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I have read a countless number Misplaced Pages articles and this ones seems to disregard normal layout procedures. Normally, as I see it, when something is criticized negatively, and is up for debate, then that bit of information goes at the end of the article. Usually titled something like "Criticism" or "Reactions" (Which I am aware is in there). However the article states in the first paragraph "Alt-right beliefs have been described as...." and then a laundry list of insults are hurled at the group. NONE of which the group actually identifies with. I'm not saying remove the information, I'm saying since it's subjective and needs to be moved. Keeping it at the beginning makes the statements about the group appear to most readers as "defining". Usually definitions come first and readers read the first paragraph as a synopsis and relate it to definition. Please change this, its essentially falsely advertising the group in |
I have read a countless number Misplaced Pages articles and this ones seems to disregard normal layout procedures. Normally, as I see it, when something is criticized negatively, and is up for debate, then that bit of information goes at the end of the article. Usually titled something like "Criticism" or "Reactions" (Which I am aware is in there). However the article states in the first paragraph "Alt-right beliefs have been described as...." and then a laundry list of insults are hurled at the group. NONE of which the group actually identifies with. I'm not saying remove the information, I'm saying since it's subjective and needs to be moved. Keeping it at the beginning makes the statements about the group appear to most readers as "defining". Usually definitions come first and readers read the first paragraph as a synopsis and relate it to definition. Please change this, its essentially falsely advertising the group in terms they do not associate themselves with. ] (]) 10:07, 15 May 2017 (UTC) |
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Questionable Sources
There are many source issues on this article. Mother Jones, Gizmodo, Kotaku, to name a few WP:QUESTIONABLE. Source 132 is also broken a few names were removed from the list and this fixed the issue. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/silicon-valley-tech-alt-right-racism-misogyny this article is used to cite Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg as being Alt-Right but the article's opinion can not be verified WP:SUBSTANTIATE. Likewise I have qualms about the reliability WP:RS of the twitter post sourced for Tomi Lahren. She's obviously saying they she's accused of of being Alt-Right, not that she is. EDITED DUE TO NEW INFORMATION. Some of my points are mute after the lastest edit, but since there seems to be some Edit Warring going on in this article I'll leave all this up incase it reverts again.HessmixD (talk) 12:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Hyperallergic
I have never heard of this website before. Should this even be used for the article? Just seems to be used as an opinion in its respected section. . GamerPro64 03:42, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've seen it pretty frequently in arts circles, and Hyperallergic does, apparently, have a positive reputation. The quote does seem a bit excessive, but the Pizzagate/Gamergate comparison isn't, by itself, difficult to source (CNN etc.). Grayfell (talk) 03:45, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
- I know Hyperallergic quite well. It is a respected site in the contemporary arts community with a reputation for fact-checking, editorial control, expert contributors, etc. It may look a bit like a blog sometimes, but it is excellent as a resource for arts-related articles. In this specific instance, I think the source is used correctly for saying that the Pizzagate conspiracy theory has drawn comparisons with the Gamergate controversy because Blair Murphy did indeed write that "a more useful comparison might be Gamergate". Mduvekot (talk) 14:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Self-designation
I have issue with the fact that individuals who do not identify as alt-right are categorized as alt-right due to certain media outlets categorizing them as such. Notable individuals like Mike Cernovich, Lauren Southern, Alex Jones, and Paul Joseph Watson who do not identify as alt-right.
There is a distinction to be made chronologically, as well. Immediately after Hillary's "alt-right" speech, there was an "I am Spartacus" moment where many conservatives felt that Hillary was trying to marginalize the populist Right. This is where Southern's tweet reference comes from, for example. However, when Spencer gave his "Hail Trump" speech in December 2016 (complete with Roman salutes), many of these aforementioned "Sparticans" quickly disassociated themselves from the alt-right, either branding themselves as "New Right" or "alt-light". Frankly, the core ideology of the alt-right is white ethnonationalism, and many of these individuals who are categorized as 'alt-right' do not support that ideology. Alt-righters most definitely refer to themselves as such, and a clear distinction should be made in the article for those who are externally categorized as alt-right, rather than by self-identification. — Confession0791 06:13, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- "Roman salutes". PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:34, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- This article certainly doesn't seem to define the political stance of 2 of the people you mentioned, Paul Joseph Watson and Mike cernovich, I don't know enough about the others to comment. Actually shocked at the info of this article, not sure how neutral it is. Matthew Ferguson (talk) 07:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2017
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Hi, Please remove Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg's name from the Notable individuals section, as he clearly stated that he doesn't support alt-right groups or alt-right ideologies. Here is a link to one of his statements : http://pewdie.tumblr.com/post/157160889655/just-to-clear-some-things-up
Thank you Princess Kitten (talk) 05:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi. Would this be a reliable source? http://uk.businessinsider.com/youtube-stars-rally-behind-pewdiepie-anti-semitism-row-wsj-2017-2
(P.S: I somewhat surprised to see that a figure that makes, at best, makes occasional jokes for them but has refused to support them is included when figures like Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and Robert Fisher didn't make the list.) Liberivore (talk) 12:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Notable individuals section
Four of the individuals mentioned in the "Notable Individuals" section (Jonathan Jafari, Stefan Molyneux, Nathan Damigo, and Paul Ray Ramsey) are either far-right conservatives or white supremacists. I couldn't find any sources calling them alt-right, so unless someone else can then I suggest we remove those four individuals.UserDude (talk) 05:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- Have you checked the sources cited next to their names? PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Jonathan Jafari, Stefan Molyneux, Nathan Damigo, and Paul Ray Ramsey, and Andrew Augenhiemer should all be in this section as they are part of the alt right Jkeller4321 (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Additionally pewdiepie edited himself out cause he was embarrassed but he should still be in this section as we are an encyclopedia Jkeller4321 (talk) 18:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg Jonathan Jafari Samuel Hyde Need to be readded as they are clearly associated with the alt right Jkeller4321 (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- Jkeller4321 You are participating in bad faith. It was Luminism who removed Pewdiepie from the list. Furthermore opinion pieces are not a reliable source for ascribing political identity to individuals who reject that identity (as a very modern example, claiming someone is a Nazi does not make them one without evidence). And even further still Kjellberg can not be Alt-Right as this article defines because he does not live in the United States. Related, Stefan Molyneux is a self-professed Libertarian, the two sources list ascribed to him in the section just claim he's Alt-Right without a shred of proof. HessmixD (talk) 21:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
^Then the article needs to change, the idea that the alt-right is a US only movement is just plain wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.18.204.223 (talk) 18:05, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
YouTubers
I don't think opinion pieces qualify as sufficient "evidence" that PewDiePie is alt-right. He has consistently denounced the movement. Perhaps consider removing him (and possible others) from the list? Tannlos (talk) 10:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed, this is ridiculous. Since when are sensational opinion pieces proof of someones political affiliation? The "sources" provided take some jokes out of context to vilify Felix for who knows what reason - more clicks, perhaps? Anyone who actually watches Felix' videos knows he's not "Alt-right" and actually denounces the movement. JaroV (talk) 11:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Agree plus sources
Agree, Felix Kjellburg is not alt-right, in fact I have looked through all of the 'sources' that were referenced next to his name and they do not even come close to providing evidence:
Reference 121:
Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg, whose "Pewdiepie" YouTube channel featuring Nazi-themed jokes has 54 million subscribers. (Last month Kjellberg apologized for the jokes and said he is not a Nazi.)
A poor taste joke, that they apologised for, does not make someone an alt-right figure.
Reference 122/123: This reference is cited next to Felix's name but has nothing to do with him.
Reference 124: This reference lumps PewDiePie in with JonTron and speaks about what was mentioned in Reference 121. It does not provide any evidence that PewDiePie is an alt-right figure or holds any alt-right views.
Finally, since two of these references speak about a certain event, here is PewDiePie's apology that was written about these jokes before the news wrote about it
And in his response afterwards he apologises and says he is a "rookie comedian" and that these jokes were mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evales (talk • contribs) 11:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
--Evales (talk) 11:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
References
- http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/silicon-valley-tech-alt-right-racism-misogyny
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/08/22/the-race-realist-theory-of-how-trump-can-win-explained/
- http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263988/some-observations-man-who-created-alt-right-paul-gottfried
- http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/youtube-jontron-controversy-1.4050032
- http://pewdie.tumblr.com/post/157160889655/just-to-clear-some-things-up
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwk1DogcPmU
False accusation of Alt-Right Members
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Hello I would like you to remove these individuals from the 'notable alt-right members': Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg Jonathan Jafari Samuel Hyde
None of these individuals are alt-right members. The fact these individuals were added to the list counts as defamation, and it is disgusting behaviour that they are still on this list.
Here is some evidence that they aren't alt-right members: https://twitter.com/pewdiepie/status/857186633044701184 TheCasualJJ (talk) 11:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hey man, I agree with you, I've made a section for it just above yours - but that's not evidence. It might even delegitimise your case. Tannlos (talk) 11:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that for all people mentioned in the list clear and unequivocal "membership" must be documented by reliable sources for them to be included (see WP:BLP). The one example I focused on (PewDiePie) had at least two sources failing this completely, that is, they did not claim PDP is part of the AltRight. This is in clear breach of WP:BLP since "AltRight membership" is contentious to say the least. I am tempted to request full protection of this page (and a report to WP:BLP/N) since the edit-war seems to be continued. Please knock it off and discuss the issue here. Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 11:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I would suggest WP:XCON should be enough based on those making the edits. — IVORK Discuss 11:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- We cannot state that individuals are part of the movement without impeccable sourcing. That mean multiple reliable sources (or verifiable self identification).. An example that fails this is Curtis Yarvin sourced to The Verge. This list need to be severely culled. Misplaced Pages is not a platform for gratuitous shaming.- MrX 12:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC) .
- At this moment I would recommend either removing Peter Brimelow and Kevin MacDonald from list or expanding their sources. Currently, the only single source for their alt-rightness is a photograph caption refering to them as "alt-right supporters". Andrew Anglin on the other hand is a self-declared Neo-nazi rather than alt-right, so I don't think he belongs on the list. And as mentioned, declaring Curtis Yarvin as alt-right based solely on the current source is dubious at best.Jariola (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to start removing entries from the list. If anyone objects, they can explain their reasoning here.- MrX 21:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I have removed a few of these, including Roosh V based on this .- MrX 22:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't think Roosh V's denouncement of alt-right was believeable, as he has since defended alt-right despite them having a "blind spot" with their "obsession with race", as per . Jariola (talk) 22:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- My reading is that he shares some of their ideas, and this stood out: "Their need for sexual control went against the interests of myself and my readers of all races, since it’s not dissimilar to feminism, so I announced a formal split with them in February, even though I was never formally in the alt right." If we are going to list him as a member of the alt-right in Misplaced Pages's voice, I think we need at least a few strong sources that say that. New York Magazine is insufficient by itself.- MrX 23:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't think Roosh V's denouncement of alt-right was believeable, as he has since defended alt-right despite them having a "blind spot" with their "obsession with race", as per . Jariola (talk) 22:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I have removed a few of these, including Roosh V based on this .- MrX 22:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to start removing entries from the list. If anyone objects, they can explain their reasoning here.- MrX 21:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- At this moment I would recommend either removing Peter Brimelow and Kevin MacDonald from list or expanding their sources. Currently, the only single source for their alt-rightness is a photograph caption refering to them as "alt-right supporters". Andrew Anglin on the other hand is a self-declared Neo-nazi rather than alt-right, so I don't think he belongs on the list. And as mentioned, declaring Curtis Yarvin as alt-right based solely on the current source is dubious at best.Jariola (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- We cannot state that individuals are part of the movement without impeccable sourcing. That mean multiple reliable sources (or verifiable self identification).. An example that fails this is Curtis Yarvin sourced to The Verge. This list need to be severely culled. Misplaced Pages is not a platform for gratuitous shaming.- MrX 12:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC) .
- I would suggest WP:XCON should be enough based on those making the edits. — IVORK Discuss 11:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that for all people mentioned in the list clear and unequivocal "membership" must be documented by reliable sources for them to be included (see WP:BLP). The one example I focused on (PewDiePie) had at least two sources failing this completely, that is, they did not claim PDP is part of the AltRight. This is in clear breach of WP:BLP since "AltRight membership" is contentious to say the least. I am tempted to request full protection of this page (and a report to WP:BLP/N) since the edit-war seems to be continued. Please knock it off and discuss the issue here. Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 11:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
False accusations - again
PJW and Molyneux are not alt-right. The sources linked provide zero proof that they are. Neither have come out saying they are alt-right, so this article is false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.249.38 (talk) 14:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've never heard either identify as such either. However PJW is associated with the crackpots on infowars, so not sure how you would define them. Matthew Ferguson (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
MRA link?
what exactly is the link given there? It seems like someone is just using this article to lump "everything I dont like" together. It's unencyclopedic and damaging to the reputation of Misplaced Pages. Noone wants another Ryulong. Also, does anyone have information on the size of this movement?
I came to this page for information, and frankly, it's a very poor effort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.184.124 (talk) 23:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- The men's rights link to the alt-right is sourced to this article. I have to wonder how many people who come to this talk page actually follow the sources before complaining about something. clpo13(talk) 20:32, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Can we remove the 'notable individuals' section?
There was a time when the article Chain Smokking had a burgeoning list of people who chain smoked, and it was removed because in essence it's just trivia being tacked on. I simply don't think that a 'notable individuals' section is really necessary. It is not possible to precisely qualify who and who isn't alt-right, even with the (pretty contentious) criteria given in the section. Evidently this section has caused quite a bit of, what I think is needless, kerfuffle on this talk page. Derick1259 (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, maybe so. The individuals' articles have more room to explain any link, and also explain when the link was made. Listing people who fully embrace the label, like Spencer, with the same weight as people who formerly embraced it and then backed off, like Cernovich, seems like a big problem. John Derbyshire's article doesn't even mention the alt-right at all, which is a bad sign. These sources are messy as well, with some redundant, trivial, and questionable sources being mixed in with more reliable stuff. That's not, by itself, a reason to remove the section, but it's a bad sign. Grayfell (talk) 20:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- There are bad signs showing in this section indeed, and the problem is I don't think a lot can be done to clean up this section from the issues you point out. Derick1259 (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- I think that the driving members of a political movement are more important than who has chain-smoked - to the extent that they define the alt-right, it's important to cover them. However, more caution could be used when mentioning people to make sure they're really important to understanding the alt-right rather than just being people who had the label attached to them at one point or another; and I would tend to prefer putting a description of those key individuals in prose rather than a list, which would also allow us to provide a bit of context for each (and would discourage people from just drive-by dropping random people who aren't as important into it.) The important criteria for inclusion should be whether or not they are useful to understanding the alt-right (that is, do we have lots of high-quality sources that focus on these people as the iconic representation of the alt-right.) For people who do, we could include them even if they later denounced or discarded the label, provided we're careful to mention that - again, another advantage to covering them in prose rather than as a list is that we can provide that context for eg. people who haven't consistently considered themselves a part of it but who are regularly covered as iconic parts of it in reliable sources. --Aquillion (talk) 23:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- This is why I propose that a clear distinction be made in the article between those that self-identify as alt-right, and those who are described as alt-right by others. This term is comparable to "Nazi" in many people's minds, so this is a serious BLP issue. — Confession0791 00:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
- That is indeed the trouble with having a section that declares someone as 'alt-right', there is little room for any caveats or ambiguity for individuals. Derick1259 (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- This is why I propose that a clear distinction be made in the article between those that self-identify as alt-right, and those who are described as alt-right by others. This term is comparable to "Nazi" in many people's minds, so this is a serious BLP issue. — Confession0791 00:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
- My impression is that, for the most part, alt-right is something one is called rather than something one calls oneself—much like essentialist and social constructionist in the history of sexuality debate, to the extent there still is one. (Was that reference too obscure?) So I don't see self-identification as a useful criterion in that its absence doesn't really tell us anything about reality. With regard to my limited understanding of the matter, it seems designation by reliable sources is the key consideration. Antinoos69 (talk) 12:03, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
- We should. It seems like an accusation board, most of them have denied these affiliations. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 17:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- Indeed. Those who discover they are unfairly on this list are prone to spin up drama, perhaps accompanies by an influx of edits and vandalisation. Derick1259 (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- We should. It seems like an accusation board, most of them have denied these affiliations. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 17:02, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- It should be removed. The membership is not clearly defined and list provides no value. If someone is important to the alt-right, then they should be mentioned in the article, making the list superfluous. TFD (talk) 19:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- I concur with this. Anyone who is really that notable to be mentioned in this this article would be mentioned inline with the prose sections. Derick1259 (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
IQ chart in beliefs section
Seems like the blatant insertion of the chart simply to spread the idea rather than make a claim about alt-right beliefs. Does no one else agree?--Wimdow2011 (talk) 02:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Wimdow2011: Well, I won't speculate on the intent behind adding it, but it was added a little over 24 hours ago by PerfectlyIrrational (talk · contribs) (diff). I didn't investigate the sourcing claimed on the image page, or accuracy of the data in it, so I have no idea how neutral the data itself is. On the other hand, it did not seem to obviously tie into or support the adjacent text, at least not clearly. On the basis that the illustrations should have some reasonable relationship to the adjacent text, I've reverted it. I have added a smaller size of it to this talk section, so that we can easily see what we are discussing. Murph9000 (talk) 03:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed, the chart seemed rather gratuitously inflammatory. Antinoos69 (talk) 12:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- Not that it belongs here at all, but I see the source data here, just a table of averages and SD p.118, original uploader has image here Talk:Race_and_intelligence/Archive_87#Variance_table. And it was rejected there. Myself, I'd be more interested in showing actual distributions of male and female IQ, and we'd see there are more male idiots than female, and we might guess where some of the (mostly-male) alt-righters fit on the distribution. Tom Ruen (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- Creator of the edit here. The purpose of the image was to show the belief among members of the alt-right that non-Western immigration is harmful. Perhaps someone can add that the causes are disputed? PerfectlyIrrational (talk) 15:56, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- The issue is that we don't have any reliable sources showing that it it related. I know that people like Spencer and Enoch do talk about the bell curve often, but without other people commenting on it we really can't put that in. If you could find, for example, newspaper or online news articles discussing how it was an important part of alt-right philosophy, that would be a different story. Even if you have something from Radix or altright.com written by Spencer, that might be allowable as the self-published opinion of an important person to the topic (no guarantees, though). The Wordsmith 16:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- The graph is based on a table in an academic book. Lots of reasons to exclude it. One of them is that we do not know what the distribution is. It is doubtful that 5% of blacks have IQs below 55 and none have IQs above 135. TFD (talk) 16:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- The issue is that we don't have any reliable sources showing that it it related. I know that people like Spencer and Enoch do talk about the bell curve often, but without other people commenting on it we really can't put that in. If you could find, for example, newspaper or online news articles discussing how it was an important part of alt-right philosophy, that would be a different story. Even if you have something from Radix or altright.com written by Spencer, that might be allowable as the self-published opinion of an important person to the topic (no guarantees, though). The Wordsmith 16:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Excessive references
This article seems to contain a large amount of citation overkill. For instance, to support Commonalities among the loosely-defined alt-right include a disdain for mainstream politics as well as support for Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign
there were nothing less than seven refs, including one from "SocialistWorker.org" mixed in with The Washington Post and The LA Times. I have addressed some of the issues, but the article may still be problematic and I don't have the time to read all the references to see what can and cannot be removed. I invite other editors to help with the clean up. PS: I'm not watching the page, please ping me for my attention. Saturnalia0 (talk) 03:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- Without commenting on the reliability of the removed sources, that does look a bit better. If any of these points become contested again, bundling multiple citations into a single ref tag might be worth considering. Grayfell (talk) 06:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Websites and the Use of Memes
Generalizing 4chan or any other websites as alt-right is not correct as the user base is extreamly varied. Also, the majority of memes atributed to white supremacy are simply examples of black humor. Some may have been ulterioly adopted by the Alt-Right but the matter should be studied more from the perspective of non left outlets. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rational Guy (talk • contribs) 20:28, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- The article does not make that generalization. The article doesn't say that 4chan is alt-right, it says that the alt-right came from 4chan. As for "black humor" if you have any reliable sources on that, let's see them. The article explains that it's difficult to determine how sincere these memes are. Reliable sources I've seen commonly regard 4chan's "ironic racism" as a tool used by extremists to normalize racist ideas by making them more palatable to people who would otherwise reject overt racism ("red-pilling normies", etc.). Describing supremacist memes as black humor doesn't make them any more or less racist. Wherever they originally came from, sincere or not, they promote white supremacist ideas. Grayfell (talk) 21:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Is a "memes" section really necessary?
The section about Alt-Right Memes seems totally irrelevant, why is it even here? Holden3172 (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)Hold3172
- It's here because it's supported by many reliable sources which explain why it's relevant. Grayfell (talk) 21:39, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Header rediculousness
Boldly closing this unconscionable house carcass abuse. To be generous, this is a rehash of a compassion lodged by the same editor back in January (Talk:Alt-right/Archive_10#Non-neutral_point_of_view) with nothing new to add. IDHT/STICK/POINT issues abound. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:13, 15 May 2017 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loose group of people with right-wing to far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism, principally in the United States, but also to a lesser degree in Canada and Europe. White supremacist Richard Spencer appropriated the term in 2010 to define a movement centered on white nationalism, and has been accused by some media publications of doing so to whitewash overt racism, white supremacism, and neo-Nazism. Alt-right beliefs have been described as white supremacist, frequently overlapping with antisemitism and Neo-Nazism, nativism and Islamophobia, antifeminism and homophobia, white nationalism, right-wing populism, and the neoreactionary movement. The concept has further been associated with multiple groups from American nationalists, neo-monarchists, men's rights advocates, and the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump.
Okay so how much money did Buzzfeed pay you guys to destroy the header with sources? Come on, isn't it a basic Misplaced Pages rule that you put the sources in the content, and the header summarizes the content? Call me a conspiracy theorist but you guys seem rather obsessed with this article, kinda seems like your protecting something for your own agenda. It kinda like seems like you guys are trying to make sure no one right-leaning can edit the header (hence the ridiculous amount of sources). I mean it's pretty reasonable assumption.
So here's the thing I'm NOT alt-right or conservative (or whatever ridiculous generalization you guys probably think I am), but I know BS when I see it. And this is it. I know this may be mind-blowing for you guys but here it goes - you can listen to what a conservative group has to say with an open mind, disagree with them politically, and still value their point as a genuine political view. You can write about what they believe and be true to the source. You don't have to fight it because you disagree. I feel like nothing in this article has been written without the editor's own personal bias or two cents thrown in. ++ 06:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Call me a conspiracy theoriest
... Yes, agreed. You're literally theorizing a conspiracy, based on no real evidence. Did you have something productive to say, or are you just here to condescend and cast aspersions? If so, WP:NOTFORUM and WP:PERSONAL applies. Grayfell (talk) 07:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, QubixQdotta, the lead can have as many sources as necessary to verify contentious content. See WP:LEADCITE. clpo13(talk) 07:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
- I can easily say the lead section is biased, as it is using liberal media as sources. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 00:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
- Sources in the lead include the New York Times, BBC News, the Washington Post, Associated Press, NBC News, CNN, Reuters, NPR, the LA Times, The Guardian, and the Boston Globe. In fact, everything in the lead is cited to at least one of those. As far as I know, those are top-quality mainstream sources. Which of them do you object to? What sources do you feel we should use instead? --Aquillion (talk) 21:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- I had marked some of the Vox and Salon sources as being unreliable, as they are heavily liberal biased, but Greyfall has reverted my edits. LightningScout Samræða 23:53, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- Reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. See WP:BIASED Mduvekot (talk) 00:41, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
- I had marked some of the Vox and Salon sources as being unreliable, as they are heavily liberal biased, but Greyfall has reverted my edits. LightningScout Samræða 23:53, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- Sources in the lead include the New York Times, BBC News, the Washington Post, Associated Press, NBC News, CNN, Reuters, NPR, the LA Times, The Guardian, and the Boston Globe. In fact, everything in the lead is cited to at least one of those. As far as I know, those are top-quality mainstream sources. Which of them do you object to? What sources do you feel we should use instead? --Aquillion (talk) 21:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- I can easily say the lead section is biased, as it is using liberal media as sources. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 00:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
The Beginning of the article
I have read a countless number Misplaced Pages articles and this ones seems to disregard normal layout procedures. Normally, as I see it, when something is criticized negatively, and is up for debate, then that bit of information goes at the end of the article. Usually titled something like "Criticism" or "Reactions" (Which I am aware is in there). However the article states in the first paragraph "Alt-right beliefs have been described as...." and then a laundry list of insults are hurled at the group. NONE of which the group actually identifies with. I'm not saying remove the information, I'm saying since it's subjective and needs to be moved. Keeping it at the beginning makes the statements about the group appear to most readers as "defining". Usually definitions come first and readers read the first paragraph as a synopsis and relate it to definition. Please change this, its essentially falsely advertising the group in terms they do not associate themselves with. PayneAckerson (talk) 10:07, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
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