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Revision as of 00:21, 1 October 2006

An archive of the naming discussion can be found at Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name. The result of the discussion, including two polls, is for it to be called Trentino-South Tyrol. This article should not be moved to another name.

Alcide de Gasperi/Reichstag in Vienna

I partly reverted changes by 87.4.184.58, as no reason was given for changing this part, and I saw no reason for it to be changed. A part of it needed to be documented, namely Alcide De Gasperi's affirmation that most of Trentino-South Tyrol population didn't want to join Italy. For this reason I did not restor this section. --Adriano 17:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I saw that someone had erased a couple of sentences, but I did not revert. Indeed, as you stated above, I noted that those lines are not completely reliable. Even the part you restored has some problems (I quote):

The large Italian minority agitated for unification with Italy, making the issue a key priority for the irredentist movement in Italian politics. Some say that in reality, aside from certain political circles based in Trento, the vast majority of the population never really warmed up to the idea of joining the newly created Italian Kingdom, as their alleagence lays with the Habsburg Empire.. First, irredentism concerned only the Trent area, where italian people were/are a very large majority. Bolzano/Bozen was annexed after WWI becuase of Austria defeat, but it was not considered italian even by irredentists. Secondly, note that this article (as many others) provides no reference. Therefore, statements as like Some say, certain political circles, never really warmed up do not really sound encyclopedic at all. Moreover, both in Austria and Italy, before WWII only a few people were interested in politics. So, the vast majority of population warmed up for nothing at all in that years. I think that irredentism concerning Trent was widespread between italian people interested in politics (upper middle class etc), and most of the historians agree with me (well, actually, I agree with them :) ). Anyway, this can be a disputed issue, and probably googling around you can find sites supporting both the opinions. So, my purpose is:

• Let's fix the first sentence, maybe saying that annexing Trentino (not South Tyrol) was considered the final step for italian unification, since Trentino was/is an italian region.
• Let's erase the second sentence (Some say...)
• Let's try to add some undisputed reference. I have some books that should fit, but unfortunately I am abroad, and I will not be back home before August.

Sorry for the long comment, but this article seems to warm up the vast majority of wikipedians, so I want to be cautious. gala.martin (what?) 21:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gala.martin

You are right in using caution on this point... Unfortunately I am not too strong on that historical issue, and I cannot help much in verifying these assertions. Many other Wikipedians could help though, by searching evidense on the above-mentioned issue...

Until no consensus is reached, I think it makes sense to erase these sentences.

--Adriano 15:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

To put into a more fact-based perspective the political stance of the majority of the Tridentine population, it could be useful to point out that as the electoral base enlarged, Trentino sent to Vienna six Catholics, the others being a Socialist (Battisti) and a Liberal. Notice they all were well integrated within the Austrian parties. And the catholics’ stance, obviously spearheaded by Degasperi, was that Trentino was fine as long as its Italian cultural identity wasn’t in danger. Controversy really was the administrative situation of Trentino within Austria: a punitive representation within the Tyrolean parliament meant Trentino was gravely disadvantaged in it (after 1861, 21 representatives on 68), thus the objective was to be released from it. Notice this had been a constant in Tridentine politics ever since the annexation to Austria (I’m going from memory now, but I believe that in the first half of the XIX century Trentino had in Innsbruck 7 representatives out of 51), asking for an independent land or, back then, for unity with Lombardy-Venetia. In fact, in Kremsier this was granted, but subsequently taken back with a second vote because of German Tyrolean heavy pressure.
Primary sources on Degasperi’s early wartime declarations are ambassador in Rome count Macchio’s report to Berchtold, 6-X-1914, quoted more or less in any book detailing the topic, and in Friedrich Funder’s “Vom Gestern ins Heute”.
Ahem. Bottom line: the population before the first world war supported a pragmatic stance as held firmly by Degasperi, Conci and the other Christian Socials of Trentino. However, to see how the effect of WWI administration changed much of that, I direct you to this fundamental source on Degasperi: this page has both the Italian version and reproductions of the Vienna parliament “Stenographische Protokolle” of a dramatic speech by Degasperi in 1918. Final note: “making the issue a key priority for the irredentist movement in Italian politics” is really maladroit, considering that the very essence of irredentism was to reclaim all territories inhabited by Italians to Italy. Kind of suggesting that, say, “the Indonesian government's aim is to govern Indonesia” :) Best, --Tridentinus 09:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tridentinus,

I do not want to cause another endless discussion. But, for clarity's sake, when you talk about Trentino, do you mean the Province of Trento or the whole Trentino South-Tyrol? Regards.--Adriano 01:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for not having been precise: of course I was talking about Trentino only. As, in fact, was Degasperi, who was questioned by Macchio (and, incidentally, Italian minister Sonnino around the same time; see Il giovane De Gasperi/Der junge De Gasperi, a bilingual book published in 2004 by the Regional Council of Trentino-South Tyrol) about the loyalties of the Tridentine people. Also, I don't want to create a discussion, I was merely answering a question. No polemic intent. Peace, --Tridentinus 09:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Peace!--Adriano 11:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Edit-block for IP-Adresses

I bocked IP-edits temporarely since some IP-Editors don't respect edits by other people. Sorry for that. I hope we can unprotect the page again soon. (When the anonym people promise to stop vandalising).

If you have something to say, add your comment at the END of a discussion.

Signing your comment is very much appreciated.

If you change comments of other people, that is vandalism in Misplaced Pages. Please stop doing this, thanks. Fantasy 10:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a question: why doesn't wikipedia simply block the possibility to edit articles by non registered users? I once read that it would soon be so... --Adriano 15:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Quite simple: Most anonymous edits are very valuable edits. Only a view people try to hide their bad deeds. I was also not able to believe it, but just read the IP edits in recent changes, and you will see, we would loose many many good things ;-) Fantasy 15:17, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation...--Adriano 15:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Mainly, editing from unregistered users is wikipedia. If you force people to join the project, that's not wiki anymore. Registration is available in order to improve coordination, but wild contributions are the core of the project (even if most of edits are done by registered users). --gala.martin (what?) 14:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree on this point. My impression is only that most of vandalism is carried out by non registered users... --Adriano 11:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Should we protect the page against anonymous users and new ones in that case? Gryffindor 21:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Dunno. Seems that all this vandalism is calming down now... --Adriano 16:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I unprotected this page now again, it should never be a long-term blocking, just a tool to calm down extremists and people who have problems.

It seems there is someone who really has problems but I don't want to block Misplaced Pages for flaming people like this one. If you see fascist accusations somewhere about someone, just delete it, this is not the way to work in Misplaced Pages. We use arguments.

I look forward to read also good anonym contributions :-) Fantasy 18:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

italyzone.it spam link?

Please note: someone (signing with "Enrico 69") has insisted in inserting a link - namely italyzone.it - on the Trentino-South Tyrol page - even after that a registered user had removed it. Not being a big expert in Misplaced Pages rules, I thought to remove it once more, opening a discussion on whether this is spam or not. --Adriano 07:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

should be moved

This page should be moved to either: 1) Trentino-Alto Adige or 2) Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. I will be asked to read the archives, and I have. A user Gryfindor has pushed for South Tyrol with an obsession, originally moving the page without consensus. If you simply use the Google Test, you will find that Trentino-Alto Adige is the name used in English. I've seen this page has been cleaned up a lot though, taking out the strong German POV.