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Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because...

First, the deletion type listed is for an "organized event". That is not the case here. Regardless, I cannot imagine any serious scholar ever arguing that such a unique event in history is not notable.

I suspect TheGracefulSlick dislikes the title which is probably the true motivation for the deletion request (I am just guessing). If that is the case, though, deletion is not the solution.

--MC (141.131.2.3 (talk) 23:02, 9 May 2017 (UTC))

Now the reason for the deletion has changed but my argument is the same. And as far as "No news hits for this term", this is untrue, though there are not many yet (give it till morning). I included one example hit in the references, though. --MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 23:05, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I literally heard MSNBC anchor say this term. It's being coined as time continues on. --Imsodrunklol

The thing is prodded. We have 7 days to see if Bloomberg's characterization gains traction. Doubt it will be a notable term, but certainly the firing of Comey is a notable event. May need an appropriate rename.Dlohcierekim (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

RFC: Deletion + Name

There are some active arguments going on related to this new article. Because some editors seem very eager to push for a decision I am putting out a pair of RFCs to answer these questions. --MC

Deletion proposal

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

A couple of editors have proposed deleting the article. The rationale for deletion seems to have changed over time so I will allow those editors to comment as they wish. But the question is "Should this article be deleted?" -- MC 2605:6000:ec16:c000:eda6:ef34:694a:122c (talk) 02:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep - Comey's firing is clearly a significant historical event. It is only the second time in history that an FBI director has been fired and the first time this has happened during an FBI investigation into members and former members of the administration. It is being widely covered in the news media. -- MC
• Keep - If the dismissal of Sally Yates is worthy of an article, this certainly is. Also, as MC said, the firing of such a high level government official is pretty significant. --pluma♫ ♯ 06:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Keep - as above, this is clearly historically significant and is being widely covered in the news media.203.219.158.105 (talk) 09:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Uhhh... we have a page for that: WP:AfD.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but the article kept getting moved around and regardless, discussions on AfD don't always attract everybody who might have an interest in the article (people tend to focus more on the article's Talk page). So I wanted to ensure that anybody with an opinion actually spoke up. --MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 17:30, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep - this is an event that has intense press coverage, and that the more it is covered the more intricacies are being revealed. It merits having this separate article. (talk) user:Al83tito 18:22, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Moreover, how could an article that appears thoroughly referenced (with now over 50 references), and is clearly notable, be proposed for deletion? Without being able to see the actual arguments made in that regard, it does seem unreasonable to delete. Only two possibilities come to mind: because of a proposal to be merged with another existing article (which I think is not warranted in this case), or because the article is so biased that rather than being improved it should just be deleted from Misplaced Pages. I would only encourage editors to make sure that the article remains neutral and factual... and that starts with a name that is neutral and descriptive rather than a name product of media hyperbole (see my comment on that in the subsection below).(talk) user:Al83tito 18:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Name proposal

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is debate about the primary name for the article. The original name was Tuesday Night Massacre. It was then renamed to Firing of FBI Director James Comey. The question is "Which of these names (or a variant thereof) should be used?" -- MC 2605:6000:ec16:c000:eda6:ef34:694a:122c (talk) 02:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Use "Tuesday Night Massacre" -- MC

Though I don't have an extremely strong opinion, this name is clearly already trending and if we give it a few days I think the trending will only increase. E.g.

* Kawa, Luke (May 9, 2017). "Five Things You Need to Know to Start Your Day". Bloomberg News.

* Ellefson, Lindsey (May 9, 2017). "Nixon's 'Saturday Night Massacre' and #TuesdayNightMassacre Blow Up on Twitter After Comey Firing". Mediate.

* Roy, Jessica (May 9, 2017). "For the second time since Trump took office, people are talking about Nixon's 'Saturday Night Massacre'". LA Times.

* "Trump's Tuesday night massacre". SF Chronicle. May 9, 2017.

* Bunch, Will (May 9, 2017). "Trump's Tuesday Night Massacre puts U.S. on 'banana republic' brink". Philadelphia Inquirer.

* , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

I tend to believe that if there is a well-used, memorable name for a topic, it is preferable to use that instead of stringing together a random description like "Firing of FBI Director James Comey".

-- MC

• Keep name for now - Wait a couple of weeks to see what people are calling it then. This may not prove to be as infamous as the Saturday night equivalent, so the name might just be being used by the media now and die down later. --pluma♫ ♯ 06:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Firing is too emotive - No rush to change, but I would suggest something along the lines of dismissal as per Yate's article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.158.105 (talk) 09:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Firing of FBI Director James Comey for now. "Tuesday Night Massacre", while more colorful, is used pretty sparsely in sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect, this is patently false. See above. The TNM is being widely used by virtually every news source (though not in every article), as well as social media. --MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 17:22, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Use "Dismissal of FBI Director James Comey" is the right wording for the article's name. It is neutral and informative. Using the concept of massacre can tinge the article as having the appearance of being fundamentally biased (even if in fact it might not be). If later on (weeks or months from now, when the dust settles) an alternative naming for this event gets traction within popular culture and the event becomes commonly referred by that alternative name, then it would be the time to reconsider the naming. (talk) user:Al83tito 18:22, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Use "Dismissal of FBI Director James Comey" for above reasons. Avisnacks (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Use "Dismissal of James Comey as FBI Director" might be a solid compromise. Keeps James Comey the focus of the title while keeping the important information of what position he was fired from. Ashvio (talk) 19:54, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Dismissal of FBI Director James Comey or shorter Dismissal of James Comey – The "massacre" moniker is not WP:RECOGNIZABLE; the same argument was made at the Sally Yates dismissal article, which had been briefly titled "Monday night massacre". Probably by the end of Trump's first year in office, all weekdays will have been massacred. — JFG 21:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support "Dismissal of James Comey" per User:Al83tito and User:JFG. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 00:53, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Considering the volatile nature of the subject

The article looks reasonably fair and balanced. Well done, Misplaced Pages.Dlohcierekim (talk) 03:30, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Agreed, another miracle of Misplaced Pages!203.219.158.105 (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Is Saturday night massacre okay to put in the See also section?

I was tempted to put the Saturday night massacre page into the see also section, but I'm afraid that will be seen as too biased. If this does end up being an attempt by Trump to subvert dissent like Nixon, it would totally be relevant, but we still don't know if it is that yet. So should Saturday night massacre be put in the see also section since it's been compared to this previously or is it too soon to know if the link should be included? --pluma♫ ♯ 06:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

It was originally in "See Also" but somebody pointed out it is already linked in the article so that would be redundant. In answer to your question, though, it is totally appropriate to include it. Regardless of what the judgement of the legal community, political leadership, public, etc. finally is, the fact is that the media is broadly comparing it to the Saturday Night Massacre. One could equal well argue (and many have) that the Saturday Night Massacre was overblown and Nixon was justified. It is not for us to make those judgements (and if you think there will be a consensus on that question anytime soon, you are dreaming). The situations are being compared by the experts so it is appropriate to treat them as similar or related topics. -- MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.34.43 (talk) 06:45, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

The press is making repeated references to this term/event, so by that rule it can be included in the article. However, rather than put it in the "see also" section, I would recommend that you make a note in the body of the article saying that some news outlets are pointing to some possible parallelism with that other historical event, and insert a wikilink to that article. In this way, it does not appear that the article is suggesting there is an objective connection between the two events, but rather that some have pointed to a possible connection. And that is what is notable at this point: that news outlets talk about it, and not that the connection is valid or not. More time will be necessary to come to an agreed-upon determination on that.(talk) user:Al83tito 18:40, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

As I said, this is already being done. Thanks. --MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 18:51, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

I would put it in the "See also" section, as well, due to the fact that the Saturday Night Massacre is being brought up in most nearly every news article-- it's almost as if they're synonymous and inseparable. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 02:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 10 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per WP:SNOW – closing earlier because the article is in the news. No such user (talk) 10:42, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Dismissal of FBI Director James Comey → Dismissal of James Comey – There is no need for "FBI Director" in the title of the article. For example, Dismissals of Sally Yates and Daniel Ragsdale does not need "acting Attorney General" and "ICE Director". Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 19:37, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Survey

• Support: I agree it's unnecessary and out of line with precedent. I would also add that even as the title stands saying "United States Federal Bureau of Investigation" would be better than "FBI" (which, even if famous, is a bit ambiguous). But of course all the same it's unnecessary. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support – Shorter is enough, per WP:CONCISE. — JFG 21:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support - "Dismissal of James Comey" seems most appropriate at this time. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support and keep the previous title as a redirect. Proposed title is more concise.- MrX 22:32, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 23:03, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support. The "FBI Director" disambiguation is not needed, because there isn't another James Comey whose dismissal is notable, nor has this James Comey been notably dismissed from another position. Antony–22 (⁄_contribs) 00:53, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

• Concur —ajf (talk) 02:35, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. This isn't only a US only website. For a worldwide audience, I think you might need FBI Director to help a reader identify the article.Casprings (talk) 02:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • @Casprings: There is no precedent for that, not to mention the fact that the lede explains that he is the Director of the FBI. Examples: Dismissals of Sally Yates and Daniel Ragsdale, Fall of Suharto, Firing of Shirley Sherrod, Resignation of Jehangir Karamat, Resignation of Sarah Palin. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 02:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support per Antony, no extra disambiguation needed. ansh666 05:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

PLEASE CLOSE THIS DISCUSSION: There is already a pending discussion on the name above. -- MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 20:42, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

The previous discussion focuses on choosing between "massacre" and "dismissal". This one offers to choose between a long and a short version of "dismissal", starting from the current title. If the first discussion concludes in favour of "massacre", this one will be moot. Until then, it's fine to keep both open. — JFG 21:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Meh, I closed the RfC, any name can be discussed but it should be limited to a single section, and a move request is better than a RfC. Note to closer - please also consider the previous discussion if the participants don't weigh in here. ansh666 05:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. This RM is the better format. — JFG 07:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead too long?

I've attempted to shorten the lead by moving content into the body: .

Subsequent edits added more content to the lead: .

I consider the lead to be too long for a relatively short article (or any article). Any thoughts on this? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:10, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Agree: this lead is not a lead; it's another version of the full article. Some editors tend to add new developments to the lead and forget the main article body (just like many readers will stop at the lead). Feel free to refactor and summarize. — JFG 07:05, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Something to watch: WAPO reporting that Deputy Attorney General "threatened to resign" after Comey's firing

New reporting by the Washington Post on the Trump administration's "anger and impatience" with Comey before his firing, has been updated regarding the involvement of Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to state the following:

"Rosenstein threatened to resign after the narrative emerging from the White House on Tuesday evening cast him as a prime mover of the decision to fire Comey and that the president acted only on his recommendation, said the person close to the White House, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter."

If this is elaborated on more by other news outlets, and if the story is further built on, it will mark a new turning point regarding Comey's firing. Thanks. WClarke (talk) 04:04, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

I already put this in the article...it appears the info has been duplicated. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:29, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Reason of Dismissal

I have attempted to edit the article stating that the dismissal was to cover-up the Russia scandal, ala Watergate, but it keeps getting reverted. What do you think? Tarkus (talk) 18:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC) Tarkus Rules, Manticore Drools!

Trump literally just admitted he fired Comey because of Russia

Full interview here:http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/pres-trump-s-extended-exclusive-interview-with-lester-holt-at-the-white-house-941854787582

I am sure news stories are coming.Casprings (talk) 23:41, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

New title better linking this to the Russian investigation?

Since both White House Spokesman and Trump have stated this was over Russia, should we change the title somehow to reflect that? If so, how? Casprings (talk) 03:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Content in lead about Trump's claim that he was not under investigation

What's up with this part of the lead?

Trump claimed in the termination letter that Comey had told him "on three separate occasions that I am not under investigation". This statement has been overwhelmingly contested as false, including by 30 officials at the White House, the Justice Department, the FBI and on Capitol Hill, who state that Roger Stone, Rudy Giuliani, Jeff Sessions, Keith Schiller, and other associates of Donald Trump promoted the firing of Comey.

I've been following the news coverage, but I'm unclear from reading this on how Trump's associates promoting Comey's dismissal has anything to do with Trump's statement about being under investigation being false. The two may well be independently correct statements, but joining them like this implies that Trump's associates urged Trump to fire Comey because Trump was under investigation; is that correct/intentional? If it is, it should be stated much more clearly and not left for the reader to draw that conclusion.

As an aside, that third para of the lead feels pretty slanted towards the left to me. Someone more on top of the news than I may want to adjust it a bit to reflect all viewpoints. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Trump put this statement in the dismissal letter, so apparently it was important to him. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:03, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The subject of the first statement is whether or not Trump had been informed by Comey that he was not under investigation. This is followed by the strange claim that "This statement has been overwhelming contested as false ". How exactly can the contents of a private conversation between Donald Trump and James Comey be contested by anyone other than Donald Trump and James Comey?

Then a completely different subject is broached i.e. what prompted the firing of Comey. But what prompted the firing is not relevant to the question of whether or not Comey informed Trump was not under investigation. It appears the editor who added these lines is intentionally conflating these two unrelated issues to create a straw man argument. Even if I agree that the given reasons for firing Comey were not true... that does not 'contest' the claim that Comey informed Trump that he was not under investigation. I don't think there is anyway to interrupt the way this is written other than as a straw man argument.107.0.155.16 (talk) 15:56, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

"This statement" ??? I agree that "The two may well be independently correct statements". 30 sources saying that Comey was fired because of XYZ has nothing to do with whether Comey told Trump on three separate occasions that he (Trump) was not under investigation. I strongly urge the deletion of that entire paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.130.204.49 (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

WoPo May 11, 2017

In a Private Dinner, Trump Demanded Loyalty. Comey Demurred.

Imo worth to mention in the article. --Neun-x (talk) 10:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The NY Times story is not credible: The NY Times claims to have two sources familiar with a private conversations between James Comey and Donald Trump. This claim is simply not plausible. There are only two possible sources... James Comey and Donald Trump. So if one of those two is denying the claims then the NY Times cannot have two sources. Further, if James Comey is their source he is no more credible then Donald Trump because they both have a self-interest at stake. This becomes a he-said, she-said situation; until or unless Donald Trump produces the tapes there is no way to tell whether any claims related to their private conversations are true. 107.0.155.16 (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

It isn't our position to determine if what the NYT is reporting is accurate or not. NYT is considered a reliable source and they're reporting on a newsworthy event. We can position it by "The New York Times reported.." and include the citation. Our articles summarize (as neutral as possible) what is being reported; not what we as editors feel if what a major news network is reporting is accurate or not. RedLinkJ (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

This is significant and should absolutely be mentioned.- MrX 16:56, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

This is why Misplaced Pages is broken. The NYT and Washington Post can print a story that cites anonymous sources, have it refuted by sources on the record, and it is still considered reliable. Take two recent examples:

1. The Washington Post, citing anonymous sources, reported that Judge Napolitano was suspended from Fox News and would not return in the near future. He returned two days later. Yet the Washington Post story, which is demonstrably false, is still considered a reliable source when wikipedia editors want to (falsely) claim that Napolitano was suspended for his comments.

2. The Washington Post reported, citing anonymous sources, that the new DAG was considering quiting over the handling of the Comey firing. The DAG, the only person in a position to know what the DAG was considering, said this is not true. Yet the Washington Post story is considered credible.

This is absurd that a story citing anonymous sources can be considered credible when every person in a position to know the facts denies the story. I reiterate my original position: If the only people present at the dinner were Donald Trump and James Comey then the NYT cannot possibly have two sources for the story unless those sources are Donald Trump and James Comey. If the Misplaced Pages community wants to treat anonymous sources as credible... then this website is no more credible then their sources. You shouldn't confuse what Misplaced Pages editors consider 'credible sources' with what actually is a credible source. Anonymous sources are not credible... even if they are printed in the NYT and WashPo. 107.0.155.16 (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Napolitano did not return "Two days later" - he returned two weeks later. Neutrality 18:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The Washington Post reported on Monday 3/27 that Napolitano would not return to Fox News "in the near future". He returned two days later on Wednesday 3/29. It was two weeks after he first made his claims but it was only two days after the Washington Post (incorrectly) claimed that he he had been suspended would not be returning "in the near future". Unless you want to quibble about the meaning of "near future" my facts are correct. The Washington Post story, citing anonymous sources, is demonstrably false. Yet it is still considered a reliable source per Misplaced Pages and can be (is) used by POV editors as an ad hominem to attack the credibility of Judge Napolitano. I mean, if Fox News suspended him then he must have been lying right? Except that Fox News did not suspend him and the entire stories about his suspension were fabricated by the apparently not-credible Washington Post. 107.0.155.16 (talk) 18:35, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I understand your concerns regarding the reliability of the source, but the talk page for this article isn't the place to go to if you want to affect change in a policy that's working as designed here. I'd recommend visiting the Reliable Source Noticeboard so your voice can be heard and a discussion can take place. RedLinkJ (talk) 18:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Still no conclusive evidence of "muh Russian hackers" conspiracy theory

CitationKneaded (talk) 20:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Tendentious editing

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing

It is my belief that this entire wikipedia page needs to be completely removed and rewritten. It is clear there is no neutral editing going on. There are conclusions already being drawn from unsettled theories, many so called sources are actually from opinion piece articles rather than actually news based on fact. It's clear there is a liberal centric bias written into every corner of this 'Dismissal of James Comey' wiki page.

Here's a prime example: "Trump had asked Comey in January for a pledge of personal loyalty to him alone", which at Today's press briefing (5/12/2017), Sean Spicer was asked a question about that and said it was untrue. There is a LOT of Trump hate in this wiki page in general, and I think there is ZERO room for this type of bias.

This is just one of many issues, and to edit them all would be not only tedious, it would require a near complete rewrite. I think what needs to happen is this wiki page needs to be stripped down to the bare facts of Comey's dismissal, then locked from any editing at all. We don't need conspiracy theories or opinion sources or anyone trying to piece together false conclusions as part of his dismissal record at wikipedia. There is a lot in this article that is just completely unfounded, and frankly, completely unnecessary. They've turned a wiki page of Comey's dismissal into a conspiracy theory attack page hit piece against the president of the United states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hardwarz (talk • contribs) 00:00, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Sorry, but that statement is framed in the following: "According to at least two Comey associates interviewed..." and it's got reliable sources. Besides, Sean Spicer saying something is untrue doesn't therefore make it untrue. That's not hate, that's reflecting what reliable sources say. Drmies (talk) 00:03, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

I personally avoid adding "sources say" text to Misplaced Pages but I'm not opposed to such content on principle so long as it's accurately attributed (which it is: two close sources) and reported by the most reliable and high-quality journalistic outlets (which it is). I'm open to re-wording the text if you have suggestions. I'm also open to removing it from the lede. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:11, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

There are no sources that say that, this was completely made up and posted as news. Unless you can come up with a credible source rather than hearsay, it should be treated as untrue and thus has no place.

Furthermore, there was a section called "reaction from scholars", yet ONLY listed negative reactions. That is inherently not neutral. Just a prime example of the bias inherently present throughout this article.

I assume this article is secure against vandalism?

Hi, I am not a wikipedian so I'm not familiar with the settings for auto-reverts. It seems some section of this article do automatically revert while others do not? (I was able to add in jibberish that stayed when I tested in one section but another user commented that they were not able) I'm just posting this because I worry that the good content assembled here could be cumbersome to manually police against misinformation. Forgive me if this post is naive, I am only trying to be a concerned citizen. Great article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.236.125.65 (talk) 00:04, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

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