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| :I am not a negationist. I simply do not buy whatever the Spanish government says, specially when there is no evidence to support it. Three cars were damaged as people climbed on top of them and spent hours there. But, no one was injured. No violence whatsoever. And two persons went to jail because of that. I suppose that is okay for you. I hope you are just not well informed about the matter, as the alternative is certainly not easy to digest. Regarding the list, it is actually surprising there is no Spanish person in it. There were lots of Spanish people that were imprisoned because of their political ideas before and during Franco's dictatorship. ] (]) 23:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | :I am not a negationist. I simply do not buy whatever the Spanish government says, specially when there is no evidence to support it. Three cars were damaged as people climbed on top of them and spent hours there. But, no one was injured. No violence whatsoever. And two persons went to jail because of that. I suppose that is okay for you. I hope you are just not well informed about the matter, as the alternative is certainly not easy to digest. Regarding the list, it is actually surprising there is no Spanish person in it. There were lots of Spanish people that were imprisoned because of their political ideas before and during Franco's dictatorship. ] (]) 23:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | ||
| :By the way, Gandhi (who is in the list, as expected) was charged by sedition. Exactly the same charge that Cuixart and Sanchez are now facing. How ironic. Shall we remove Gandhi from the list too? | :By the way, Gandhi (who is in the list, as expected) was charged by sedition. Exactly the same charge that Cuixart and Sanchez are now facing. How ironic. Shall we remove Gandhi from the list too? ] (]) 23:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | ||
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Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sanchez
As per discussion above, I'll add Jordi Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners, since this is stated by some mainstream media and political parties and fits the definition. See references. Thanks! --Jey (talk) 22:52, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
October 2017 content dispute
@Victorjjp and 212.169.202.5: Please discuss your dispute here. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, i will talk here. As for the controversy, as you can see here https://www.ecestaticos.com/file/74a2836b0ca6c66afce9f38788f15376/1508183799-2017-10-16-auto-prision-provisional-comunicada-y-sin-fianza.pdf. they are not in jail because of their political views. A spanish judge (independent from the government and their politics) resolved they wanted to reoffend vi in the crimes they are accused of. The successor of one of the prosecuted has literally said they are going to commit the crimes again anyway (https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/17/catalunya/1508229944_368994.html) so the judge chose the preventive prison. You may agree or not with the decision but they are not political prisoners. Actually the head of the independentist movement is not in prison/not being judged at the moment. Stop shoehorning your opinions on objective matters
Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart completely fit the category of political prisoner. This is clear just by following the criteria described in the very same page we are talking about. Some of the criteria to classify a prisoner as political prisoner are:
In AI's usage, the term includes any prisoner whose case has a significant political element: whether the motivation of the prisoner's acts, the acts in themselves, or the motivation of the authorities.
...
In AI's use of the term, here are some examples of political prisoners:
...
a person accused or convicted of an ordinary crime committed in a political context, such as at a demonstration by a trade union or a peasants' organization;
Cuixart and Sanchez definitely meet that criteria (as well as other criteria listed in the page).
The judicial sentence has been challenged by many lawyers in Spain and abroad. Some examples:
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Junqueras-Demanem-PP-Fiscalia-Sanchez_0_1888611317.html
Lots of facts fully contradict the sentence. There was no violence. Not a single person injured. Additionally, a video has been released that proves the jailed persons actually requested the people to cease demonstrating. In the sentence, however, the opposite is said. See video in the following link: http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171017/432142495111/video-jordi-cuixart-jordi-sanchez-disolver-manifestacion-economia.html
Moreover, multiple personalities have already referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See:
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/we-have-political-prisoners-again-says-catalan-president
Due to all this evidence, Cuixart and Sanchez should be listed in the list of notable political prisoners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorjjp (talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// To reduce controversy, and as a matter of principle, the organization's policy applies only to prisoners who have not committed or advocated violence. Thus, there are political prisoners who do not fit the narrower criteria for POCs. The organisation defines the differences as follows:
There was violence, as of broken cars, and police unable to leave the building they were in.
https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20170922/248725570_0.html http://www.publico.es/politica/fiscalia-presenta-denuncia-sedicion-protestas-catalunya.html
The multiple personalities sources you quote all refer to quotations of people in the independentist movement, and is not backed by any international or even national recognition.
A lot of multiple personalities are against the use of force to not respect the law too.
And again you quote a video 9 hours into the riot to try to undermine the reputation and decision of a spanish judge, you said the protest was non violent but the people acussed are literally on top of a broken police car. Again, just stop forcing your own opinion and discrediting the work of spanish justice
As you can see the party of the acussed insists on comitting the same crimes and continue in his disturbance of the police work and the maintaining of the order. The preventive prison is not a matter of political views but a matter of safety.
For some reason i cannot see your further comments but in the edit page i can see that you are defending the political implications of the detention in a personal and biased opinion about the spanish justice not being impartial and democratic.I cannot discuss this any further because you are assuming one of the pillars of the democratic state to be false. I think the possibility of them being arrested because of their presunt crimes and the possibility of them commiting the crime again and not because a full-fledged national conspiracy between the government and the judicial power is more plausible and they should be kept out of the category of 'poliical prisoners' as they are just normal prisoners who just work in politics
@212.169.202.5: Stop deleting my content even in the talk page. If you are not willing to discuss perhaps you have no place in Misplaced Pages.
I am adding again the deleted text:
To your points, stating that "A spanish judge (independent from the government and their politics)" is simply your opinion. The lack of independence of the Spanish Justice is well known. See:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/06/07/actualidad/1496827709_980747.html
Many lawyers have said that this is not even a fault. Even if it was, the decision to provisionally jail them until the hearing would make sense for a murder or similar. In this case, it is completely unjustifiable. This also meets the following criteria listed in this page:
c. if, for political motives, the length of the detention or its conditions are clearly out of proportion to the offence the person has been found guilty of or is suspected of; d. if, for political motives, he or she is detained in a discriminatory manner as compared to other persons; or,
Answering to your new claims:
The multiple personalities sources you quote all refer to quotations of people in the independentist movement, and is not backed by any international or even national recognition.
That is simply not true. Multiple Members of European Parlament have condemned the imprisonment. They have also referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/meps-protest-incarceration-of-civil-society-leaders-in-front-of-european-parliament
just stop forcing your own opinion and discrediting the work of spanish justice
The links that I provided (and you deleted) show how Justice in Spain has a very low degree of independence. And the sources are certainly not supporting independence of Catalonia: a Spanish newspaper and the FMI. So, I am not discrediting Spain. Unfortunately, Spain does that to itself.
Overall, I have provided an overwhelming amount of evidence that proofs your claims are not sound.
ADDITIONAL CONTENT: Amnesty International has requested the set Cuixart and Sanchez free as the charges are "excessive." See: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur41/7308/2017/en/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorjjp (talk • contribs) 19:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Did not delete them on purpose, i'm still new in wikipedia formatting. Your evidence was discredited by yourself as the only definition of political prisoner you could use discard violence and i provided evidence proving they were violent protests.
That is simply not true. Multiple Members of European Parlament have condemned the imprisonment. They have also referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/meps-protest-incarceration-of-civil-society-leaders-in-front-of-european-parliament
The article you posted show them defending them as leaders of a pacific protest showing they have little to no knowledge of situation and facts.
Many lawyers have said that this is not even a fault. Even if it was, the decision to provisionally jail them until the hearing would make sense for a murder or similar. In this case, it is completely unjustifiable. This also meets the following criteria listed in this page:
You also seem to have little knowledge in the reasons for the preventive prison in Spain, is not only related to the magnitude of the crime is also influenced to the possibility of the criminals doing the crime again, fleeing the country or destroying proofs and the judge considered them reasonable.
Again we go in the same direction, you dont agree with the judge's resolve and you personally think it is because of the politicization of the judicial power, and your proof is El País a diary you discredited in past edits calling all of their articles lies.
The overwhelming amount of evidence are personal views on the judicial sistem and self-rebutted definitions of political prisoners. My claim is still solid and the should not be considered political prisoners. Again, i'm sorry if i edited your content but it was by mistake — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Did not delete them on purpose, i'm still new in wikipedia formatting.
Apology accepted.
Your evidence was discredited by yourself as the only definition of political prisoner you could use discard violence and i provided evidence proving they were violent protests.
Again, there was no violence. Adding post-its to the police car and climbing on top of them is certainly not a violent action. I have reasons to believe you live in Sevilla, so unless you were visiting Barcelona on that day you did not see what happened. Please, provide graphical evidence of violence. Otherwise, I would stop discussing about this point, as you have not given any evidence so far.
The article you posted show them defending them as leaders of a pacific protest
Again, same as before. No violence whatsoever.
is not only related to the magnitude of the crime is also influenced to the possibility of the criminals doing the crime again, fleeing the country or destroying proofs
What crime? Asking people to go back home? Destroying proofs? Which ones? There is video evidence that they never resorted to violence. This is not a corruption case where there are books to destroy. Actually, there are many corruption cases where the people being investigated were not sentenced to preventive prison, even if they COULD destroy evidence. Honestly, unless you have some evidence to back your claims it is clear there was no reason to imprison them. Even Amnesty International has requested their release.
you dont agree with the judge
Not me. Many people, including lawyers, judges, politicians, both in Spain and internationally.
and your proof is El País a diary you discredited in past edits
Editorial articles in El Pais have been found to contain blatant lies in multiple occasions. The article I cite, however, simply refers to a report from the Council of Europe (a EU organization). Please, stop comparing apples to oranges.
- (edit conflict)I'm on the verge of deleting the whole section, per what I stated in my edit summary to maybe balance things out a little. The amount of discussion above about who is a political prisoner and who isn't -- we could add lots of people, and I mean lots, and the amount of people vouching to say 'He's not a political prisoner!' 'She should be added to the list!' -- not worth having this list. not (talk/contribs) 20:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- @My name is not dave: I have no objection to that. If the list continues to be in the page, however, I believe Mr. Cuixart and Mr. Sanchez should be in the list. Specially now that even Amnesty International is calling for their immediate release. On the other hand, it might be worthwhile to carefully curate the current list in the article.
Again, same as before. No violence whatsoever.
Again, there was no violence. Adding post-its to the police car and climbing on top of them is certainly not a violent action. I have reasons to believe you live in Sevilla, so unless you were visiting Barcelona on that day you did not see what happened. Please, provide graphical evidence of violence. Otherwise, I would stop discussing about this point, as you have not given any evidence so far.
No point in arguing so far, i posted all the evidence about 3 broken police cars and your only argument is you were not there so its not true That level of delusion and not acknowledging the other arguments is not going to take us anwyhere.
Also El Pais lies when its useful to me is just mind-boggling, as for the crime is SEDITION, i just stated that hours ago, but youre misinterpreting and not refering to it on purpose
If you really believe that a full legal document is lying in the destruction of the cars and the violence to police agents is up to you, but again keep your conspiracy theories for yourself, I wasn't in the moon landing too, just in case you want to edit that page too.
I feel like i've lost a lot of time on this, and i don't want to change your mind, but it seems like at least for now the page is not going to be your political pamphlet.
- Look, Amnesty International has called for their immediate release. You know who is listed in this page as one of the organizations that define who is a political prisoner? I suppose you already guessed it (assuming you read the page, of course): it is Amnesty International. Honestly, I do not know how many other evidences you need. Try to be a little bit humble, please. I will keep pushing for the addition of Mr. Cuixart and Mr. Sanchez to this page, or the removal of the list.
@My name is not dave: Sorry if i bothered you with this whole issue, but people using wikipedia to push their personal agenda and propaganda is not acceptable in my opinion. Wouldn't like to destroy the work of others deleting the section.
- Well, Mr/Ms IP., nobody owns anything here. Working by consensus, we can create quality content -- and sometimes that involves sacrificing the work of others for the sake of article quality. I have no need to reiterate, but that list is a little WP:LISTCRUFTy, the inclusion of people there seems quite arbitrary. Why is there no Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn there, for example? This list could go on forever with notable political prisoners (in the sense that they have a Misplaced Pages article). @EvergreenFir: -- what do you make of this? Also pinging Inford, who warned the above IP about edit warring. not (talk/contribs) 21:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- @My name is not dave: Will try to comment tonight. Just got out of meeting. Now family obligation. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- @My name is not dave and EvergreenFir: In addition to the call for immediate release from Amnesty International (see https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur41/7308/2017/en/), EFA (an organization of political parties across EU) has already referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners (see: http://www.e-f-a.org/services/news-single-view/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=1088&cHash=73d007beece71f2c330e832442bff1ed). Therefore, if the list of prisoners is going to continue in the article, I would advocate for the inclusion of Cuixart and Sanchez.
Now the days have passed, even more people agree that jordis are not political prisoners.
- It is funny as your first link shows a video where one person says they are political prisoners and another says they are not. Which one should we believe?
The european meeting which had place this week showed full support for the spanish government and his actions. here you have an article with the european comission.
- This other link mentions that multiple Catalan politicians refer to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. Nothing about anyone referring to them as non-political prisoners. Do you really read the articles that you link? It doesn't seem so.
The international amnesty document you refer to asks for their release (as they asked the release of some members of ETA or IRA for example) but doesnt call them political prisoners at all,
- Have I said they do so? But, it is interesting that one of the organizations defining criteria to qualify someone as political prisoner (as stated in this very same wikipedia article) is calling for their immediate release. If they believe they are not guilty of what Spanish justice is accusing them of, then Amnesty International is implicitly acknowledging Cuixart and Sanchez are in jail because of their political ideas.
your last source is even more discreditable having this disclaimer in the bottom of the page
The information on this website concerns only the author, the European Parliament is not responsible for the use and content of the information.
- So? It is an article by an association of political parties within the EU. Neither EFA or I have said this article is an official EU statement.
Your inclusion claim is more and more unfounded as days pass.
- I hope you do not say this based on the links or comments that you just made. They are totally unsound, and I would even dare to say, they are laughable. Next time, try to use better sources.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 07:34, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
:It is funny as your first link shows a video where one person says they are political prisoners and another says they are not. Which one should we believe?
The first link shows a person calling political prisoners and getting refuted, dont be oblivious on purpose
- No, YOU think her arguments are being refuted. That does not mean they are. Anyway, thanks for letting us know that Podemos (the 3rd party in Spain) considers them as political prisoners. I was not aware of.
:This other link mentions that multiple Catalan politicians refer to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. Nothing about anyone referring to them as non-political prisoners. Do you really read the articles that you link? It doesn't seem so.
The other link shows the spokesman of the european comission not acknowledging the claim the politicians (of the same party of the prisoners) made.
- Then you must have linked the wrong article. The one you linked does not contain any statement like the one you mention.
:Have I said they do so? But, it is interesting that one of the organizations defining criteria to qualify someone as political prisoner (as stated in this very same wikipedia article) is calling for their immediate release. If they believe they are not guilty of what Spanish justice is accusing them of, then Amnesty International is implicitly acknowledging Cuixart and Sanchez are in jail because of their political ideas.
Your mental gymnastics are just reaching stratosferical levels, they do not say they are political prisoners even you put the source as a proof for them being political prisoners?
- Honestly, I do not know why it's so difficult for you to understand things. The purpose of Amnesty International (according to their webpage) is to fight abuses of human rights worldwide. So, if they say the imprisonment is wrong and call for the immediate release of the prisoners, there must be a reason. Can you image which one? Come on, it is not so difficult.
:So? It is an article by an association of political parties within the EU. Neither EFA or I have said this article is an official EU statement.
No, its an article wrote by a guy and doesnt represent any official statement, as you said yourself
- Wow! You really have reading understanding problems. I can imagine the article is written by a "guy" (although it might be a "girl" too, no idea why you assume it is a man). The article, however, is not a personal one. It is a statement by the European Free Alliance, which is not a "guy" but an association of political parties within the EU.
By the way EFA is a coalition of independentists and regionalist political parties, which is much worse than being the opinion of a guy, is literally supporting the crime because of their common political interests — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 21:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
I can also add another testimony http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171019/lesmes-cgpj-sanchez-cuixart-no-presos-politicos-6363881 The president of the Tribunal Supremo and Consejo General del Poder Judicial one of the most important judicial entities in Spain, and independent from the constitutional tribunal.
Summing up i've contributed official EU statements, one of the main politicians of the biggest party in the opossition (maybe they love the government too, living in your big conspiracy delusion) the main spanish media, and the OFFICIAL legal document with the proofs of their violence and the reasons they are in prison. You've contributed an obtuse and changing (sometimes even contradictory) definition of political prisoners, discrediting facts because they are laughable (as in, contrary to your opinion) ignoring every single proof sent your way and in general you've moved goalposts for 3 days. You are entitled to your own opinion but i've proven that there's more than REASONABLE doubt that they are political prisoners, maybe when the whole situation of catalonia's independence is solved we'll be able to get more things in clear but at the moment you're just turning a deaf ear, and not contributing anything whatsoever.
the OFFICIAL legal document with the proofs of their violence
- That does not prove anything. It is just a statement by a judge in Spain. And we all know how independent judges are in Spain (it rank worse than countries such as Tanzania, Iran, Morocco or Romania). Same thing with the article from El Periodico.
- I am not discrediting your claims. You are actually discrediting them by linking articles that contradict your words, as well as showing acute reading comprehension problems. Anyway, you are brining the debate to a level where it is not worth to keep discussing. If you provide sound evidence of violence during the peaceful demonstration, I will be glad to look at it, and reevaluate the classification of Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 20:20, 21 October 2017 (UTC) 212.169.202.5 (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
The legal resolution of the judge of the process is not just a statement, she has all the proofs (that are listed on the document, not that you're gonna admit them anyway) and all my documents have made my points stronger. Also you're recurring to ad-hominem now that you've nothing whatsoever to back you up. You just avoid all the points given to you so for my part the debate is over too. We reached no consensus whatsoever and you made no valid points so in my opinion the list should be kept as it is.
- IT IS a statement. The "proofs" are just a collection of words written by the judge (or even worse, the Guardia Civil). There are no pics or videos of the violence. Do you know why? Because there was not. That is the reason why you could not present proofs against my claims. Actually, there are videos of quite the opposite: Cuixart and Sanchez asking people to end the demonstration. Just in case you do not know, every single political prisoner has been sent to jail because of a "crime" that some judge decided to forge. The words "political prisoner" do not appear in the sentences. That is the case here too. All the "evidence" in the sentence is a bunch of lies, as the media footage and all the testimonies of people present there shows.
- I am not going to comment again on your documents (or your understanding of them). Victorjjp (talk) 22:51, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
The "proofs" are just a collection of words written by the judge (or even worse, the Guardia Civil)
All the "evidence" in the sentence is a bunch of lies,
The damage to the police cards ascended to 130k€, as my last comment wikipedia is an objective and imparcial site, and you're just borderline negationist at this point. I hope mods solve this issue the best they can.
- I am not a negationist. I simply do not buy whatever the Spanish government says, specially when there is no evidence to support it. Three cars were damaged as people climbed on top of them and spent hours there. But, no one was injured. No violence whatsoever. And two persons went to jail because of that. I suppose that is okay for you. I hope you are just not well informed about the matter, as the alternative is certainly not easy to digest. Regarding the list, it is actually surprising there is no Spanish person in it. There were lots of Spanish people that were imprisoned because of their political ideas before and during Franco's dictatorship. Victorjjp (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- By the way, Gandhi (who is in the list, as expected) was charged by sedition. Exactly the same charge that Cuixart and Sanchez are now facing. How ironic. Shall we remove Gandhi from the list too? Victorjjp (talk) 23:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 22:56, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 21:38, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Edit warring = full protection
Please resubmit if longer is needed. There is a place at WP:rfpp with instructions on requesting an edit.Dlohcierekim (talk) 19:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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