Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:23, 13 September 2017

This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Greece and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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• WT:GREECE
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Greek radio and television stations

New User:Trapezanidis 1453 has been creating a number of these, probably translating from Greek Misplaced Pages. It might be useful for someone from this project to assist him with infoboxes, cats, notability for broadcasters and English. I have left a note on his talk page suggesting the same. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC).

Greek Austerity Packages

Hey! There were 13 different pages for each of the austerity packages, and I merged them all into Austerity Packages of Greece. You guys certainly know more than me about Greek Politics, so if there are any improvements you could make to the article, please do so! I will go through eventually but your help would be appreciated. Thanks again El cid, el campeador (talk) 16:22, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Sarakiniko Beach

The article Sarakiniko Beach has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

no references and lacks notability

While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. BSOleader (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Albanians communities in Greece German article

Hi All,

I was in the German wikipedia and it happend to visit the article Albaner in Griechenland. That article has been locked in an Albanian nationalistic POV claiming that 70% of Greeks originated from Albania. Anyone that can help restructuring it according to the English one? Thanks.Othon I (talk) 12:43, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Nationalistic POV is a regular problem in all language versions of Misplaced Pages, and attention is needed, but I expected this kind of POV to happen more frequently on the Albanian language version of that article, given the current nationalistic trends in the domestic policies of Albania, not on the German language one. Unfortunately I can't help on this as I do not know to speak or write German. Perhaps someone here or in the article's talk page can? --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 15:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I was wondering about it as well but I found out that only Albanians are editing the article. If someone has a good knowledge of German would be great to help. My knowledge of German is limited. Othon I (talk) 08:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I have the same concerns about Greek Misplaced Pages after coming across some articles in relation to Albania, "Northern Epirus" and Arvanites. It is very important to remove all nationalistic content from the Misplaced Pages project.Resnjari (talk) 12:05, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Exactly Resnjari, I couldn't agree more. Same goes to the Albanian Misplaced Pages were they present Archbishop Hierronymus and others of Arvanite origin as Albanians in Greece. Othon I (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

If you feel so very strongly about this, you can lead by example on English Misplaced Pages. There is the article Greek Muslims on English Misplaced Pages. Start a move page thing on the talkpage so the article name is changed to the non POV Greek speaking Muslims as it was many years before. Those people do not identify as Greeks after their ancestors converted long ago and nor do modern Greeks consider them Greeks, as per the scholarship (even the Greek wiki article has the page name as Ελληνόφωνοι μουσουλμάνοι = Greek speaking Muslims). On archbishop Ieronymos II there is no article on him in Albanian Misplaced Pages. Where did you get that idea from about him being listed as Albanian? Also on other Arvanite figures which have Albanian wiki articles (https://sq.wikipedia.org/Kategoria:Arvanitas), the articles usually state they are Arvanite (or rarely Arberesh - the name they use for themselves in their former mother tongue), not shqiptar (unless in relation to Suliot figures - even english wiki cites their Albanian origin in the Suliotes page, as per scholarship) and the categories even have greke (greek) down below. Just curious, can you read Albanian or is this conjecture?Resnjari (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Pardon me, Hierronymus is presented in the German WP as Albanian in Greece, in the Albanian Misplaced Pages see below https://sq.wikipedia.org/Shqiptarët_në_Greqi you can see the images about presenting Nikos Engonopoulos and others as Albanians in Greece. I so not have a clue of what it says since I do not speak or understand Albanian. Regarding the Greek Muslims, I would give it thought a bit more because we are discussing a religion here and not an ethnicity/nationality however, it could possibly change by achieving a consensus to you suggestion. Anyway, on our topic, claiming that 70% of Greeks are of Albanian origin as it is stated in the German WP is an endorsement of extreme nationalistic propaganda that must be avoided at any cost. Othon I (talk) 09:01, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Othon I I have reverted to Khirurg's version, thus removing the 70% figure ]. Nationalists on all sides should desist from these sorts of wild claims.--Yalens (talk) 00:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Yalens Thank you very much. It looks like that hey have reverted it and they have change the status as non-editable. I think we must report the situation. Othon I (talk) 17:16, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Just for everyone's info, I have started a discussion for consensus in the articles talk page. Othon I (talk) 17:36, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

The users who locked the page rightly noted that we speak German poorly at best, plus from their point of view this could smell bad (canvassing on the WikiProject Greece page, easy to see how this could be misinterpreted...). I'd recommend asking for help from a user with a strong reputation who edits Albanian stuff and speaks German well-- Future Perfect is a native speaker if I remember properly, and I've seen him edit Balkan topics to remove nationalist POV from time to time-- perhaps you should ask him? You could also try Vargmali, he also speaks German, but he's often busy and a lot less active.--Yalens (talk) 23:57, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

If Future Perfect or anyone else with a good knowledge of German and a proven interest in Greek articles is willing to help, that could be great. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 05:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Tagging Vargmali too. --Yalens (talk) 20:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Just a comment on the progress so far. So according to Future Perfect As I see has explained in the talk page of the article that its is somehow nationalistic agenda if we do not present Arvanites as Modern Albanians. Pretty neutral I must say. But anyway, I won't stay on that because I am actually neutral and I will say that of course they must be mentioned in the article as linguistic and cultural communities because the geographical region of Albania is were they came from and they spoke sand still some speak and Albanian dialect. However, I agree with Future Perfect on the fact that the living personalities such as Hieronymus and Pangalos and even an athlete who is from Ikaria and is not of Arvanite origin is absurd to call them ethnic Albanians. My comment proposition here https://de.wikipedia.org/Diskussion:Albaner_in_Griechenland Othon I (talk) 21:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Just a note for everybody who might follow this discussion. The German article does not say that "70% of Greeks originated from Albania". Whoever tried to translate this did a very poor job (electronic translators are usually rather unreliable). The article says that doubtful Albanian sources claim that there are four to seven millions of Albanians living in Greece (this would equal to 70% of the Greek population). --Albinfo (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

The point here is that we have a certain pov: the article mentions only the Albanian pov. On the other hand it questions the Greek census (I guess this is also according to Albanian sources).Alexikoua (talk) 21:41, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't make much sense to discuss an article of German WP here in English WP - but again:

Wrong. The Greek census is not questioned. But as Greek sources don't tell us, how many Arvanties, Çams or other Greek citizens with Albanian origin live within the country, the article tries to fill this gap by the use of other sources. And – what a surprise – these sources are Albanian and not Polynesian or Norwegian. If you have any Greek sources (the Greek POV), feel free to mention it on the discussion page of the article. I'm sure this would be very welcome and added to the article. --Albinfo (talk) 23:06, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Albinfo While I recognize the problem of Greek historic official refusal to acknowledge (officially) the existence of minorities, I don't think using a source that effectively claims 70% of Greeks are Albanian by descent (I appreciate that the page wasn't saying this) is optimal. Including nationalist claims by both sides (Albanian, Greek) as if they neutralize each other is not a method I support in this case-- I think it useful for pages about controversies, and in some sense, about history, which naturally must discuss different view, but not pages about people. It would be the same deal if we were dealing with one of those Greek sources that try to claim that like 20% of Albanians are "Greek"-- these sorts of things aren't worth including, and if they must be in there, it's because it simply isn't possible to remove them. Most readers of your article won't be interested in the controversy. --Yalens (talk) 04:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

It looks like that in German Misplaced Pages we have a lot of Albanian POV. I have just found out that in here https://de.wikipedia.org/Albaner the Arvanites are presented as Albanian diaspora in Greece. Probably we need to have a look at that article as well. Thank you very much all for your help. Building neutral articles and presenting both sides enable us to avoid misconceptions and misunderstandings. Othon I (talk) 22:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

For the sake of fairness, one might note on English Misplaced Pages that the Griko people are more or less portrayed as a Greek diaspora community, but like Arvanites, despite acknowledging their ethnic ties to Greeks, Grikos almost always identify as being of Italian nationality. It might mean, similarly, in the ethnic, linguistic and historical sense-- not in the national sense. Perhaps Albinfo would comment on this -- I understand that talking about German Misplaced Pages on English Misplaced Pages is weird, but I suspect many people are following this discussion only on en-wiki. --Yalens (talk) 00:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Yalens I understand your thought and you are partially right however, your example is a slightly wrong. Griko people are embracing the Greek culture and they are a recognised minority but of course they are Italians. Same like the Arbereshe who are a recognised minority embracing the Albanian culture but of course they are Italians. On the other hand, Arvanites are refusing any connection to Albanian nation and culture although they speaking/spoke an Albanian dialect and also, it is very important they are not an ethnic minority hence presenting them as Albanian diaspora is an endorsement of Albanian nationalistic POV and must be avoided. Othon I (talk) 09:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Personal family matters kept me away from wiki. Anyway Othon I in reply to your post from around a week ago, i did the changes you recommended to the page (bringing it in line with the English wikipedia page) and removed the problematic infobox gallery too . As that was the only page (?), other pages on Albanian Misplaced Pages such as that on Arvanites do not refer to these populations as Albanians (but Arberesh -their name by the way), even those that have content on Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greek Epirus (the ones who call the language Shqip like Albanians do) are refered to as shqipfoles ortodokse (Orthodox Albanian speakers) , , not shqiptarë (Albanians). Also note the Alb Wiki page on Arvanites clearly states using non-Albanian academic content that these people do not view themselves as Albanians and cited are also their (negative) views of Albanians and the Albanian dialect they speak/spoke. In relation to the matter of Greek Muslims, Othon, i disagree that the matter has only to do with religion. The same points apply. If designating the Arvanites and other (former) Orthodox Albanian speakers or their communities as Albanians is offensive, it is also offensive to have a page called Greek Muslims as Grecophone Muslims do not identify as Greeks (they think of themselves as Turks and it is cited for each Grecopohone community ranging from the Cretan all the way to the Pontian) and find it offensive to be called as such. Within that article it is also clearly cited that in Greece itself these people are not considered Greeks too. So for the sake of consistency and since we are all about removing nationalistic content and POV, the point made rightly about Arvanites by you and others the same should be applied regarding the page Greek Muslims with a change to the non-offensive and neutral Greek speaking Muslims.Resnjari (talk) 12:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

The national POV in Albanian wiki is dominant as the Northern Epirus article was all of the sudden speedy deleted ]. In similar fashion according to sq:wiki Thessaloniki has a 100,000 strong Albanian community. It's also worth noting that sq:wiki admins act like defenders of national honor: as soon as I dared to add an ethnic Greek in Himara ] I was instantly blocked by Tëfcí Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Dominant? You seem to have ignored the reason for deletion given by the administrator. Eagleal stated the following "ekziston epiri, ky ishte vetem 2 linje" translated is said "exists Epirus, this was only 2 lines" . In other words, the article Epirus exists on Albanian Misplaced Pages (cattering for the whole region) and the Northern Epirus article in question was two lines and not sufficient for it remaining. English Misplaced Pages itself has guidelines on such short articles WP:STUB, WP:CONTENTFORKING. Before accusing administrators on other Misplaced Pages projects of POV make sure first, maybe learn some Albanian on the way to assist. As for Himara, looking at your edit you placed about Spiros Spiromilos in the article, no article about him exists in Albanian Misplaced Pages so don't be surprised it was deleted, as even English wiki has guidlelines on this (WP:REDLINKS). On your ban take it up with Albanian administrators and make your case as there might have been other issues with your editing that resulted in your being blocked.Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Actually arguments of that type can be considered as the most childish excuses for deletion. No wonder a similar attempt to remove the same article from en:wiki was fruitless (the -now blocked- nominator pretended that it's CONTENTFORK too). As far as remember the sq:wiki article of Northern Epirus was more than 20 lines. Even though per wp:STUB that's not an excuse for deletion.Alexikoua (talk) 16:40, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Well using words like "childish" in your comments kind of answer why you might have got blocked on Albanian Misplaced Pages. Anyway that's your issue with the admins on Alb wiki (many of them know English so it would not be hard to present your case). On the deletion of the Northern Epirus article, the admin made that determination based on the article being only 2 lines. There is nothing conspiratorial about it. As far as i see it its your word of a editor (which as you noted your going by memory regarding events more than half a decade ago) against an administrator (a editor who had been elevated to a position of trust and administrative management by by other Misplaced Pages editors). Even me who has done so many edits on Alb wiki cannot get that role. An admin's word comes first over yours. That is how it is and wiki has the article guidelines.Resnjari (talk) 16:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Can you offer me a link on sq:wiki where I used words like that? (I guess not) It's far too obvious that such kind of POVish style national activity is evident in sq:wiki. Thus, "childish" is a reasonable epithet to use for some the behavior of sq:admins like Tefci or the one that speeded "Epiri i Veriut". No wonder similar attempts in en:wiki by editors that shared the same national obsession led them permanently blocked.Alexikoua (talk) 17:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

You used it here in relation to my comments. I don't know what kind of editing you did on Alb wiki or how you engaged the admins and frankly i don't care. The admins made whatever determination based on the issue of the day and if you have an issue with that, most of them speak English which means you and them can discuss on their talkpages. You keep refering to "national obsession" yet your evidence is nowhere. I pointed out (via the link) the reason for deletion as given by the admin. 2 lines don't make an article.Resnjari (talk) 17:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

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