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Revision as of 21:27, 5 October 2006

Quantum cybernetics

Hmmm...WP:NOTABILITY suggests that "a minimum standard for any given topic is that it has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works, where the source is independent of the topic itself." I feel that this fails that criterion. The article would appear to have been created by the person who came up with this theory, meaning that maybe it fails WP:VAIN as well. It is not a widely recognised interpretation of quantum mechanics (or, in fact, recognised by anyone at all, apparently, other than its author), and Citebase records a total of 6 citations of "quantum cybernetics", 3 of which are self-citations. See also the discussion on the article's talk page for more info.

It was prodded a while ago, someone removed the tag, but the article has remained the same.Byrgenwulf 12:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom Tengfred 12:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I find the reasoning in the nomination and the talk page cogent and sensible. If these ruminations had attracted more attention, one could have made a case that they merited an article on notability grounds. However, such is not the case, and we don't need an article on every idea which went nowhere outside the inventor's head. Anville 13:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. I think we should cut some slack for the hidden variable theories, but this short article is quite hard to follow, and the use of the term 'cybernetics' is not motivated. Plus the concerns about lack of citations mentioned above. To show how thoroughly this article was discussed, it should be mentioned that, besides Talk:Quantum cybernetics there was also a debate at . EdJohnston 14:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Do not delete. Yes, I am the author of the article as well as of most (but not all) papers on Quantum Cybernetics. I will not go into any detail concerning the numerous errors and half-truths that came up in the discussion here. Knowing that you will delete anyway, here's what I still have to say.

I put the article here, because I thought that WP was a forum less conservative than the average (sic!) academia. I am a person involved in the discussion on the foundations of quantum theory for quite some time now, and from the serious discussions I do have with open-minded physicists, I've not had a single argument that would cast serious doubt on the proposed theory. By the way, may I remind you of Murray Gell-Mann's famous statement: "Quantum mechanics is not a theory, but rather a framework within which we believe any correct theory must fit." This is true even 80 years after it has been brought into existence! So, a little modesty would be quite adequate when putting judgements into a general form, like saying, for instance: "...but then I supposes hidden variables approaches to QM have been out of vogue since, well, Bohr." This quote by Mr. Byrgenwulf speaks for itself, even if it is meant half-jokingly (which I assume, because later in the talk he quotes John Holland's book as a "good" one) - this is exactly the way most orthodox (quantum) physicists (Copenhageners) behave. This has of course nothing to do with intellectual sincerity, but only with (mostly institutional) power. Whoever doubts this is invited to look up our webpage http:\\web.chello.at\ains and scroll down to the article on "The John Bell Scandal".

It is far from true that Quantum Cybernetics is only founded on one scientific paper (the one I quote is just an exemplary one, of course, and Found.Phys.Lett. is EXACTLY the journal where you publish "foundational" theoretical papers - Nature, or Phys.Rev.Lett., resp., would not do that on principle!), nor is the theory unknown among experts (see, e.g., J. Baker-Jarvis and P. Kabos, Phys. Rev. A 68, 042110 (2003), who begin their summing up of hidden-variable theories by saying: "Holland, Grossing <sic! no umlaut this time>, and others have performed extensive research in this area." That my approach is not quoted in strictly Bohmian papers is no big surprise, as I do believe that the Bohmian approach does not go far enough, although in many respects I consider it one of the most valuable antidotes vis-a-vis the Copenhagen hegemony, which pervades most of conservative academia (and which, of course, still does not have a theory in Gell-Mann's sense yet!).

So, what can you do? Trying to go beyond Copenhagen Mysticism (which maintains that there will be no better "understanding"), with a realist agenda, but not being a Bohmian, you'll have to develop un-orthodox strategies to promote your theory. I thought WP was an option for doing this, because I did and do believe that Quantum Cybernetics is an OFFER to people who like to THINK AUTONOMOUSLY. Unfortunately, as it seems, WP is dominated by the same academic people who have the say in the intellectual milieu that is responsible, amongst other things, for the John Bell Scandal. (By the way, up until late in his career, when he published upon invitation for Rev.Mod.Phys., Bell never published any of his by now famous papers in a scientific journal of "high reputation". He even was not allowed to give a course on the foundations of quantum theory at CERN throughout his life!)

Personally, I am convinced that sooner or later, a hidden-variable type theory will have to substitute quantum theory. Most likely, this will become necessary not because of a phantastic new theory that all of a sudden explains it all, but because new experimental facts (based on better than present-day resolutions) will force even orthodox quantum physicists to admit modifications of their beloved holy grail. Then, perhaps in a not too far future, one would be forced to look for new theoretical approaches. Quantum Cybernetics may turn out to be too simple an approach, but it might as well be that it can provide an acceptable starting-point for a more profound understanding.

Of course, I cannot conceal my disappointment about WP policies responsible for deletion of my article. I feel they have to do with an urge to be "respectable" among academics, and to stick to what can "really safely" be said about, e.g., scientific issues. Unfortunately, there's not much that is "really safe", especially in the foundations of quantum theory (and its relation to relativity, for example), and it would be wise to remain open-minded on all those issues that are only seemingly "safe", but in reality covered-up with a lot of meaningless rhetoric, like "out of vogue-ness", and the like. Okay, I guess I'll leave it at that. 212.186.121.51 20:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I really was just being flippant when I made the quip about hidden-variables approaches being out of vogue. I don't like the Copenhagen interpretation either. Also, this is really not about the accuracy or validity of your work. We both know that hidden-variables approaches have their own problems (rotational invariance, non-locality, ad hocness, etc.). So it comes down to choosing one's poison, really, as Maudlin put it. Finding an approach that sits well with one philosophically, in the absence of the higher-resolution experimental evidence (which may never be forthcoming). However, if anything nowadays, a bit of Copenhagen austerity is a blessed relief from the ontological excesses of the many-worlds view, which is arguably becoming the dominant viewpoint.

I am pleased to see that I was right about your decision to post the quantum cybernetic article here not being out of vanity, but rather a sincere attempt to draw people's attention to it. The thing is, we have to draw the line somewhere, and experience dictates that theorists posting their own theories just doesn't work. However, maybe it is me who is being unforgiveably blind and ignorant here. Can you provide some citations of the quantum cybernetic approach by other people? Because certainly, if it has generated healthy discussion in the literature, then we should have an article on it. I just couldn't find any (and I did look!). But Misplaced Pages, I'm afraid, is not the place to stir up that discussion. Byrgenwulf 21:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

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