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Arabs in Maghreb

I find it silly when some Berber people want us to be of Berber descent.We are Arabs!and even if our ancestors were Berbers,now we would be Arabised so don't force us to be Berber,as you don't like being forced to be Arab.It is called racism.So the phrases like "berbers no longer speak Berber language,they identify themselves as ARABS" are idiotic and disinform the peple.

Most Moroccans are Sunni Muslims of Arab, Berber, or mixed Arab-Berber stock. The Arabs invaded Morocco in the 7th and 11th centuries and established their culture there. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5431.htm

Nearly all Algerians are Muslim, of Arab, Berber, or mixed Arab-Berber stock. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/8005.htm

please note that the word ARAB is always the first,it means it is predominantly ARAB.We are all proud of being of Arab ancestry as you're proud of your Berber language,peace

Berbers, Arabs and Ethnicity Wars

The article's discussion of ethnicity in North Africa strikes me as rather poorly done and internally contradictory. To quote The people of North Africa can be divided into roughly four distinct groups: the Arabs, that came in the 700's and mixed with the berbers, the Berbers of the Maghreb; the Tuareg and other, original black Berbers; and the Nilotic blacks of the Nile Valley. Maghreb Berbers are generally fairer-skinned than the Berbers to the east. They are considered indigenous to the area, and are believed to be the descendants of black Berbers mixed with Asiatic and Caucasoid peoples who spread westward, laterally across the continent. Berbers predominate in the northwestern part of Africa, but the area also hosts various black Berber peoples and equatorial Africans, as well. Over the centuries, there has been some intermarriage producing a population with a wide range of phenotypical characteristisc, ranging from fair skin and straight hair to swarthy to dark complexions and curly or kinky hair.

Most Maghreb Berbers outside much of Morocco and parts of Algeria identify themselves as Arabs and no longer speak Tamazight, their original language, but speak Arabic. Far more Tuareg Berbers speak Tamazight -- an Afro-Asiatic language-- but they, too, have been Arabized culturally, though to a far lesser extent than have the Berbers of the Maghreb.

First, the seperate citation of Tuareg from other berbers and the assertion of 'original black berbers' strikes me as confused and without foundation (as well as in contradiction with the much stronger Berbers article. I am aware of hypotheses of ancient black - as in sub-Saharan African phenotype populations in North Africa - in the Saharan region, which seem well supported, but calling them Berber strikes me as excessively speculative and unsupported by scholarship. I will rephrase this if there are not strong cited objections.

Second, the reference to Asiatic and Caucasoid populations seems again speculative and using dated, inaccurate language. (The phrase "some intermarriage" strikes me as an amusingly dim understatement, as a resident of the region). The assertion regarding Berbers in the Maghreb versus "farther East" is factually incorrect, as any visitor to the Siwan Oasis can tell.

Third, the discussion of Arab versus Berber is bizarre and very POV. It would be far less prejudicial to note most Arabs in North Africa are of at least partial Berber descent (although our Algerian commentator below seems to be in a bit of a tizzy about the low liklihood of actual djezira arabiya genes in his lineage), rather than the prejudicial Berbers identifying as Arabs language. (Collounsbury 09:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)).

== My question is a simple one. We often hear of the politically correct term "African American" to refer to American Blacks. I've always felt that this term was innacurate in the sense that not all of Africa is populated by what you would consider "Blacks". (Plus, being a Canadian, we've never adopted the term "African-Canadian") Aside from European colonizers in South Africa, Zimbabwe etc...a large portion of Africans from north of the Sahara are simply not "Black". Should a Moroccan-American be considered an "African-American" or not? The political correctness reached the pinnacle of silliness when Jay Leno's wife, on speaking of the terrible treatment of women in Taliban Afghanistan, compared their plight to that of "African-Americans in Apartheid South Africa". Really? Are there really that many African-Americans in South Africa? If so, what are they doing there? Are they on vacation from the U.S.?Loomis51 00:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

What does this question have to do with North Africa? If there is a real question, it would be what is the classification in North America of North Africans. That's a North American problem, but per my best understanding, in the US immigration data records almost all North Africans as "white." My understanding may be defective of course. (Collounsbury 09:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)).

I am Arab from Algeria and i know we are Arabs in origin,we have an Arab identity and the berbers from Algeria or Morocco recognize us as ARAB CONQUERANTS since 1400 years,some Arabs obviously mixed with berbers just like all the Arabs did everywhere they went,but we are still ethnically ARAB.It is not serious telling that we are BERBERS in origin,then in an other article ( maghreb ) tlling we are predominantly of middle eastern origin.It is contradictory,actually even the US GOVERNMENT is mistaken,the US DEPARTEMENT OF STATE tells Algerians are of arab,arab-bereber or berber stock then the world factor book tells we are almost all berbers in origin.Europeans see MAGHREB as the symbol of Arab world,Europeans moved to America,Arabs moved to North Africa,simply. I OBVIOSULY correctd this article telling "most of the berbers identify themselves as Arabs" because it doesn't make sense.If you tell an Arab from Algeria or Morocco he is Berber he would be surprised,if you tell a berber that Arabs from Algeria or Morocco are BERBERS he would tell you "THEY CAME FROM ARABIA AND ARE NOT BERBERS".Arabs from Middle East including Egyptians condier us as Arabs ethnically and so do we.Unlike the Arabized black Africans Sudanese that call themselves ARABS but are not considered as ethnically ARABS by us or by the Middle Eastern Arabs.Also i tell that MAGHREB and MIDDLE EAST are not very opposed culturally,the differences almost don't exist.

"Those who traveled North were almost entirely absorbed into the waves of Middle Easterners who had already begun their migrations into the region."

This is based on the almost certainly false assumption that the Afro-Asiatic languages originated in the Middle East. In fact, most modern linguists think they came out of the Horn of Africa, whose population then was much more racially diverse than it is today. --Mustafa.

---

It's not a good idea to crop off the southern half of Africa just too save space on this page. Having the whole continent orientates the reader better. --Menchi 01:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. The image is reasonably small byte-wise and while it is rather wide (360px), it's still within the customary limits. The height doesn't matter much because the list by which it is placed extends downwards so there's enough room. --Shallot 12:32, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

religions groups

Few Studies

I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa. --Orionix 23:52, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like that could be explained in terms of quite recent history... - Mustafaa 00:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is getting a bit comleccated for a 8 year old like me--SmartyJon (i dont think i am so smart now

Sudan, Canary Islands, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Madeira?

The official language of Ethiopia Amharic is a derivative of Ge'ez, both Afro-Asiatic languages that are typical of other North African countries. This is the basis for the classification of both countries as North African, although the majority of people in both countries are considered to be Black Africans (and thus Eastern) as a result of skin color. --- The article says that Sudan, the Canary Islands, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Madeira are countries of North Africa. How could that be? North African people are racially white, and countries like Sudan, Canary Islands, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Madeira have a black African majority. So, how could these countries be described as North African?--66.81.168.114 02:40, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The reason for this is that Ethiopia and the surrounding areas are known for the rich ancient history which compels many people of European descent to emotionally classify them further away from a "pure" black perspective, towards a more comforting "white" perspective. The closer the association northward, the closer to the "white". The civilization of Ethiopia is older than any other, and therefore it is hard for many to accept that this civilization is a Black one. While on the other hand it's beyond a doubt that Ethiopia is not an Arab, or Middle Eastern country. Therefore the green color of Ethiopia is tinted differently from the rest, allowing those who cling emotionally to a "non" black Ethiopian past the comfort when they see the picture, and acknowledging (grudgingly) that Ethiopia is not really a part of North Africa.

Don't you think you could have come up with a more decent, non-racist answer (whoever you are)? Ethiopia is probably considered to be part of North Africa sometimes because it is commonly considered to be part of NE Africa, therefore it can be considered to be in both East Africa and North Africa. Also, it is closely related to North Africa, and thus to Eurasia, culturally. The civilization of Ethiopia is not "older than any other", there are plenty that are older (viz. Egypt, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, Babylon, Canaan, Minoa, Greece, India, China, Olmec, Maya, Kush, Rome, Persia, Media; not in chronological order, but all being older than Axum, which was Ethiopia's first empire). This, of course, doesn't mean that Ethiopia's is any less than any other civilization, because not all civilizations can arise and climax or even exist at the same time. There is no need to take jabs at an entire group of people the way this person has done. I won't attempt to psychoanalyze this person the was they have distressingly attempted to psychoanalyze others (obviously not so much for the sake of understanding and explaining the thoughts and words of others as for the sake of attacking them), for the deeper reason they have said these things is one that only they can share with us. --Jugbo

I wanted to make a comment about Eritreans.MOST Eritreans dont look like they are from Sudan or Ethiopia. Most are light skinned and have more curlier hair and are associated as looking more like the North Africans from Egypt. There is even a group there called the Rashaida there who look like they are "white". So I dont see anything wrong with associating Eritrea as being apart of North Africa. This is how you can tell Ethiopians and Eritreans apart.

I looked in the berber artiles and there was nothing there that supported your arguemnts that berbers who inhabit most of north africa were not black. Same goes for Egypt. This seems to be a very one-sided view. It makes no sense that in the Egypt and berber artilces we acknowlegde that Egyptians are a racial mixture of black and arab and other and north africans originate in east africa and have 75% of that blood group and here says the opposite. This article needs to be consistent with the other views represented on wiki. You can't have 3 different articles saying 3 different things about 1 group of people. I'm going to remove the part where you say that North Africans are non-black because there are already other articles that refute that and explain why so I don't really need to parrot other people. I will simply leave it with no race explained until this gets hammered out because we should not be misleading and confusing people with opposite definitions on one race or country of people. Besides I don't really know how race determines what geographical location you are? I mean do we say Italians, Spainards and Portugese people are in south europe because they are mixed with moor or do we say they they are south europe because of there physical location(Southern region of Europe). Jmac800

I removed the blantant contradiction from the article. It said that North Africans were Arabs followed by saying they are berbers. What a contradiction people won't take this site seriously if it is filled with them. Yes they have Arabic culture but the vast majority of them are Berbers with arabic culture.

"North Africa is often set apart from the sub-Saharan African region, as the desert serves more of an obstacle to communication than the sea itself." No source just someone spewing trash. I have no problem with statements that are fact based. This is clearly not. 1. No source is provided. 2. The Ocean was not a barrier as proven by the Romans and especially the Carthgians who never had trouble running a massive maritime trade. 3. There were various kingdoms who traded using the Sahara and Kanem Bornu set up a powerful empire based on basically robbing people who passed through the Sahara to go to East asia or West africa. The Wagdou of Ghana and the Songhai empire never seemed to have trouble passing this impassible barrier and setting up empire in them.

Western Sahara

I would like to see references of the UN definition of North Africa. The UNICEF for example (a UN "affiliate") doesn't include it at all. At the UN website, when North Africa is dealt with, Western Sahara is sometimes mentionned and sometimes not. My point is, even though you can sometimes find a reference to it, it is misleading to place it at the same level as Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, etc., in that it easily leads to misreading it as a state (despite the term territory being used).

The UN has an unambigous division of the African continent into subregions for statistical and other purposes. Possibly the African Union has a slightly different way of geo-grouping its members. //Big Adamsky 12:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I second that, BA. For clarity and consistency, I've reorganised and edited regional articles about Africa ... and will be doing so to the main article soon. Apropos, I purposely used the term "territories" (and not "countries" or "states") to account for Western Sahara (given its political status) and its inclusion in the UN subregion of Northern Africa. I hope this helps. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

It does, thank you EPA. I couldn't find the link by myself. What do you think about reformulating it as "countries and territories", in order to avoid any confusion? --Yobaranut 01:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

NP. Hmmm, I'm unsure that would clarify anything: we are properly describing six sovereign states/countries and (just) one 'anomaly' claimed by one of those states – "territories" is descriptive yet neutral. We could even say "political divisions" or add a parenthetical note to the WS entry, but I think anything else would be superfluous. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 03:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Claimed by vs Occupied by with links

Koavf, the issue has alread been discussed (WS section). Mostly occupied by is POV, as the territory is disputed. Claimed by is more NPOV.--Yobaranut 17:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

===>What? The Sahara is a classic example of an occupied territory! How is it not occupied? Saying that it's claimed by such-and-such does nothing to explain the reality of the political situation. -Justin (koavf), talk 19:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

That's why there are articles that specifically deal with those topics and are wikilinked appropriately: we needn't overload an introduction with excessive details or varied interpretations of the political status of WS that are elaborated upon elsewhere. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Okay Well, this is hardly TMI, as it's two extra words. But that still doesn't actually answer or even address my question, and the fact that it is occupied is an undeniable fact, so stating it is not POV; in point of fact, it's completely relevant. -Justin (koavf), talk 20:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Arguably, it is TMI: the list upfront is summative, and wikilinks below are sufficient. Shall we include capitals or area figures as well? These details are dealt with elsewhere. And this is more than sufficient for your query. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Not really Even if we agree to disagree about the TMI, my question was:

"How is not occupied?"

It was directed to Yobaranut, but anyone can jump in here. This will lead to the question, "How is the phrase 'mostly occupied' POV?" -Justin (koavf), talk 20:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

For a short answer: because for a significant part of the world, maybe a majority, saying that WS is occupied is like saying that California is occupied by the United States. So both are POV since its status is actually disputed. "Claimed by" is NPOV, it doesn't say who's right and who's wrong. Like EPA, I think the point is made and going over it again is beating a dead horse.--Yobaranut 23:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Deal with it. The current phrasing is succinct and sufficient. Anyone can visit the wikilinks below for more information. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Okay Our conversation is done. There's no reason to say "deal with it;" if you don't like what I have to say, ignore it, as the entire point was not directed at you in the first place. -Justin (koavf), talk 20:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Why should I refrain from commentary? I will "jump in" whenever I please. After all, this is a talk page all Wikipedians have access to. Importantly, when you continue to insinuate a POV and making a point despite two editors who previously discussed this (above) and still disagree with you, you deserve the rebuke you got. And yes: this conversation is done. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 21:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Don't forget your place You have no authority over me, so please don't act so condescending or as though you have some right to be anything less than civil to me. You don't need to act persecuted: I didn't tell you to not jump in, or that you have no right to voice your opinion. I'm not insinuating a POV - what exactly is the POV? Can you tell me that? -Justin (koavf), talk 00:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

• Yobaranut: I'm not exactly sure what it is you are saying here, but people's opinion of fact is irrelevant - fact itself is. If most governments/people thought that the West Bank wasn't occupied, should Misplaced Pages say it's not? Of course not. The West Bank is undeniably occupied. So is the Sahara. It's factual, not a matter of taste or opinion. -Justin (koavf), talk 00:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • It is very much a matter of taste, it is no less a matter of taste than saying Montana is occupied by the US (and there are some nuts out there who do support that idea that Montana is occupied - does that mean it is?). There is a dispute of a greater scale in the case of WS indeed, thanks to Algerian and Spanish support among others, but it doesn't make it less POV to say that it is occupied than saying it is undisputably Moroccan. Anyway, this is all offtopic relatively to this article, and it has already been settled --Yobaranut 01:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Western Sahara vs. Montana The simple fact that you call those people nuts shows that your comparison is inherently flawed. The United States does not maintain control of Montana by using its military, subsidizing settlers, laying down a huge wall of landmines, or napalming innocent refugees. There will always be people that deny reality, but the reality is that the Sahara is a classic example of an occupied territory. Can you explain how it isn't occupied, since it apparently is. -Justin (koavf), talk 02:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever been in those places? No seriously, I know both Algeria and Morocco for having family in both, and having lived/spent much time there, for having family and friends in both countries. My family was out there in Algeria back in 75 when Algerian regime unsuccessfully tried to get a piece of the WS cake. We saw them when after failing, they started going around with their loudspeakers, loading young unemployed Algerians from the streets into military trucks from as far as the Tunisian border and dumping them in Tindouf to call them Saharan refugees. I'm not saying Morocco is clean in this story, but despite all the evil you could say about Hassan II, he wasn't stupid, and he knew how to kill the chicken in the egg. The Polisario might have had a case back in 75, but with each round of agreements, the majority of old historical leadership of the Polisario defected bits by bits, leaving only a bunch of power hungry radicals in bed with the Algerian military. The fact that you compare the WB to the WS shows how much you're out of touch with that reality too. I have been to Israel and the WB too, worked there and spent some time. Sahraouis have Moroccan citizenship, they have equal rights with other Moroccans and even some priviledges, those who give up armed fight against Morrocco are given full amnesty and can live like any other Moroccan, etc, etc. I wish the situation of Palestinians, even those with Israeli citizenship was anything close.--Yobaranut 02:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yobaranut, wanted to simply express my appreciation for note. As an old North Africa hand, I was bemused to find the Western Sahara situ blown up as it is here on the wiki. (Collounsbury 01:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

Now this is going way too off topic, and I don't think the purpose of this page is promoting a cause, or a POV over another. So I'm over (really:)) with this subject in this talk page, unless it has relevance to edition of this article.--Yobaranut 02:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Language Assertions

I have once more removed this sentence: "The dialects spoken in the Sahara (both Arabic and Berber) are in general notably more conservative than those of the coast. " for three reasons: one I fail to see the relevance; two although I understand the linguistic reference as written it would be prone to misunderstanding by non-specialists (or those unfamiliar with the usage; three, I am not sure it is true and would like to see a citation. (collounsbury 19:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)) I also edited the Berberist assertions re identity. I am certainly not hostile to Berber identity aspirations -being married to a Chleuha, but the spin being put on Berber versus Arab identity in the Maghreb is most certainly political POV and highly discussable from a factual POV. "Sensitivity" to Berberist feelings is not the purpose of NPOV policy. (collounsbury 19:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC))

You characterization of the passage is rather bizarre! How does your last edit differ in substance from what was said, or help remove the purported "spin" or the so-called "Berberist POV phrasing"?!! Zerida 21:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

All in the phrasing mate, all in the phrasing. I was trying not to be anything more than an editor there. (collounsbury 21:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC))

Requested move

South Africa is a country, the region is Southern Africa. Renaming this article to that of its current redirect page would create consistency among the designations for the regions of Africa: Southern Africa, Northern Africa, Eastern Africa, Western Africa, and Central Africa.

• Support Makes sense to me. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Its name is "North Africa". While that may not be the common form of name for a region, it isn't up to Misplaced Pages to change the language to be more regular. Instead, our job is to report usage, and not to be prescriptive. --Yath 13:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose For same reasons as Yath. Dbinder (talk) 14:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

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