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Request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page

I have a request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page. The current entry is rather long and we could add more Bibliography/References to the article if we had more space available. I am not asking that they be deleted...only shortened and the full entry moved to their page with more room to expand on it there. This would also allow for photos to be added which would make the article more engaging. PEACETalkAbout 17:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

They already do. Either AIVV, PBK or Prajapita Brahma Kumaris will take you there and it is linked to on the topic, it is not?

As far as I understand the PBKs have such a problem with BK members the leadership of the BKWSU shutting down their websites, going out of there way to discredit and persecute them that that they cant be bothered to develop it. It is a tense scene out in India between the two parties. They are no way as rich as the BKWSU.

BTW, as a matter of form new comments go at the bottom and the order is not changed otherwsie they might be missed.

P.S. I just had a look at their page ... and yes ... there are signs of the usual blanking/edit wars.

Thanks 195.82.106.244 17:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

.244,

So, does this mean that there is still room to add to the article?

Well, I could add the PBK article to my watch list....

PEACE TalkAbout 17:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Some inaccuracies in the article

I don't feel the need to qualify myself as a BK, in real life or on wikipedia. You may believe about me what you will, but either way that does not disqualify me from making edits. My edits should be judged for what they, and not who they were done by, as with anyone else. Out of interest, have you been in gyan for 20 years or is it that you came into gyan 20 years ago and left some years after? How the Knowledge is taught in India and abroad is obviously going to be different due to a different audience with different cultures, traditional beliefs etc. I believe you have some bias against the BKs. The wording of your posts suggests so, as does your linking to an organisation made up of ex-BKs which would be inherently biased against the BKs. Please attempt keep your bias in check. I will attempt the same with mine.

• 1. 'I can certainly say that it was Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now.' . If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the earlier version. Also, the process is what is important here and not the person, as 'impure' souls are capable of doing 'pure' acts. After all, most BKs aren't at a karmateet stage and so are still 'impure' so to say.

• 2. a. Even if the BK estimates are seen as unreliable, then the article will have to reflect that. But at the moment that section does not cite a source.

b. 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' That is not even a proper sentence. It definitely does not belong under a section entitled 'Global Expansion'. What it lacks in form it also lacks in content. It is misleading in that it gives the impression that the BKs are hoarding money, and if it is to be said that the BKs have only ever once donated outside of its operations, then it will also need to be said exactly where this money is going instead.

• 3. 'Their god' is not neutral wording. Again, Brahma Baba is not seen as God. Yes, the word 'businessman' is accurate, but not in this context! He was a diamond jeweller but this was not continued once the BKs were established. This is misleading and derragotory, implying he became a spiritual leader because of the business prospects! Also it does not need to state that he was a 'priest or authentic caste Brahmin.' This section especially is full of fragments and needs to be edited.

• 4. Again, you would need to a cite a reliable and authoritative source. Also, any reference the BKs make to 'Krishna' is not what is typically seen as Krishna - with the latter being purple skinned, an avatar of Vishnu etc. This is inaccurate and misleading, and this sentence needs to be changed to avoid this, seeing as this sections attempts to outline the core philosophy and beliefs of the BKs.

I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. I apologize for the forthrightness but let us take this point by point using sources acceptable to the Misplaced Pages to check your neutrality, competance and integrity as a Wiki researcher. Unfortunately, the NPOV tag is all too often used by individuals or organizations that have something to hide, to discredit objective and documented reviews of their activities. A Wiki topic is not intended as PR for the BKWSU. That is what its own websites are for. Let us work together to provide citable sources.

• 2 b.Donations and the Multi-Millions. Let us look at the British BKWSU zone as you are under its influence. Hopefully, you will be able to produce accounts internationally and from the Indian headquarters to disprove the assertion made at present on the basis of the folowing.

According the English Charity's stated object, it was set up on 18 July 1975 to:

• (I) TO PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION AND OTHER RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD.
• (II) TO PROMOTE STUDIES OF AND RESEARCH IN THE FIELD OF HINDU RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY, YOGA (VARIOUS TECHNIQUES OF CONCENTRATION AS DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES) AND TO MAKE KNOWN THE RESULTS OF SUCH STUDIES AND RESEARCH.
• (III) TO RELIEVE POVERTY, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL SICKNESS AND DISTRESS.

Source:

According to accounts held in the public domain at the Charitable Commission here; , over the last 5 years it has had a income of £1,200,000 to £2,800,000 and holds in excess of £15,000,000 in the bank taken in donations from its followers. It has spent approximately £1,000,000 on a new meditation centre and accounts state that its policy is" to invest in bank deposits".

Show me, via the accounts where or when it has ever acted to alleviate poverty from the period of 1975 onwards and how it spent money alleviating poverty. Perhaps once you have done so, we can also address as an additional point, whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES". Your statements regarding Krishna would seem to contradict this.

Please note, Chief administrator, Dadi Janki Kripalani is on her own website reported to be a "a highly effective spiritual entrepreneur", here and elsewhere through the media. It would not therefore appear that the correlation between business and spirituality is contradictory to the organization's activities.

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

195.82.106.244, had a look at the Charitable commission accounts link that you cited. Got to say it all looks entirely reasonable to me. Most of the £15 million is tied up in buildings and other essential service facilities.

So how do they address poverty? Couple of things I might mention. When I first ran into the bk about 5 years ago now, I noticed discreet little boxes with “Indian Earthquake” Appeal on them. No hard sell, no obligation, but if you inquired you were welcome to make a donation, casual visitors included.

As to how they do it in the West. Happy enough to speak from experience. You’re encouraged to develop a spiritual perspective which not only improves mental and physical health, gotta tell you bud, the day to day basics become a whole heap more affordable when you finally draw the line on the 30 fags a day and pub every night after work habit. More too, much of the infantile keeping up with the Jones’s led consumerism goes as well, so even more hard earned cash stays in your bank account.

As to your query on “whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES".”

Well, I’m no real student of the core teachings, but I've had a look at one of the more balanced references on this site. Reender Kranenborg, Free University of Amsterdam. " Brahma Kumaris: A New Religion? " , 1999. Might shed some light for you.

--searchin man 00:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• As far as the core teachings go, I prefer the core teachings which are easily verifiable by Misplaced Pages standards and so therfore citable. You can read some of them here. . The BKWSU generally keep them locked up with passwords and PGP encryption on the internet but some BKs are sick of that - or support the PBKs - and have released them to the public domain. A number of non-orthodox BKs are also publishing them, so we do not have to rely on hearsay or front of house PR any more. Failing these, you can go to a BK Raja Yoga Centre and request to be read them.
• Donations. Just show us the bottomline. How much, where, when.
• Raja Yoga is not based on Hindu scriptures - any BK care to disagree and provide citable references ? BKs believe that the Hindu Scriptures are based on BKWSU teachings. I can provide citations.
• "Baba says is the Murlis" - which is something that you will hear the BKs say all the time - that BK don't perform Bhakti, don't go to Temples, worship statues, follow Gurus etc. What they are told is that they belong to their own BK Brahmin Religion that will then become the 900,000 strong Deity religion in the future heavenly Golden Age and then in about 2,500 years reincarnate again as Hindus worshipping themselves. The only argument for "advancing the Hindu religion" is essentially destroying it or leading its followers out of "impurity" and "ignorance". Which are the words they use.

I state "BK Brahmin" and "BK Raja Yoga" so as not to confuse between the BKs and proper caste Brahmins and traditional Raja Yoga.

BTW, 89.240.134.193, Shamsunder Krishna is blue not purple. It is symbolic.

Any BK care to disagree and provide citable references ? 195.82.106.244 04:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible to keep the entire discussion of 'Some inaccuracies within the article' on one page, and not in two archives? It would be a lot easier to see the whole discussion that way and will also provide the necessary context for what we are discussing now.

Seeing as though we agree about the article needing citable reliable and authoritative sources, should a warning not be put up in the meantime showing readers that this article does not cite its sources?

On the point of donations, 2b, your summary of the BK accounts in the UK is misleading. It does not 'hold in excess of £15m in the bank taken from donations', rather it has £15,942,517 in 'tangible fixed assets'. This is an important distinction, one which the user searchin man has also highlighted. Once depreciation is taken into account, tangible fixed assets total £12,194,930 (all figures are those at 31st December 2004). This can be found on page 12 of the annual financial report which is in that link you provided . Furthermore, 'cash in hand at bank' totalled £3,626,426 at the end of 2004. Whilst it is true that the 'Investment policy' on page 3 states the 'current policy is to invest in bank deposits', page 14 indicates exactly why the BKs are putting money into their bank account; 'the excess cash revenue is earmarked for further expansion of the BKWSU activites by aquiring land and property in areas where it has less presence'.

Unfortunately it would require someone with more expertise on non-UK equivalents of the Charity Commission to find the relevant documents, with the language barrier standing as it is. Many BKs will be able to testify that the organisation raised money to donate to the Asian Earthquake and the South East Asian Tsunami appeals, and it remains to be seen whether these efforts were noted in official documents. Hopefully, with time, they will appear. However, this does not mean that the fragment 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' does not also need to cite a source. Whilst you cannot prove a negative, a source here would serve both purposes. Until then it should either be re-written, deleted or a will need to be put there.

Also, I believe common sense dictates that the use of the phrase 'spiritual entrepreneur' is not meant to denote a link between business and spirituality.

I apologise for mistaking the colour of Krishna's skin. Even if it is symbolic it must be noted that the BK use of the word Krishna differs greatly from the traditional use of the term. It is misleading, inaccurate and will need to be edited. I take it you are agreement with points 1, 3 and 4? If not, please state why following my previous post. PEACE 84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

phasis added]. If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the ----84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006

NPOV

"I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)"

It is evident that the authors of this page have a clear dislike with BK. User .244 has his own web site brahmakumaris.info where he clearly edits, changes and does wahtever is necessary to fit his beliefs, it is not surprising that he wants to do the same here. Any serious "encyclopedia" must have a non-biased approach when informing the public. How many votes do we need to get the NPOV tag and a very strong warning? What is the policy on this? So far 2 votes.

Last but no least, Talkabout. still waiting for the "computer glitch" in the brahmakumaris.info to be resolved. My membership there has not been reinstated. I am being blamed for calling "Ex-l" as "195.82.106.244" and that was considered a personal attack. Hopefully he will not edit this out.

As always Best Wishes, avyakt7 21:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

OK Avyakt Bud, sound enough, but I can see no reference to this on the brahmakumaris.info forum, so I guess it must have been censured as well? What say you .244? Tell you what Bud, if you are Ex-l, then from what I’ve seen of your postings, I wouldn’t say you’ve a clear dislike for the bk, more the mother of all clear dislikes for not only them but pretty much anyone else you can find on the web with any hint of association with them.

Guess we better make that 3 votes for the NPOV tag then hadn’t we? Sincerely searchin man 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

avyakt7,

I must say to you that your sensitivity here is lacking. As stated before there was no issue until your membership was at risk. Play nice and maybe others will play with you.

• First, as you know many Ex BK suffer from trauma once they leave due to the constant talk of destruction.
• Secondly, the forums serve as a place where they (ExBks) do not have fear, where they have an outlet to discuss all these tenents that the Organisation wants kept secret and which they are trying to sort out.
• Thirdly, I see that the PBKs act with more tact and sensitivity in being able to play nice in the sandbox with both BKs and ExBKs. Your skills (computer/flash) are good, artistic and I am sure you can elicit some interaction from other active BKs. So, if you can't play nice, start your own party. MY VOTE IS NO NPOV.

Riveros 11 avyakt7 = searchin man? Are we having a duality moment here?

TalkAbout 01:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Bhais,

a) If you want to use the Misplaced Pages, read the rules. " Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes. "

That is the official policy.

b) 89.240.134.193 if you want citations, place one of the following citation request at the point where it is required by using the following markup ;

{{cn}} or {{Cite needed}}

and allow us time to provide them. Be warned, it is a two way process and the BKWSU will equally have to provide its citations where requested and I would like to request now overall Global financial statements detailing how much money and what proportion of donations it has actually given to alleviate poverty, when it started to do so and so on. If you can request this from your Zone-in-Charge then we will make for a very neutral and accurate report.

c) If you have answers, and citable sources, let us see them and reach that consensus. You have not provided any to support your positions to date. I am perfectly willing to provide mine.

d) Avyakt7, honestly, if you got kicked off a webforum for attacking someone else, go fix it with the owners. You are a BK teacher in Florida. That was obvious back in March of this year. What Shrimat have your taken to act in the manner that you are acting? Tell us the whole story. More personal attacks?

OK, so I voted against your "Cycle of Time" topic but the overwhelming consensus was against you. I am sure you love Baba but science is another game.

d) Transformation versus Destruction. Avyakt7 again. Yes, I also removed your Transformation re-writes. We all know that the concept of "Destruction" is and has been key to the BKWSU teachings. OK. I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. But if the BKWSU have stated there is going to be no Destruction, no death of 6 Billion human beings, no Confluence Age, therefore no Golden Age - provide the citations.

So, of course, it does not require a NPOV. What it requires is dialogue and citable evidence. Honestly, you BKs are becoming more like the Scientologists every day! 195.82.106.244 04:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Real disappointed with you there Talkabout. When I first looked in on this discussion, you had raised Avyakt7’s complaint on the user Brahmakumaris.info talk page and I took it as some indication of impartiality. Now I see all trace of that has been removed and Avyakt7 still locked out. Can’t see any further communication between yourself and user Brahamkumaris.info on the matter either, so whatever your offline communication was, seems the hostile mockery in your above response to Avyakt7 means you’re now pretty satisfied his banishment was justified. Let me tell you Bud, I ain’t satisfied, and let me tell you just why his complaint is just dead relevant to the NPOV request on this Wiki discussion.

In the main BrahmaKumaris.info discussion thread Avyakt7 was involved in, Ex-l typically starts muck raking through the web and mocking the guy with a link to a poker site he has contributed to. No censure there it seems, yet Avyakt7 tells us he got censured because he addressed Ex-l as 195.82.106.244 in a subsequent post.

Now to me that’s just pointing out that he reckons he knows Ex-l from another site under another annonymous id. No identity threat there, not even insult. But what happens, the guy not only gets his post censored, he gets barred completely. Talkabout bud, your alarm bells otta be ringing loud and clear, there’s an urgent need for an NPOV and very strong warning on this site now. If you’re still not getting it, let me tell you just why.

Avykat7 was bang on with 195.82.106.244 = Ex-l.

The censure and barring that followed means that 195.82.106.244 was lying to BKSimonb about his connection with Brahamkumaris.info.

There is a very pretty cosy connection between Ex-l and his forum administrator, who you Talkabout bud, seem to think is the user Brahmakumaris.info on this wiki discussion.

Anyone can see from Ex-l’s posts that he spends most of his waking life looking for ways to discredit the bk/anyone associated with the bk.

See you’re real concerned about identity’s being legitimate in this discussion group. So you just go right ahead and check out avyakt7=searchin man with the wiki’s sockpuppet detection guys and if you’ve really no connection with the BrahmaKumaris.info site, then do us all favour and get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked same time.

Sincerely --searchin man 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Godly Intellectual Property.

In order to illustrate the Misplaced Pages article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.

We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;

• Who owns the copyright to God's works or God's versions? Are they covered by limited, proprietory licenses or are they open and unlimited?

To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.

Following on from this ;

• What is the accredited creation date for The Cycle, The Ladder, The Trimurti, and the Lakshmi and Narayan concepts?

Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.

• Lastly, if possible, we would like to give proper credit to the original artists.

We await your advises with concern.

Thank you.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bklandn_A4.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bkcycle_A4.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bkladder_A4.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bktree_A4.jpg

Brahmakumaris.info 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Anonymity, Cults and personal attacks.

User Riveros11 or Avyakt7 enters into this discussion have been allegedly kicked off a discussion forum. He had allegedly been attempting to reveal personal information about another person he had dug off the internet in a menacing manner, presumably intended to win an argument.

As a cult member of this group we are documenting, immediately he commences exactly the strategy attacking me and attempting to connect me with this other individual. Obviously, a strategy of intimidation used by Cults like the Scientologist to frighten individuals off from revealing their truths to the public eye, he now engages a 'buddy' to help him.

The Misplaced Pages protects individuals and encourages discussion. Its official policy is "no personal attacks" and within personal attacks is stated, "Threats or actions which expose other Misplaced Pages editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery". So, in line with policy, I am formaly requesting you to decist from personal attacks and to remove any smears, allegations or confusions you are attacking me with.

As an example of which, I would like to illustrate. Riveros11 or Avyakt7 has an issue with Destruction and Transformation. If we take his user names, those subjects and his known affiliation with this cult and put them into Google, within a few steps it reveals

• his proper name
• his place of work
• his department and position
• his professional qualifications
• two telephones
• work email address
• his degree of involvement with the BKWSU

Within a few steps, one is about 70% on the way to identity theft.

Now, given the current state of tension, fear and security paranoia within the USA; BKWSU teacher Avyakt7 writes on more than on forum, "We, will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the bombs. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used". Now, it is also policy that, "membership of an organization does not prohibit an indivdual from contributing". But from this, we could easily say Avyakt7 to be;

• a recruiting leader of an extremist Eastern cult involved in psychic channelling and mind control
• a cult that believes in the destruction of free society and that it is agent to destroying free society
• a leader who demands total surrender of mnd, body and wealth
• a leader that teaches that "the world is a haystack ... it will burn" to "make Heaven on Earth" for his 900,000 virgin followers
• a group that operates numerous fronts and is infiltrating politics and power internationally
• cult members of whom chop and change representing these various fronts in public

You can see how a malicious individual could use such easily gleaned personal information in a personal attack. Now, obviously, I have deliberately constructed an extreme scenario here - even if the citations are there to support it - but what does the general public really know about what is going on inside the mind of Raja Yoga / BKWSU? What even do the neophyte followers know?

I suggest that if we meet in the Misplaced Pages, we observe the Wiki's policies. When in Rome ... and all that. 195.82.106.244 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Personal Attacks and NPOV

info@brahmakumaris.info wrote:

To: avyakt7@yahoo.com Subject: Suspension From: info@brahmakumaris.info Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:21:03 +0100

Hello avyakt7,

The following is an email sent to you by bbsysop via your account on BrahmaKumaris.Info.

Message sent to you follows 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)20:57

Your membership has been suspended and this matter referred to the moderators in order that they come to a decision. Although general guidelines are in place, it is new and voluntary forum and so this might take a few days. No policy regarding the suspensions or banning of individuals was ever invisaged as being necessary amongst Brahmin souls.

If you are willing to follow the guidelines, and can avoid the tendency to make personal attacks, you are welcome to continue to post. If you inspect the forum, you will realize that 3 or 4 separate topics on Destruction, dating back to May, have been combined together as part of regular pruning.

Thank you.

This is the email I received from "ex-i" AKA bbsysop AKA admin AKA .244 "Ex-i" deleted my greeting in my last post. The greeting was "Dear 195.82.106.244" and then Greetings! After I wrote an email where I typed "195.82.106.244" about 10 times to address him.... He decided to drop my account without previous warning. After that, He "pruned" what I shared deleting posts not suitable for him.

I recall the one where I demonstrated that Poincare's theory is not in contradiction with the second law, as he has stated. I showed him a document which I researched for the last 3 years. He has never showed me a logical argument to counteract it. Moreover, the fact that this article was erased by wikipedia editors it does not diminish its validity, considering that this article is about cyclical time which is a subject which is not even dealt with by western scientists.. and of course, a college Kid with a degree is not the most qualified person to judge in 20 minutes something which has taken some years to understand. (the Ocean of Knowledge is very deep.)

I apologize for such a lenghty document to explain the incidents. I have explained to "ex-i" AKA "195.82.106.244" that "destruction" and "transformation" are not contradictory. Shiva's knowledge is not "linear" it is paradoxical. There will be destruction. God Shiva has never released a date for it. However, destruction as per "the end" never happens, it is a "transformation" because everything is eternal but changes through "time." (time is also a paradox) This is spiritual knowledge. Depending on the stress that I want to give to my articles I will use "destruction" or "transformation." Please see, that either term is correct to be used. I have explained this to "ex-i" so many times and he keeps on bringing this issue up.

I have no problem in releasing my identity. As a matter of fact, I respond my emails with my real name in it... unlike: 195.82.106.244 and others who are hiding under an IP or a fake name. If you hide, you are afraid. Are you afraid of what? Brahmakumaris.info are you afraid of my posts? I am a Brahmin and I have never called names to anyone or treated anyone disrespectfully. I will be more than happy to discuss "my science" (as 195.82.106.244 calls it) with any of you in that forum. EX-BKs writing an article by themselves about Brahma Kumaris are not qualified to do so because they have a bias vision. This is rational, logical to see. 195.82.106.244 negativity and bad feelings towards BK is evident; however, he will not understand that. I guess it is his role....

BTW, I don't know who "searchin man" is but I truly appreciate his support. NPOV is needed in this article. I propose to have one person from every position (ie. BK, Ex-BK, PBK, etc.) to be the representative for their division. Once the whole article is written as every party would like to see it here, then it could be discussed and decided among the representatives. Without this kind of "democracy" there will not be a consensus.

Best Wishes.

Avyakt7 AKA Riveros11 --72.91.28.223 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Listen Bud, the way I see it, the best way to present a balanced non-biased description of your organisation on this wiki page is to contact some of the academics who have seriously studied the bk. See the Bibliography for some examples.

These people are completely impartial, and already have some depth of analysis of the evolution of the movement. An official representative of the bk like bkSimonb, could then work with them to fill in any gaps since they last studied you. Far as I can see that’s the only way you can really put a permanent brake on the most bitter and twisted element of the xBK running riot as they’ve obviously been doing.

Sincerely --searchin man 22:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Prediction of Nuclear & Civil War, the 900,000, self-belief in being Angels etc

It must be noted that the BKWSU goes to great length to hide or refuse access to their inner teaching and is engaged in a process of re-writing them. However, far too much remains in the public domain to make this successful. The following references are not exhaustive or full detailed but significant enough to remove any doubt in a third party. A Sakar Murli is considered by the BKWSU to be the authentic word of God where no other scripture is. It is said by the BKWSU to be God himself speaking through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani. An Avyakt Murli is said to be the combined form of a dead Lekhraj Kirpalani and God Shiva speaking through the channel or medium of BK Gulzar. The scriptures are the highest authories within BKWSU teachings, excuding the Murli team that re-writes them to suit the time and the Global PR team that publically denies them.

• Nuclear War

The following links offer a direct and easily verifiable creference of BKWSU teachings of the destruction of a Nuclear War between Russia and America. Brahma Baba, the medium of Shiva Baba and founder of the BKWSU, had so much of faith in this predication that he signed such picture a declaration was made by the institution and images sent out to the Government of India and other dignitaries notifying them of the coming Destruction of the World and the establishment of Heaven. One can see clearly at the top two cats with human heads wearing military hats. One Russian with the Hammer and Sickle Red Flag, the other American with the Stars and Stripes. These images remain at the organisations Indian headquarters.

See; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//5/51/Catsandtree.jpg, http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//f/f2/Cycle_and_Trimurti_A4.jpg

"Look! The Science-Proud European Yadavas will destroy one and other in this internaional Atomic War (Mahabharata) like 5,000 years ago"

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//2/2d/Tree.jpg and "Adi Dev" by Jagdish Chander referenced in article.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6471058539715764200&q=Brahma+Kumaris Google Video clip of BKWSU promotion video including Destruction/Nuclear war.

• Civil war ;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//1/13/Lakshmi_and_Narayan_A4.jpg

and from the BKWSU own website

" Dada also saw how the death came slower through wars and civil wars, culminating in an awesome wave of natural catastrophes: floods and tidal waves, earthquakes of every kind wreaking havoc on the scarred face of the earth. Dada began to tremble uncontrollably upon witnessing the scenes of this great world wide destruction. Humans and animals were running wildly about, trying to save their lives, to escape from the jaws of death. But there was no escape. The wail of horror, the rivers of blood and pus, the panic and the desperation, and then, the final death."

• http://www.brahmakumaris.com/aboutus/divinevisions.htm

• Population of Golden Age is 900,000 ;

"All become worthy of claiming a right to liberation-in-life, but there is so much difference between the 8 jewels, the 108 victorious jewels, the 16,000 and then the 900,000. There is a rosary of 16,000 and also of 108. In the 108, there are also the eight special ones. All become beads of the rosary. Both types would be called beads. Even the beads of the rosary of 16,000 will say in happiness and intoxication: My Baba and my kingdom. The difference is between claiming a right to the royal throne or a royal status, a right to the royal family and a right to being in connection with the royal family."

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2001/01/26_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised.

It would be interesting to request a copy of BK Dadi Janki's 2006 class stating that the 900,000 would be ready this year.

• Only BK Raja Yoga followers going to heaven ;

" Baba has said: At the time of destruction, those whose intellect has no love will be destroyed. All of them will be destroyed and only you will remain to claim victory. You are establishing a kingdom. "

• Only religious group to have God teaching them direct ;

" The Supreme Soul Himself says: I enter this one's body (Lakhraj Kirpalani) in which his own soul is also present. I enter him ... It is only to the children who have become Brahmins that the Father speaks. He would not tell anyone else. He only loves His children"

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/06_Revised

" Om Shanti. The Spiritual Father (Shiva) sits here and explains to you spiritual children (BKs) ... He says: O children, I have incarnated in this one (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and, through him, I tell you the secrets ... Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) explains this. The path of devotion has been nothing but a waste of time. ... Baba now explains: Those worldly gurus do not grant you salvation. Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) leads you to salvation ... "

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/01/22_Revised

• External donations; actually I agree. We need evidence to prove the BKWSU have EVER given any money to any one else or else that should be removed.

• Maryadas or prinicples ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Maryadas_chart.jpg

• Avoiding controversial issues ; see comparison of Indian and Internal website as referenced in topic, Also typcial statement by Global Chief of PR and MultiMedia, B.K. Karuna in Moscow Times August 8th, 2006 issue, stating that;s

“The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union, said Brother Karuna Shebby, the organization’s chief spokesman, said by telephone from the group’s Mount Abu headquarters in the Indian state of Rajasthan.”

in contradiction to teachings of destruction and nuclear war referenced above. http://brahmakumaris.info/blog/?p=100

• World population 5,500,000 ; actually this has gone up from 5 Billion, to 5.5 and now 6 Billion as the Sakar Murlis have been re-edited by the BK Murli Team.

See treaching poster referenced above. " Population of at the end of Iron Age 500 crore " Bottom of http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg.

• BK becoming angels : " You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised

• Rape by partner of BK because BK refused sex ; please check reference with BK Dr Nirmala in Australia, I refuse to name names in such a personal case.

• Child sex abuse at BKWSU Indian Headquaters ( Madhuban and Dehli at least) ; please check reference with BK Jayanti or Janki in UK, I refuse to name names in such a personal case.

• Destruction of World in 1975-6 ;

"Destgruction of viscious Iron age World in 10 years" ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg

• Becoming worship worthy Gods ;

" you Brahmins are the highest, the top-knot. Only these Confluence Aged Brahmins become deities. First of all, the Brahmins are even higher than the deities. The top-knot is the highest. You brahmins worship the deities, and you consider yourselves to be worshippers and them to be worthy of worship. You can explain this to those worshipper-priest brahmins in the temples. You are the true Confluence Aged Brahmins. You are the mouth-born creation of Brahma. You are now becoming deities."

"This donation and charity performed in a second through a powerful stage will make you worthy of being worshipped and remembered for half the Cycle."

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/02/07_Revised

"Then, in terms of being worthy of worship, your worship is so great. No righteous soul or great soul is worshipped in the right way like you deity souls are. "

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2004/02/04_Revised

• Becoming worship worthy Angels ;

"When Destruction takes place, they will understand that God has come. Then, those to whom you gave the message will remember: Who were those angels dressed in white? You also see angels in the subtle region, do you not?" - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/05_Revised

"You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised

" Then, at the final moments, you angels are guaranteed to become deities. If you want to become like the Father, then the Father is incorporeal and an angel. To become like Father Brahma means to stay in the angelic stage." - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised

"The Father is now once again creating the land of angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/06/07_Revised

• Heidi Fittkau-Garthe ; see the references already given below article ...

* Self belief as Angels

" The consciousness is that "I am a Brahmin who is going to become an angel' ... Now bring that consciousness in a practical form ... When giving visions of your angelic form you should make a special plan to make the service through the mind more powerful. Together with words, it is service through the mind that will enable the message to reach very far away. Just as nowadays, flying saucers are seen, so too, your angelic form will be visible all around and there will be the sound emerging, "Who are these beings who are circling all around?' People will begin to research into this and will have visions of you coming down from above. They should realize that it is these Brahma Kumars and Brahma Kumaris who are giving visions of the angelic form. You should now create such an upheaval. You should practice taking your subtle body on a tour. At the present time, it is most essential that you practice traveling with your internal subtle body. You should practice this so that everyone is able to see this in a practical form and everyone comes together. Others should experience that These are the same angels who came to us.' They should start searching around for these angels. If so many of you all begin to circle around like angels, then what will happen? Everyone's attention will automatically be drawn. So now, together with the corporeal form, it is essential to serve in the subtle form. In the early morning hours of Nectar, you should become detached from your body and you should circle around this way." Avyakt Murli 22/2/84 195.82.106.244 04:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition; , ,

• Not accepting donations from Shudra souls ; "The organisation neither solicits nor accepts funds from others for activities that relate to the internal running of the organisation ..." from . The element about Shudra's, being impure will have to come from a Murli which will take a little longer. Note, BKs could actually help this proceed faster if they were to be honest rather than whitewash the truth.

OK. I will take a break there. I am not avoiding answering any of the other requests for references or citation. I just think the denial and supression of BKWSU teacher and supporters is becoming increasing silly and that the burden of proof is clear. Actually by attempting to deny and suppress the factual truths about your organization and beliefs you are broadcasting them far wider. Perhaps this is how you want to do service ... I am happy to help.

What you BKWSU teachers and supporters should realise, if that the secrecy and cover up game is over. The internet is going to reveal you for what you are. Indeed, God Shiva has predicted this himself ( ... do you want a citation? We can provide it).

• So, your homework if you should so wish to accept it is to go away and find out the financial figures for how much and how often your organization has donated of its own money to causes outside of itself to alleviate poverty. The papers I have seen say ZERO. Thanks. 195.82.106.244 04:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Serious lack of citations

This article, in accordance with wikipedia policies, much like the BK predict of the world, could be 90% wiped away. There are many, many facts claimed and almost no refferences. If no one adds refferences, it will eventually be paired down. Sethie 01:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Serious lack of reading previous citations given and archive

Hi Sethie.

I removed the citation notice from the BKWSU topic as it not required. If you want to raise specific questions, please first read throught the discussion archive and quoted references. Then, where there is serious lack of citations that has not been covered, raise here in detail first where they will be answered.

It is not at all clear whether your objections are philosophical, i.e. that this is not orthodox Hinduism, or specific to the BKs. If they are specific to the BKs, it would help to know what your knowledge of them is based on.

Frankly, given that your comment comes after a page of "easily checkable" references in line with Wiki policy, I must admit that your action has made a negative impression. Let's discuss this first. If your POV is on a passing acquaintance or mutual self interest, be cautious.

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 12:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Your attempted analysis of my motives is both innacurate and not relevant.

Given your initial response, my prediction is that I would find dialogue with you unenjoayble and unproductive, so I leave the issue for someone else to tackle. I'll check back from time to time and see how well your defense of the page as it stands is holding up! Sethie 10:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Searchin Man complaint

The email which I posted above dated August 21, 2006 has been modified. It now reads as if I was invited to post back at the forum, brahmakumaris.info. I have been trying to log on into the site several times since I was banned, ...I would like to share my lyrics too..but unfortunately it is another false statement. BTW, are you going to buy the .mobi TLD ? Better hurry up...

So now everyone knows my name, former work place (sorry I cannot use the University computers to post,I have another job) Did you enjoy the USF site? but that is not malicious, you just made a simple google search to find out more about me...Well, 195.82.106.244 look forward to posting again in the site.. another lie from you will really discredit you....

Best Wishes to you,

Avyakt7 aka Riveros11 64.156.25.3

( can you figure out who is my IP provider? just do a "whois" search)

Dear,Avyakt7 aka Riveros11

64.156.25.3 Oh, are you Searchin man too?,

I will write the Admin one last time since you seem to miss the interaction and perhaps it will keep your duality in check by being just Avyakt7 there. Community seems to be a deep loss to those in transition. As stated before, please use this page only for article issues and not forum issues. I did provide the official BK forum link for you. Did you join? I hope that you get others support to allow for your timely return. In the mean time keep churning and play nice. PeaceTalkAbout 23:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Bud, looks like there's sockpuppets galore operating on this discussion. Where about are you posting the complaint to the wiki admin Talkabout? Don't forget to get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked as well, I'm absolutely certain you will have much more luck with I.P resolution there. Oh and btw 195.82.106.244, the edit summary is for summarising the edit or in your case vandelism carried out. Try and remember that please.

sincerely searchin man 23:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi.

Sure, you are making unsubstantated personal attacks and erroneous claims. I will go through the discussion again and correct what is wrong. I have no problem with criticisms, IF they are based on reality, BUT as this topic is not about me personally, I do not see the relevance.

Personally, I would prefer to work on addressing the citations that I have provided and following up on the organization's financial status. You are in a better position than I am to provide those but they ought be in the public domain.

Yup, ignore God making all those 1976 End of the World predictions, the senior sisters covering up the child abuse, keep up the ad hominem attacks guys - and don't whatever you do ask to see the un-editing copies of the Murlis. Especially, those between 1969 and 1976. This is all becoming very good factual account of the real face of the BKWSU today.

But tell me, are you going to meet God, the Supreme Soul, possessing and speaking through the old India lady Gulzar this "Double Foreigner" season at Mount Abu ? I am wondering if we need to correct the stuff about God Shiva possessing and being channelled through Gulzar as it says, "Should Shiva Baba enter the body of a pure virgin? But there is no such rule. After all Father, how can He mount a virgin?" in the Murli dated 15 October 1969. Can you check this please? Does that means that it is NOT God that is possessing Gulzar and speaking the Avyakt Murlis? If it is not, who is it that all the BK Raja Yogis are going to meet and having yoga with?

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 00:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear PeaceTalkAbout,

1.Please remember that it is not "playing nice" to modify articles in this talk page. Is this something which concern this article? I hope you say yes.

2.I am already a member of that site you sent me, which is a BK site. "Ex-I" is acting maliciously by disclosing my full personal information. He is not the only computer person around and I could get his full name,and other information which he is trying to protect...., but I will not (You can breathe deepely now, .244.) How about Godaddy.com? for kicks... 195.82.106.244 play nice, my friend. This is related with the article in question, because it shows that .244 is abusing this site and going against some of the wikipedia rules and regulations. All I have done is to find out that 195.82.106.244 and Ex-I are the same person and that he stated untrue statements to BK Simon. Oh, Btw, I didn't do a google search to get that.

3. It is obvious to me that 195.82.106.244 is afraid of my posts. He bragged about all along that "I run away" from his site. He is not giving me the chance to post there again because it is not convenient for him. As far as wikipedia, anyone could post here and make any changes. Changing IP addresses is not a problem.

4. Just for the record, I am not "Searchin man," and I will not lie about this. I am a Brahmin soul and I have no interest in anything else but to see an accurate article about the Brahma Kumaris in Misplaced Pages. As it stands right now, there is a lot to be worked on. That's all PeaceTalkAbout, waiting to hear from "that" admin... oh, yeah.. He knows my email (as everyone else now)so he can reach me via email to avoid any further delays.

Best Wishes,

Avyakt7 Riveros11

Riveros11,

If you are going to continue to make ad hominem attacks, and you feel they have any relevance to this BKWSU topic, substantiate your allegations. I keep asking.

• Personally, I'd rather focus on the facts related to this topic starting with the financial structure and status of the BKWSU.

If you are a trusted recruiter, and have some inside access to the management of the cult, are you willing to co-operate in this matter or do you think the cult's interest are best served by trying to attack and discredit me and the brahmakumaris.info website?

We have a good opportunity here to completely and accurately document the cult in a manner that has never been done before. I think you have to agree that the bulk of the topic is according to Shrimat and clearly referenced from the Murlis.

So what are your specific corrections and what are your easily referenceable sources or alternative citations?

195.82.106.244 14:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Avyakt7 Riveros11,

I haven't seen your name or address here? I do not think it was posted.

One point that I do believe needs to be corrected is the founder's proper occupation. I will gather the information one posted as I have verified this with several sources now and it would appear that it needs to be corrected. This was posted in along with some that are arbitrary (well semantics). The following was submitted by 88.110.105.125 :Formed in Sindh, now Pakistan, during 1937 by wealthy diamond merchant, Dada Lekraj, whose customers included royalty. He was a devout Hindu and had 12 gurus. After many years of devotion Dada Lekraj. My sources confirm that this indeed was the case and as in any business, not all jewelers can trade in diamonds, only a select few. This distinction is also warranted as it also shows that he was from a wealthy family in say contrast with Jesus. Sindh, being the upper business class and influential in society.

As to the OZ site well I would have to agree that the most intellectual thing posted there is the Thought for the Day. So, hopefully some of the other active BKs will pledge for you, so that you can return to the info site. By playing nice I am only noting that the PBKs under Arjun seem to get along wonderfully and so I do believe you too can get along in the sand box of the forum. So, place all bad thoughts away as a Brahmin soul and with good thoughts all Brahmins will get along.

I look forward to the discussion on the above-mentioned correction. PEACE TalkAbout 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

I have no complaint to place here in regards to .244. I discuss the points and move on from there. I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjur many things from said words. I wrote the Admins at the site where Avaykt7 wishes to return to. PEACE TalkAbout 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Talkabout! Good of you to take the time out to communicate Bud. Why up to now you’d been dismissing me right out of hand as a nasty sock puppet. Glad to see the change of heart. Sorry Bud, no idea what your saying here. -. “I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjure many things from said words.” - Please clarify for me.

Got to say Bud, finding it very difficult to see you as a self confessed ‘monitor of this article for vandalism’. Certainly your vigilance don’t extent to this discussion page, or you’d surely be more up for complaining to the Wiki Admin?

Seems like it has to take a part-timer like myself to drop in once in a while to catch 195.82.106.244 in the act of pruning and modifying what other contributors have said, to what he would prefer them to have said. Let me tell you Bud, this sort of behaviour may go down just a treat on his own brahmakumaris.info forum but it has no place whatsoever on a Wiki discussion page.

And yet Talkabout Bud, it can get worse! Naturally I restore the discussion to it’s original condition, where upon 195.82.106.244 reverts it to his version and then uses my own Talk page as a forum to publicly disclose personal information on Avyakt7 Riveros11 and then he really lays it on rich by attempting to further threaten me if I ‘don’t play by the Wiki rules’. I mean that last statement alone just kills me Bud. What sort of rules has the guy been reading!

And then ofcourse don’t forget the sock puppetry. - 195.82.106.244 aka BrahmaKumaris.info. Again something people are seemingly prepared to put up with on the BrahmaKumaris.info forum, but the disciplining of those who hide behind multiple identities on a wiki page is something I do know you will strongly agree with me on? Awaiting your comment Bud

sincerely searchin man 23:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is true. I will continue to make correction based on the facts and not sound like a scratched record.

What I raised on searchin man discussion page, here; http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Searchin_man was the following. I am still waiting for either of them to refure any of these core BKWSU facts and beliefs and say, no, they are not true.

• why the BKWSU were at pains to cover up the Child Sex Abuse ring operating in at least two of Indian centers, including the headquarters of Madhuban, that sexually abused a number of young girls?
• why the pedophiles that committed these crimes were not reported to the police and brought to justice as, say, the Roman Catholic has finally starting to do?
• why they were allowed to remain in their positions for several years despite the problems being known?
• why they attempt to re-write the BKWSU sex abuse incident as a mere allegation rather than an actual incident and blame it on the child?
• why the BKWSU took great pains at a teachers training session in the Oxford Global Retreat Centre to attempt to cover up any connection between child sex abuse and the BKWSU - WITHOUT INFORMING THE BKWSU RAJA YOGA TEACHERS THAT SEXUAL ABUSE HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN PLACE? Noting that the BKWSU even wrote this down on the handouts.

I pointed out that Avyakt7 Riveros11 believes and teaches - which is what the BKWSU behind the facade is really all about - that;

• dinosaurs lived 2,500 years ago,
• that evolution is a constantly repeating and identical 5,000 year cycle (which God used to teach it was going to be all over in 1975/76)
• in less than 30 years we will be making babies without having sex, indeed that baby Krishna must be on his way any day now
• that 6 Billion are going to die during a Nuclear Holocaust to make way for their heaven on earth (although God used to teach there were only 5 Billion human souls)
• God possesses a little old Indian lady to meet his superior Brahmin caste only,
• everyone else on the planet are Shudras.
• I am surprised that they wanted to bring all this stuff up on this discussion page. 195.82.106.244 02:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You know Bud, I had harboured the faint hope I might hear from Talkabout, but seems like the ubiquitous 195.82.106.244 will have to do. 195.82.106.244', I don’t quite recall asking you to throw ever more of your queries about the BK on my Talk page any more than the abuse that accompanied them, and I certainly didn’t ask for them to be regurgitated here.

In any event I am not a BK, but I am someone who has taken a pile of spiritual benefit through association with the BK. I would also say that I’ve found spiritual insight elsewhere too including mainstream Christianity. However this has usually not been without the subtle underhand pressure to ‘convert’. Something that refreshingly, I have never experienced with the BK. You can come and go at will, take what you want, leave what you don’t.

You seem to believe that it is essential that the every detail of the BK philosophy remains entirely consistent with what it was as you experienced it first hand, which from your postings on the brahmakumaris.info forum, I reckon is at least 20 years ago. Where as I believe group spirituality as with an individuals’ spirituality should be allowed space to evolve.

The reason I have entered this discussion is because currently you alone, are responsible for almost all the content of the wiki listing on the BK. As many others have commented before me, I do not at all consider this a remotely satisfactory state of affairs, as your views are so jaundiced and the methods you use to ensure their total dominance are so deceitful, that quite frankly Bud, I would give my support to anyone that attempts to challenge you with a more reasonable and balanced stance.

Currently if anyone attempts more than the most trivial change to the wiki entry it immediately gets pulled down and the ‘perpetrator’ (unless of course it’s 195.82.106.244') is invited to discuss before making changes. When I first checked in around the end of August, the ‘Some inaccuracies in the article’ section was well under way.

It came to an abrupt closure when 89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 had his NPOV warning and citation request pulled down within hours if not minutes. His final posting in the discussion was then deleted by 195.82.106.244, only to be restored by myself a month later, and even that only after an abusive and threatening encounter with 195.82.106.244.

And just finally I notice 195.82.106.244 has just added some references under ‘OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition’. Am I to assume this is a belated counter to bkSimonb’s argument that that community moved to India at the request of relatives?

Whatever the case it is a complete misinterpretation of what the references actually say. In fact, they wholly support Simon’s point that the resistance and court injunctions against Om Mandali occurred shortly after the Yagya relocated to Karachi in 1937, not in 1950.

Talkabout it’s gone all Silentabout your end, but I’m asking you again Buddy, surely you can see clearly now that 195.82.106.244 is utterly unsuited to any further involvement in the editing of this Misplaced Pages article?

sincerely searchin man 14:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

• Fist point, "89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 had his NPOV warning and citation request" This was pulled by me as the Bibliography/References are available and was simply not warranted.
• Second point, it would appear that this page is harder to work on than say the Iraq War page due to the personalisation for the purpose of discouraging folks to participate. See, one can discuss a point without arguing the point.
• Third Point, 195.82.106.244 is not vandalising the discussion page. If you check you will see he is a little detail oriented on the wiki process, which I some times fall outside the lines and disregard. He wants it to look just right as per the wiki rules. Must be some left over post BK thing. No wonder this individual followed and continues to understand the BK philosophy. So, if I don't add enough :::: I later see it has been corrected.
• Fourth point, the article has had input and is checked by many recent ExBKs including Mr.Green, and others. Please don't make it seem as though it is just a few, as many have contributed to this page.
• 'Fifth point, I am personally thinking that perhaps you should keep the personal song and dance between you and 195.82.106.244 on your discussion pages and duel it out there. I take the time to contribute to other pages and see my time not spent wisely when I have to monitor this type of thing:” I won't argue the point, just tell 195.82.106.244 to leave the sand box...(paraphrasing here)". This is your intent, is it not?
• Six point, as pointed out by you; you are a part-timer and not one that followed the BK teachings in ernest. So, I would have to review points argued and check them, then side with the correct point. I do corrections and I have had to make my PEACE upon learning when siding too quickly with another and later having to eat my hat for doing so. Today I am not as quick.
• Seven Point, the personal Attacks and I have come to that conclusion are without merit. It would be the Old Poisoning the Well in logic and it doesn't bode well here. If you want to go toe to toe on points here than do so, without carrying on about the forums etc. Forums and site issues must be argued there. Please join one and start a thread there. You may even engage say "AndyH" if you are so lucky. One can dream.
• Eigth point, I actually have great admiration for Avyakt7 Riveros11 in that he is a thinker and is trying in all ernest to validate the cycle and put others questions to rest. This is more than I have seen from others that simply accept and go argue incessantly without trying to using logic, just dogma. I can appreciate that he has even developed a theory albeit with no science to prove it, but impressive!
• Ninth point, let us get back to the discussion that would lead us to an outcome and drop all the non sequiturs.TalkAbout AKA SilentAbout :) PEACE TalkAbout 16:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying Talkabout. Really appreciate it Bud. Below are my replies to each of the points raised by you as numbered above.

First point And I’m struggling already! 89.241.128.107 has raised over 40 citation requests at ]

a) Are you seriously telling me that you consider it acceptable, that he or anyone else that questions that accuracy of statement(s) within the article should be prepared to read the entire Bibliography section to find supporting evidence?

b) Having looked at the Bibliography section as it was at the time of the above edit. I simply cannot accept your assertion that many of the references 89.241.128.107 has requested are to be found there anyway!

Talkabout, I conclude that this is no proper way to edit a wiki article. Please comment.

Second Point I fully agree, but for some much harder than for others!

Third Point Sorry strongly disagree. Here are 2 examples of blatant vandalism of the discussion page by 195.82.106.244. ] ] And then following the threats and abuse on my Talk page re-vandalised here ]. Now here, you can swot up on the Wiki definition of Vandalism]

Can you compare and comment thanks.

Fourth Point Buddy you are making me work now!

(a) Below is a breakdown of the most recent 50 edits on the article between 25/8/06 and 3/10/06

- 195.82.106.244 made 25.

- Talkabout made 5.

- The remaining 20 edits were the work of 13 other editors.

- Of those 13, 8 had their edits entirely reverted mostly without discussion by either 195.82.106.244' or Talkabout.

- Of the 5 remaining editors the only one whose edit was other than a trivial grammatical change was Logic User. And his edit was a complete revert to Talkabout’s last edit!

Sure looks like complete and utter control in the hands of a very, very few to me!

(b) Ah interesting, so there is a behind the scenes ex-bk proof reading team? And by Mr Green, would that be user Green108 on the discussion page archive? Well if Green108 was a recent BK, then it doesn’t look like he paid too much attention. In his most recent entry he stonewalled BKSimonB over his attempts to elicit a minor change to the article whilst attempting to discredit the BK’s historian Jagdish Chandler as an unreliable reference. ] However, As I have already mentioned 195.82.106.244 has recently turned up independent historical references, , which fully support Chandlers record. The fact that 195.82.106.244 precises the above references quite erroneously, as evidence of ‘OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition’ really says it all doesn’t it?

Comments please Bud.

Fifth Point Now don’t frighten me anymore there Talkabout, have you really looked at what’s he’s done to my Talkpage ], why next he might start publicly exposing my friends and family!

Sixth Point Ok, if this is by way of an apology for your previous dismissal of me, then I am genuinely encouraged by it.

Seventh Point Sorry, but after the abusive encounter Avyakt7 Riveros11 went through on the BKI forum, I’ve no desire to enter an arena where someone I believe to be 195.82.106.244 has full editorial powers stacked in his favour. And why go there anyway, when 195.82.106.244', who very possibly is the BKI forum administrator and is, despite his continual denials and cries of ‘personal attack’, already the overriding dominant force, and, I strongly suspect, not once but twice over in his multiple guises as 195.82.106.244' and brahamkumaris.info on this wiki page. If you need further proof of this, Avyakt7 Riveros11 can provide the full header information of the email transcripts he has received where an email from info@brahmakumaris.info is shown to originate from IP address 195.82.106.244.

As with the my vandalism concern please familiarise with the Wiki’s sockpuppet policy ] And get back to me on this

Eighth point Ok Bud, funny way of showing it at times, but as with point 6 that’s encouraging to know.

Nineth point Agreed, really that’s what I want to see too, however I feel the only way to encourage some of the other recent contributors such as "89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 ,BKSimonB or Sethi to return to the discussion is when the vandalism, threats and sockpuppetry that so characterise 195.82.106.244’s aggressive editing style are removed. With regard to this, appreciate if you supply comments to my replies point by point as indicated. Thanks.

Sincerely searchin man 21:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Nice of you to reply point by point. I do thank you for the change in tone as I rather enjoy logical discussions. The light hearted approach is refreshing as in any discussion it helps to laugh; especially when we find out we are wrong! I will do the research and provide a reply. Here is a bit of homework for you since you know BkSimon, which Imam gave said edict which he mentioned. This may provide some opening in the point of discussion he so wished to open and I imagine he has been busy as he hasn’t returned.

So, I have a bit of home work to address from you and will do so. As to Green, well I will place the quick vandalism list so I can have a quick glance and can tell foe and friend. .....244 Moved that:(! See, I receive no favors there, so I am in neutral territory and to answer the question yes I do rely on research or other sources but like the jailed reporters I will not reveal my sources. The point which you did not address but requested earlier, is the Murli point….correct but the word usage of “Mounting a Virgin” in modern day language could be misunderstood. That was my point there!

Your reply will be forth coming and hopefully well researched. Say, do you have any points my way in the change about the occupation of the founder? I need a little help on this one. I still haven’t given up and I am awaiting a reply to that one myself.

So, yea suffer not alone as my page has three helpful hints, but alas I take note that .244 is very detailed and wiki FUZZY and I take it with a grain of salt. I personally left it up there as it just shows a bit of character.

There is the story of a builder, with whom no one raised a question. One day the man set out to build a very large building and kept saying Right, the crew repeated Right and the final crew member told the builder Right! Well, at the end of the day they found themselves inside a circle…not a square (no door to be found) and unable to get out. Finally they raised a question, discussed their problem, compromised and one stood on another and hoisted the third man out. The moral here is, if we agreed upon every thing from a BK point of view we too would find ourselves in a circle (Advertisement/Self Promotion) and unable to tell truth from belief. I have respect for an individuals beliefs but hold more dear the idea of the Right to Information.

PEACETalkAbout 23:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

FYI, see while I was posting your reply .244 went in and wikified….your entry. This unfortunately it is not VANDALISM, it is an obsessive compulsive wikiFUZZY condition!lol Please NOTE the place has some devoted to this very mission!:)As promised I will look into those mentioned but having seen some I think we have a case of wikiFUZZY and not vandalism. TalkAbout 23:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Point of information before I respond; you state "publicly exposing my friends and family". I only mentioned Luis Riveros use of his workplace computers to promote the religious cult he is a member of which is against the University of South Florida's regulations. Is he - because it was not "they" as you state - your friend or your family?

The thing about the objective facts of history is that they do not change whether they are last week or 100 years ago. As someone that has sat down and read years worth of Jagdish Chander's works, which I am pretty sure you have not, to call him a "historian" is laughable. He was the Vishwa Vidyala's publicist. Adi Dev is PR.

If Jagdish Chander was a historian, why ever did he write out of history - and Adi Dev - the failed 1976 End of the World/Destruction prediction? Lekhraj Kirpalani's attempt to give away all the money in the Yagya to the Government of India if the predictions did fail etc? Why did Jagdish Chander engage in the re-writing of Gyan and the Yagya's history from that date along with the other Seniors including the re-editing of the Murlis (God's Words)? Did you ever go to Morning Class? If you doubt any of these facts, go back to Waddy and check them out. She is perfect aware of them and the re-writing.

And, lastly, before you go ahead call everybody "Bud", Bud, get to grips with whether you are talking to a man or a woman. Frankly, I am finding your sexually patronizing, body-consciousness fixation with me a little offensive, in the same manner as a pestering drunk at a bar. Yes, I know they are machines but women can use computers too these days. ( ... file under "all hat and no cattle").

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 23:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Corporeal Founder's occupation and Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram,

Hi.

well, thank goodness someone can actually ask intelligent questions about factual content instead of continuing on the unsubstantiated slur against me.

With regards to the corporeal founder's occupation, here is a picture of the actually premises in Calcutta that Lekhraj Kirpalani did business from;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_050.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_048.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_036.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_042.jpg

I am not so sure about all of the hyperbole. It does not really look that big or glamorous a location . FYI, Sindh is a geographic area not caste. Sindhis are only Hindis that live in the Sindh/Pakistan and of any caste. He and they are not upper class, the Bhaiband were merchants, which makes them 3rd class , had a reputation from being misogynistic and debauched, and were into money primarily. I have citations. There is a old Gujerati saying that, "if you are walking along a road and meet a Cobra snake and Sindhi, kill the Sindhi first". If it is a big issue and has to change, we need to get to primary sources and not just BKWSU PR. I bet most BK don't know half of what is up there.

Lekhraj may have been atypically religious but the fact is he was a business man and not a out of a religious caste. It appears that he was also self-made and not out of a rich family. It might be important to say that he was not not poor or ordinary because the Murlis say the chariot of God was. This is a controversial issue that the PBKs will raise at some point. The predictions suggest that Lekhraj was not the first nor the final medium of Shiva and the BKWSU have written out of history Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram who also played a part in the founding of the Yagya.

• Can we get to actual figures of his wealth and size of estate? The BKWSU are quiet on that front. It could be public record and family of his still alive.

Personally, I think it is such a non-issue. What is so bad about being in business? It is the fact. 195.82.106.244 01:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

.244,

First point, the HP Shack is not called a shack albeit it isn't a full garage. It is called a garage, many have seen the photo and realise that it may very well be impossible to park a car there but it is still called garage. My point being is that in those times that may well have been an illustrious business location for the founder. After all the term location, location is termed by the position and the money/business one can make in said location.

Second Point, his daughter wore a sari once and discarded it off to the servants. This was a story told in the early days by the Elder Brothers and thus illustrates his wealth. A sari being six yards long and if made of the finest silk could pass through a ring without any effort.

Third point, not every jeweler can trade in diamonds....please check this. I do believe it has merit, the photos do show that he was very well groomed and not your average business man.

PEACETalkAbout 16:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about India around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. I have no idea if they had a Diamond Bourse in Calcutta or any business regulations whatsoever. Calcutta was only one outlet, where else did he trade from? I think it is a non-issue. Lekhraj was a businessman and so that sticks. Personally, I think a proper biography would be very interesting but, in my opinion, the BKWSU are just too busy re-writing him as a dead saint or guru to want to bother document the human aspect, his relationship with Sevak Ram and Sevak's part in the evolution of the organization etc.

For example, why all those angelic pictures of Lekhraj despite Shiva's Murlis saying "no pictures" ? Its a contradiction of their faith. Or the BK Faith is a contradiction of Shiva's teachings. 195.82.106.244 13:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

195.82.106.244 continues to attack me without proof

Dear 195.82.106.244,

As I mentioned before I have not posted from any University of South Florida computer.' Want proof? Please do check all IP addresses where I have posted from. For your information, USF is a B class network. Their IP range starts with 131.X.X.X I have not posted from any IP which belongs to that range. .244 You are acting maliciously. Here is my first warning to you Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. according to wikipedia rules. Please check your statements specially if they relate to the integrity of others. You are disclosing my full name and accusing me of something which is not true. --avyakt7 17:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"She's attacking me ... she attacking me ... ". No one is interested. Actually, it was 216.49.220.27 which is the International Academy of Design & Technology - Tampa . Do you teach there too? I suppose I could write to them and have them confirm BUT the article is about the BKWSU not you, so let's focus.

BTW, someone else was using the same IP address around the same time to post REALLY CRAZY stuff on the Adolf Hitler page, see . So I hope that was not you. And if it was not, I would have a word with someone at the faculty there to put an end to it.

This is becoming silly. When are you BKs going to tire of trying to trying to attack my integrity and just deliver some hard documentation? Thanks. 195.82.106.244 01:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Greetings to both Avyak7 and 195.82.106.244 ,

Please let us stop the Bk vs ExBK thing here, you two are behaving like former spouses! From my point of view Avyak7 started off by trying to expose folks on an anonymous forum, several times here. Then when 195.82.106.244 pointed out it was not the thing to do, the throttle was thrown into full gear....then the complaints came in. Avyak7, I have not seen your name here in full print. RELAX!

So, perhaps we need to drop this and go on to the questions/discussions at hand. Oh, Avyakt7 I just want to say that if we cool it for a bit, things will get back to some semblance of reason here. If you keep bringing it up, folks might just figure out what I haven't. Best leave it. 195.82.106.244 Please see that at this point, if Avyak7 should try and disclose anything it is best that I reply to said concerns as he is upset. Some times we start a fire and then it gets away from us and so we must put it out no matter where it started!

So, let us all forgive and forget and continue. TalkAbout 17:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, it is ] not .244. And secondly, for the sake of accuracy, in response to their constant pestering and not backing off, I posted his name a few inches up the page. So more accuracy please.

Thanks Bud, but I am not asking for mediation. 195.82.106.244 23:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Miss 195.82.106.244,

I will be certain to post your full numbers. Sorry, to have offended you dear Miss ;however, I still think it is best that I handle any future disclosures from Avyakt7. Missed the name. I will look for it and remove it once found.

PEACE TalkAbout 23:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

"I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it?" Avyak7

• “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”
• User 195.82.106.244 continues to attack me personally despite first warning

Dear 195.82.106.244,

Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" Please stop attacking other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences “Posting a link to an external source that fits the commonly-accepted threshold for a personal attack, in a manner that incorporates the substance of that attack into Misplaced Pages discussion.” I do not appreciate either that you suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler. I will follow the steps that are stipulated in Misplaced Pages about this matter.

You have also changed the original title posted by TalkAbout. It was “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”

Yes, that is correct. I checked and there was no intervention on behalf of the United Nations - and it was an attempt at personal Mediation - and so I corrected that.

Indeed, this also raises the issue of BKWSU own exaggerated connection with the United Nations - of which the United Nations has cautioned the BKWSU - and that is an issue that we ought to investigate with proper citations at a later date.

If you read above, you will see that I clearly did not "suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler", I stated accurately that someone using the same IP address as you contributed the article on Adolf Hitler. As it is an educational facility that you work in, I suggested that you raise the serious misuse of IT equipment to the faculty members.

If it is a personal attack, would that also not mean that what you started and are continuing to doing is also an ad hominem attack designed to discredit any critical revellations based on citation, e.g. references to your own comments on "the bombs are ready ... they will be used" etc?

" 7) We, humans will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the atomic bomb. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used. " Citations: grouptopic.com, space.com, infidelguy.com. fullcontactpoker.com

I think that it is fairly clear to onlookers that where you are coming from and what you are attempting to do. Your belief in a 5,000 year Cycle of time and "Destruction" as defined by the BKWSU. You start and continue an attack and then accuse another's defense to that attack using legalistic argument targetting the individual to distract for the internal reports they are leaking. It is very common cultic behavior and I caution you to refer back to your Senior Sisters for Shrimat before proceeing with this matter because ultimately it will only reflect badly on the organization, see . If you want to reflect well on the organization, my suggest is to co-operate on revealling and allowing access to the sources, citations and references from within your organization; starting with the Murlis. Thank you. 195.82.106.244 15:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout,

Please see my name above in 195.82.106.244 response to “searchin man.” Please see “searchin man” talk page as well. I know you can edit things out whenever you wish.. Do I need to ask you for permission to do the same?

195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo. I am certain that that is not true. I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it? This information is relevant to this wikipedia article, since it demonstrates that 195.82.106.244 is not a “non-biased” editor and thus, 244 is not qualified to write about Brahma Kumaris in an impartial manner. I needed to disclose that information here because is relevant to this article.

On the other hand, 195.82.106.244 discloses my real full name here and in another user talk page, threatens to contact the faculty at USF (my previous employer), searches and publishes about my personal information which is non relevant to this article. See the difference, TalkAbout? Finally.. I am not upset at all. All I want is for this article to be an accurate reflection of Brahma Kumaris, would you let BKs have an input on this article? avyakt7

Look if you want to continue this, I imagine I can not stop you. As far as to any membership in a forum being a reason for disqualifying him/her from participating in activities on wikipedia I would like to point out the following. No individual is to be singled out...sussed out as a means to discredit his/her participation on a wiki. They could very well be members of the Gay BK forum and it wouldn’t make a grand difference here. Discuss the points here, point by point. Forum issues take to the forum, go to the OZ forum, go to the infogami blog.

• From my point, I see there is no real open space for discussion in the OZ forum run by the BKs which you are a member of.
• I don't see your theory up there (OZ forum), nor it being discussed by other members.
• It appears to me that other active BKs are doing well and good in the BKinfo forum. It serves not only XBKs, but PBKs, active BKs , folks seeking spiritual discussions and NBKs (folks just wanting information, including journalists).
• So, if they have a wide array of folks, why the problems? I did put in a second request to have you approved, but I will send in another asking it to be withdrawn given your goal, which would be to have individuals banned from wikipedia.
• I see that the problems on the forum and Here started when you began to pick/squabble with other members on both venues.
• I see that despite the fact that you bit off more than you can chew, you are still dead set on this (personalising things).

Do you think it would be fair to remove yours but leave his/hers up? Will you refrain from further activities to EXPOSE others. This is going the way of scientology in my view. I don't think threatening exposure, attacking the person rather than the substance/points merits well from a scholarly point of view and it is destructive to the process of communication/participation and good will.

I have the highest respect for people following their spiritual beliefs, having gone down that road myself and this process is to place the facts out there and let the individual decide on the path they are taking or if they want to continue on such path. Is also an information source for people on a global level that seek information on said organization. You shouldn't fear information, you shouldn't be fearful of the tenets being in the open, nor the practices. The higher road would be for example: Yes, we do belief we will be deities and yes we believe X and Y. Rather than trying to hide the sun with your thumb. Suppression of information is not wise nor a scholarly path.

I will ask you these three questions directly:

• Do you believe you will be a deity?
• Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul?
• Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu?

Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 15:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

avyakt7 states, ".195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo ". You mean, "did not have any". What I said according to the Misplaced Pages archive was;

"I have absolutely no representative powers over any other contributor nor the website http://brahmakumaris.info. To the best of my awareness there is nothing that you could say constitutes a team effort, or if there is I am not party to it. I take personal benefit from and contribute to the above mentioned website, on an ad hoc basis, but to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that would constitute a team or organization effort or again, if there is, I am not aware of any. If pressed, I could tell you very little about any contributor to http://brahmakumaris.info other than what they have made public on that or the previous xBKChat.com forum and prefer it that way. Personally, I would say it is all in the public domain now."

Accuracy over slur, please. 195.82.106.244