultima Online for Dummies book as I recall. Possibly some others. If there's anything in the article that's disputed though, delete it. Mister.Manticore 14:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't doubt that it exists, only that having an article on it agrees with Misplaced Pages policy. I should also emphasize that I don't contest any of the information that is in the article itself. Recury 14:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, given that there's no contentious information in the article, self-published sources are fine with me, and like I said, I think it is in Ultima Online for Dummies. Possibly in some of the other for Dummies books, I don't know for sure. Might even have been included in some Origin products, as a link to their fanclub, but I'm not sure. Oh, and I just found this: which mentions that there was a tribute to the club in the form of the Dragon Edition of Ultima IX. And Origin links to them which seems to make them an official club as well. Mister.Manticore 15:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Again, mentions are not good enough. Recury 16:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Not enough for what? Your question is about verifiability, but you aren't disputing anything that can't be observed on the Web by anyone. Heck, you might even find them mentioned in the Special Thanks section of some of the games or their manuals. Do you really need more? Mister.Manticore 16:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
          • The article goes into detail about the club's origins on Prodigy. Where on the World Wide Web might this be observed? The article tells us what the customs of the club are. Where on the World Wide Web have these customs been documented and fact checked? Uncle G 17:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
            • On the Web, where you can read the UDIC's account of it. Possible on google groups if they've got the postings announcing the formation of the news group. See also WP:RS about Self-published sources when providing an account of themselves. If you want to provide any other account, I suggest you find your sources. Mister.Manticore 20:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
              • "On the Web" is not an answer to my questions. Please answer my questions. Uncle G 20:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
              • Sigh, is someting about an autobiographical entry not clear to you or what? Do you have a sincere dispute with the account given by the club about their existence or what? Seriously, if somebody wanted to verify this in the way you wanted, they could, since this is a factual account but that would be way outside the needs of Misplaced Pages. Mister.Manticore 14:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:V. TJ Spyke 21:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Has notability, don't think WP:V applies in this case. (signing) SirFozzie 23:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. WP:V doesn't just apply when you feel like it. It's a goddamn policy. -Hit bull, win steak 23:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the various Wikipolicies quite wisely acknowledge they aren't an iron-clad straitjacket. Besides, the group has been around since at least 1996 according to the IAW. Do you think they've been lying for 10 years? I think given the lack of any claims that any information in the article is wrong, given the lack of any comments on the Internet that they're wrong, that well, the principle that a person's account of themself can be reliable about themself. Mister.Manticore 00:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• A direct quote from WP:V: "Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is one of Misplaced Pages's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these three policies are based are negotiable only at the foundation level, not at the level of the English-language Misplaced Pages." (Emphasis mine) -Hit bull, win steak 02:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

And if you read further down on the page: Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as: (blah, blah, all things relevant and not in dispute here). The fact is, there are things that need robust verifiability, and things that don't. Given that anybody can check their website, I'm not seeing any problem with verifiability. Mister.Manticore 03:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• If you want to use the site in that manner, you'll need to preface every piece of information extracted from the site with a phrase like "The Ultima Dragons website claims that...", in order to bring it in line with that kind of usage. And of course, there's still the bit of WP:RS that says, "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." Maybe it would be different if there were reliable outside sources, but there aren't. -Hit bull, win steak 09:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Note the word largely. That means there are exceptions, doesn't it?. This, I contend is a clear exception. Why? Because the article is autobiographical. Since this information has been presented for at least 10 years according to the Internet Wayback machine, I doubt they're making it up. And seriously, you can check the internet for Ultima Dragons sites. There are plenty of people who claim membership. Do you think they'd exist if the club didn't? Mister.Manticore 19:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Doesn't assert notability. Arbusto 02:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Notability was not listed a reason for the nomination, but I assert notability as it is a large club of several thousand members of a clearly notable family of games, and it has long-standing existence. Mister.Manticore 03:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's not notable. It's a damn fan club for a video game. I am questioning the notability of it, I'm just doing it by saying it isn't important enough for anyone not associated with it to have written about it. Recury 13:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I found some posts on Usenet that indicate that Richard Garriott in several interviews mentioned that the Dragon Edition of Ultima IX was named after him. Pity they didn't say what months, it might make searching easier(still, I will try, so cut me some slack on looking for them, if you please). But still, I think it indicates that notability does exist. After all, if the creator of a well-known game series mentions them as the reason to make a collector's edition of a notable game, that is something substantial. Mister.Manticore 19:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't. It's cool and all that they seem to recognize you guys, but it's still just a fan club for a video game. Try to look at this from the point of view of someone who doesn't play video games. I still stand by the argument that if you haven't been written about, (not just mentioned, but discussed) then you aren't notable, which is one that Misplaced Pages policy agrees with. Recury 20:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You guys? First, I am not, nor have I ever been an Ultima Dragon(I have, however, played the Ultima games). Second, looking at it from the point of view of someone who doesn't play video games(let alone hasn't played the Ultima series), I realize that that person wouldn't know about the importance of the Ultima series, let alone the fans of it, so IF for some reason they were looking for it, explaining what it was would be quite important. I certainly would't say such a person has any standing to question their notability. They just wouldn't know enough about the subject. Especially one like this one which doesn't always attract that much journalistic or academic interest. (Though Richard Garriot, who does attract that interest, has apparently spoken about them, at least according to what I've found on the usenet site. Now I just need to find the articles. It may take some time, since I'm searching the Wayback machine to see if I can find the old articles.).

Mister.Manticore 03:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I did find mention of them in an interview with Lord British through the Wayback machine . It's possible there are others, but I don't want to dig around on old gaming sites if there's either no need, or no point. Mister.Manticore 03:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment However, on examining the article, and the UDIC website, I felt it was a copyvio so I have purged several sections of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mister.Manticore (talk • contribs) .
  • Ehhh... I wrote the "Membership" and "Customs" sections myself. I believe I didn't copy any passages directly from the web site. Granted, it was some spectacularly garbageful stuff from years back... --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 06:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, it felt a little close to it for me, and a little rewriting won't hurt, especially since some of the article was more conversational and friendly than I'd recommend. Mister.Manticore 14:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• And a random comment, putting it here just because I feel the need to ramble a bit: I don't believe verifiability is reason for deletion if the notability can otherwise be established from the sources. In AfD, notability is much more of a factor. We're supposed to be debating whether or not this topic needs to exist as a stand-alone article. Lack of verifiability is a cleanup issue: You can remove unverifiable material from the article, and merge the rest if the article isn't big enough. Lack of verifiability is only an issue when there's absolutely no material that would speak for the notability, for example, saying that a book is a bestseller without telling the book's ISBN or even publisher, and then finding less than 10 google hits for the author, all unrelated. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 06:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

In addiotion to that, there's a difference between verifiability of a theory, and verifiability of a fact. There's little, if any theory in the article (nothing like say, Ultima Online's success killed Ultima X), and mostly non-contested facts of an autobiographical nature. Even if the facts aren't verified robustly, that they could be (because they are facts) is a reason to not delete. Mister.Manticore 19:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Though I admit bias. However, WP:V is NOT a valid grounds for deletion. - -- Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Misplaced Pages) 20:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

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