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Thank you and have a good night! ] (]) 03:25, 14 June 2017 (UTC) Thank you and have a good night! ] (]) 03:25, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

== Peter Dinklage ==
Hello, I'm in desperat need for someone to do a source review for ] that I have nominated for FAC, If you have time, could you have a look? So far it has three supports and no source review as of today. - ] (]) 13:53, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 13:53, 15 June 2017

I absolutely despise talkpage templates. Please don't use them here. If you do use one, by all the gods, sign it so it archives and put it in its own section!
I prefer to keep both sides of my discussions together. If you leave me a message here, I will reply here. But if I left a note on your talk page, feel free to reply there or here, as I'm watching your page for a bit.

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TPSs ....

Anyone have access to this article from Nature in 2012? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I do, at least at university. JoJo Eumerus mobile (talk) 07:58, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

My apologies

...for referring to you as "him". I'm so sorry.

I see further up the page that this has been a source of frustration for you so I hate that I have added to that. In your preferences, you can check the box that reads "She edits wiki pages" and that will make it evident when someone hovers over your username. It would have helped in this case because I did that but it didn't have an identifier for you.

I won't make this mistake again.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I generally don't want to set the preferences because I don't want the harrassment that often comes from such things. I wasn't really so much testy as sorta amused..... it keeps coming up and coming up... As for Neddy - I'm not sure that his putting some of my subpages into his own subpage back in 2007 and 2008 means that much, as I really can't recall that we interacted ever - and I see that the interaction tool shows that we've only ever edited one talk page in common - and we did not interact on that page (I rated it for a project and he moved it afterwards). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:56, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Editing Holocaust

Thank you for your help. I truly appreciate it. I will try to read better the instructions of Wiki, but it's hard for me to understand them. Can I ask you to help me more?

Thank you. Regards. Henia Perlman (talk) 21:53, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I really am not a good choice as a mentor - I'm super busy in my real life and do not have a lot of time to mentor. And, frankly, I'm a pretty poor mentor/teacher for wikipedia anyway. You're better off listening to Carole. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:13, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi Henia I would be happy to help you out. You have shown a really good attitude, and it is difficult learning the ropes here. If you want any help, just drop me a note on my talk page. I am not always around, but I will usually get back in 24 hours. Please leave a note giving me an idea on what edit you want to do. This will save you getting reverted and I will try to explain to you whether the edit is a good idea or not. I will try to get you up to speed with the basics first. Simon. Irondome (talk) 23:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry Henia, it seems you have already established a good working relationship with Carole so I think it is polite that you develop that without me getting in the way. Carole is an excellent colleague. Good luck Henia! Regards, Simon. Irondome (talk) 23:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Normandy arms

The problem, as I am sure you are aware, is that what started out as attributed arms (based on the just-so-story that two lions for the Norman kings - presumably representing Normandy and England - and one for Eleanor's Aquitaine, were combined to produce the three-lion Plantagenet royal arms) came to be used as the popular arms and flag of Normandy. For this reason, I have not been as active in removing or demoting it as I am for other attributed arms. It is probably a legitimate image to have on the Normandy template, as long as no claim to antiquity is made. The bigger problem I have run into in this cleanup is that it is hard to win a content dispute when someone attributes to Eleanor or William the C one of these arms and can cite one of the various sloppy popular heraldry books that have repeated the attribution of these false-arms without qualification. I need to dig out my copy of Adrian Ailes' study that goes into detail on every documented arms used by the first generations of the Plantagenets (including, notably, the future king John using this two-lion coat) that I could then cite, but alas, I have no idea where I packed it away. Agricolae (talk) 00:06, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I know that feeling, the one of "where did I put that book, which box is it in?". Worse, we're trying to move (slowly, slowly) so some books have been packed up for a year or more so I'm having to buy second copies cheap because I can't just keep getting them from the library! No worries on the arms, I've almost given up on the whole fight about the stupid little flag icons. Not sure why folks are so bloody attached to the things... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:18, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
You realise that you're a Yank but you've been editing on British subjects too long when 1) you can't remember if it's correct Am-English for "realise" or "realize" and 2) you use the word "bloody" in a sentence that doesn't describe fluids... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:30, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Editing the Holocaust article

My goal is to improve the article, in its current prsentation. It is very clear that the Holocaust (class B article) needs improvements in its content and its structure.

One must present a tentative definition of Nazism and its symbol, the swastika, which were not in the original article. The style: some sentences seem not to connect - I edited that, and I added a reference in "Ideology" that aonther editor requested. And how one decides which source is better than another one, especially when my editing rely on Bauer, Browning, Longerich, Gilbert, and Yahil.

I am new. I thank you all for your patience, and your help to edit with the goal of improving the article, Holocaust. I am sure we want to improve the article, so it becomes class A.

I will post this message in TALK so everybody understand that I am behaving in good faith.

Regards.Henia Perlman (talk) 18:35, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

References in article Holocaust

Thank you so much for putting the reference with correct template. I think that chapter 40 (14 pages, if I remember) is enough, as there, Bauer compared the Holocaust to other genocide, and the current sentence in "Ideology and scale correctly summarizes the spirit of Bauer's article in chapter 40.

Thank you again.Henia Perlman (talk) 18:52, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, no, I did not put the reference in the correct template - that would be how it was explained to you on your talk page to use the template that starts "sfn". I just slapped some ref tags around it while I try to figure out what exactly the work IS. You haven't actually given enough information to figure out what the work is, however. Is this the work edited by Dear & Foot? Or some other Companion to World War II? And see the new section on the talk page of the article, where I express some concerns about putting in information where it appears that you do not actually have access to the source any more. This is a problem - you'll want to read WP:VERIFY. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Editor's Barnstar
For your outstanding efforts on verifying sources and on your sensitive and thoughtful maintenance work on The Holocaust over the past days. Bloody good job! Irondome (talk) 23:46, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2017

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2017).

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Your GA nomination of Geoffrey Talbot

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Geoffrey Talbot you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Seraphim System -- Seraphim System (talk) 13:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

FAC reviewing barnstar

The Reviewer Barnstar
FAC can't function without people like you contributing reviews. Thank you for the fourteen FAC source reviews and the regular review you did during May. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:26, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Henia, mentorship

To stop any escalating issues I have formally offered to WP:Mentor H. I have asked her to run any proposed edits over with me on my talkpage. Hopefully this should improve things. Irondome (talk) 17:51, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I"m off to return library books and pick up a few more. I also ordered a pile of used books from Amazon... they should be overwhelming my poor mailperson shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:53, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Great job! I am thinking that that will include supporting stuff for the destruction of Mengele's medical records by Otmar von Verschuer in the medical experiments section. I am staggered that a person with such a history could slip seamlessly back into the post-war science community. Scary thought..Irondome (talk) 17:59, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Mentorship by Simon. Wannsee by Longerich

1. I am thankful that Simon is my mentor. 2. My goal: to improve the article, with consensus and help with my English and technology, so readers can understand it better, as my students had problems with it.

3. Wannsee: "that would involve some 11 million Jews living not only in territories then controlled by Germany, but throughout continental Europe, Ireland, Great Britain, French North Africa, and Turkey.

This is not supported by Longerich. I think that I changed the above, added the important mention of the 700,000 Jews in French North Africa, but somebody keeps changing it, so I gave up - yes, I did! French North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland are also not in continental Europe.

Here Longerich's exact quotation, p. 307: “11 million Jews … This list includes Jews in … Great Britan, Ireland, Portugal, Sweden, Swtzerland, Spain, and Turkey. Included in the 700,000 Jews for unoccupied France are those of the North African colonies.

Longerich p. 391: … the Jews of French North Africa, who had already been included among the victims of the coming ‘Final Solution’ envisaged at the Wannsee Conference. … The German occupiers introduced forced labour for Jews; some 5,000 Jews were affected by these measures. … also sent around twenty arrested Jewish activists to the extermination camps. … confiscation … money …extorted...

Jews of French NOrth Africa were correctly considered as Jews of Europe, thatthe Nazi were planning at Wannsee to kill

Can you please mention this citation, as requested in the article (about 5,000 Jews). Thank you for all your ahrd work, and I mean it. I really feel very old and tired. I apologize for my English.Henia Perlman (talk) 03:45, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Henia - this properly belongs on the article talk page, so that all the editors on the article can see it. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:59, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Leni Yahil

Ealdgyth I strongly recommend the book by Yahil.Henia Perlman (talk) 03:49, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

German occupied Europe

I am not sure if you see Simon messages, so here it it for you too: German occupied Europe Suggestion without undue weight Here it is:

German–occupied Europe or Nazi Europe refers to the sovereign countries of Europe, INCLUDING FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (ref. 1) which were occupied by the military forces of Nazi Germany at various times between 1939 and 1945 and administered by the Nazi regime.(ref. 2)

Ref. 1: Shoah - Block 27 http://auschwitz.org/en/visiting/national-exhibitions/shoah-block-27 Map of Nazi-occupied Europe (inclusive of French North Africa in map of Europe and in narrative) http://culture.pl/en/event/new-permanent-exhibition-at-auschwitz-birkenau https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/media-room/news-archive/opening-new-permanent-exhibition-%E2%80%9Cshoah%E2%80%9D-auschwitz-birkenau “ … the new exhibition, which is divided into several galleries. They are devoted to such things as Jewish life before the war, the ideology of the Nazis and the extermination of Jews within the Nazi-occupied Europe.” http://auschwitz.org/en/visiting/national-exhibitions/shoah-block-27 http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/news/shoah-new-exhibition-in-block-27-light-of-remembrance-for-avner-shalev-,1016.html “the story of the Jews that were persecuted and murdered, here and across the European continent”

“In November 1942, … French North Africa … this extension of Europe ...” Kaspi, André Les Juifs pendant l'occupation. Seuil, Paris: Éditions du Seuil 1991; p. 175.

  • German Map of Europe of the German general staff dated 20, 1942; in p. 3 of article written by Dr. Norbert Kampe, historian and then Director of the Wannsee House, and published in SHALOM/VOL. XLI/PRINTEMPS 2004/PESSAH 5764

http://www.shalom-magazine.com/pdfs/41/Fr/KAMPE%20FR_41.pdf German map of Europe http://www.diercke.de/kartenansicht.xtp?artId=978-3-14-100770-1&seite=62&id=15966&kartennr=1# Yad Vashem writes: “Under the French-German cease-fire agreement, North Africa was considered part of unoccupied Vichy France” http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205726.pdf

Ref. 2: Encyclopædia Britannica, German occupied Europe. World War II. Retrieved 1 September 2015 from the Internet Archive.

I just now read messages by Carole and Eadgylt (I think), and I am truly sorry. But I am trying hard. I also thought to share with you my research, as I am planning to edit more:

France, mentioned in the article, was and is a transcontinental country, which, during WWII included mainland France or the Metropole, and France d’outre-mer (overseas) which included the 91, 92, 93, 94 departments in French Algeria, an integral part of the French republic, and the two French protectorate of Morocco and Tunisia; according to Kaspi there were 700,000 Jews living there (300,000 in mainland France and 400,000 in French North Africa). Kaspi, André Les Juifs pendant l'occupation. Seuil, Paris: Éditions du Seuil 1991; p. 177

In his book Himmler A Life, Longerich writes that in December 1942, Himmler discussed with Hitler the destruction of 600-700.000 Jews of France: “… there are currently at least 1.5 million deadly enemies of the Axis living … in the previously part of France, namely 600,000-700,000 Jews… ‘The Fuhrer gave orders that the Jews and other enemies in France should be arrested and deported. This should take place, however, only once he has spoken with Laval about it. It is a matter of 6-700.000 Jews.’" in ch. 21. The Murder of the European Jews, p. 648. Longerich tells about the fate of the Jews in French North Africa as part of the Holocaust in France, in his “brief survey of the fate of the Jews in the countries occupied by and allied with Germany” and the “systematic murder of the Jews of Europe” (Longerich, Peter (2010). Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press; p. 435, and p. 492). “Included in the 700,000 Jews for unoccupied France are those of the North African colonies.” p. 307. “… the Jews of French North Africa, who had already been included among the victims of the coming ‘Final Solution’ envisaged at the Wannsee Conference.” p. 391

A successor to the Madagascar project In his note for Himmler Eichmann wrote that this project would encompass ‘a total of some 5.8 million Jews’, … four million …Madagascar project. Planning had evidently been extended in the meantime to include German allies and satellites in Estern Europe and the Jews in the French colonies. p. 173.

Madagascar project … Rademacher’s August memo … he now estimated the number of Jews to be sent to Madagascar as 6.5 million, an indication that the Jews from south-east Europe as well as those from the French colonies in North Africa were to be included. p. 510.

Yehuda Bauer, Academic Advisor to YV, tells about the fate of the Jews in French North Africa in his section on the Jews in Europe in his book A History of the Holocaust, (1982), (p. 248): “ten: WESTERN EUROPEAN JEWRY, 1940-1944 FRANCE Algerian Jews under Vichy Rule (p. 256) In Algeria ... Cremieux ... Simialr measures ... in Morocco and Tunisia. ... Haven and London: Yale University Press, 2001

I am going to sleep. Thank you Simon, Eadgy?, and Carole.Henia Perlman (talk) 08:38, 11 June 2017 (UTC)Henia Perlman (talk) 08:46, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

All this belongs on the various article talk pages. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Geoffrey Talbot

The article Geoffrey Talbot you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Geoffrey Talbot for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Seraphim System -- Seraphim System (talk) 14:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Alert...

Will be gone for a bit ... nothing bad, just have to go help encourage hubby's grandchild to get with the program and be born. Will not be around much, but have tablet. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:21, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Recent good article review

I have a concern about an editor whose article I just reviewed Sagecandor. I advised him that Good Article development takes time and is often the product of multiple editors working together. He became increasingly hostile and demanded that I not review anymore of his articles because I was "making up criteria" - my concerns were that the article did not meet the 1a criteria. I also do not know how I can judge stability on an article that has only one significant contributor and has only been live for a few days. He has also marked several articles for review, but because of the prose/style issues in his articles and his unusually hostile reaction when he realized I wasn't going to pass his article, I want to bring the situation to the attention of one of our most experienced reviewers. I also see that he has put up several articles for GA review, all created within the last week, and all of them suffering from the same problems as the article I reviewed (inlcuding overlinking and general prose style) - they are all for books by the same author, and I'm concerned it may be a COI situation. He has also since removed the GA review from the article talk page (I am not sure if this is allowed) Seraphim System 17:44, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

No COI situation, sorry. I had an interest in one book by an author. That book was nominated for deletion. Then I researched more about that author. After my research I found their other books were notable, and I wrote articles on them. I do NOT appreciate baseless claims like this. And I do NOT appreciate a GA Reviewer making up Good Article Criteria that he personally feels articles-must-be-a-certain-age-old before they can be viewed as "stable". That's ludicrous and arbitrary and capricious. Sagecandor (talk) 17:47, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
@Seraphim System:Please, just back away. I'd appreciate it if you stop pursuing this and stop making false baseless claims about me. And stop making up non-existent GA Criteria like required age of Misplaced Pages articles. There is no such rule "only Misplaced Pages articles written over one year ago may be nominated for GA". Please stop. Sagecandor (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm concerned about COI because of what seems like a mildly promotional emphasis on the author in all the articles. I was also advised to directly ask admins for their read on a situation when I have a concern like this. Spotting COI is extremely convoluted and I am by no means an expert. I just want more experienced eyes on the situation- I have other concerns as well, and Ealdgyth is one of the best editors we have. Seraphim System 17:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
No promotional emphasis. Emphasis on NOT having articles get deleted. No more, no less. Sagecandor (talk) 18:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) (talk page watcher) Well; there's certainly no criteria that a GA has to be over X age since creation. Since this is four days old, and in that time, has been stable, I would agree that an inability to prove a negative is not a criterion :) and, likewise, I'm not convinced about the alleged COI- I'm not sure that's feasble on any available evidence. 'Fan' is the adjective we usually use in this situation, I suspect. However, Sagecandor the other issues Seraphim System raises about the article are, I think, reasonable, as matters of style, presentation and orthography. Incidentally I see this conversation is now taking place in- what, three locations?! That is highly unnecessary. — O Fortuna 18:03, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
Thank you O fortuna, had stability been the only issue I would have certainly waited for a second opinion, as I have done on all my reviews when I have been uncertain about something. I never said article age was a criteria. Due to the prose/grammar issues in the article, I simply advised him to allow the article some time to develop, and to have other editors work on it before renominating. I was trying to be polite. I also told him that many longstanding articles fail multiple rounds of review before passing GA, because I did not want him to become discouraged. This, he interpreted as "making up criteria." I do not feel that the "well-written" criteria was met. I will definitely defer to more experienced editors on COI, because I know its a complicated issue. I am also wondering if it is usual practice to remove the GA review from the talk page after the review closes? (I am asking so I will know to do this myself in the future if it is.) Seraphim System 18:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
The Good Article Criteria says: Stable. it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute No more, no less. The fact that Seraphim stubbornly refuses to acknowledge this, upon repeated correction, shows they should stop doing GA Reviews. Sagecandor (talk) 18:21, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm on the road, so I'll try to check this out later tonight, but it could be a while. For now, I tend to defer to OFM. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:54, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
OFM, LOL... Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi has wisely suggested I try to tone down my behavior a bit related to this. I can try to do that, and I sincerely hope that Seraphim can acknowledge he was wrong about WP:WIAGA Stability Criteria, there is no requirement for article age. Sagecandor (talk) 18:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I can continue with the run of good advice by advising against behaviour that can be construed as trolling other editors on their own talk. Noting that this can be up to and including usage of the 'thanks' tool. — O Fortuna 19:33, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm being sincere. I feel badly you regard it as trolling. I truly am thankful for your advice and input and your taking the time to explain things to me. Thank you. Sagecandor (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Henia is taking a break, not reading message, but not ignoring you

Hi Simon, Ealdgyth, Carol, and other editors,

Ealdgyth, is it a boy/girl? I just had my 4th grandson; it was not easy, and that's why we called him Chance.

I am taking a break from wiki, and therefore not reading more messages. I am writing draft of responses to the Holocaust after 1939 (Evian, Kindertransport…), before the war, and after the war (Varian Fry …). I am not ignoring you, but Wiki says that it’s good to take a break.

Simon, I thank you from all my heart for your patient mentorship. I decided to end it yesterday, because you, Carol, Ealdgyth, and others who voluntarily have been formatting my sources, or commented on the pertinence of my editing have helped a lot, but I feel that, because of my old brain, technology will remain a challenge. I also know from my personal experience that I learn better by doing and improving with guidance and discussion from many different editors.

I thank you in advance for your patience, ollaboration, and letting me edit, without “biting” me. Wiki states that newcomers who are experts on the subject are a positive addition in editing.

In good faith, I started to edit in a thoughtful way, using source, and attentively reading your guidelines that I printed, and wiki material. I explained the editing in the summary and the Talk of the article.

I didn’t delete “North Africa” “as a matter of principle,” but after I had checked Longerich, where it does not appear. I also found out that Kershaw wrote almost the same sentence, like the one in the article, with the incorrect inclusion of “North Africa” in the 11 millions, in p. 35 of Niewyk’s book, The Holocaust. I remembered that, because I thought that Kershaw maybe confused. I also copied from Yad Vashem and didn’t put quotations marks. I noticed that sometimes, not in the case of the long paragraphs of Yad Vashem, after 20 yrs of Holocaust study, I know sentences of scholars, by heart!

I read in Wiki: After one changes a page, others who read it can choose whether or not to further edit. When editors do not reach agreement by editing, discussion on the associated talk pages continues the process toward consensus.

I welcome your understanding of my shortcomings, your good faith collaboration, and your objections. I will listen to all of them attentively, “try to understand why, respond politely and assume good faith.”

I sincerely apologize for saying that the article is not neutral and acknowledge the hard work of other editors; I should have explained that it was what my 1000s and members of the public, who came to my Holocaust lectures, told me. That’s why, upon my retirement, I decided to be involved and collaborate in improving it.

I will “take the time and effort to explain why I think my suggestion(s) might be preferable, and “resolve disputes calmly, through civil discussion and consensus-building on relevant discussion pages. Please remember that we are all here for more or less the same reason . … Misplaced Pages is not about winning

1. “If someone disagrees with {me}, I will make sure {I} try to understand why! Listen to the others, and take the time and effort to explain why {I} think {my} suggestion(s) might be preferable.

2. assume good faith for as long as possible.

3. Take it slow (that’s why I didn’t answer immediately to your messages, and went zumba or did other things, as suggested by Wiki). There is no time limit for a discussion.

4. It is easy to misjudge other editors' moods and intentions, especially when disagreements or discussions are heated. {I will} Make {my} proposals and responses clear; listen carefully to opposing arguments and/or criticism, and be prepared to prove that {I am} listening actively - concentrate, understand, respond and then remember what is being said. … Because everyone has different memories, the speaker and the listener may attach different meanings to the same statement.

Ambushing occurs when one listens to someone else's argument for its weaknesses and ignore its strengths. if one finds that the other party understands, an atmosphere of cooperation can be created. Listeners need only restate, in their own language, their impression of the expression of the sender. ... Still, learning to do Active Listening well is a rather difficult task (I have told you that I am slow and thank you for your patience)

5. Assume the best about people whenever possible – this includes assuming that others are doing likewise.

6. I sincerely apologize, in good faith. 7. 8. I will take a break, and read your messages later – I am not ignoring you. Go get some fresh air, and go more to the gym.

Remember that Misplaced Pages is a hobby … Keep a good community spirit up and make good edits as a community.

I am not always right, and I know that I don’t know.

… Misplaced Pages is not about winning ” https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution

Thank you and have a good night! Henia Perlman (talk) 03:25, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Peter Dinklage

Hello, I'm in desperat need for someone to do a source review for Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Peter Dinklage/archive1 that I have nominated for FAC, If you have time, could you have a look? So far it has three supports and no source review as of today. - AffeL (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

  1. Longerich 2010, p. 307. sfn error: no target: CITEREFLongerich2010 (help)