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NPA

Pls refrain form calling Ian a bigot. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Who are you? Some kind of mod or something? He is a bigot, im afraid, as nothing else explains his hypocritical/lieing actions, behavior I just proved.

I am an administrator. And stop claiming bogus vandalism on the part of Bretonbanquet.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I have my terminology wrong, I guess. Upon reading the interpretation used here, indeed I do. I'm not sure how to describe such behavior than, perhaps annoying or illogical. So, mister moderator, has there been any rulings made on the usage of words such as "best" and "greatest" on things such as sports stars, as it seems to be the crux of the recent issue involving some F-1 racing legends.Ernham 04:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I try and be as dry as possible. If you go to my userpage you can see I have written a lot of sport bios and they are all very dry. Mainly just a chronological account and some explanation of some statistics. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

When I came across the section on schumacher, I actually thought it was fairly well done. But then I looked at some of the other legends of F-1 racing, and all of them had opening paragraphs that included a line similar to "considered by many the greatest driver blah, blah". So I added essentially that exact line to schumacher's first paragraph and was then attacked for it supposedly being "POV", yet these same people claim that the other legendary drivers, all of which are inferior to schumacher statistically, claims of "greatness" are NPOV! It's infuriating. Ernham 04:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have no problem with removing similar meaningless claims from other articles. -- Ian Dalziel 10:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Then why the hell did you rever my changes to 2-3 of the people where I merely clipped out the sentence that made those claims. Then even on your reversion you claim that the claim made in the article was actually NPOV! How quickly you change your tune after I busted you for being so "editorially dishonest".Ernham 10:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have made NO changes to your edits in those other articles. -- Ian Dalziel 10:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

POV

I'd just happened to see POV and so removed it and removed no content, but now you've reverted. "greatness" when applied to define a competitor of any sport tends to be subjective and debatable. On top of that, using superlative means the phrasing should bring it close to fact and backed by acceptance and evidence. Otherwise one is not doing justice to the article. From the discussion above, i gather that you're already in an edit war on this. Not planning to join in myself :-)

On this, yeah if you've seen POV in past drivers pages, the right thing to do is to remove it and not balance the situation by matching it for this is an encyclopedia rather than a set of tribute pages for f1 drivers :) In this regard i suppose replacing the sentence

By the numbers, he is the greatest, most successful Formula One driver ever

with

He is arguably the most successful Formula One driver ever.

would be more apt, as it'd be able to support the claim factually as well as highlight the magnitude of achievement.

You might not be entirely wrong when you argue

If you have the greatest record for just about everything, it makes you the greatest.

The problem however is the phrase greatest record. A more correct yet undiluted sentence would be

If you hold the record for just about everything, it makes you the most successful.

--Su30 08:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What a bunch of nonsense. "successful" is just as subjective, with need to be qualified, as "great". Stefi Graf made only like 20 million dollars for her whole tennis carrer. Now modern tennis players make 20 million by the time they have only 5-6 grandslams under their belt. Now when you say successful tennis player, should the answer be the modern player that won far fewer games/granslams but actual won more money? Total circular logic with this since everything would need to be narrowly defined that articls would be nothing but minutia. Sorry. The British and South Americans will just ahve to sulk about the fact the greatest F-1 driver to date was German. That's the real issue here. Nothing but a bunch of jingoist nonsense.

You are mixing two different English words, with very different meanings: successful and great. Schumacher is the most successfull (verifiable fact), but that alone doesn't make him the greatest (unverifiable). What is verifiable is the perception of people about a person, that's why in Juan Manuel Fangio it reads considered by many to be the greatest racing driver in Formula One history; that is also a verifiable fact. Mariano(t/c) 10:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

\

I've destroyed the argument with logic. You've whined at me with non-sequiturs. Come back with logic or go away. Successful and great are equally subjective and ambiguous.Ernham 10:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I trully don't follow you. You are the one saying that Schumacher is the best because he won the most championships and so on. This is not subjective, he won 7, the others less, he won more, he is more successful in winning F1 championships than any other driver. I really don't understand your logic nor what do you mean with "I've destroyed the argument with logic". Greatt, in the sence of being the best driver is subjective; you could ask yoursefl how yould Schumacher do with another car, how would have Fangio done in F1 had he born 40 years later, thus it is subjective. On the other hand people's perception can be sourced. Mariano(t/c) 10:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not explaining it again. It's very, very simple logic. You yourself just qualified successful in order to use it, you said "he is more successful***in winning***...." You understand now? We could go through and say he had the greatest amount of X, the greatest amount of Y, the greatest time in this, that, these and those. But that is the ridiculous minutia I was talking about. The reality is, he is in the #1 spot on almost every measurement that is used to judge performance in his sport. That is near universal greatnes, period. No one else has achieved such even in their own era. Schumacher has simply dominated the sport like no one ever has and probably never will. That's reality. I'm not dancing around the truth just to save the egos of some jingoist bigots, sorry.

Ernham, I dont want to delve into the pointless question of somebody being german/british. With the word meaning you've to see the context too.. atleast most people do. "successful" applied to a sportsperson is rather concrete. Your argument is based on your own (rather wrong) assumption of success being related with prize money.. Sporting success is measured in titles/wins. Fangio was the most successful until Schumacher passed him.. One say that there is no POV there, and mind you he might say that knowing the championships in 02, 04 can hardly count on merit even given the kind of peculiar sport f1 is.. But still he say that attribute to his sporting success.. If you dont take it, try saying michael was the most successful f1 driver and provide sufficient references.. You wont find ppl removing off those.. nyway without reason there is no collaboration.. and with the flaming i guess, an IP editor will be able to solve this better.. --Su30 10:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ernham, The following comments from Marianocecowski explains better

You are mixing two different English words, with very different meanings: successful and great. Schumacher is the most successfull (verifiable fact), but that alone doesn't make him the greatest (unverifiable). What is verifiable is the perception of people about a person, that's why in Juan Manuel Fangio it reads considered by many to be the greatest racing driver in Formula One history; that is also a verifiable fact. Mariano(t/c) 10:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

--Su30 10:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Notice

There are rules against reverting an article more than 3 times in 24 hours (see:WP:3RR). Violating such rules might lead to blocking. Also, please be civil in your edits and avoid personal attacks. Mariano(t/c) 10:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, we need an admin/moderator to deal with this then. Limiting reversion just lets someone use multiple ISPs to revert all day long. A very poor choice of rules IMO.

Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. -- Ian Dalziel 11:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. And I plan to. I don't have a lot of patience when it comes to dealing with people that will not debate/discuss rationally and logically. It is unlike me to resolve to ad hominem, but that s the ony place i could go for a reason that some people would be so dishonest and hypocritical in their attempts to defame and/or diminish someone else only to build up their own ego in some way, by proxy or through a fellowcountry man or whatnot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Please, stop being agressive in your answers, using words such as dishonest and hypocritical can be considered a personal attack, specially when we are trying to be compehensive with you. Have you considered you might not be right if more than one user is trying to reason with you? Mariano(t/c) 11:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Statetments are not persons; de facto, they can never be "personally" attacked. I tire of these whiny exchanges. Good-bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Reported on WP:AN/3RR. -- Ian Dalziel 13:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You sound like a little child. Why don't you switch back to your other IP(s) and revert my revert again? Unlike you, I'm not resolving dishonesty and foul play. You and your ilk are in the wrong, and I'm not going to put up with bigotry and intellectual dishonesty if I have any say in it.

I have never made any edits other than under my own User Id. If you are interested in intellectual honesty why won't you discuss your edits instead of resorting to personal abuse? -- Ian Dalziel 13:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

ahhh, yes. I'm going to believe the guy who claims that calling Fangio and several other F-1 racing legends as "the greatest" is NPOV, but doing the same for Schumacher, the only guy that has been PROVEN to be the greatest driver, is somehow POV. Get your ridiculous shenanigans out of here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

As I stated above : "I have no problem with removing similar meaningless claims from other articles". I think any statement that one driver is greater than another of a different era is pointless cruft. I do think "considered by many" is more acceptable than presenting it as a statement of fact, but I'd sooner see all the articles without any such assertion. Please quote any such "quote" from me? These accusations are not only deeply offensive, but you seem to be making them up as you go along. -- Ian Dalziel 13:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, one of the removals of 'greatest' (12:56 today) came from me (user:4u1e) not from Ian. I'm editing from someone else's terminal at present, so I can't log in (my password is stored elsewhere). My logic is the same as everyone else's - 'success' is measurable in concrete achievements (wins, points), 'greatness' includes 'influence' 'legacy', 'fame' and many other such nebulous concepts. Your observation that several other drivers' articles say that they are 'greatest' (Fangio, Senna are I guess the major candidates) rather undermines the argument that anyone can be declare unequivocally 'greatest'. Cheers. 4u1e

Can you succeed at being great at something? Indeed. Uh-oh. Major logic complication here. The problem results from the both being eaully ambiguous and dependant on being qualified to be completely understood and debated. In this case, we are looking at "the greatest driver". Using statistics and the standard measures by which greatness is gauged in F-1, it become rather elementary in mathematically proving who the greatest is. it's been done, at least twice now: BBC sports and christopher Hilton(well-known biographer of racing legends). The answer was the same for both: Schumacher. The reality is, though, you guys just don't like the answer.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Please sign your answers. You seam not to understand the difference between success and greatness; perhaps that's the root of the hole problem. Nobody denies that Schumacher is the most successful F1 driver, that is a fact. Saying that he is the greatest is subjective. Finally, saying that people consider a driver to be the best is not subjective if it can be sourced, in the best case with a general poll or equivalent. Mariano(t/c) 13:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What are "the standard measures by which greatness is gauged in F-1"? I don't believe there is any such thing - many consider Stirling Moss, who never won a championship, to be the greatest ever. -- Ian Dalziel 14:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If you don't know the standard measures by which drivers are gauged in F-1 racing, what the hell are you even doing editing F-1 related wikies?? Ridiculous. essentially no one thinks Stirling was the greatest ever, not even the biased as always English public. Even this BBC poll shows it(Schumacher first, Senna second, just like every poll I've ever seen on the matter): http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3168114.stm?display=1

Ernham 14:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Standard measures by which *greatness* is gauged? I don't think so. -- Ian Dalziel 14:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Fastest laps, pole positions, passing ability, wind/rain driving ability, wins/placing, and many more. Michael Jordan is agreed by most to have been the greatest basketball player of his era, but he was not the best three point shorter, nor the best passer or shot blocker. But he was sitll the greatest. In the case of Schumacher, he dominates almost every stat there is. Period. The fans(polls) say Schumacher was/is the best and tbe statistics back them up. It doesn't get any more solid of a lock on being called the "greatest" than that. Now stop with your nonesense, all of you. Grow up. Ernham 14:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You still don't get the point. We are not trying to define who is the best pilot, that would be subjective. Yet it is undeniable that some people consider Fangio as the greatest, while others consider Senna, and some others Schumacher. Mariano(t/c) 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked

I have blocked you for 24 hours for personal attacks and going over the 3 revert rule as well as general edit warring. When you return please discuss any proposed changes on the relevant talk pages in a calm and civil manner. Thank you. JoshuaZ 15:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

there is no speaking in a civil manner with people that have no understanding of basic logic and proceed to repeatedly lie and be bigots. Nice to see you are so even handed, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Michael Schumacher

You cannot say Michael Schumacher is solely responsible for turning Ferrari around. I've provided a reference but it shouldn't be needed. I'm happy to say that Ferrari couldn't have done it without Schumacher but any reasonable person would admit that its rediculous to say that without Brawn's tactical brain and Byrne's design Schumacher could have been so successful. Just because its a Schumacher article doesn't mean you can't mention this important fact. Mark83 14:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The statement that "schumacher is often credited with turning ferrari around" does not at all insinuate that Schumacher was the sole reason for ferrari turning into a winning team. I'm sorry you have a problem with reality and do not understand English, logic, and/or reality. Please stop your vandalization of the Schumacher wiki.

Yes it does. Your personal attacks and the other conversations on your talk page speak volumes about your credibility. Mark83 14:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I make no personal attacks, only logically assumptions. And I won't tolerate the vanadlism of living persons. Ernham 14:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

To prove my grasp of English, which you argued I don't understand - The above should read "logical assumptions" and "vandalism". "Most winning" is bad grammar and I cannot revert it due to the 3RR (I believe you're familiar with it)! What exactly is your objection to saying that as well as Schumacher being an excellent driver Ferrari's success was down to his team as well, particularly Brawn's pit wall strategy and the design of the car. As impressive a man as he is I don't think he has a degree in engineering. I did exactly what is expected of a good editor, I provided a statement, with a reference and you reverted to your own version simply out of intransigence. Mark83 14:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

If you ahd introduced your "spin" on the matter before i fixed the ridiculous skeleton of a sub-section that was there previously, then perhaps I'd be less adversarial. But your attmpt currently seems to be little more than to water down Schuamcher's accomplishments, as opposed to any attempt to make the wiki better or what have you. In reality, the wiki is about schuamcher and the statement I said is true. Your statement about the others, especially about todt is also true, but it belongs in the wikis for each of those individuals. Again, this is michael schumacher's wiki. Your addition comes ever so close to the line of superfluity in a wiki that already goes to great lengths to diminsh Schuamcher's accomplishments. and yes, *I* describe your edits as vandalism because you have a record continuing to deface the wiki of a living person, being completely ignorant of the evolution of the article and merely in an attempt to defame schumacher through various means.(stop correcting your damn spelling mistakes so i can respond, too. Yes, I know you can't spell very well.) Ernham 15:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't correct a spelling mistake, I added another sentence to my comment. There is nothing wrong with my spelling. There is something wrong with you losing your temper and continuing personal attacks. Mark83 15:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

in any event, I'm done talking with you on my talk page. This should have been brought up on the Schumacher page. Present your arguemts there formally.Ernham 15:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You wrote "I actually don't mind this version, but "one of" needs to go" - then why did you waste both our time by arguing? Mark83 15:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Something called compromise. Get out of my talk page alreadyErnham 16:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you know the meaning of the word compromise. You stubbornly reverted for over two hours and it was only when a third party agreed with me that you suddenly "compromised". You went from describing my contribution as "close to the line of superfluity" to "I actually don't mind this version". Mark83 20:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Intelligence Quotient

Fine, but you will see that what you count as my first revert is in fact an edit. And you have done just as many, so if I get my editing rights revoked for some time, so will you. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.--Ramdrake 18:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)