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Revision as of 14:50, 8 November 2004

Well, I always thought that the article should be under Illyria, but now there are quite a few pages that link to Ancient Illyria. Should we change all those articles to point to Illyria? At the very least we should probably change the links in the History of Albania series. Dori 15:02, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)

Ancient Illyria is redirected to "Illyria". We have to change the links in the orientation tables of the History of Albania series. In other cases, the change is not strictky necessary. ~~

Done. I also fixed some of the double redirects. Dori 23:13, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)

Nonsense?

Moved this from article. Seems patent nonsense, but if it isn't, rewrite and put back in. Wyllium 23:41, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

It isn't nonsense, but it's a copyvio, so I'm going to delete it from here. RickK 23:42, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

It was misplaced anyway, that's about Illyria (television). --Shallot

Fwiw, I've just moved Illyria (television) to Illyria (Angel) — OwenBlacker 23:28, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

i lirë

The Albanian transliteration i lirë translates to a free person.

Albanian "i lirë" has nothing to with the Illyrians.

"Lirë" is a term borrowed by the ancestors of the Albanians from Latin "liber"="free". ("b" between the vowels disappears on Latin words borrowed in Albanian, just like in the word "horse" lat. cabalus -> alb. kalë.)

The name of Illyria was used long before the Romans came in the Balkans. Bogdan | Talk 17:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

...ancient civilization related to present-day Albania.

This article is about the ancient civilization related to present-day Albania.

I contest that. It seems that Illyrians have nothing to do with Albania, except the teritory.

There is no proof there is any connection. There's a text written in Messapic (Messapians were an Illyrian tribe) that says:

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi

It has no resemblence whatsover with today's Albanian. We should look for the ancestors of Albanians in Dacia, Moesia or Pannonia. Bogdan | Talk 17:53, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(ITYM Dalmatia, not Dacia? Anyway...)

Ancient Dalmatians were Illyrians. Anyway, see this table that shows how phonetical features diverged from the proto-indo-european in various languages. Albanian is closest to Dacian.

I think it'd be fair to rephrase the intro sentence to not be so definite, but it does seem quite likely that the Albanians have a few common genes with the Illyres just like the neighbouring Slavic peoples do. --Joy 11:03, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Of course. But it's about the language/culture than about the genes. For example, in the 8th century, a large part of today's Romania was assimilated by Slavs, only to be re-assimilated by the Romanians before the 11th century. Before Nationalism, assimilation was as easy as learning a foreign language. :) Bogdan | Talk 12:49, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That text proves nothing. The tribe could have used a different dialect or language.

It is believed that Messapian is an Illyrian dialect because of 1) the funeral graves look very similar to the Illyrian ones 2) many proper names are also common to those in Illyria

Also, although Albanian is thought to have derived from Ilyrian, I seriously doubt you can find anyone who will say that knowing Albanian means knowing Illyrian.

It is "thought" ? Since quite a number of linguists believe that Illyrian and Albanians are not related, I think we should use the NPOV policy.

In most historical texts it's pretty well accepted that Albanians are descendent of Illyrians. That doesn't mean it's true, but I wouldn't accept a minority opinion, or original research as more authoritative. Dori | Talk 15:56, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

This is not an original research, but yes, it may be a minority opinion, especially among Albanian historians/linguists, but NPOV tells us to says to say the arguments of both parties and let the reader decide. That's why I created the Origin of Albanians page. Bogdan | Talk 16:55, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sure we do tell all sides, but we also emphasize the majority opinion, and likewise, we don't bother to mention any crackpot theories. Are there even two parties like you say? It's not just Albanians vs the rest of the world, you can find plenty of non-Albanian historians (I would say the majority with the exception of most Serb historians) who say it's very likely that the Albanians descended from the Illyrians. Dori | Talk 17:14, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

There are also some Romanian linguists that use this theory to explain the common Romanian-Albanian words. I am not sure what would be the purpose of this claim of the Serb historians, since if the Albanians were not formed in Albania, most likely forming place would be in Eastern Serbia. :-) Bogdan | Talk 17:34, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is likely possible that Albanians have Illyrian blood (but no more so than Serbs, Bosnians, or Croats), however it is entirely impossible that the Albanian language derives from Illyrian due to the fact that modern Albanian is a satem language and Illyrian was a centum/kentum language. It is impossible for a satem language to transform into a centum one or vice versa (unless there is a change in its subtrate, which is not the case with Albanian). I agree that there are some historians who believe that Albanian is the descendant of Illyrian, but none of these historians explain how a centum language became a satem one. This has been explained in more depth by some Albanian historians who do not agree with the Illyrian origin of Albanians theory such as Dr. Kaplan Resuli, Dr. Adrian Vebiu, Dr. Fatos Ljubonja.