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Revision as of 19:05, 16 May 2017 editMr Ernie (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,335 edits →New report about private investigator hired by Rich family: refactor← Previous edit Revision as of 19:10, 16 May 2017 edit undoAnythingyouwant (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors91,258 edits →New report about private investigator hired by Rich family: new newsNext edit →
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::Alright, I can see the importance of this. But given the serious BLP issues in play, the precise wording is crucial. I suggest that before adding anything to the article editors make proposals here. And make sure they accurately reflect the sources.] (]) 18:59, 16 May 2017 (UTC) ::Alright, I can see the importance of this. But given the serious BLP issues in play, the precise wording is crucial. I suggest that before adding anything to the article editors make proposals here. And make sure they accurately reflect the sources.] (]) 18:59, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
::But just for the record, Fox 5 DC and Fox News are not reliable here. Indeed, as far as this story goes, they are ] since the other ] sources are describing their fuck up (whether that was publishing the story in the first place or getting caught in a lie)] (]) 19:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC) ::But just for the record, Fox 5 DC and Fox News are not reliable here. Indeed, as far as this story goes, they are ] since the other ] sources are describing their fuck up (whether that was publishing the story in the first place or getting caught in a lie)] (]) 19:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
This new article appears credible and detailed: .] (]) 19:10, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

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Whistleblower source claimed by Guccifer 2.0

I suggest to add the following section about Guccifer 2.0's claimed source being Seth Rich 

On August 25, 2016 hacker(s) Guccifer 2.0 claimed that murdered Democratic National Committee (DNC) staff Seth Rich “was my whistleblower”. Rich was a data analyst staff with the DNC. The month before, Rich was killed in Washington DC on July 10, 2016 with multiple gun shots.

References

  1. Murdock, Jason (2017-04-10). "Guccifer 2.0 private chat with ex-Playboy model fuels conspiracies over source of DNC leak". International Business Times UK. Retrieved 2017-05-01. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  2. Allen, Nick (2017-08-10). "WikiLeaks offers $20,000 reward over murder of Democrat staffer Seth Rich". The Telegraph. Retrieved 2017-05-01. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

Francewhoa (talk) 02:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

Hi @SPECIFICO:) About your 2017-04-30T18:58:46‎ edit, before removing a significant amount of content with reputable source, are you interested to join the discussion on the talk page to expend on your "Not RS" concern? Francewhoa (talk) 02:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi @Rms125a@hotmail.com:) Thanks for your contribution to this article section. You're welcome to join this discussion as well.
The last time we discussed this, it was WP:PROFRINGE as well as offensive to Rich's family, in that it claimed that he stole from his employer. It's also considered completely baseless by an overwhelming number of reliable sources. Geogene (talk) 03:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
It's not a reputable source. It's a marginal and erratic source and not appropriate for this content. The content is UNDUE and somewhat of a smear on a recently deceased victim of a crime. SPECIFICO talk 03:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
@Francewhoa: It's pointless for you to edit-war your content back into the article after it's been challenged by reversion. I suggest you undo your reinsertion. The WP:BURDEN is on you to gain consensus for inclusion in the article. SPECIFICO talk 03:31, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The only purpose of the mentioned comment seems to be to lend credence to Guccifer's claims, especially by connecting Rich's job to the hacked emails. Gravity 06:18, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The International Business Times is certainly a reliable source. I think you may not appreciate the distinction between a claim made in a reliable source and a claim reported in a reliable source. If a claim is made in a reliable source then we report it as a fact with inline citation; if it is reported in a reliable source we report it as an opinion with intext citation. TFD (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
The, certainly RSN does not agree with you. Anyway if this is DUE WEIGHT, it would be helpful if you could suggest 2-3 other sources for the proposed content. SPECIFICO talk 16:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The following sentence is very vague and it fails to describe what are the alleged "conspiracy theories" about, and falsely frames them as "right-wing", so (keeping the same source) please change this:

Conspiracy theories

Newsweek reported that the murder stoked right-wing "Clinton conspiracy theories" and that Rich's parents were "distressed" by the politicization of his murder.

to this:

Conspiracy theories

Newsweek reported that the murder fired up "Clinton conspiracy theories" claiming that Rich was murdered due to his alleged implication in the leak of internal DNC emails and that Rich's parents were "distressed" by the politicization of his murder. Alfombra2013 (talk) 11:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Decline We've discussed this extensively, to the point it's not particularly helpful to continue to revisit the issue. Suffice to say that the source made it clear that the conspiracy theories are right-wing; the allegations themselves are so absurd that including them would be WP:PROFRINGE, that this proposal doesn't thoroughly debunk them the way that would be required for a neutral article, and that any effort to do so in an article of this size would result in a WP:COATRACK. Geogene (talk) 21:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment The editor's confusion is understandable. We don't explain why it stoked right-wing conspiracy theories (in particular) or how they were related to Clinton. This is a disservice to the reader. It should be summarized and the dozen words suggested seem appropriate. I'm not aware of any articles where we refer to a conspiracy theory without ever describing it. To TFD's point, we can describe the theory without endorsing it. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 04:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
What is being proposed is to mention the conspiracy theory in passing and leave it at that, as if it were something that a reasonable person might believe, and that is not neutral and therefore is not an option here. Geogene (talk) 20:11, 5 May 2017 (UTC
As long as we continue to describe it as a conspiracy theory we are not suggesting it's something a "reasonable person might believe." What's being proposed is to treat this conspiracy theory the way we treat all other conspiracy theories. I'm having difficulty understanding your objection. Can you explain why you believe this article should be a special case? James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:48, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Please don't put straw men in Geogene's mouth. Please demonstrate widespread RS discussion of the details of this alleged conspiracy theory. From RS reporting, it can't really be dignified with the tag "theory" -- more like a calculated insinuation. SPECIFICO talk 21:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: Re: Please demonstrate widespread RS discussion of the details of this alleged conspiracy theory. We can start with the existing Newsweek source:
  • And that was enough to fire up the right-wing Twitterverse with yet another round of Clinton conspiracy theories, this one claiming that Rich was murdered—at dawn—as he was on his way to sing to the FBI about damning internal DNC emails.
and Washington Post
  • the allegations getting more and more far-fetched: Seth was ordered killed by Hillary Clinton because he knew something about her email scandal.
and NY Daily News
  • Assange suggested this week, without evidence, that Rich played a role in leaking emails that showed DNC officials disparaging the presidential campaign of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders
and Newsweek again
  • conspiracy theorists later suggested DNC officials were behind it and that Rich played a role in leaking party emails.
and Financial Times
  • Another claimed that the Clinton campaign had assassinated Seth Rich, a Democratic National Committee employee, as revenge for supposedly leaking DNC emails to WikiLeaks
Every article I found describes it and dismisses it as a conspiracy theory, which is what the edit request suggests we do. Do you have other objections? James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 21:43, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
OK, so what text would you propose based on these -- keep in mind that we can't offer our own interpretation or synthesis about the list. What you're showing is very different than what the SPA requested. SPECIFICO talk 22:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Here are the excerpts from the quotes above, in order:
  1. claiming that Rich was murdered ... on his way to sing to the FBI about damning internal DNC emails
  2. killed by Hillary Clinton because he knew something about her email scandal
  3. Rich played a role in leaking emails that showed DNC officials disparaging the presidential campaign of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders
  4. suggested DNC officials were behind it and that Rich played a role in leaking party emails.
  5. as revenge for supposedly leaking DNC emails to WikiLeaks
Here is the proposed addition:
  • that Rich was murdered due to his alleged implication in the leak of internal DNC emails
It's difficult to think of a way to phrase it that could be more similar to the quotes. Perhaps change "alleged implication" with "alleged role"? What would you suggest? James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 23:18, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose for reasons given above. Again: The sources all treat this disparagingly. This should too, or else it should stay out. Words like "alleged" and "claim" are inadequate in this case. Some quotes from the Newsweek article to show what I mean
  1. a wild election-year conspiracy theory that once again portrays Hillary Clinton and the Democrats as murderous criminals
  2. And that was enough to fire up the right-wing Twitterverse with yet another round of Clinton conspiracy theories, this one claiming that Rich was murdered—at dawn—as he was on his way to sing to the FBI about damning internal DNC emails
  3. What are you suggesting?” a startled interviewer from Dutch television asked him.
  4. Right-wing media outlets continued to churn up sludge from the tragedy.
Just saying deadpan that right wing conspiracy theorists "alleged" this stuff isn't doing it justice. Geogene (talk) 23:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree that proposed edit is not how one would refer to nonsense. It's more like mentioning the underground colony of Martians allegedly living undetected beneath Mar a Lago. SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Your responses contain no meaningful objections.
@Geogene: The conspiracy theory is already described as a conspiracy theory. Preserving that and adding "alleged" does not enhance the credibility of the claim. If it's not clear why, WP:CIR.
@SPECIFICO: I asked you a direct question in response to your comment. Rather than respond directly you ramble about martians. The talk page of a contentious article is no place for that.
I will give others time to respond then proceed with the requested edit (with some minor copy edits) barring new and reasonably articulated objections. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 03:46, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
You do that without consensus, I'll file an AE on you for edit warring. We've discussed, as in WP:BRD.Geogene (talk) 03:50, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Uninvolved editors dismissed these same arguments from you and Specifico in two of two RfCs (1, 2.) We can go for three of three if necessary but it would be a shame if you choose once again to waste community time. Either way the text will be included because it makes sense to include, in the most basic sense. As I said, I will give others time to respond. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 04:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
No, they didn't. This is the longstanding version of the article, and if you want to change it, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate those changes. You have failed to do that. I'd rather not have to seek sanctions on you, but if you try to edit war this on over my objections, that's what will have to be done. And yes, I agree that there are CIR issues at play in this discussion. Geogene (talk) 04:20, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The policy |"Due and undue weight" and the guideline of "Fringe theories" both require that we provide the same relative level of coverage to the fringe stories as does the media. I am willing to compromise and provide less. The only proviso is that we do not present them as having more acceptance then they actually do. We should also mention the Russia connection allegations, which is an extension of the theory that they hacked into the DNC servers. TFD (talk) 04:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I think "alleged role" is good wording for briefly describe the conspiracy theories. I don't think we need to include the version spread by Jack Burkman since it doesn't appear to have taken off in conspiracy circles, at least from what I can tell from the sources. Overall, the sources reporting on the conspiracies discuss the DNC emails. Gravity 06:33, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories are not the same thing as allegations. Fakes news is not an allegation. See the article about the alleged moon landing. There has been no coverage of these fake news theories as 'allegations'. SPECIFICO talk 11:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm reading the article you mentioned and there's a section titled "Alleged Stanley Kubrick involvement". It appears that "alleged" is used to describe one facet of this conspiracy theory regarding Kubrick's involvement. I think the word "alleged" is appropriate here per WP:ALLEGED, or maybe even "claim". Gravity 16:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
"Alleged" is the same word being used to describe Russian interference in the presidential election. Do you think that that "allegation" and this "allegation" are on equal footing? I do not. Geogene (talk) 14:12, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:ALLEGED: alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined. In this case, Seth Rich's wrongdoing has been asserted, but whether he had any role in DNC email leak is highly unlikely at best. Whether or not Russian interference has been determined conclusively is beyond the scope of this article and is still under heavy discussion. I believe some allegations can be true while other allegations can be false, and that trying to conflate similar words in these articles is false equivalence. Gravity 16:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
@FallingGravity: Really, the words "Seth Rich's wrongdoing" should not appear anywhere on this website. I don't care what you're trying to say -- there's an much more appropriate way to say it. SPECIFICO talk 22:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Because Rich's involvement is not "undetermined" but absurd, "alleged" is not appropriate here. Geogene (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not proposing adding the words "Seth Rich's wrongdoing," and I'm not sure how the adjective "absurd" can be added in Misplaced Pages's voice. Gravity 00:58, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
You should not use those words on the talk page or anywhere else on WP. Thx. SPECIFICO talk 01:40, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not using those word, I'm quoting you. Gravity 01:50, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Allegations can be reasonable or unreasonable, true or false, just as accusations, statements, beliefs, assumptions, assertions and theories can be. No one confuses the theory of gravity with a conspiracy theory, because they are both theories. By calling them "conspiracy theories," the assumption is they are unreasonable and false. Conspiracy theories are of course always wrong and always unreasonable. The National Enquirer ran a story Apr. 19 claiming Russian involvement in this case. It fits in with theories that the Russians hacked into the DNC and that they have political enemies killed. If more reputable media report on it, then we should include it. TFD (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Addition of something like "baseless" or "far-fetched", in accordance with some of the source quotes given above, would address many of my concerns. Geogene (talk) 18:42, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
As long as the sentence that alleges his involvement describes that allegation as a conspiracy theory (as is proposed) further qualification is unnecessary and discouraged by policy. With the recent comments by TFD and FallingGravity we have a reasonable consensus for inclusion. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 19:47, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
The current article is unsatisfactory in its omission of factual, notable, and well sourced details. Rich's murder may have been a "botched robbery", however it is OK to tell people that Rich is known to have been in contact with Wikileaks before he died, and that valuable items on Rich's person were not removed after he was shot. Some editors seem oddly adamant that readers should not be exposed to information that may lead them to conclusions other than the editors evidently want them to believe. What's wrong with "just the facts, ma'am" here? Wookian (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Revised Text (proposal)

  • Rich's murder prompted conspiracy theories alleging he was involved in the 2016 leak of DNC internal emails. His parents said they were distressed by the politicization of his murder.
I removed the mention of Clinton and split the text into two sentences. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference newsweek was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. http://www.newsweek.com/gop-lobbyist-reward-seth-rich-dnc-499653
  3. https://www.ft.com/content/cc311e58-264f-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16
  4. http://www.newsweek.com/seth-rich-murder-dnc-hack-julian-assange-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-492084

Survey

Support As nominator. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Oppose POV push. Sources go much further than simply calling it a conspiracy theory. Examples are posted in the thread above. Removal of sourced "right-wing" designation in this proposal is also problematic. Geogene (talk) 20:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I debated including "right-wing" but after reviewing the sources I found the majority did not describe it as right-wing. Have you found otherwise? It seems reasonable that some on the left (particularly fringe Sanders supporters) might also be inclined to believe the conspiracy theory. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
, , , , , , . Some of those are better than others, and some may not even be reliable, but let's not pretend it's not the far right (most say "alt-right") that's pushing this stuff. It's the same old Clinton Body Count meme that has been running amok for decades. Geogene (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
When I surveyed sources for "right-wing" I surveyed only RS: sources that would be usable for statements fact or attributed opinion. If your comparison involves non-RS (as above) I don't think we can reach an agreement. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Obviously, I don't need a majority of reliable sources for this, just one. The existing Newsweek article is fine for that. The others I referred to are there to show it isn't just Newsweek that calls it that. I can't rationalize your removing "right wing" from the proposal, and my supply of good faith is just about out. This will reflect poorly on you in any behavioral reviews later. Geogene (talk) 02:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I have posted a summary and link to this discussion at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard . Geogene (talk) 20:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

  • Support although I would ask Geogene to explain their objection. "Right-wing conspiracy theory" is a redundancy and I don't see how something can be further than a conspiracy theory. I note though the reference to the Clinton Body Count and suggest we include a link to it. TFD (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm confused by your question. Do you consider conspiracy theory, right-wing conspiracy theory, and far-fetched conspiracy theory to be equivalent in meaning? I don't. I'm not opposed to linking to the Clinton Body Count article though. Geogene (talk) 21:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
All conspiracy theories are far-fetched by definition. They describe things that could not possibly be true, otherwise it would be reasonable speculation. And while they can get traction beyond the extreme right, conspiracy theories originate with them. They see the problems of the world as caused by secret manipulation between the elites, foreigners and minorities. TFD (talk) 04:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Not all conspiracy theories are equally far-fetched. There are some casual ones that many otherwise reasonable people believe in, such as the ones around the John F. Kennedy assassination and some light claimed UFO sightings. There are some that are less socially acceptable but whose adherents can still function in society, like the 9/11 "truthers" and some hard UFO theorists. And then there are the ones that are so out there that their only adherents are people that live in survivalist compounds in the wilderness. It's not a compliment to tell someone that their ideas constitute a "conspiracy theory", but not all conspiracy theories are equally implausible. I don't believe in any of the JFK conspiracy theories, but I recognize that there is a world of difference in the claim that a president was assassinated by the CIA, and the claim (for example) the world is secretly governed by aliens. In other words, to simply claim that two statements are probably false does not make the statements equally ridiculous. This particular conspiracy theory has been described as baseless and far fetched by the sources, my reading of the Neutrality policy is that the article should convey that. Geogene (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
If you stop to evaluate the evidence, the idea that Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA is vastly more far-fetched than this one. First of all, one has to ignore the mountains of evidence that Oswald killed Kennedy. Contrast that with the murder of Seth Rich which is unsolved. Second, one has to accept with the CIA theory that vasts numbers of people were involved in killing the President of the United States in plain view of hundreds of other people... and that they successfully managed to hide their tracks. You don't have to believe that craziness with this one. It only gets crazy when you put it in the context of people who actually believe the Clinton Body Count. -Location (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
This conspiracy theory is more far-fetched than the murder alone-which is really only constrained by Occam's Razor-it also deals with the supposed motivation. It claims that Seth Rich was, or was indistinguishable from, Advanced Persistent Threat 28. That in addition to his job at the DNC, which by all accounts he was proud of, and which appears to have had nothing to do with IT security, he was trying to hack their servers by sending about 20,000-30,000 spearphishing emails a day, along with multiple zero day exploits of the commercial software they were using. But mainly he would have been doing all this between 9 AM and 5 PM Moscow time, of course. This insinuation plays on the 400-pound-hacker theory, that the hacking of the DNC was something that anybody with a computer science background and a grudge could have pulled off. That's a narrative that Trump has historically pushed, and which is apparently believed by the alt-right, but it's not at all consistent with sources. Geogene (talk) 17:22, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
In one theory, you are expected to believe the claims AND ignore mountains of evidence. In the other, you are only expected to believe the claims. In the end, none of this matters as we are quibbling over degrees of far-fetchedness. -Location (talk) 20:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't think this is "far-fetched," "could not possibly be true" and is beyond "reasonable speculation". Julian Assange / Wikileaks comes pretty close to saying he got the DNC emails from an insider, that they were leaked. Seth was certainly capable of leaking them.
Raquel Baranow (talk) 04:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, those are not reliable sources. In fact that first one comes pretty close to being outright fake news.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
It might be premature to call it a conspiracy theory, since the case is unsolved, but that's what the term means. TFD (talk) 05:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
TFD, I'm not opposed to including the mention. How do you suggest we incorporate it in the text? James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 05:28, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
I would just use the term conspiracy theories. TFD (talk) 04:45, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Ernie, that's not really the issue here. The issue is whether the alternate language proposed here accurately reflects the source which clearly reports these "theories" as being politically motivated drivel. SPECIFICO talk 16:52, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Currently I count 5 support and 2 oppose with stronger arguments for support. SPECIFICO: I take it from your critical replies you intend to !vote oppose. If you would like to change your comment to a !vote or add a !vote (making 3 opposes) please do. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
This is not an election and as I said at the outset, it's not a properly formatted RfC. There's clearly no consensus to add your POV wording (my opinion) so this is kind of a pointless exercise. SPECIFICO talk 18:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Not every edit requires an RfC. If it did we wouldn't have much of an encyclopedia. For the purpose of consensus I will count you as oppose. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 18:57, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
It looks preposterous to read an editor stating that he will count votes on a malformed proposal he is promoting on the talk page. Please reflect. The only change that I can see in your proposed text is to give legitimacy to these "theories" as if they were alternative scenarios for the crime, when in fact RS unanimously characterize them as disingenuous promotion of fake news propaganda to promote certain interests of the perpetrators of the alleged "theories" which are not theories. There's no consensus to adopt the removal of RS characterization of these crazy insinuations, and nothing in this malformed thread is going to change that. SPECIFICO talk 19:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Disingenuous promotion of fake news propaganda to promote certain interests of the perpetrators of the alleged "theories" which are not theories is unencyclopedic. Consensus suggests "conspiracy theories" conveys the same information more appropriately and succinctly but your objection is noted. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:03, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
It's not "my" objection. It's WP policy that we accurately convey what's said by the cited source and the cited source is succinct and crystalline in its clarity. Crazy anti-Clintonian rubbish. And a very rude and brutal smear on the victim and his family. As noted repeatedly on this page. Check the archives if you are new to the neighborhood. SPECIFICO talk 20:06, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Reading this passage in the article only left me thoroughly confused and forced me to start googling around. This short amendment doesn't carry water for the conspiracy theory, and clearly labels it as such, but it does give us the minimum needed for context. This isn't really a content question, IMO, but a question of basic, coherent writing. Burley22 (talk) 18:30, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

That Newsweek content

Seems important to have the actual content referenced directly here on this page.

  • present sentence in article:
Newsweek reported that the murder stoked right-wing "Clinton conspiracy theories" and that Rich's parents were "distressed" by the politicization of his murder.
  • Quotes from the article:
The slain man’s parents, Mary and Joel Rich of Omaha, Nebraska, are distressed by the apparent political exploitation of their son’s death by Clinton’s opponents.
And that was enough to fire up the right-wing Twitterverse with yet another round of Clinton conspiracy theories,

Shearonink (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Shearonink: Yes, that quote (at least part of it) is listed above along with others buried in a mountain of replies. Search "Please demonstrate widespread RS discussion" on this page. If you have an opinion on whether the revised text is an improvement, please comment. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 20:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I did attempt to read through the various statements/edits/reverts on the present page and am having trouble following the through-line of what the various choices are. To me a clearer statement of the Newsweek information would be something very close to:
Newsweek reported that right-wing accounts on Twitter posted various conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton and that Rich's parents were distressed by Clinton opponents politicizing their son's death.
It doesn't seem to me that Seth Rich's parents were as distressed by the general discussion of the circumstances of his murder so much as they were distressed by Hillary Clinton's opponents exploiting their son's death for political gain.
I know that numerous RFCs have been opened/closed etc and much discussion has taken place on this particular sentence/subject matter previously - I'm not quite sure what the argument is about at this point.
  • Seth Rich was murdered.
  • He was a DNC staffer
  • People (just general unnamed people not necessarily experts or investigators having knowledge about the murder) made statements on social media that this murder happened because of .
And Misplaced Pages editors are attempting to come to an editorial consensus on how to lay all that out, keeping in mind WP guidelines and policies. I wish you all well, this doesn't look like an easy fix.
Interesting that this all got started when an editor (with 3 previous edits - in 2013 & only sandbox content, written in Japanese - about Operation Condor) posted an edit request... Shearonink (talk) 22:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Shearonink, I think that your statement above is indeed clearer. The "proposal" that launched this thread is truncated in a way that misrepresents the source. Seeing your well-written alternative side by side with the "proposed" version makes that abundantly clear. Thank you for your suggestion. I hope that others will see it and realize the defects of the version proposed in this thread. SPECIFICO talk 23:03, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Lots of interesting things about this article. Like the fact that its creator was soon NOTHERE blocked. Geogene (talk) 23:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
If it wasn't the Russians that leaked/hacked the DNC emails, then who did it?! That's why this article interests me. Raquel Baranow (talk) 23:17, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, that would be an interesting question RB, but the problem is that this article actually has nothing at all to do with the hacked emails. Its only connection to the emails is the fake news or conspiracy theory stories that were planted in the media after Mr. Rich was a crime victim. There might be a place on WP to discuss alternative scenarios as to the DNC hack, but I don't think this article would be the place for it. SPECIFICO talk 23:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
The specifics of the "conspiracy theories" should be mentioned in the article, as they are mentioned in the Newsweek article cited. Raquel Baranow (talk) 00:22, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
The specifics that they're "far-fetched", "right-wing", and mostly found on Twitter. Geogene (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

New report about private investigator hired by Rich family

Family's private investigator: There is evidence Seth Rich had contact with WikiLeaks prior to death: BREAKING NEWS! Raquel Baranow (talk) 03:11, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

There is no deadline. I suggest we wait until the additional info comes out tomorrow before updating the article. In the meantime, since there has been edit-warring over this, could the editor removing the material please explain. TFD (talk) 05:37, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Neither the primary nor the secondary source in this instance is reliable. In fact, if we gonna discuss this ... stupidity, then we'll have to discuss the "detective" who is making these half-assed claims and let's just say that's gonna be tricky from a BLP angle.
Anyway, this is just Fox News trying to deflect from the latest Trump-reveals-classified-info-to-Russians fall out.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:44, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
The story has been picked up by Fox network news, which is a reliable source, as is the local affiliate. People whose claims are picked up in reliable sources do not themselves have to be reliable. TFD (talk) 06:11, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Not really. Not for this info. Reliability is context specific.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:17, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
So you don't think the PI actually said that? TFD (talk) 06:55, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
The PI is a contributor to Fox News and not close to reliable. Simplexion (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Maybe Misplaced Pages has a policy against Fox News. That's fine, but some of the clearly judgmental language here suggests a bias in the editorial decisions made by wikipedia and that should concern the editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.215.113.195 (talk) 12:53, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
This has turned out to be a total bullshit story. The family has denounced the claims and completely refuted them - this "private investigator" has nothing to do with Seth Rich's family. The family of murdered Democratic National Committee staffer Seth Rich on Tuesday strongly rejected reports claiming he had been in contact with Wikileaks. "As we've seen through the past year of unsubstantiated claims, we see no facts, we have seen no evidence, we have been approached with no emails and only learned about this when contacted by the press," spokesperson Brad Bauman told BuzzFeed News in an emailed statement. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:21, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth, a few mainstream sources are beginning to report on the Fox report: The Washington Post, U.S. News & World Report. -Location (talk) 15:45, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

We'll need to add this somehow into the article eventually. Currently the conspiracy theory section doesn't really make any sense nor describe any context about what the theory is. That's a disservice to our readers. I don't see a policy that prevents us from saying something like the theories involve claims that Rich was the DNC emails leaker for Wikileaks but have been widely criticized as false or etc etc...Numerous AFDs have shown this article is notable and enduring, but we currently don't have any of the pertinent info in the article. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:25, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Now that we have more than one source (Fox News and BuzzFeed) reporting the story, we can mention it. TFD (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
The key part is "This has turned out to be a total bullshit story. The family has denounced the claims and completely refuted them". I think "do no harm", BLP (which applies to recently deceased) and UNDUE would suggest we simply ignore this malicious dumb-assery.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:43, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Though perhaps, if properly worded, in the Fox News article we could add something about "Fox news falsely reported that..." Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
A false report would be an inaccurate report. The PI did claim something and Fox News accurately reported what he claims. In my opinion, the ties of the PI to Fox News means that something outside of Fox News and their affiliates should report on it before it is included; this is also required per WP:REDFLAG. I don't think there is enough depth to the WaPo or USN@WR reports to get this into the article. -Location (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
My understanding is that Fox changed the story several times, so, yeah, false report.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Changed or updated? -Location (talk) 16:06, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure "changed". Here is their current version which has a different headline and has the stuff about family denying and debunking this nonsense on top, but everything below that is the original story. However, different versions (sometimes very different) have appeared in some local affiliates so I'm not 100% certain.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Independent reporting? Are either of them reporting all the reborn WP accounts and IP fly-by activity on this page? SPECIFICO talk 15:47, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Looks like Fox was had. The editors that fell for this nonsense need to be troutslapped. Geogene (talk) 16:29, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

NBC is reporting the third party was a Fox News/Breitbart Contributor who paid for a Fox News Contributor to "investigate" the murder. Froo (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for posting the link. Is anyone surprised? -Location (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: a couple disruptive accounts which are clearly WP:NOTHERE are trying to add this to WP:InTheNews . This violates BOTH WP:HOAX and WP:BLP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:33, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Citing reliable sources at the time of their posting does not equate to fly-by disruptive edits. It was best info we had at the time. All these statements about editors intentionally presenting false news, editors being stupid and being banned, it is mean-spirited. --RandomUser3510 (talk) 17:15, 16 May 2017 (UTC) WP:GOODFAITH

It's not "mean-spirited", it's accurate. These editors insist on reinserting this crap after it's been pointed out to them that it's a hoax and that it's causing real harm and grief to the family of the victim. I'm sorry, but where BLP is concerned, and you have something that has potential to cause real world harm you can take your "assume goodfaith" and shove it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have not seen information that indicates the Fox reports have been refuted. Fox based their article on two human sources: the PI and an unnamed federal investigator, the latter of whom claimed to have seen the emails between Rich and Wikileaks personally. The family's objections do not refute the article any more than your highly emotional reaction refutes it -- the family's position boils down to: "we don't know, we haven't heard that, and we didn't authorize the PI to speak about it". Hardly a refutation. Wookian (talk) 18:29, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Links have been provided. Fox originally claimed that the PI was "family's private investigator". The family unequivocally stated this was false. The "unnamed federal investigator" thing was added after the PI story turned out to be bullshit. And please, quit it with the condescending "emotional reaction" crap.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:01, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

The Fox News story isn't necessarily "false." A retired detective hired by a 3rd party to investigate said there was an email exchange between Rich and Wikileaks. The family says this is unsubstantiated. The family spokesman says even if true it doesn't mean what conspiracy theorists think. Fox news reported this. There's no doubt at this point there is a conspiracy theory that Rich was the source of the Wikileaks DNC emails. The family denies this and mainstream media seems to agree. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:10, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure originally they (possibly some other source) claimed the detective had been hired by the family and was speaking on their behalf. They changed it to "hired by a 3rd party" and threw him under the bus, trying to pin all the blame on him for the hoax, once it got exposed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:28, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Yup, originally Fox claimed Wheeler was "family's private investigator". It's fake news and now they're trying to cover it up by blaming it all on Wheeler.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:31, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Ernie, you recently came to me and Marek asking us to AGF with you and watch you get your ban lifted. Please consider whether this thread is currently the best use of your talents.
Wow, that sounds like a threat? What is this remark doing on this Talk page? If I misunderstood (hope I did) please explain relevance to the discussion about the article. Wookian (talk) 18:29, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Not in the slightest. SPECIFICO talk 18:38, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
If you have concerns about my conduct please use the appropriate noticeboard or my talk page. I find your comments here very chilling. This talk page should be used to improve the content of the article. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
It has now been reported in Business Insider, Fox 5 DC, Fox News, Washington Post, Haaretz, Buzzfeed and other sources. Maybe news media should not report this, but it is not our role as editors to decide what mainstream media report but to ensure that Misplaced Pages articles reflect it. Call up Correct the Record, get them to comment and we can put that in too. If we cannot resolve this, I will set up an RfC, but will wait to see what further coverage there is. Already though there are sufficient sources to mention the matter in a neutral manner. TFD (talk) 18:42, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Alright, I can see the importance of this. But given the serious BLP issues in play, the precise wording is crucial. I suggest that before adding anything to the article editors make proposals here. And make sure they accurately reflect the sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
But just for the record, Fox 5 DC and Fox News are not reliable here. Indeed, as far as this story goes, they are WP:PRIMARY since the other WP:SECONDARY sources are describing their fuck up (whether that was publishing the story in the first place or getting caught in a lie)Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

This new article appears credible and detailed: "Family of slain DNC staffer Seth Rich blasts detective over report of WikiLeaks link". Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:10, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

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