Revision as of 15:53, 4 October 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

NPOV language

This is obviously an article where NPOV language will be important to maintain. I suggest that saying that "PLANS declined to present" any further case is slanted; it implies that they had something left to present. Actually, they had no evidence or witnesses left which they legally could have presented. It would not be inaccurate to say that they had no case left. I've tried to find neutral language; they presented no further case.Hgilbert 19:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you be in any position to know if they had any witnesses or evidence to legally present? Does PLANS make their legal strategy available to you? The case is in appeals court.--Pete K 23:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Source on addition?

Hi Lumos3, what is the source for you addition of the statement in the Criticism section that the editor at DMOZ, that I mention at http://www.americans4waldorf.org/History.html in 2001 not only removed PLANS from the DMOZ Learning_Theories/Waldorf category, but also entered it in the Opposing Views: Esoteric and Occult category at that specific time instead? --Thebee 22:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This can be verified by looking searching for PLANS on DMOZ Lumos3 20:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The search does not verify your statement. It only tells that PLANS is in the the Opposing Views: Esoteric and Occult category at present and not in the Learning_Theories/Waldorf, not that it was moved from the latter to the former at the time I mention at http://www.americans4waldorf.org/History.html I therefore still wonder what the source is for your statement that this was the case? --Thebee 21:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Lumos3, you have once again, without any empirical support for this, written that DMOZ "reclassified" the WC "in such a category as Society: Religion and Spirituality: Opposing Views: Esoteric and Occult.", implying that it was moved there from the Waldorf Theory category. But it was not moved from the Waldorf category to the Opposing Views category, as you incorrectly have written also once before, without any empirical basis for this. The Meta Editor wrote that it belonged there. But it already WAS in the "Opposing Views: Esoteric and Occult" category, that contains all sorts of strange anti-groups, when it was deleted in the "Waldorf Theory" category.

I repeat search engine claims can be verified by any reader by conducting searches themselves. Lumos3 10:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The Meta Editor wrote as analogical argument about the problem, after having looked at the WC site, that if a site writes that Steiner sacrificed goats on Fridays, it did not belong in the Waldorf theory category and deleted it. It was quite a proper description of the WC group and site. This is a judgment by the Meta Editor, and it was deleted in the Waldorf theory category because of this judgment.

What you write is also written as a general introduction to the section. But it does not hold for the other two cases mentioned, that did not "re-classify" the WC site, as you write. Altavista even deleted it completely from its web index, though it later has turned up again through its automatic indexing process, and refused completely to publish any ads for searches on "Waldorf", Waldorf education" and "Rudolf Steiner", just to get rid of the ads for PLANS, after Altavista had informed Overture that it did not want to get the ads for the WC from Overture, and Overture had cancelled the WC account, but the WC once again had set up the account.

That's not "re-classification". It's a strong judgment against the WC, and telling that Altavista did not want to have ANYTHING to with the site. I have therefore corrected your "Classification" in the header into the proper description in general of the section it is a header for: "Judgement by large web portals". Based on this, I will correct the section and header. --Thebee 08:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this whole section as it has nothing to do with the PLANS lawsuit. And, BTW, according to Dan Dugan, PLANS is able to advertise at these sites anyway - so the statements or, more importantly, the IMPLICATIONS made above are false. Again, what "category" a search engine places a particular group in is of little or no significance whatsoever - and I don't believe anyone here is able to assert WHY such actions were taken by search engines - if indeed they were. The whole point is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the issue here, which is the PLANS organization and the LAWSUIT they have filed. PLANS, if you look at their mission statement, is interested in the issue of separation of church and state, not whether or not someone searching for Steiner on Altavista can find them. Can we please focus the article on the actual topic here? --Pete K 22:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Actual Appeal or Article about Appeal

Hi again, Lumos3. 16:34, 8 July 2006 (regrettably missing to log in first), I replaced a link to a Press Release by PLANS, telling it was going to appeal, with a link to the appeal itself. Then, 13:54, 10 July 2006, I removed a link to an article about the -- when the link to the article was put in -- coming appeal, as reference, telling that the appeal would be coming, as the article contained false information about the trial, as documented by the transcript of the trial, and I already had added a link to the full appeal. I also specified the reason for removing the partially untruthful and now unnecessary reference at the history page (Removal of link to article, contradicted by the transcript of the trial, as reference).

21:30, 11 July you have added a comment on the appeal and use the article as reference again, telling that PLANS has announced its intention to appeal, before the section on the Court case, that tells that PLANS has lost its case, and that it already has appealed. Isn't that out of place? The appeal is properly described after the description of the loss by PLANS of its case with a link to the already filed full appeal, and the article still contains false info on the trial, as documented by the trial transcript. --Thebee 23:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Objection

Objection by PLANS, Inc.

The article is a highly biased flame at PLANS, Inc. by Sune Nordwall, a long-time defender of Waldorf education and Anthroposophy against PLANS' critical position on those topics.

Misplaced Pages has a problem. There are no sources of unbiased information about Waldorf and Anthroposophy. It is an acrimonious and polarized dispute. PLANS claims that Anthroposophy is a cult-like religious sect, and that Waldorf education indoctrinates students in the tenets of the sect unbeknownst to their parents. Supporters of Anthroposophy claim that PLANS is a hate group.

One might hope for a sociologist not involved in the dispute to be appointed a "special master" to edit the article. But there are problems there, too. Sociologists concerned with new religious movements are also divided into two camps, those who describe all movements objectively and discount the harm of cult-like groups, and those who feel a moral obligation to inform the public about abusive groups.

What to do?

-Dan Dugan, Secretary, PLANS, Inc. --Secretrary1 18:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please explain what you find problematic; most of what is there has citations to support it. Or suggest additional information to balance anything that may be true but doesn't present the whole picture. PLANS is clearly an "anti-" group; it has no positive aims, only the negative aim of "countering" Waldorf and anthroposophy. If you look, Dan, at PLANS' home page, you'll see it is chiefly a highly personal, emotional diatribe. This is, unfortunately, more typical of hate groups than of sociological investigations. If the tone of the organization's work were to change to one of collected, balanced investigation and presentation, this would allow the article to say that this is what the group is doing.

But please expand on where you find the article to be inaccurate or one-sided. Careful about places backed up by citations; it is usually better to add balancing material here than to strike factual, evidence-based statements. Hgilbert 07:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hgilbert is a Waldorf teacher, a devotee of the Steiner cult. Discussion of citations is a smoke screen; the cited sources are Anthroposophical pages, not neutral.

-Dan Dugan, Secretary, PLANS, Inc.

HGilbert writes above: "PLANS is clearly an "anti-" group; it has no positive aims, only the negative aim of "countering" Waldorf and anthroposophy." It's nice of Mr. Gilbert to describe for us what is "negative" and what is "positive". Some people would find it "negative" that a religious group hides their intentions and religious underpinnings while recruiting prospective parents into their schools - schools that then promote those religious views to the children without the parent's knowledge or consent. Some people would find it "positive" that a group stands up to this kind of deception and even people WITHIN the Waldorf movement (Eugene Schwartz - master Waldorf teacher for example) find that PLANS performs in a "positive" way. The only "negativity" here is from Waldorf supporters. --Pete K 00:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

PLANS description

The description of PLANS must conform to the way it describes itself. The criticism sections of this article are extensive and there is no need for slanting of the main description. Lumos3 10:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The description of PLANS must conform to its actual nature; it has no one self-description. I have rewritten the introduction, trying to accurately portray what it is doing on the web-site and in the world in a NPOV way (with references to PLANS web pages). The mission statement should be included in full (I have added this), but an organization is not its mission statement. Hgilbert 11:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I also found the description troubling. Are we going to have the same "hate group" discussion here that we had on the Waldorf page? The term "hate group" was retracted by Sune on the Waldorf page and I would hope he would show the same wisdom and retract it here. Misplaced Pages is not a place for vendettas. --Pete K 23:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the "hate group" slander needs to go. The discussion has already happened at the Waldorf education page and does not need to be repeated here. There are no non-anthroposophical sources describing PLANS as a hate group, and there are no documented activities or publications of this organization that resemble "hate." When the people calling PLANS a "hate group" are asked for a non-anthroposophical source documentating this claim, or evidence of "hate group" activity, they fall silent. They have one little story they like to tell, called "PLANS alleges witchcraft," and it's completely inaccurate (as well as so bizarre and confused it's not even readable). Their version of this ridiculous incident is widely debunked, but when a rebuttal is published, they are silent. Their "sources" for the "hate group" nonsense lead in circles - it is a small handful of individuals quoting each other.

If, however, people feel a need to repeat the discussion here, several of us are ready, willing and able. Most of it is on the Waldorf education page and can easily be pasted in over here as well.

A better alternative is to delete this goofy article. Who is going go look up the organization "PLANS" on wikipedia? No offense to PLANS, but they are not well known enough or culturally significant enough to warrant an article on wikipedia. This is merely another volley in a propaganda war. Waldorf defenders want to be able to have another "source" to quote as a bogus "reference" showing "Some people say PLANS is a hate group." The more such references they can spread around online, the more people they can fool, who it is hoped will not look closer at the issues. If Misplaced Pages will allow the publication of this nonsense, it is a real coup for them. It is then up to critics to point out, over and over, that all these accusations are an inside job, coming from the same people and for the same self-interested purposes.

There are 2 options: 1) Save everybody's time, and simply remove this bogus article; quit pretending such a thing belongs on Misplaced Pages in the first place. 2) Expect the same tedious and time-wasting discussion we have had for many hours at the page for the Waldorf article, to be repeated here. We can keep it up as long as you can.DianaW 16:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The final sentence in the introduction does not say that PLANS is a hate group.

I understand, Sune. It says *some people say* that PLANS is a hate group. It refers to your own web site, so those some people would be, um, YOU. You want to be able to cite the wiki entry elsewhere - like maybe on your own web site? as "documentation" that "some people say" PLANS is a hate group. This is like falling down a rabbit hole.

It says very specifically:

"Because of the number and type of negative allegations about Waldorf education and anthroposophy supported, cultivated, and published by PLANS , one support group of Waldorf education, Americans for Waldorf Education, describes it as a group that uses argumentation characteristic of hate groups."

The referred to actions, assertions, and argumentation are described by http://www.americans4waldorf.org/Myths.html and summarized in an overview of the issue, found here, based on documentation in the form of published Newspaper articles in 1997, a number of published postings in the the archives of Mr. Dugan's mailing list at his site through about ten years, a published Press Release by PJI in 1999, a deposition by Dan Dugan in 1999, the application by PJI to ADF, published by Mr. Dugan at his WC-site, publicly available legal documentation, a public policy statement on immunization by ECSWE, published research on Waldorf pupils, postings by a Mr. Staudenmaier, found in the Topica archives, published lectures by R.S., found on the net, published articles by P.S., found at the WC-site, a paragraph by paragraph analysis by a Daniel Hindes of Mr. Staudenmaier's first solo paper on anthroposophy, and published research on Waldorf pupils, extensively referenced in the summary.

That PLANS publishes argumentation characteristic of hate groups in their early stages of development, as described and documented in the summarizing overview, is well documented. So is the fact, that AWE, based on what is described in the summarizing overview, linked to above, describes PLANS as a group that at its site publishes argumentation characteristic of hate groups.

The final sentence in the introduction describes this well documented situation, that refers to point three in the arumentation published by PLANS described here: http://www.thebee.se/comments/plans1.html#Summarizing_comments --Thebee 17:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you are busted, Sune. You have replied to a request for documentation, with a bunch of sleaze. I am sorry to be rude but this is sleaze. There aren't any "newspaper articles from 1997" that report "hate" actions or speech from PLANS - or you'd have cited them. Are we to believe you are holding this material secret? You'd quote it *in* the article if it existed. You'd have given it when we had this same discussion one week ago about the Waldorf article. Since last week, you've discovered newspaper articles from 1997 that back up your claim? There aren't any postings from Peter Staudenmaier that contain hate speech - or you'd be quoting them in a New York minute. The postings directed *to* Peter Staudenmaier can get pretty abusive, but he never responds in kind. I think he once called you a moron. What is this, kindergarten? This "hate group" gig is up. We could go through the bogus claims above piece by piece but it is not worth your time or mine. The "published press release by PJI," the deposition by Dan D., etc., mysterious "published postings" in the critics archives, etc. - not one single word in any of them shows "hate group" actions or words. If they did, you'd have quoted it all over the Internet.

Then it descends into confusion as usual. Maybe you should take this a bit slower. "Published articles by R.S." actually appears in your list of evidence that PLANS is a hate group. Um - PLANS didn't exist while Rudolf Steiner was alive, Sune, so I don't think any of his articles mention PLANS. (To tell you the truth, for all my complaints about Steiner, my guess is he would be embarrassed by your antics.) And I'm sure others are extremely curious as to how a "a public policy statement on immunization by ECSWE" can possibly show PLANS to be a hate group. Do you expect people to believe the policy statement on immunization even *mentions* PLANS?

And don't you realize your rantings are absolutely unintelligible to anyone not already familiar with these issues? What Sune is probably talking about, regarding immunization, is discussion on the PLANS' list about the fact that vaccination is often discouraged in Waldorf schools, for spiritual reasons, and critics request that parents be informed of these spiritual philosophy behind this. Vaccination is not discouraged in anthroposophy because of concern about vaccine safety or reactions to vaccine or questions about the effectiveness of vaccines, for example, but because childhood diseases are considered karmic - Steiner wrote explicitly on the karmic causes of specific diseases - and the childhood diseases are opportunities for the child's spiritual development. This is of course fine with parents who share this philosophy; it should simply be made clear for parents first that anthroposophical doctrines determine most of what goes on in the school. This is the reason an organization like PLANS exists, and the reason that anthroposophists work so hard to find ways to shush 'em up. Similarly there has been discussion at critics, for instance, of whether the anthroposophical understanding of karma requires parents or teachers to refrain from intervening in accidents, illnesses, injuries, fights on the playground etc. The retort to this sort of discussion is unfortunately frequently not to engage the claims but to find clever new ways to put an end to the whole discussion. Hence this "PLANS is a hate group" propaganda war. There's no "hate speech" on either side, this is a long-running ideological dispute.

Sune, it will not be possible to document the "hate group" claim without reference to your own deranged writings and this will not cut it in an encyclopedia. Salvage some of your credibility and take this ludicrous article down - that would enable this page to be destroyed, I assume, and would help your cause.

"Secret action group"? The "secret action group" even has its own heading. Critics have a secret action group! Again if the article does remains I would like this particular piece of childishness to remain, as it says a lot.

Oh - and why don't you add the part about how Diana Winters "threatened" you? That also tells the whole story. I've never threatened anybody in my whole life and it should make clear what you all mean by "hate group." PLANS is a "hate group" and Diana Winters "threatened" Sune Nordwall.DianaW 12:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That PLANS publishes argumentation characteristic of hate groups in their early stages of development, as described and documented in the summarizing overview, is well documented.

Oh boy! If this weren't so serious and such a sinister accusation, what a hoot this would be. PLANS is in the "early stages" of becoming a hate group! I love it!

So is the fact, that AWE, based on what is described in the summarizing overview, linked to above, describes PLANS as a group that at its site publishes argumentation characteristic of hate groups.

It is certainly not in dispute that AWE thinks PLANS is a hate group. Don't keep embarrassing yourself. We all acknowledge that you have documented that "AWE says so." The problem for intellectual honesty is that YOU, and a couple of your friends, are AWE. Continuing to insist that "AWE has documented it" didn't work on the Waldorf page and isn't going to work here.

ACTUAL evidence that PLANS is a hate group, Sune. Not evidence that some people disagree with ECSWE's immunization policy or with Steiner's views on karma or with Peter Staudenmaier's interpretation of Steiner's racial doctrines. Actual evidence that PLANS is a hate group, or the claim cannot stand on Misplaced Pages. When you are in a hole you should stop digging. End the embarrassment you are causing to anthroposophy here. Agree to delete the article or to back off the unsupported false accusations against critics of anthroposophy. Wasn't the discussion of who has custody of their children embarrassing enough? Don't you think people know I have never threatened you? You are smearing anthroposophy.DianaW 12:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The final sentence in the introduction describes this well documented situation, that refers to point three in the arumentation published by PLANS described here: http://www.thebee.se/comments/plans1.html#Summarizing_comments --Thebee 17:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Erm, yes www.thebee.se "describes" this situation. For those who don't know, thebee.se, americans4waldorfeducation.org, and waldorfanswers.com are all the same people. "Americans" for Waldorf Education is a virtual clone of Waldorfanswers; Sune isn't American so his friends created a sort of American sister site, using most of the same material. AWE for short, I guess to resonate with "shock and awe" and appeal to Americans?DianaW 12:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's important for people to know exactly who AWE are. I've added this to the article. --Pete K 19:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the "hate group" reference. Since one of the AWE wrote practically this entire article, there's no need for the continual slamming of PLANS with these typse of characterizations. AWE are 5 people who are interested in discrediting critics of Waldorf. Their characterizations about a "hate group" just reflects poorly on them anyway. I'll keep checking back here to delete it when they put it back up. --Pete K 16:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The article on PLANS should be deleted

I tagged the article on PLANS for swift deletion on the grounds that it is an attack. The tag was removed within half an hour.

Dan Dugan, Secretary, PLANS, Inc. 17:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV - In support of Plans

The section "In Support of PLANS" appears to me to breach Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#The neutral point of view - specifically The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. This section as it stands presently appears to assert PLANS views. It needs some modification to make it encyclopaedic. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox.--Arktos 09:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have edited this section to what I believe is an NPOV that describes PLANS' position and the reason for the lawsuit. If this still doesn't meet NPOV guidelines, please let me know. I'm not removing the POV marker at this time. I would ask that if the administrators believe the NPOV has been accomplished, would they please remove the marker? --Pete K 22:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Secret anti-Waldorf action group

I have cut the following statement that seems to have no support other than the existence of a private Yahoo group.

"In February 2004, a special secret mailing group was founded for approximately 20 people for discussion of actions against Waldorf education . It led to a marked decrease in in the number of postings on the public, but confidential mailing list of the President and Vice-President of PLANS."

Unless one of the members of this "secret group" posted this, and can report on its contents, I don't see how this can be anything more than speculation. --Pete K 02:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The link to the group at Yahoo documents its existence. That it is a secret group is documented by searching at its name at http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=Survivors-action&sc=-1&sg=51&ss=1 showing that it is not listed, that it, that it is a secret group. One participant of the group informed me about it at one time, probably by mistake. Do you know about its existence and nature?

That it led to a marked decrease of the number of postings on the WSO list is documented by the page of both groups.

No such thing is documented by number of postings anywhere. That is completely preposterous. There will not be a way for you to show this, and it is irrelevant to anything anyone reading this article to learn what this organization is, could possibly be interested in. Who in their right mind cares about the number of postings an organization's mailing list, or cares that if another list was started, there were more or less postings on some other list? DianaW 02:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

All of this is well documented and verifiable.

Not one word of what you wrote above is verifiable. Not one word. DianaW 02:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Is that another rave?

Insulting and baiting me here is not going to work, Sune. The mention of a "secret action group" is dead and gone, and you can't revive it, because you have no evidence it is connected to PLANS, which it isn't, and if it were, it is not useful information to anyone in any way. It is a MAILING LIST for g'd sake.

Nothing is to be gained by posting a link to it, anyway, as it is private, no information as to the content of the discussion is available by following the link to the page you gave. Like any private yahoo group, you learn little about it from its home page, where it just says "Click here to join." This is not an acceptable way to "document" something at wikipedia - some people somewhere are talking about it on yahoo?

Here's a good example - a tutoring agency I work for also has a "private" mailing list - for the tutors who work for them, about 15 people. You can't read that discussion either, and if you look it up in the yahoo directory, there's no information on it. Shall I write an article about this small agency, and suggest they are up to something evil because they have a "secret action group," where we talk - super hush hush - about phonics and student motivational strategies?

Most would probably consider a direct link to the page on the group at Yahoo, telling about it and when it was founded to be a proof that the group exists and at what time it was founded.

Go for it: prove it has any relation to PLANS. Proving "that a group exists" and "what time it was founded" is of no interest to anyone, nor is your "telling about it."

As you tell below, you also confirm this, and in addition tell that you are one of the owners and moderators of the group.

If anyone reading this is interested in the group, they can contact me and learn more. It is not a "secret," Sune. It is a private mailing list. This is not a CIA plot. You have not been handed hot new information learning that I'm one of the owner/moderators of a yahoo group. (Nobody really moderates it anyway.)

Most would probably also consider the search http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=Survivors-action&sc=-1&sg=51&ss=1 telling that it is not listed at yahoo, to tell that the group is a secret group, not visible to others than those who already know about it.

Never been on a private email list, yourself? The ones that are not listed in any directory are private. That's how it works.

A fourth statement that you seem to deny is true is that one of the participants of the group at one time, probably by mistake, informed me about its existence. That was you, remember?

No, I don't remember telling you anything about this group. Stop with this "you seem to deny" like I'm "denying" something that looks bad. Who cares if I accidentally told you something - why would I deny such a thing? I think someone (was it me?) accidentally cross-posted about it on critics, or forwarded a post there by mistake, not long after it started. So then, Sune, if I or any other member told you about it, by mistake or otherwise, how is it a secret?

Is it an anti-Waldorf action group? Maybe you can tell, as you are one of the two who own it? --Thebee 11:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a private mailing list. There are thousands of them on the web. Its origins, its members, the content of the discussion there are all none of your business - that's why it's private. Nothing there is relevant to this wikipedia article, which is the only reason we are discussing it here. Its inclusion cannot possibly be justified.DianaW 12:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I will therefore re-add the text about the well documented existence and nature of the group. --Thebee 08:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The "nature of the group" is something you cannot possibly have information on unless you have hacked into it. There is not a snowball's chance you-know-where of your being able to document anything about the "nature of the group."DianaW 02:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll keep removing this statement. Can you verify that this secret group exists? Whether you claim someone told you about such a group or not is no reason for including this nonsense here. I'll be collecting diffs about this edit and presenting them to Misplaced Pages administrators. This is a ridiculous statement that you cannot support in any way, shape or form (this is not your website Sune, you have to actually have some evidence here) and you are just putting it in here to cause grief to editors that are working on this article. This is exactly the type of editwarring that everyone here is trying to avoid. --Pete K 20:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I followed your link - it doesn't go anywhere that supports your contention. --Pete K 20:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello fellow editors, I'm back and will assist in cleaning up this article. Nope, the "secret anti-Waldorf action group" nonsense is not coming back. I am one of two moderators and owners of the group that Sune is referring to and -to get right to the point - not that it is any of your business, Sune, what a private email list discusses, but the list is not affiliated with PLANS, it was founded specifically as a separate group, its membership is international - I think the last time we tallied it up there are members from eight different countries, whereas PLANS concerns itself with a lawsuit based on church/state constitutional issues specific to the US. I will go and check the membership roster since you are so interested in the "secret action group." It has no connection to PLANS and thus has no connection to this article. I suggest you give up this entire line of attack because it is not going to be possible for you to either link it to PLANS or make any kind of credible claim as to who is a member and what we are talking about. And the nonsense about how you've shown that web postings on one list declined or increased when someone started some other list, is completely hilarious. There is no possible way for you to know why membership or postings went up or down on any particular list at any particular time unless you are a member of the list, and you and I know that you are not a member of that list, Sune. This one will NOT be worth pursuing. You do not have a leg to stand on. Nice to talk to you too! DianaW 02:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW I argued with members of the list in question to allow this piece of goofiness to remain - "Secret Anti-Waldorf Action Group" - because it is just so cornball. Most people know what a private mailing list is, Sune, and know that organizations have mailing lists. Still, in the interests of salvaging some respectability for this pathetic article, it is too absurd to argue to keep it.DianaW 02:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The day after your last sejour here, you described your participation here at Misplaced Pages in a posting on an anti-Waldorf mailing list with:

Y'all know me here, so you know what I did. I ranted and raved, and then I ranted and raved. I ranted and raved systematically, every 2 hours or oftener (kind of like feeding a baby; is it really 2 hours between feedings, if you time it from the start, and the baby nurses for an hour and forty-five minutes?), anyway I did this in reply to every single *$%^## piece of smoke Sune Nordall could blow. I practically slept at the computer.

I was *very* pleased when he basically cried uncle.

Your last sentence refers to when you made a personal attack on me and got a warning for it. The one you disparagingly refer to as "uncle" is Admin Golden Wattle, who gave you the warning. Back on track? --Thebee 10:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

On "I am one of two moderators and owners of the group that Sune is referring to and - to get right to the point - not that it is any of your business, Sune, what a private email list discusses, but the list is not affiliated with PLANS". Is the other moderator member of the board of PLANS? Thanks, --Thebee 10:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

No. He/she is not on the board of PLANS. I repeat. (And I am *very* happy to go on repeating, Sune.) The details of that mailing list are absolutely, ludicrously irrelevant here. *Even* if it were PLANS related, no one in their right mind cares if PLANS has a private mailing list. (They do, of course; it's just not the yahoo group that so intrigues you. *Obviously* they do. Is there an organization in existence today that does not have an email list for members?) Who is the other moderator of the list I moderate is irrelevant here, and none of your business, and not information anyne reading wikipedia is interested in.

"Crying uncle" is an Americanism that you are perhaps not familiar with. It means "giving in." I didn't call anyone "Uncle" (not sure what you imagine that means). Sune, you have my permission to paste in here my remarks from anywhere else on the web - anywhere you have access to legally, that is. Your angle to have me removed or disciplined here is blatant. I didn't call Golden or whoever is "Uncle." (I've never talked to Golden Wattle.) Did you think it was some kind of slur? What I wrote about replying to your *#$* on the critics list was not in regard to what you think. I stand by what I said, anywhere in public. When I said I responded to all the smoke you blew, I was referring to your repeatedly pasting in links to AWE and your other web sites regarding the infamous bogus "hate group" accusation, which you were forced to removed as there is no documentation or credible source for such libelous information anywhere. Yes I ranted and raved - I assured you your tactics would be exposed and that is still the plan. You will not post libel here about PLANS or other critics without this response from me - here and elsewhere.70.20.169.16 11:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

whoops, the above is me (Diana). Forgot to log in. Let's cut to the chase - trying to discredit me, trying to say I insulted an administrator here whom I have never spoken to is not going to work. (That administrator knows he or she has never had a conversation with me - he/she is not mentioned in my post that you quoted, and I had never heard of him/her until reading the above.) The point we are addressing here is that your claims about a "secret action group" are not relevant to this article and not supportable even if they were. You're honestly trying to make people think some yahoo group that you aren't a member of is something mysterious and sinister. Everyone knows what a yahoo group is, Sune. It doesn't scare people.DianaW 11:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Diana, for willingly subjecting yourself to this abuse. It has been going on for weeks now with me and I can appreciate how difficult it is to remain civil when people toss out libelous remarks offhandedly. I'll spend a lot of the weekend cleaning up this article and documenting reverts by Sune. I've put a POV tag on the article for the time being - to alert anyone reading it that much of it is basically opinion. --Pete K 15:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Warehousing of Court Documents on Waldorfanswers

For the same reasons we have decided that links to Waldorfanswers should not be allowed for court and legal documents in the Waldorf Education page, the same applies to links to Waldorfanswers on this page. If the court documents are to be linked, they must be moved to the neutral Wikisource page and not the substantially biased Waldorfanswers page. It is my understanding that these documents are in the process of being moved to a Wikisource page. The links should be updated when this process is completed. --Pete K 02:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll be removing all links to Americans4WaldorfEducation and Waldorfanswers in this article tomorrow. If anyone is interested in having legal transcript information available, please upload the documents to the Wikisource site. References to original research will be removed completely. --Pete K 20:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful, Pete. This article is about the most pathetic thing I have seen on wikipedia. It should be entirely deleted. As strong a defender of PLANS as I am, in the interests of wikipedia I am actually embarrassed that it is even here. It is not worth an article on wikipedia. It is a small lobby group, formed in particular to pursue a specific piece of church/state litigation. Of course the issues are of much broader interest, and it may become more widely known if the case (under appeal) eventually gets to the Supreme Court. Misplaced Pages is being shamelessly used as a soapbox for people who are unhappy about this litigation to defame this group. The pages on anthroposophy and Waldorf education (and there are literally *dozens* of articles) are of wide enough interest for wikipedia certainly, but this particular piece is a shameless attack, absolutely a shameless misuse of wikipedia's intended purpose to allow this here.

I'd think the administrators would want to look into this. Are there articles on every small citizen action group in a major city somewhere pursuing some particular piece of legislation or activism -this is not an appropriate use of wikipedia. It's as if I put up an article on the tiny little tutoring agency I work for, or the PTA at my kid's school or something. There are actually hundreds of small groups formed by ex-members of various religious groups, cults, and other types of high-demand groups, and these small organizations don't *each* warrant an article on wikipedia. The articles on cults, anti-cult groups, counter-cult groups in general, new religious movements and their critics - that is where any mention of PLANS actually belongs. (Hate to give them ideas, but . . .) This is not like Greenpeace or Amnesty International or something. I suggest the article be removed.DianaW 02:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed all the links to the defamatory original research websites Americans4WaldorfEducation and Waldorfanswers. At this point, the entire article needs to be tagged with tags but people don't like it when I do this. Very little of the "information" here is supportable (with the exception of the court documents) outside of opinionated sources that seek to defame PLANS. There are also references here to the "Defending Steiner" site which I believe need to be removed as this site is the same thing as WaldorfAnswers and AWE - another site intended to defame critics of Waldorf. I'll take another pass and remove those links as well. I encourage editors to post relevant material that is NOT original research on the Wiki-source site and link to it. --Pete K 15:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"PLANS alleges witchcraft" and "Large web portals" material needs to be removed

Rest assured that if the entire article is not deleted, the correct information to set these cockamamie rumors to rest will be provided, and attempts to remove it will be energetically resisted. Actually, just getting AWE and Waldorf Answers disqualified as "neutral sources" will take care of most of this nonsense.DianaW 02:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Pete, the stuff from the "Defending Steiner" blog (Daniel Hindes) needs to go, also. Didn't we have this same discussion about the Waldorf article? I thought no blogs? There seems to be the same confusion here about what a "NPOV" source is. It isn't Daniel Hindes - he's a Waldorf teacher and devoted - well - "defender of Steiner," as his various web sites attest. His "summary" of the history of the PLANS court case (noted as "partisan" even by the person citing it) is about as biased a summary as you could find. I'm tempted to speculate that even Sune knows it has outright contrafactual statements in it or he would not concede even that it is "partisan."DianaW 02:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm just getting started on the witchcraft thing, and this will take a little time. Let's give a flavor of where we're going to need to go with this. At present the article states:

"In May 1997, PLANS Inc. started campaigning against the addition of Waldorf methods in public schools by picketing outside Waldorf methods schools in Sacramento and Marysville, CA. Allegations were spread among parents, teachers and anti-Waldorf activists that Waldorf engages in witchcraft or pagan rituals and practices, and these rumors were soon reported in the media as well. "

Note how very carefully this is worded. Yes, in May 1997 PLANS started this campaign - against addition of Waldorf methods to public schools. And there was a picket. Note that the next sentence is carefully constructed in the passive voice - "Allegations were spread" - it is stated this way because it wasn't PLANS who was "spreading allegations" - they're just hoping the reader will assume so. In fact, to the best we can determine, the original allegation ("witchcraft") may have come from one of the teachers there who was a devout Catholic and considered material that she was being asked to teach (after the conversion of this public school to Waldorf) to violate her religious beliefs. She considered it satanic, apparently. She didn't like the look of the pentagrams and lemniscates in lesson material, that stuff looked pagan to her. Most of this is rumor at this point. PLANS never told anyone "anthroposophy is satanic" or "anthroposophy is witchcraft" and Sune Nordwall will not be able to show that they did. "Summaries" of this on his own web site are not documentation. Any public comment you can find from PLANS' representatives says the opposite, as the de facto leader of the group is a professed skeptic, who doesn't believe in things like "witchcraft."

So then the article continues: ". . . these rumors were soon reported in the media as well." Yes, these rumors were reported. Reported by who? Again they're careful not to specify, because they know who. They don't have a document or an individual to corroborate that anyone from PLANS said that, becuase they didn't. The article is very careful not to say that PLANS was spreading these rumors or was the source of these allegations. The intent is to give this impression, but there isn't any documentation, and the claim is worded very carefully so as to appear not to even need documentation. "Stuff happened. Rumors were spread." Yep. Can't deny that rumors were spread! That's like "Some people say" (here we go again).

The quote from Dan Dugan that follows is pretty clear: He is enthusiastically supporting these people (parents and teachers at the school) in their fight to prevent the Waldorf religious conversion, because it violates their religious beliefs. "Some people" - the people he is supporting, and on whose behalf he is about to file a lawsuit - are opposed to their children receiving anthroposophical instruction because they consider it satanic. He supports them. This is a church/state separation issue. It confuses people like Sune immensely that religious fundamentalists and atheists agree on the issue and found common cause in this piece of litigation. They have very different motives for wanting anthroposophy out of public schools, of course, but their common cause is upheld by the United States constitution, which forbids religious proselytizing in public schools.

The article that is cited as documentation that PLANS told these parents this, doesn't say that. It will need to be removed as documentation that PLANS alleged witchcraft because it doesn't say that. The *editorial* does say that, but considering that the related article doesn't provide any such evidence, or even claim it, it's pretty clearly the editorial writer's bias. It should probably be removed too. Editorials are by definition polemical pieces, not documentation in the sense of a news source. They are a publication taking a point of view. I've mentioned the huge holes in the "PLANS alleges witchcraft" story numerous times and there is no reply - they just hope I'll forget and they can go on making this claim. Not this time.DianaW 13:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I responded above about the "Defending Steiner" blog before I read your comments here. Yes, of course it should be deleted as well. I agree with the "witchcraft" section as well - this has been proven to be false outside of this article. I can remove these now. --Pete K 14:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Every word in the section is cited and backed up by published, verifiable sources

Every word in the section is cited and backed up by published, verifiable sources:

"In May 1997, PLANS Inc. started campaigning against the addition of Waldorf methods in public schools by picketing outside Waldorf methods schools in Sacramento and Marysville, CA. Allegations were spread among parents, teachers and anti-Waldorf activists that Waldorf engages in witchcraft or pagan rituals and practices, and these rumors were soon reported in the media as well. "

Citations 17 and 18 refer to two published News articles in The Sacramento Bee at the time: http://dwb.sacbee.com/content/links/story/12266380p-13130448c.html and http://dwb.sacbee.com/content/links/story/12266379p-13130444c.html

Yes, those are now citations 4 and 5. The conclusions you draw from the articles are opinions, however. If you are going to write THIS article based on the WORDING of the editorial in the Sac Bee article, then have the decency to put quotes around that material.--Pete K 16:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Pete. I will rewrite it properly a bit later. It will read something like (after the first sentence above, "In May 1997," which is acceptable), "Parents and teachers protested the new curriculum, including some who felt their religious beliefs would be violated by what they viewed as pagan (etc) practices or lesson content. PLANS joined them in picketing the school . . ." or "PLANS encouraged them to picket the school . . ." or "PLANS organized a protest" (I am not sure of the details of who organized it.) The above is factual. It should not imply that PLANS spread certain allegations when they did not, and Sune Nordwall has no evidence that they did. His "published news articles" aren't going to cut it. The news article he cites simply doesn't say what he says it does - it doesn't say anywhere in the article that PLANS told anyone that anthroposophy was witchcraft - and the *editorial* goes out on a limb asserting things that the news article itself does not corroborate. The best that could be said for the editorial - and I certainly have no objection to it being cited, in this case - is that sentiment in the local area or the local press ran both ways, with some (for instance the Sac Bee) opining that PLANS was overreacting or fomenting problems. etc. *That* is documentable - it is documentable that that editorial writer did not like what PLANS was up to. It is *not* documentable, because it did not happen, that anyone from PLANS was telling those parents or teachers "This is witchcraft." More later.DianaW 18:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"In a newspaper interview, Dugan commented on the independent Waldorf school in Davis, California: "They believe that there are spirits behind everything. I know there are people who would call that evil. (They) would consider anthroposophy a satanic religion."

Very good. There is Dan Dugan putting his views out there. As you are well aware, he is an atheist and a skeptic. In this interview he is explaining the views of the people with whom he had joined forces in organizing litigation against this violation of church/state separation. These parents and teachers considered anthroposophy a satanic religion. They did not want it in their local public school. Dan Dugan supports this, encourages them to express their views, as they support his organization's litigation against this school district. Their religious views are different; their interests in removing anthroposophy from a public school converged in this lawsuit. As Pete points out, for the Christian supporters of the lawsuit, it is win/win.

Opponents of PLANS assume that this will come across as some kind of smear, or character defect on Dan's part or PLANS' part. It is the opposite. Supporting these people is the *right* thing to do. It does not matter whether their own religious views are the same or not. That is what separation of church/state is about - that is the entire point of the lawsuit.DianaW 18:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation 19 refers to a Newspaper interview in the California Aggie (Davis) on May 22, 1997.

"When criticized on his mailing list by a supporter for the way PLANS used allegations of Wicca and Satanism at Waldorf schools in its campaign against public Waldorf methods schools, Dugan defended this, stating "What I say 'in defense of the Waldorfians' is that 'they don't eat babies.'" and "Am I pandering to the prejudices of Christians? Personally, yes I am!" "

Citation 20 is a posting by Mr. Dugan on June 9, 1997 on his own anti-Waldorf mailing list.

Small quotes taken out of context must be seen for what they are. Are you suggesting that Waldorfians EAT babies? --Pete K 16:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Dan is outspoken. Dan is not particularly careful about his language. They *asked* him was he "pandering" to Christians. He is not going to back down from the principled stand he has taken. He is replying that if you want to call it pandering, call it pandering. You will not get him to back off by accusing him of "pandering" to a particular religious group. Dan is an atheist. The lawsuit is about separation of church and state. Dan will "pander" to Buddhists or Hindus or Presbyterians or whoever you like, if they will support the lawsuit. We have church/state separation in the US to protect *everybody's* rights. The irony of the opposition is that church/state separation is very much in the interests of small groups like anthroposophy. They are simply, at the moment, blinded by the lure of public funds for their schools.DianaW 18:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"In July 1997, an evangelical legal organization, the Pacific Justice Institute (PJI) secured a grant on behalf of PLANS from the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) to initiate a lawsuit by PLANS against two school districts operating two public Waldorf methods elementary schools, the Sacramento City Unified School District and the Twin Ridges Elementary School District, The application was motivated with alleged "Wicca" based practices in one of the schools and complemented with a video of a News story on the picketing. "

Citation 21 refers to pp. 3 and 4 of an ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND GRANT REQUEST APPLICATION, dated 18 July 1997, made on behalf of the WC by Pacific Justice Institute and sent to ADF. It is quoted at http://www.waldorfanswers.org/ADFApplication.html and the Application is published as pp. 49-54 of an Application 1 August 1999 to IRS for Recognition of Exemption, at the WC-site.

So what? For Christian fundamentalists, this is a win-win situation. If PLANS wins, one religious group doesn't get to have their religion in public schools. If PLANS loses, it opens the doors for Christian groups to move into public schools. Why wouldn't the Pacific Justice Institute want to be involved in this case? --Pete K 16:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The implication Sune is trying to make is that PLANS does wrong by working with these people whose religious views are very different from his own. The Pacific Justice Institute is a fundamentalist Christian organization whose members very clearly believe that most New Age religions are satanic and equivalent to witchcraft or devil worship. They believe virtually anything that is not biblically based, and often a very narrow biblical literalism at that, is satanic. These views are very far removed from Dan Dugan's - Dan is an atheist. However, it is not only *not wrong*, it is actively *right* for him to work together with them on litigation that protects both interests.DianaW 18:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"However, during depositions for the trial PLANS secretary, Dan Dugan, testified that he did not believe in the allegations himself. "

Pretty silly of him to go around "making allegations" and then denying them, huh? If he wanted people to think "anthroposophy is witchcraft," why is he on record all over the place saying just the opposite?DianaW 18:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation 22 refers to Sworn deposition by Mr. Dugan in the case of "PLANS vs Sacramento Unified School District and Twin Ridges School District" lawsuit, Volume II, April 1, 1999, pp. 160 and 163. For quotation of what he said, see http://www.americans4waldorf.org/History.html

Again, so what? --Pete K 16:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Question to Mr. Dugan:

"Is it your belief that students at John Morse (public school) are learning witchcraft?"

Mr. Dugan:

"No."

Question to Mr. Dugan:

"Is it your belief that students at Yuba River (public school) are learning witchcraft?"

Mr. Dugan:

"No."

Question to Mr. Dugan:

"It’s not your belief that Waldorf (Education) is the work of Satan?"

Mr. Dugan:

"I do not believe that Waldorf is the work of Satan."

Why do you think he was asked about it during depositions for the trial, if the allegations had not been supported by PLANS, and used in the application to ADF to get money from them to finance the startup of the litigation of the lawsuit against two public school districts in California because of their support of the use of Waldorf methods at two public waldorf methods schools in the districts?

I explained the PJI's incentive in supporting PLANS above. They can't lose in this case. --Pete K 16:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Diana's trying to figure out how a long string of questions where Dan is asked, "Do you believe (Satan, devil etc.) ...?" and consistently replies, "No," is somehow seen by Sune as evidence that Dan believes the opposite.

Every word in the section is backed up by citation of published verifiable sources, meaning you can't delete one word of it, just add more text to the section, if you can find published citable sources for what you write. I have therefore kept the whole, citable and with regard to every word verifiable section to the beginning of the description of the history of PLANS. --Thebee 15:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, selectively reading articles isn't going to cut it. I don't need to find other sources - I'll quote both sides of the articles already referenced. When an unbiased article presents both sides of the issue, it is biased for you to represent only what agrees with your viewpoint. --Pete K 16:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Sune. I am not the one who has to provide citations here for "what I write." I can’t be asked to provide a citation showing that something has never happened. There isn't going to be a newspaper article saying, "Plans never claimed witchcraft." If *you* want to claim that they did, *you* will need to provide a citation for it - and you haven't got one, so the material is going to end up getting substantially rewritten. Manipulations such as "allegations were spread," phrased so as to imply spread by *PLANS*, will be removed. I'll come back to the PJI grant application material later. The description of the picket at the school will be rewritten to depict the facts.DianaW 16:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Reverted Article

I have reverted many edits by TheBee and unfortunately some good edits by others because of the insistence of TheBee to remove reasonable citations that PLANS was justified in its actions against the schools. This is an unfortunate action to take as TheBee has been made aware that such edits won't stand. He has removed, among other things, the ACTUAL COSTS TO TAXPAYERS of training the teachers in Waldorf methods. This is a CRITICAL part of the issue - that taxpayers are footing the bill for Waldorf public schools. These types of edits are unreasonable and in a contested article such as this one, require discussion at the very least before making them. That this article doesn't say exactly what TheBee wants it to say is not a valid reason for changing what it says - especially when quotes are taken from citations provided by TheBee himself. --Pete K 15:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

On "the insistence of TheBee to remove reasonable citations" Check closer the text of the article before you started editing it again: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=PLANS&diff=next&oldid=76006640 I did not remove the info on the costs to tax payers of training the teachers in Waldorf methods. I moved it up in the article and put it in connection with the info on the teachers transferring to other schools. Also please tell if you find anything else you have added, that Ihae removed? I don't think I have removed anything documented in the source, just integrated it into a consistent argumentation in the text.

"At Oak Ridge in Sacramento, the program was being bankrolled in 1997 by a $235,000 federal grant. Funding in the 1995-96 school year totaled $238,000, much of it used to begin training the school's faculty in the Waldorf approach. 11 out of 26 teachers were expected ..."

But I removed the bold formatting. I have not seen bold formatting of text in normal articles at Misplaced Pages. --Thebee 19:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, and I indeed found lots of things repositioned by you to change the context of the newspaper articles. Very tricky. I've moved a few around back to where they belong and added the bold text back. It is THE issue here. $230,000 + per YEAR of federal funds to train teachers in Waldorf methods - for a school with only 630 students? That's a BIG DEAL. It should be bold. --Pete K 23:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This morning, a huge amount of editing was done without discussion AGAIN. I have replaced some of these edits and removed a huge section that became the centerpoint for much editwarring. The section was selectively quoting from two articles in the Sacramento Bee which are referenced already in the article. The quoting was being done in a way that POV was evident in the order and selection of the quotes. Again, I have left the main issue - the cost to taxpayers - in the article as this is the whole point of the PLANS lawsuit. --Pete K 16:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you have misunderstood the goal of describing sources. The point in describing the articles is not to restrict this to a description of what they say that supports the WC, that you personally think is most important and stress this with BOLD typeface. It is to describe what they describe in a NPOV way. Try this. Also, you have removed well documented facts. Indefensible. --Thebee 21:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What's the point of citing sources if you are reproducing them entirely in the article? The WHOLE POINT of PLANS is that PUBLIC FUNDING is going to religious education. That's why the BOLD statements. It's the POINT of the lawsuit AND the point of this article. If you don't get that, then you have no idea what PLANS is about and certainly don't have a NPOV about PLANS. BTW, you have now listed Americans for Waldorf Education several times in this article as being the group of people MOST CRITICAL OF PLANS. You are one of 5 members of that group. Are you suggesting that YOU could possibly write a NPOV article about PLANS? It stands to reason that if you are one of the 5 most critical people on the planet of this particular organization, maybe you should disqualify yourself from editing an article that is supposed to have a NPOV. --Pete K 23:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

On "... you have now listed Americans for Waldorf Education several times in this article as being the group of people MOST CRITICAL OF PLANS. You are one of 5 members of that group. Are you suggesting that YOU could possibly write a NPOV article about PLANS?"

Yes. The possibility of writing a NPOV article does not of necessity have much to do with being critical or not of something. It has to do with knowing as much as possible about a subject, and published sources on it, and striving to represent all basic aspects of it as fully and truthfully as possible in a neutral way out of a journalistic attitude to the subject in the article.

Yet, you continue to demonstrate that a NPOV is impossible FOR YOU. So even if you suggest it is "possible", you demonstrate that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you in this case. --Pete K 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I have much experience and knowledge of I think all basic arguments pro and contra WE, presented by the WC and representatives of WE, based on extensive participation on the WC mailing list, and reading sources the WC refers to in the argumenation. Articles should not be argumentative, but broadly descriptive in a balanced and NPOV way. I have a basic journalistic training, I have worked as a teacher of a number of subjects, I have studied Philosophy of Science, having to do with among other things how different basic paradigmatic perspectives influence the choice of questions you choose to formulate in research, and I have studied a number of subjects academically. I think I have a good possibility of contributing to a NPOV article on the WC.

No, you don't. This is evidenced by the fact that you think this article has to do with Waldorf education. It DOESN'T. It has to do with PUBLIC FUNDING of Waldorf education. You have completely missed the boat. That's why you want to paint an ugly picture of PLANS in this article by making wild accusations that they are a "hate group" and that they suggest Waldorf schools practice Satanism. You are heavily invested in discrediting PLANS because of a perceived threat, by you, to Waldorf education. PLANS is about a single lawsuit against two charter Waldorf schools who receive public funding. The case is all that connects PLANS to Waldorf. PLANS sponsors a list where lots of people participate called Waldorf Critics. This, however, is NOT PLANS and your vendetta against a perceived threat is clear here by your actions. There's no need to deny it. You may be a wonderful writer, and qualified to write about some topics, but the suggestion that you can produce a NPOV on this topic is nonsensical considering your own actions and edits displayed here.--Pete K 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Why am I critical of the WC? Because of its way of using, supporting, publishing, and defending the publication of far out demonizing, and demonstrably untruthful material about WE and anthroposophy in its campaign against them, having very little to do with actual WE, and rooted in a long term missionary secular humanist missionary campaign by the secretary and driving force of the secretary of the WC since 20 years to spread secular humanism in the Bay area of SF. For an overview of the argumentation by the WC and some examples of the demonizing components in its argumentation, see http://www.thebee.se/comments/plans1.html#Summarizing_comments http://www.americans4waldorf.org/History.html and http://www.americans4waldorf.org/Myths.html

I'm not going to bother reading any of this because, again, that has NOTHING to do with PLANS. PLANS is an organization that has filed a lawsuit. That you feel justified in your criticism and vendetta is inconsequential. This article is intended to describe PLANS, the organization, in a fair light using a NPOV. The WC list you mention above is an open list of critics of Waldorf education - anyone can participate there. You have participated there. There is NO connection between the opinions of people outside of the PLANS organization and PLANS. And everyone at PLANS and everyone critical of Waldorf is entitled to their opinion. The only demonizing going on here is YOUR demonizing of PLANS. --Pete K 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Stressing one statement in an article, based on another published articlce, by making it BOLD, something not found in the soure, removing the described answers to the allegations of Wicca supported by the WC, in the article, removing a number of well verified parts in the article that describe the demonizing parts of the anti-Waldorf campaign of the WC, and removing the reference to the well verified most critical site of the WC on the net does not stand out as a NPOV attitude to the article, but as an effort to turn the article into an argumentation. That's not the purpose and goal of Misplaced Pages articles. --Thebee 10:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you are very confused about what the purpose of this article should be. Demonizing PLANS is not the purpose of this article. Describing PLANS is the purpose of this article. Your own websites do a great job of demonizing PLANS. But Misplaced Pages is not an extension of your websites and it is not an extension of your opinions. That you think there is no "argumentation" available in this issue, and that your view is the only reasonable view demonstrates that your POV is biased in the extreme. --Pete K 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you say something maybe about what you have against Wicca? You seem to feel that if PJI objected to what they saw as pagan elements in the schools they observed, which they (in your view) mistakenly labeled as "Wicca," that it must be exposed to the world that PLANS then accepted a grant from this organization. (This wasn't a secret; the documents have been publicly available on the PLANS' web site for 10 years.)

I think we all agree that PJI doesn't like Wicca, and is probably eager to see "Wicca" in places where what is going on is not correctly labeled as "Wicca" in the sense of an accurate denominational label. Wicca refers to a specific sect, it doesn't cover all pagans or all New Age practices, and just becauses somebody is drawing lemniscates or magical symbols in their notebooks doesn't make them a practitioner of Wicca specifically. This is - I suspect we both agree - PJI's misunderstanding, or even fear mongering. They *really* don't like it, and they *really* want to keep their kids away from it. They aren't interested in the finer points of what distinguishes "Wicca" from, say, Druidism or Goddess worship. What isn't perhaps always clear to readers of these debates is why PLANS (you seem to feel) should have gone out of their way to denounce and disassociate themselves from the use of this particular terminology: "Wicca." PJI doesn't like witchcraft. Should the rest of us get very upset if someone mentions witchcraft? Do *you* consider it a terrible slur if someone is a practitioner of Wicca? I've known quite a few people who called themselves Wiccans, I used to attend Wiccan festivities myself. I still wouldn't choose a Wiccan or other New Age curriculum in a school for my child. (For one thing, it's weak in science.) Religion should be taught at home and in church. Atheists' beliefs are violated by these practices in schools as much as Christian fundamentalists'. (There: I've just explained the lawsuit to you again.) I don't see where PLANS did something terrible by allowing mention of "Wicca" in a grant application. PJI wrote the document; it reflects their beliefs, which seems fair to me since it was their money. (They've been informed of these recent "PLANS lied in a grant application" accusations, BTW, but don't seem particularly interested in the controversy. They knew what the application said because they wrote it. They can hardly have missed that the guy who originally filed the lawsuit is a secular humanist. They agreed to work together, a point that apparently confuses some religious people.)DianaW 14:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

In other words, had that grant application said that they observed "Druid practices" in the Waldorf school, or "New Age" practices or "Feng Shui practices," would this issue have proven so useful to you? You might have pointed out that it was mistaken, but it's that word "witch" that gets you going: it allows you to scream "Witch hunt!" It's terribly convenient. It allows you to self-righteously pretend to be in solidarity with Wiccans, another misunderstood and persecuted religious minority, and appear terribly open minded, while at the same time, you can conveniently disassociate yourself from Wiccans! It is custom made propaganda.

"PLANS alleges Druidism" wouldn't have had nearly the ring to it.DianaW 14:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no interest in engaging in a debate here on the thinking and motivation by different parties. Everything I have written in the article is backed up by documentation in the form of published sources in different forms, and I will reinstate that. That's all that matters to me, except for also of course supporting a truthful description of PLANS' argumentation and relating that to actual other published and relevant and verifiable facts. --Thebee 17:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This is pure nonsense. YOU need to absolutely engage in a debate here - because debating by putting in ridiculous edits is not going to work. You don't have support for what you have written here. That you have support for calling PLANS a "hate group" for example comes from your own group of 5 fanatical Waldorf supporters. Your selective use of quotes from questionable sources, and your insistence in using the flimsiest of arguments - the support for which are very biased publications, demonstrates what is actually happening here. You insist in writing things that imply wrongdoing but you cannot state anything categorically. Judgment by Web Portals, for example, is a very stupid topic. Who, other than you, cares about what web portals have decided - especially not knowing what influenced those decisions? NOBODY. In fact, I'm going back and removing it completely because it has nothing to do with the topic here. None of this defamatory nonsense belongs in an article. It's YOUR PERSONAL defamation campaign. The article IS about a LAWSUIT regarding the separation of church and state. That you want to choose a side in this issue is unimportant. Anyone reading your site can see you are extremely biased in regard to PLANS. But this is an encyclopedia - and your personal view doesn't matter. Let the article be about the ISSUE, not YOUR OPINIONS about one of the participants in the court case. --Pete K 19:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Diana replies as well: Sune's answer was clean and careful, but wide of the point. I'm not interested in his personal motivations either, I am interested in the slant of the article. Calling attention to the rather bizarre claim that "PLANS alleges witchcraft" (because an organization that donated money to the lawsuit opposed what they saw as witchcraft) mainly allows him to throw the phrase "witch hunt" around. "Witch hunt" gets people listening, and the phrase has simply proven useful to him (or whoever's writing under the name 'Thebee'). The fact that a grant app. (made in I think 1997) contained the phrase "activites that seemed Wiccan" or soemthing like that would not loom particularly large in any objective brief summary of the history of this organization. The history of the organization is mainly the lawsuit, and a few other public activities such as papers presented at academic conferences.

Everyone gets that a fundamentalist organization gave PLANS a grant. The funding of the suit is certainly worth mentioning in the article but the implication that someone was deceived (try contacting someone at PJI and find out if they feel they were deceived; they will laugh), or that PLANS has something in particular against Wiccans, is pure propaganda. It's a smear job. PLANS did nothing wrong in any of these contexts; every time they take a public action, they issue a press release about it. PLANS will join with Wiccans as easily as with PJI, if there are Wiccans who would like to donate. There have been Wiccans who contacted PLANS with their own concerns about Waldorf schools. Pagans think it's too Christian; some Christians think it's pagan. It's really something very specific: anthroposophy - and it wants public funding for its schools. It's simple - it's unconstitutional. "Witch hunt" is another piece of propaganda like "hate group" - it gets people's adrenaline up but it's quite missing the point. Nobody's hunting witches and nobody's advocating hate. What they're doing is suing a school district claiming anthroposophy isn't eligible for public funding, the same way Catholic schools aren't eligible for public funding, Jewish schools etc. On Sune's own multiple web sites, there is nothing critics can do about "WITCH HUNT" in huge type on pages purporting to "summarize" PLANS' activities. On wikipedia, it is not appropriate.DianaW 20:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Waldorf Master Teacher section

I think this section needs major revision. First of all, lengthy quotations are generally unsuitable for encyclopedia articles. Second, the transcript of this talk isn't very professional. There are numerous redactions where the actual spoken text is substituted with the transcriber's "summary". Third, the quoted section makes no mention of PLANS, and it's unclear to what degree the attribution to Dugan also applies to PLANS. It is out-of-context, so it's not even clear how Schwartz is in agreement with Dugan in this quote, because Schwartz describes that the religious references have been taken "out" of the public schools' Waldorf program, which undercuts the PLANS lawsuit charging the public schools with practicing religion.

The words of just one teacher taken from a poorly transcribed presentation don't deserve a section all to itself. Presuming Dugan is synonymous with PLANS to Schwartz in this talk, presentation could be referenced, but to make the point, I think a better quote to take from the lecture might be, "Dan has not created the problem: he is casting a harsh and terrible light on it--but he's not the cause. The cause is already there in the Waldorf movement. He's just bringing it, in the worst way possible, to consciousness." Professor marginalia 16:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I would have no problem substituting the portion of the lecture you have proposed. But the portion of the lecture that is quoted currently describes how Waldorf is indeed teaching religion to a great degree and this supports the need for the court action. The degree to which religious references have been taken out of the public school version of Waldorf is, of course, for the court to decide. They still pray, for example. Regarding the "words of one teacher", it must be noted that Eugene Schwarts was the head of teacher training for Waldorf schools in North America... not just a teacher... the teacher of teachers. What he had to say here was of significant importance and cost him his job. --Pete K 18:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the portion of the lecture describes a practice in a private school, not public school, and Schwartz is lamenting that the public Waldorf methods students won't participate in the religious experiences which are allowed in private school. In any case, this article is about PLANS, and Schwartz is contradicting PLANS's argument in this particular passage, which is fine, but the passage would belong then in the "criticism" section, instead of where it is now, trying to make the point about the value of PLANS as a "watchdog". Even then, it's still too lengthy. Professor marginalia 18:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I still don't understand why this particular passage from Schwartz (recently reinserted) is being used to illustrate this "watchdog" thesis. When this speech was made, public schools had already been told by the private Waldorf school association (which owns the name) they would not have permission to call themselves "Waldorf". Nobody on the private Waldorf side would be "punished" for agreeing with this in an oral presentation. The public schools that call themselves Waldorf are ignoring the private Waldorf association's copyright.Professor marginalia 00:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about the *trademark* (not copyright) of the Waldorf name? The name "Waldorf" belongs to AWSNA - that's Association of Waldorf Schools in North America. It doesn't designate it's association with schools as public or private. Your case, BTW, is easy to make now that you've deleted the context of the lecture. The issue was that Eugene Schwartz publicly declared that Anthroposophy is a religion and that Waldorf schools are religious schools - WHILE Waldorf was trying to make a case that Anthroposophy is NOT a religion. It was, indeed, on this that the PLANS case was based. That public Waldorf schools had the Anthroposophical trappings removed was very easy to dispute in court. The issue was whether those trappings, the presence and influence of Anthroposophy in public schools - especially in the curriculum - constituted a religious enterprise. Eugene Schwartz, through his wonderful honesty, put the Waldorf people in a bad way with regard to this court case - because they were lying through their teeth about Anthroposophy not being a religion - and he pointed that out and asked them to come clean. That's why Mr. Schwartz was demoted. But as long as you continue to remove the relevant portions of the lecture, nobody here will see this. I'm guessing I might add them back in soon. --Pete K 02:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't "remove" this particular passage. I shared my concern on the discussion page in order to give editors a chance to respond. You agreed to the replacement I made. AWSNA does not permit public schools to use the name "Waldorf". Public schools are precluded from calling themselves "Waldorf" schools. And at no point in this lecture does Schwartz ever say that anthroposophy is a religion. We can't go so far to try and "connect dots" and fortify evidence to key disputes with specifics that aren't actually in the sourced text. Professor marginalia 04:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous waste of time to argue with you over what you pretend not to know or see. I'm going to replace the entire passage as it was. The best way for people to determine what was said is to see the actual words. --Pete K 14:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I can read perfectly well.

1. The transcription has been redacted throughout, including right in the middle of this quoted passage. The transcription has many, many instances where the actual quoted statements are replaced with another individual's summaries, which leaves questions about the legitimacy of the transcription.
2. In what's left, the speaker is complaining that the public school child is not allowed to pray in the Waldorf school. That's why he doesn't want public schools calling themselves Waldorf schools. It is not such a radical view that he would be fired over this-it's the official policy of AWSNA that it will support only private schools and schools must be qualified by AWSNA to call themselves Waldorf.
3. The passage doesn't even talk about PLANS's value as a "watchdog" group. It's a weird non sequitur to put it here.
4. Lengthy quotes don't belong in encyclopedia articles
5. And now a further challenge has been raised that the whole thing looks like it is taken from an unpublished source.

Admin has cautioned that concerns should be brought to this talk page before making major changes. When I brought the concern here, you agreed to my proposed change before I made it. Professor marginalia 15:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Sources

It seems that a lot of the article's content has been taken from an open "discussion list", a practice which wikipedia generally frowns on. Many of the assertions here which I've tried verifying through web searches appear on the discussion list, but I've been unable to find any published confirmation elsewhere.

For example, the passage, "Of the 350 published works by Steiner, most of them transcripts of lectures, a number describe spiritual aspects of religious traditions, including Judaism, Christianity and Buddism. In one lecture series, 'The Fifth Gospel" Steiner describes events, that according to him are based on clairvoyant observations, and not described in the original four Gospels. Other books, lectures or lecture series by Steiner are "Christianity as Mystical Fact and the Mysteries of Antiquity", "The Bible and Wisdom", "The Apocalypse of St. John", "The Easter Festival in relation to the Mysteries", "Esoteric Christianity and the mission of Christian Rosenkreutz", and "The four Seasons and the Archangels'. PLANS claims these works are the foundation of Anthroposophy. "

References to these texts appear in the discussion list by various individuals, but not that I could find in any statement supposedly coming from PLANS. Even in those mentions I found, the texts were not described as "the foundation of Anthroposophy", and they were also not included in the court documents I looked at as evidence PLANS intended to use in their lawsuit. So I'm going to ask for a reference on that statement, and I think in we need to be careful that statements made on that discussion list are not mistakenly assumed to be a valid reference for claims here. Professor marginalia 21:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Many of these sources are listed here - on the PLANS website in an article by a PLANS member. I can edit the list to this one if you like. --Pete K 23:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It's very iffy to take a member's statements as proof of the organization's position. We need verificiation that this is PLANS position if the article is identifying the list as such. Professor marginalia 00:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

PLANS isn't the United Nations. It's a small group of people. If you like, I'll ask the secretary of PLANS, Dan Dugan, to drop by here and confirm or deny that this is the case. Fair enough? --Pete K 02:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No. Find a published source that reflects the statement here accurately-that "would work". Professor marginalia 03:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you playing games? If this link confirms the statement I tagged, I couldn't find evidence in it anywhere. I also couldn't find this list of texts mentioned, and I couldn't find any statement in the article suggesting the opinions in it belonged to PLANS instead of the author of the article. It comes out. Professor marginalia 04:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

See WP:Verifiability: "Information on Misplaced Pages must be reliable and verifiable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources." This applies to the Schwartz lecture, too, which is not a published source. Hgilbert 10:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Not interested in your interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. Go look at the Steiner article - NOTHING has been verified - it's all interpretation by Steiner supporters. Look at the Waldorf Ed article - same thing. The author was on the BOARD OF DIRECTORS of PLANS. That pretty much makes them a spokesperson for PLANS. You guys are the ones playing games here. I'll keep putting it back in. And you guys know my tenacity. --Pete K 14:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I take this as admission that you have no other source except the article you supplied earlier--and that article does not mention the texts, period, let alone claim that PLANS considers them the "foundation of Anthroposophy". It doesn't mention PLANS. And I have not seen any documents to show the author, Lombard, was ever on the board of directors, including court documents where PLANS directors names were revealed in depositions and interrogatories. The whole pitch for this source is BS, start to finish. It comes out until someone can properly source the statement. Professor marginalia 15:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

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