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A latecomer to the discussion

I looked through and tentatively edited the article BEFORE seeing how much had been discused already here, on the Talk Page.

It's a key requirement, in writing about this elusive subject, to disentangle several related but separate issues (it is also rather important to know some Russian):

1. Did Lenin use or even invent this phrase? If he didn't write «полезные дураки», even in the missing letter to Klara Zetkin, why is the phrase so repeatedly attributed to him?

2. If the earliest usage in the West is immediately post-war, with one very striking Russian instance from 1941, then why has no one tracked the phrase through Stalin's work? Historically and psychologically, that seems a more probably context in some ways.

3. A third source, that no one has considered, apparently - though revelations in this quarter have appeared since the early 1990s - is the private, internal language of Communist Parties around the world. How did they discuss among themselves their occasional, always temporary, alliances with Social Democrats, Socialists and, latterly, the Peace Movement?

Despite Mr Upland's rejection of the example, the "Lenin quotation" about the West selling the Soviets the rope with which they themselves will later be strung up strikes me as a clear parallel with the simplification represented by the "useful idiot" controversy. Some would surely say, with approval, that these "pithy" quotations boost Lenin's reputation among those who admire his cunning and ruthlessness.

The Russian Reader website has recently promised to publish in translation the 1920s set of articles about Lenin's language by noted literary specialists and edited by Vladimir Mayakovsky.

I'm curious - was he really a great orator?

I never much enjoyed reading him, in Russian or in English.John Crowfoot (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, John, for your comments. However, I think we need evidence. We can pontificate, postulate, prevaricate, and even procrastinate. But we need evidence. Sure, a lot of useless geniuses have said, decades after Lenin died, that he used the phrase, but none of them have provided proof. Maybe he said it in his sleep. Maybe he dreamed it. Maybe he said it in a language that has not yet been invented. Maybe he used semaphore in one of his speeches. Maybe he raised his eyebrow in a suggestive way. Maybe he transmitted it in Morse Code when he was using a urinal. Maybe aliens transmitted his message from Uranus. Or maybe he didn't say it. I don't know, I wasn't there, and Richard Nixon erased the tape. Maybe Bigfoot ate Nixon. Again, I wasn't there. Maybe the Loch Ness Monster ate Bigfoot and wiped its bottom with the US Constitution. I don't know. I wasn't a witness, despite those incriminating photos. Maybe President Trump's hair is a fuzzy logic bar code. I have never explored that possibility. I don't get paid enough moolah. Maybe the Loch Ness Monster was swallowed by a black hole that you were kind enough to bequeath to posterity. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But where's the evidence??? Set controls to the heart of Uranus.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:10, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

And someone has now put Lenin back at the top of this article as though the attribution is certain! That's not right.

The Safire article is good, but it's striking that it was written way back in 1987. Surely someone has tried again since then to find usage of the phrase (in English, Russian or German) before the Second World War, never mind a direct derivation from Vladimir Lenin (Ulyanov)?

FYI Jack Upland - the exchange between Lenin and Chicherin does contain some interesting conspiratorial instructions (translated below).

One rather innocent thought. Since everything good came from Lenin, and Stalin would rewrite his own works to suit the current situation, but showed a certain reluctance to touch his precedessor's immortal texts, it could be that the Soviet side also participated in giving the phrase an earlier origin and more illustrious source. I, for one, see NO conflict between the attitudes enshrined in this cynical phrase and the way Lenin thought, spoke and behaved.

John Crowfoot (talk) 03:07, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

The Lenin-Chicherin exchange of the early 1920s (quoted above, only in Russian) concerned the British Labour Party's proposal at the Genoa Conference to recognise Georgia's independence. It may give some indirect credence to two widely misattributed Lenin sayings, but to my mind the third paragraph opens with words that are just as pertinent:

"Next. Top Secret. It would suit us if the Genoa discussions broke down ... but not so that we get the blame. Think this over with L and Yoffe and drop me a line. Of course, this must not be written down, even in classified documents. Return this letter to me and I'll burn it."

That document, however, was preserved and not burnt. John Crowfoot (talk) 03:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, we discussed this before. Sure, Lenin plotted to wreck the conference. However, the British Labour Party were not "useful idiots" for Lenin in the meaning of the phrase, rather they were a nuisance as the quote shows. Hence, this hardly seems relevant...--Jack Upland (talk) 11:52, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Lede

The lede mentions the Lenin theory for the origin of the term, but as the body of the article explains, there's no evidence for this theory actually being true. The Oxford English Dictionary, which I consider to be highly reliable, gives the earliest known usage of the term as coming from a NY Times article in 1948: "L'Umanita said the Communists would give the 'useful idiots' of the left-wing Socialist party the choice of merging with the Communist party or getting out.". The lede shouldn't give so much prominence to a theory with so little evidence. The phrase appears to be a term used primarily in the West during the Cold War, and not to have originated from the Soviet Union. As the OED notes, "The phrase does not seem to reflect any expression used within the Soviet Union." -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Article says otherwise. Lede summarizes RS supported content in article. SPECIFICO talk 22:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't a source. You're welcome to fix problems in the body, but don't insert material that's directly contradicted by OED into the lede. I cited OED directly above - you can see it in green. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Straw man. @BullRangifer: and @Sagecandor: and @Moscowamerican: cited RS in the article. SPECIFICO talk 07:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is the authority on English etymologies. It's much more authoritative than the similarly named, but very different Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms. The former is a major project to document the English language. The latter is a light-hearted work written by a single person. It may be a fun read, but when it's contradicted by the OED, it's almost certainly wrong. The OED says that:

1. The phrase "useful idiot" is only documented from 1948 onwards, and
2. The phrase doesn't correspond to anything used in the Soviet Union.

The Lenin theory probably gets far too much space overall in this article. It's a dubious theory, and Lenin is almost certainly not the origin of the English phrase "useful idiot," which can only be documented from 1948 and didn't enter into wide usage until the mid-to-late 1950s. In other words, the Lenin theory is folk etymology, not scientific etymology. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:53, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Straw woman. The lede must summarize the article content. Find RS narrative that supports your POV. SPECIFICO talk 16:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

For the last time, the Oxford English Dictionary is my source. I don't even know what you mean by "straw man" here. What's the straw man I'm attacking? Just citing the name of a random fallacy doesn't mean you have a point. Now instead of stalking me on Misplaced Pages, go edit an article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:49, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

What you don't even know is irrelevant. What is relevant is WP guideline WP:LEDE. We are all responsible for knowing site policies and guidelines. Please see WP:LEDE and cut out the straw man arguments about your cherrypicked source that is at odds with the mainstream narrative in the article content. Once you've read the site guideline, perhaps you'll see why you should undo your insertion. SPECIFICO talk 21:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually, what I don't know is highly relevant. You see, there's this thing called language, and if you don't use it, other people don't know what's in your head. So if you just say the word "strawman" over and over again without explaining what you mean by it, then nobody but you will know what you're trying to say. In any case, pick some other article to disrupt. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree the OED should be cited saying that, "The phrase does not seem to reflect any expression used within the Soviet Union". I don't think it necessarily has to be in the lead. The OED is a reliable source, and this statement clearly fits in with the rest of the article. The phrase arose in the West in the 1940s, and doesn't seem to have any origin in the Soviet Bloc. I don't understand what the objection is. I think we need to mention Lenin, because it is famously attributed to him. In fact, the quotation probably wouldn't not have become famous if people had not attributed it to Lenin.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

• In fact the expression was widely used in the Soviet Union. But this needs to be sourced of course. My very best wishes (talk) 22:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Some things are widely used but never put in writing (for good reason, e.g. the discussion on this page.) Moreover Safire the reformed Nixon-era pundit is not a scholar nor was he in on the diplomatic and intelligence circles that Spruille Braden inhabited during the post-WW2 period. SPECIFICO talk 23:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

The OED says there was no corresponding phrase in use in the Soviet Union. As for Spruille Braden, I'm puzzled as to why you're holding him up as a reliable source for what Stalin said. He made the remark about Stalin once in a speech, while talking about people he (Braden) considered useful idiots. He didn't claim to have done any scholarship on the issue, and there's no indication he had any special knowledge about what Stalin said in private. Basically, you're saying that because one random person once attributed the phrase to Stalin, we should mention that attribution, regardless of the scholarship that says otherwise. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

The OED is referring to published sources it may have accessed. Braden was at the highest levels of diplomacy and security clearance and has much more extensive knowledge of Stalin's internal communications. His conclusion was published and is RS, it is not a self-published after-dinner rumination or youtube meander and should not be misrepresented as mere speculation. SPECIFICO talk 01:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a source that makes any of those claims? Can you point to a source that says Braden was an expert on the internal dealings of the Kremlin? You're just making all of this up whole cloth. An American diplomat in Latin America once gave a speech in which he said, in passing, that Stalin called naïve liberals "useful idiots." You're building that up into some piece of scholarship by an expert on Stalin's private discussions. Really, just stop. You're turning this article into a battleground that it doesn't have to be. -Thucydides411 (talk) 05:47, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree. You can't dismiss sources like the OED and the Library of Congress in favour of your own personal speculation.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I believe that this concern has been fully addressed by @My very best wishes: in the thread at the bottom of this page "his sources...inconclusive", not to mention the Spruille Braden reference, so I believe we're ready to fix the lede. . SPECIFICO talk 17:59, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

No, it hasn't.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

"Cold War Usage" section

Since this term originated during the Cold War, there should be a section on "Cold War Usage." Currently, the article only discusses the origns of the terms and one example of modern usage. The term was used during the Cold War primarily by the political Right to attack liberals perceived as weak on Communism. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:16, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Popular Attributions

The term has been popularly attributed to Lenin, and sometimes to Stalin. These attributions are almost certainly erroneous, as the term "useful idiot" doesn't appear in any of Lenin or Stalin's writings, wasn't attributed to them during their lifetimes, and wasn't even used in the Soviet Union. The earliest documented usages of the phrase are by American publications discussing Cold-War Italian politics. The highly reputable Oxford English Dictionary gives a 1948 New York Times article on Italian politics as the first known publication to use the term "useful idiot," and notes that the term appears to have had no analog in the Soviet Union.

People misattribute quotations all the time. "As Lincoln once said, " is a common refrain. Just because various people introduce their usage of the word "useful idiot" by saying, "As Lenin used to say, " or "As Stalin used to say, ," that doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages should repeat these misattributions. Spruille Braden said once used the phrase "useful idiots" in a speech and attributed the term to Stalin. Braden wasn't an expert on the Soviet Union, didn't present his scholarship on the origin of the term, and was almost certainly just repeating the popular misattributions of the term "useful idiot." It's not worth mention in the article every time some person introduces the phrase "useful idiot" with the popular misattribution.

What is worth mention in the article is simply the fact that the popular attributions to Lenin and Stalin exist, that reputable sources can find no evidence for those attributions, and that the earliest known usages of the term come from American publications discussing Italian post-War politics. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:08, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

I think the Braden sentence should go. I don't even know how reliable that citation is as it doesn't include a page number, and I can't find a reference to "useful idiots" via Google Books. Braden's book is a book of memoirs based on a speech. As you say, it's not a work of scholarship.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:05, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I managed to track down the citation, although I don't have it handy now. The attribution to Stalin was just a throwaway line, mentioned in passing during a speech on a completely different topic. Braden didn't claim to have done any scholarship on the origin of the quote. It's entirely possible that Braden was simply confusing Lenin and Stalin, given that the phrase is more commonly misattributed to the former. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, it definitely shouldn't be in the article. We don't need a citation of every throwaway line that mentions the phrase.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Contemporary usage

There is widespread contemporary usage of this term with respect to the Russian interference in US politics and the Russians' American enablers. An editor has just removed mention of one such statement, despite WP:PUBLICFIGURE and despite the fact that the cited source is making the point that "useful idiot" is the most charitable term he could use, the alternatives presumably involving criminal intent. This well-sourced article text -- which reflects widespread and diverse other statements of the same analysis -- should be restored. If there are no other editors who disagree, I will do so. Otherwise, please open a WP:BLPN thread to test your interpretation of BLP vs. WP:KNOWNFACT. SPECIFICO talk 16:33, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

The "Contemporary usage" section should talk more generally about the modern usage of the term. If it just cites random usages of the term, it's no more than a trivia section. I haven't yet been able to find a source that gives a good overview of modern usage of the term, however. Having a "Cold War usage" section is just as or more important, though, since this terms originates from that time. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:21, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

The word "computer" dates from the early 20th century but contemporary usage is much more important. Same thing with useful idiots. There didn't used to be all that many of them, now they appear to be mainstream, according to RS sources, e.g. former heads of national intelligence agencies, major US press, and other notable individuals and organizations. Write whatever you think will improve the article. Positive contributions are needed here, not deletions of sourced content. SPECIFICO talk 19:42, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Your removal of the well-sourced Stalin use is your 4th in just about 24 hours. I'm going to politiely ask you to reinstate that edit, in lieu of a user page warning. SPECIFICO talk 20:41, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

An individual case in which someone used the phrase "useful idiot" and then added on the mistaken attribution isn't notable. I've been trying to add good sourcing to this article, like the Oxford English Dictionary, and to cut out the extraneous trivia ("On May 1, 1970, so-and-so called so-and-so a useful idiot, and mistakenly attributed the phrase to Stalin/Lenin"). If you can find a good source that discusses use of the term "useful idiot" in general nowadays, that would be helpful. Random times someone has called someone else a "useful idiot" just clutter the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree. We've been here before in this article, when it included a list of trivia. We need sources that talk about the phrase rather than just sources that use the phrase (of which there are many).--Jack Upland (talk) 07:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Yup. Lots of people have used the phrase, and mistakenly added that it derives from Lenin or, sometimes, from Stalin. There are a lot of quotes floating around that are falsely attributed to various famous people, as the book "They Never Said It" documents. There are reliable secondary sources that specifically discuss the origin of "useful idiot" (the NY Times and Oxford English Dictionary are cited here already), and they say that the phrase cannot be traced to Lenin, and that there doesn't appear to have been a corresponding phrase in use in the Soviet Union. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps this should be rephrased to clarify that the term has been applied to a number of modern politicians (in certain specific context), but the term seem to be applied widely based on Google book search.My very best wishes (talk) 22:13, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh boy, a new dispute at a Sagecandor Special. My take is that The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union. shouldn't be in the lede, but basically every disputed comment on the usage should be in the body. The fact that «while there are no reliable accounts that suggest Lenin or Stalin used the term (or its Russian translation), it has been widely attributed to them» is encyclopedically relevant, and the sources that attribute this to them should be mentioned in the appropriate section (but not the lede). power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why there has to be a dispute here. The scholarship is pretty clear on the issue: there's no evidence supporting the popular attribution to Lenin, and the term appears to have its origins in the West during the Cold War, as a conservative epithet for liberals perceived as weak on Communism. I think the popular attribution to Lenin should be mentioned, maybe even in the lede, but the article should also note that the scholarship doesn't support that attribution, and that the earliest known usage of the term is in post-war articles about Italian politics. -Thucydides411 (talk) 01:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

As a general rule, the lede section of an article should say what the topic is, not what it is not. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:35, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I think you're overcomplicating the issue. If we mention the attribution to Lenin, we should mention that this is not substantiated.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:34, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

His reporting was inconclusive?

The article says:

In a 1987 article for The New York Times, American journalist William Safire noted that a Library of Congress librarian was not able to find the phrase in Lenin's works, and his reporting on the matter was inconclusive.

His reporting on the matter was inconclusive. What does that mean? The book They Never Said It (p 76) cites the same article and concludes he never said it. What is inconclusive?--Jack Upland (talk) 07:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Safire's reporting was only really inconclusive in as far as he wasn't able to find any evidence that Lenin ever talked about "useful idiots," and he Safire couldn't establish where exactly the phrase came from. What was clear from his reporting was that "useful idiot" (or an equivalent phrase in Russian) doesn't appear in any of Lenin's writings, and that there are no first-hand accounts of him having used the phrase. Safire was able to find a second-hand account where Lenin supposedly said something vaguely similar to "the capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them with," but couldn't find any such lead on "useful idiot." -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the article should editorialise like that. Safire reports that the phrase couldn't be found in Lenin's writings. That's it.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:44, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

That's right. Safire was a journalist and amateur etymologist and this was the opinion of -- let's call him an informed dilettante. He was a notable writer and so it's OK to mention that he couldn't find printed use of the term. That's very different than proving that the term was not used by the Communists. SPECIFICO talk 01:41, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Accordingly, let's get this weasel-worded UNDUE "The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union." out of the lede. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

The OED is an excellent source. Stop this nonsense!--Jack Upland (talk) 08:29, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

• If we are talking about tertiary sources, such as Oxford English Dictionary, one should use something more specialized on the subject. In particular, the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms (2008), tells on page 394 that "useful fool - a dupe of the Communists. Lenin's phrase for the shallow thinkers in the West whom the Communists manipulated. Also as useful idiot...". Now, looking at direct quotation here, there is no any doubts that Lenin and other Bolsheviks did call certain Western politicians "idiots" that are very useful for their communist cause (including another famous quotation about the "rope they will sell to us to hang them"). That's why this is widely attributed to Lenin and Radek. I do not see any problem with this. "A librarian was not able to find the phrase". And what does it prove? Apparently, he did very poor job, because it was there (the link to direct quotation above). My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

That ref is obviously fine. Apparently, this is something Lenin only said (and therefore attributed to him in other sources), but did not write in his official works. My very best wishes (talk) 18:52, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

The OED is a reliable source. It's ridiculous to say that it's not. The quotation you link to has already been discussed, and doesn't use the phrase.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:19, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms is definitely an RS - I agree. And what does it tell? See here. My very best wishes (talk) 16:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Now, speaking about that ref, it also qualify as RS, to source claim that someone could not find anything in his written works. But it should not be there. It is enough that he said it at some occasion and multiple RS written by other people attributed this to him. My very best wishes (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Well put. Spoken. Well-attributed and sourced. SPECIFICO talk 16:55, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

The OED is a reliable sources which says that the phrase doesn't seem to have been used in the USSR. The Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms is just another source which attributes the phrase to Lenin. Sure you can add it to the others in the article, but what's the point? The question is how do people know Lenin said it if it isn't in any of his published works, or in the memoirs of someone who spoke to him etc??? In any case, this is purely original research. We go with the published sources, and that includes the OED and the NYT.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

You tell: "Sure you can add it to the others ] in the article". This is very definition of something to be described in multiple RS and being a majority view. "how do people know"? It would be nice to know, but this not our business here to conduct any actual research. You tell it was not used in the USSR? No, I lived there, and it was used. Actually, these letters prove that at least the idea if not precise wording was used as early as 1920s. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Actually, "at least the idea if not precise wording was used as early as" the 1600s in England. In the works of diplomat and author Sir William Temple (1628–1699), he uses the phrase, "They were other Mens Dupes, and did other Mens work" (I. 344, London 1731). Maybe we should include this as a first usage. -Darouet (talk) 19:51, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

If we had multiple source claiming that the expression "useful fool/idiot" came from Sir William Temple (as we have about Lenin), then your suggestion would be meaningful. But without such sources that would be your WP:OR, sorry. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: As discussed previously, the letters by Lenin do not prove the point. They do not use the phrase, and Henderson and Kerensky were not supporters of Lenin, so they can't be described as "useful idiots" in the sense described by this article. It is not significant that Lenin called other people "idiots". You say that we shouldn't do original research, but that's precisely what you're doing. You're digging into primary sources; you're citing your own personal experience; you're speculating about what Lenin might have said. There is no point in this.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

No, we do not do any WP:OR here. We simply quote Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms and other sources. This is all we do. This is reference work. My very best wishes (talk) 01:32, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

But Jack, the issue is whether WP can state categorically that the idea was not used in Russia, and this is clearly not supported by any RS and is in fact contradicted by many. Darouet, your bit is interesting if you have secondary RS discussion of this relating it broadly to the topic of this article, please share. SPECIFICO talk 23:19, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:BRD

Given discussions above, I reverted page to the last stable version and included new section about modern usage. Please explain objections to the new section. And everyone is welcome to simply fix or expand this new section. My very best wishes (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify, that was version which existed without changes from July to November. I am not telling this is "right version", but a number of changes made in November caused various objections, as clear from discussions above. So, please start from here and make further changes only per WP:Consensus. Thanks, My very best wishes (talk) 16:49, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

The revert was to a very recent version. It' disingenuous to claim "stable until November" when the reverts are to versions from last week. The stable version is the one without all the "current usage" nonsense while ignoring 80 years of constant usage. It's not a new term. --DHeyward (talk) 17:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry, but why did you remove so much well sourced and relevant content? Why do you think that content should not be included? If you think that only "current usage" should not be included, why did you revert everything? It was precisely the purpose of my edit to restore valid content about "80 years of constant usage". My very best wishes (talk) 18:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion, it's clear My very best wishes, that you reverted to the appropriate stable version for ongoing discussion. The subsequent edit was not helpful and removed stable valid content while reinstating the deprecated "never used in the Soviet" stuff that was initially edit-warred by a now-banned user. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• (parachuted in from IRC request) I can be of assistance for a third opinion if needed. My name is not dave (talk) 19:18, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• Hi, not Dave! What would you suggest? Normally, if we want to post an RfC about something (for example), we need to have a discussion to understand what the disagreement was about. This is needed to ask correct question on the RfC. But I do not even know why DHeyward made this revert. He said in edit summary: Uhh no, this is all being discussed. stop EW. What? What was the problem with this content that remained stable from July to November? He did not explain. This content looks pretty much sourced and relevant to me. My very best wishes (talk) 23:44, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• • for the record: I requested full-protection due to the continuing edit war, but think it unlikely it will be applied; I also requested a third opinion on IRC. I do not plan to comment further on this topic until the current disputes are resolved. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:20, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, the Oxford English Dictionary is a reliable source. It is not 'deprecated "never used in the Soviet" stuff that was initially edit-warred by a now-banned user'. How can we have a useful discussion if these claims keep being made? Also, the continued reference to the Lenin quotation that was dealt with in January 2016? The version that My very best wishes reverted the page to clearly favored a point of view — Lenin originated the phrase etc...--Jack Upland (talk) 23:47, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Please see comments below . But I would like to know opinion of user DHeyward because it was he who made these reverts. My very best wishes (talk) 23:55, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• What I see is some revisions placing more emphasis on Lenin's purported use of the term, and then others claiming other coinages and usages. This is a classic example of a topic where information repeatedly conflicts, and also an article where it is a little difficult to place the correct weight on a particular part of the topic. It is important to represent all reliable sources. My name is not dave (talk) 08:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I completely agree. Therefore, such edit makes the page less WP:NPOV consistent by removing content sourced to multiple RS. In particular, phrase "The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union" in the lead refers to a single tertiary source, whereas there are multiple RS (removed during this edit) which tell exactly the opposite. This is very definition of a POV-pushing edit.My very best wishes (talk) 15:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Moreover, instead of addressing the issue of WP:WEIGHT in a constructive fashion, we have seen deletions of RS content justified by disparagement of the cited sources. This can't lead to any resolution. I suspect this topic has become a lightning rod for sensitivities about current Russian cyberwarfare who are concerned that the term "useful idiots" is being used by mainstream commentators to refer to individuals who deny Russian interference in the 2016 US elections. That's really not relevant, however, as the usefulness and/or idiocy of that view has nothing to do with whether it was Lenin or Stalin who first used the term in the Soviet Union. SPECIFICO talk 16:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

People get very confused how to deal with conflicting information and then what to write on the article. Nonetheless @DHeyward: has yet to make another appearance on this talk page 24 hours on. I will write to him on his talk page. My name is not dave (talk) 18:03, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is confused. It's a term that has been used in politics for decades but has suddenly become a lightening rod for POV pushing. It's value as an encyclopedic article doesn't swirl around it's use to describe Trump, Obama, Clinton, Bush, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson or Kennedy. The current stable version that has been protected is free of recent U.S. politics which is how it should be. Selectively describing its use is as silly as describing the use of any other pejorative. There is no encyclopedic value to listing when it was used except as to its origin and meaning. It's been used in both formal and informal language by many, many people. Just because it exists doesn't mean we make it a WP:COATRACK of arbitrary aspersions. --DHeyward (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

As an example, "Obama, Hillary, Saul Alinsky and Their Useful Idiots" is a book. that happen to use it the title. It is no more valuable to this article than the NYT use of it to describe Trump. Ditch the coatrack material. --DHeyward (talk) 18:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

These are general words. One must be specific. Here is your edit. Let'f focus on the 1st paragraph of the lead. The initial version tells: According to the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms, the phrase stems from useful fool to refer to "a dupe of the Communists" and was used by Vladimir Lenin to refer to those his country had successfully manipulated. . OK. That's fine. New version you created removes the phrase from the lead (makes it invisible), but tells instead something opposite: The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union . What is this if not an obvious promotion of certain POV and manipulation with sources? Same with other changes that need to be discussed one by one. And no, your version is not stable version. My very best wishes (talk) 18:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

So, to combine the two, The etymology of the term is unclear; according to the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms, the phrase stems from useful fool to refer to "a dupe of the Communists" and was used by Vladimir Lenin to refer to those his country had successfully manipulated. However, the Oxford English Dictionary states that the term was not used in the Soviet Union. My name is not dave (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

That's splitting the baby. A false equivalence. OED is not in the business of researching non-written usage of euphemisms among inner circles of Lenin. And of course a categorical never used is logically an undue conclusion, regardless of the imprint of the dictionary. We have many RS, including senior US diplomat Spruille Braden (cited above and purged by the banned editor) stating that the term was used in the Soviet Union. SPECIFICO talk 20:10, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay dokey. Indeed, after actually checking the source, stating that the OED states that it was not used in the Soviet Union is WP:SYNTH, rather, it was first found in the NYT in the 1940s. Unless someone can find something that explicitly states that it was not used in the Soviet Union, there's no reason to include such assertion in the article. If we want to estimate, the first English usage was in the '40s, «полезный идиот» or whatever was used before that by Lenin. My name is not dave (talk) 20:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Turns out my guess for the translation was right. Y'all might want to check out ru:Полезный_идиот for some good info. My name is not dave (talk) 20:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh yes, I checked ruwiki long time ago. It quotes two Russian language books (refs 1 and 2 on ruwiki article) which do qualify as academic sources. They provide this quote, for example ("Существовало и много честных людей, которым просто претила сама мысль о войне, дикой и ужасной бойне и очевидно бессмысленной жестокости. Среди них, тех, кого Ленин назвал «полезными идиотами» и нашлось так много тех, кого можно было использовать. В свободном и благополучном обществе они процветали в изобилии."). So, yes, Russian sources also attribute this to Lenin. But of course I knew from the beginning that it was widely used in the Soviet Union because I lived there. Hence after looking at some sources and this discussion, I thought: "what kind of modern-day useful idiot does not know that the expression "useful idiot" was used by Bolsheviks"? My very best wishes (talk) 01:38, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

A book??? You call a self-published print on demand pile of paper a "book" -- very good. I know a book that says Lenin used the term all the time. Every day. If you want to see a copy, I'll print one up and list it on ebay. SPECIFICO talk 18:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Sources and attribution of phrase

@My name is not dave, DHeyward, SPECIFICO, and My very best wishes: As explained in the body of both en.wiki and ru.wiki articles, the phrase "useful idiot" is commonly attributed to Lenin. Those articles also explain that the phrase does not appear in Lenin's written work, and it's possible, perhaps even probable that he never spoke it (i.e. it's a common misattribution).

They Never said it

Misattribution of phrases is weaponized in politics. As explained in the preface of "They Never Said It: A Book of Fake Quotes,"

"Today, however, quotations tend to be polemical rather than decorative. People use them to prove points rather than to provide pleasure... What has been called "quotemanship" (or "quotesmanship") — the use and abuse of quotations for partisan purposes — has during the past few decades become a highly refined art in this country... In September 1985, President Ronald Reagan made innocent use of an old-time fake quote from Lenin in one of his speeches: "First, we will take eastern Europe, then the masses of Asia, then we will encircle the United States which will be the last bastion of capitalism. We will not have to attack. It will fall like an overripe fruit into our hands." Lenin was a zealot when it came to communism, but he was not stupid. And he simply wasn't given to making fatuous remarks like the one about overripe fruit. The overripe-fruit statement is just one of a host of phony Lenin quotes that have been making the rounds in this country since the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917." (Paul F. Boller, Jr. and John George, Oxford University Press, 1989)

The book notes that there are an especially large number of quotes that are misattributed to Lenin. Here is the entry on "Useful idiots:"

"Lenin, it is said, once described left-liberals and Social Democrats as "useful idiots," and for years anti-Communists have used the phrase to describe Soviet sympathizers in the West, sometimes suggesting that Lenin himself talked about "useful idiots of the West." But the expression does not appear in Lenin's writings. "We get queries on useful idiots of the West all the time," declared Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress in the spring of 1987. "We have not been able to identify this phrase among his published works." It is ironic that in December 1987, when President Ronald Reagan, ardent anti-Communist, concluded an arms-reduction agreement with Soviet leader Mikhail S. Gorbachev, some of his former admirers began applying the Lenin phrase to Reagan himself. The President, hooted archconservative leader Howard Phillips shortly after the Reagan Gorbachev meeting in Washington, had finally become a "useful idiot for the Soviets.""

The book includes the following citations: Safire, "As Lenin May or May Not Have Said," New York Times News Service, April 29, 1987; letter to John George from Arnold Beichman, Hoover Institution, Stanford University, received, July 19, 1987; "Life After the Red Menace," U.S. News & World Report, December 21, 1987, p. 41.

Safire

William Safire, one of Boller and George's sources, documents widespread attribution of the phrase to Lenin, and like Boller and George notes that "useful idiots" was a derogatory epithet used by anticommunists :

"This seems to be Lenin's phrase, once applied against liberals, that is being used by anti-Communists against the ideological grandchildren of those liberals, or against anybody insufficiently anti-Communist in the view of the phrase's user. But as one who has tied himself in knots looking for Lenin's supposed quote on another subject - 'The capitalists will sell us the rope with which to hang them,' or words to that effect - I wondered when and where Lenin said it. 'We get queries on useful idiots of the West all the time,' said Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress. 'We have not been able to identify this phrase among his published works.' A call to Tass, the Soviet news agency, gets a telephonic shrug and a referral to the Institute of Marxism and Leninism in Moscow; I tried them before, on the rope trick, and it's a waste of a stamp."

Safire notes that Yuri Annenkov, a Soviet portraitist, "claims he copied from Notes in Lenin's handwriting," and presents those notes:

"The whole world's capitalists and their governments, as they pant to win the Soviet market, will close their eyes to the above-mentioned reality and will thus transform themselves into men who are deaf, dumb and blind. They will give us credits... they will toil to prepare their own suicide."

Safire writes that "the 'deaf, dumb and blind' phrase may be one of the phrases that helped start the 'useful idiots,' whether or not originally by Lenin." And Safire concludes that while "outspoken anti-communists" are welcome to use the phrase, they cannot state "as Lenin said" (until more precincts are heard from).

OED

The OED entry on the term reads:

"useful idiot n. derogatory (chiefly Polit.) (originally) a citizen of a non-communist country sympathetic to communism who is regarded (by communists) as naive and susceptible to manipulation for propaganda or other purposes; (more widely) any person similarly manipulable for political purposes. "

As MVBW has pointed out, there is also an Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms (2008), with the following entry (per MVBW):

"useful fool - a dupe of the Communists. Lenin's phrase for the shallow thinkers in the West whom the Communists manipulated. Also as useful idiot."

Russian wiki sources

The ru.wiki provides a few sources to argue that Lenin may have coined the phrase: Anenkov (as discussed above), a passage derived from Karl Radek (quoted here - this will be a particularly hard source to track down, let alone evaluate), and a novel (fiction) by Sir John Hackett: "The Third World War: The Untold Story.

Lede and discussion

Based on all this, the lede should note that 1) it's a phrase used by anti-communists to describe communist sympathizers, 2) the phrase is widely attributed to Lenin, but 3) has not been found in Lenin's writing and 4) may not have been spoken or coined by him. -Darouet (talk) 02:57, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I checked this book ("They Never Said It") prior to commenting anything on this page. This is a tertiary source that belongs to popular history. The only ground for the claim in this book was a reference given to this opinion piece by a journalist. But whatever. If you want to improve this page - welcome. I already said everything above and do not want to be perceived as someone engaged in WP:TE. My very best wishes (talk) 04:33, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

It's published by Oxford University Press, and is backed up by the Hoover Institute, the Library of Congress, and the OED. -Darouet (talk) 04:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

No. I read the book. This particular claim in the book was not backed by Oxford University Press or by Library of Congress. It was backed by a single reference to an opinion piece by a journalist (see link above). Such things are common for popular science books. My very best wishes (talk) 06:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I quoted the book above. The conclusion of John George and Paul Boller, published in the Oxford University Press, is that it can't be demonstrated that Lenin wrote or said the phrase "useful idiots." That is why the phrase is included as an entry in the book They Never Said It: their research suggests the phrase is misattributed to Lenin. They also cite Safire, a U.S. News & World Report piece, correspondence from Beichman, and their conclusion is consistent with the OED. Oxford University Press isn't a pop sci publication. -Darouet (talk) 06:14, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

After looking more carefully, I tend to agree: the NYT article by Safire and book "They never said it" qualify as good secondary sources. On the other hand, two tertiary "Oxford" sources, which strongly contradict each other, are a lot less reliable and should have a lot less weight on this page. This resolves everything. My very best wishes (talk) 20:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Hoover institution? Since when is that a reliable source? It's a box of animal crackers with everything from Nobel Laureates through wingnut reactionaries. SPECIFICO talk 04:45, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Of the sources I mentioned (you didn't comment on the OUP, LoC, or OED), Hoover would be the least credible. However, precisely because they include "wingnut reactionaries," they'd be more inclined than other sources to have a vested interest in attributing the phrase to Lenin. But they don't support the attribution. For better or worse, Arnold Beichman is the correspondent from Hoover who wrote to John George. -Darouet (talk) 05:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

It's not a phrase used by anti-Communists, as if it were a mere instrument of denigration. It's a description of behavior and refers to Soviet tactics. Nobody said it was in Lenin's writing so that's a straw man that only the banned editor used to minimize the impact of the expression. (4) is a tautology, omit. That leaves only (2) -- which is well-sourced and belongs in the article and the lede. SPECIFICO talk 04:45, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

The Safire piece and the book "They Never Said it" state that it was a phrase used by anti-communists. Furthermore, both sources are investigating not merely whether Lenin wrote the phrase, but whether it can be attributed to Lenin at all. Your objection to Hoover ignores the OED and Library of Congress. And lastly, continuously referring to Thucydides411 as "now banned" is not going to convince anyone. I've opened up a dispute resolution page because I think structured discussion would help resolve these issues. -Darouet (talk) 05:05, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

See my comment about Radek and Hackett. There is a difference between attributing a quote and documenting where it came from. For example, there are many sources which state that May you live in interesting times is a Chinese curse, but this apparently isn't so. Finding another source that says it's a Chinese curse proves nothing. What you need is a source which establishes that it is a Chinese curse, with evidence. It's the same here. To claim that Lenin said it, but it's just not in his published works is a synthesis. I've never seen a source that says that. None of the sources that I've seen imply that Lenin said it privately or secretly. Let's bear in mind that Lenin's letters, speeches, and memos have been published. His conversations have been recorded in numerous memoirs. And of course for people to know that Lenin said it, it must have been recorded by someone at some point. How else would we know it??? But apparently this elusive original source has been lost. None of the sources refer to it. After more than a decade of people arguing about this, no one has produced this original source or even given any indication what it was. And the earliest quotations found by the Oxford English Dictionary don't mention Lenin. It's as if his name was attached to the phrase afterwards... Of course, we at Misplaced Pages cannot shed light on this mystery. But we have to document what the sources say. And there is no source I've seen which puts forward the secret conversation theory, so we should leave this out of the article. Moreover, this article should not be constructed according to this theory, which apparently no published author holds.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:37, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

In it's origin it appears to refer to a number of different types of people that helped communists. Whether it was communist party members referring to true believers that fought for communism and then realized that communism wasn't the answer they thought it was, or whether it was anti-communists referring to the same supporters as being ignorant is not conflicting uses. Certainly the infighting and struggle between Lenin and others, especially hi insistence that control be held by only a very few key people would give rise to such terms as "useful idiots." It's not hard to even imagine its use as a general term to describe people that are fighting in a populist uprising to support a government that seeks to limit heir voice. The conflict at the time were all by communists of different factions so I don't see why different accounts that describe different communists are incompatible. It retained its meaning of referring to communists long after Lenin and Martov were fighting each other over which Communist approach was better. Certainly writers like Yuri Bezmenov were not shy about using it. I am not seeing anything contradictory in the origin even if it is murky. It seems plausible that it was used by Lenin both for and against his supporters as well as used by opponents of Lenin to describe his supporters and opponents both within and outside the Soviet Union. We can mention more than one theory on origin and they don't contradict each other (and even if an editor thinks they contradict, that's not an excuse for omission). --DHeyward (talk) 09:04, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Without a quotation from Lenin we should not attribute it to him, though we can certainly point out the the attribution has been made by usually-reliable sources such as the OED. We are not here to state our opinion that it is "plausible" that Lenin used it. As for its use in the Soviet Union, a single quotation should be enough to establish that it was so used, even if a reliable source says that it wasn't. Modern uses are relevant. In an article dedicated to this term we can certainly mention them at some length. I hope this helps. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:30, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Richard Keatinge. If you wouldn't mind, perhaps you'd be willing to be pinged occasionally to participate in this conversation. For clarification, the OED states that "The phrase does not seem to reflect any expression used within the Soviet Union." On the other hand the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms calls it "Lenin's phrase for the shallow thinkers in the West whom the Communists manipulated." Best, -Darouet (talk) 17:23, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I think we are close to consensus on two points: (a) modern usage of the term should be included (per Richard Keatinge, SPECIFICO, and me; I did not see any justified objections to such inclusion so far), and (b) there is no evidence that Lenin said or wrote the phrase according to sources, although it was frequently attributed to him.

Now, speaking about the book "They never said it", it tells in the Introduction: The overripe-fruit statement is just one of a host of phony Lenin quotes that have been making the rounds in this country since the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917.. OK. So, the source actually tells that the expression was widely used in the Soviet Union, but it was not authored by Lenin. Hence the claim in the current version of lead (The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union) would be actually contrary to this source. Right now this claims (included in the lead) is supported by a single tertiary source, but contradict to all other sources, including book "They never said it". That is something to be removed from the lead as contradicting the sources (point (c) we suppose to have consensus about) My very best wishes (talk) 19:41, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

"This country" refers to the USA.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it seems the book does not tell anything about usage of the expression in the Soviet Union. But there is a huge number of good secondary RS (books) which assert the claim belonged to Lenin (and by default was used/came from the USSR). Here is just a few random examples: ,,, . This should be noted on the page. There is also a few (only!) secondary sources that tell there is no hard proof of the attribution to Lenin, but they do not tell if it was used in the USSR. This can also be included (apparently a "notable minority view". There is only one tertiary source (a dictionary) claiming it was not used in the USSR (in parentheses: ""), but another, more specialized Oxford dictionary tells exactly the opposite. I would argue this should not be included at all. My very best wishes (talk) 22:45, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

BTW, I am looking at EOD online , and do not see that phrase in . My very best wishes (talk) 23:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@DHeyward: based on what MVBW writes, what would you think of **not** stating, in the lede at least, that the phrase "Useful idiot" does not appear to have been used in the Soviet Union? Do we have any other source besides the OED for that? Sorry if this has already been covered above. It's possible the OED may have intended to reflect the research in "they never said it", but instead went further. In any event we should definitely make it clear to readers that the phrase isn't found in Lenin's works or recorded speach, and attribution to him is contested and unlikely.

Also @DHeyward and Jack Upland: what do you think of including a modern usage section? I have more questions for everyone but I'm curious about these two issues first. -Darouet (talk) 22:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

what would you think of **not** stating, in the lede at least, that the phrase "Useful idiot" does not appear to have been used in the Soviet Union? - Why is this even a question. What currently active editor favors this "not" statement? It's also not X not Y not Z... Nobody wants that in the lede. That nonsense is what brought the current group of editors together here. SPECIFICO talk 05:00, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Confusingly enough, the Oxford Dictionary of English (which is free) is different from the Oxford English Dictionary. The OED aims to be the definitive dictionary. Its authors would be careful with what they say. They have obviously done extensive research, locating what they think is the earliest use of the phrase in 1948. Clearly, based on their research, they think the phrase doesn't seem to reflect any expression used within the USSR. We shouldn't distort what they say. They could be wrong, but we should respect what they say. I don't think it matters what is in the lead, so long as the lead reflects the body of the article. I don't have strong feelings about a current usage section. The obvious problem is that there are endless examples that could be included, and what is current now (Trump) won't be current in 10 years time. Reagan was also called a useful idiot in his time, but there's no rush to document that now. If a usage is to be included it has to be significant.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we should state that it "does not appear to have been used in the Soviet Union." The history predates the Soviet Union and I believe we have sources of its use during the fights between "Bolsheviks" and "Mensheviks." these were both communist parties and there were a lot of alignments and switching sides. It is not a coincidence that the attribution to Lenin and the Bolshevik need to mobilize a lot of supporters to install a very small number of rulers. I'm working on sources (currently To the Finland Station but the term has been used by virtually every political group and isn't a narrow attribution to anti-communists. Certainly the reference in the Stalin era of calling Western journalists "useful idiots" was a use by Communists amd anti-communists to describe those persons willing to defend Stalin. I am opposed to a "current usage" section. It's so prevalent and used in so many contexts that it can only serve as a coatrack. It would be like trying to figure out the political meaning of the color "red." There is nothing concise about it. If it has been used in an encyclopedic way, it should be in the articles that cover the even but not here as a coatrack. The current interest in the term appears to be related to an effort to tag Trump with it. The difficulty in cutting through the noise to find the terms origin is the fact that it has been used to describe virtually everyone. --DHeyward (talk) 23:58, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

This source and the BBC documentary they reference seems to be worth pursuing as well. --DHeyward (talk) 00:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this an additional RS telling that the wording was invented by Lenin and came from the USSR. And the lack of quotation here does look suspicious to me because it shows that phrase was not included in other versions of the same dictionary, maybe because they found the claim was wrong. OK, so far we have one person who outright oppose to including modern use section, and one person who believes that a single claim in parenthesis () from a tertiary source should be reflected on the page, even though it contradicts to a lot of other sources, including other Oxford dictionaries. My very best wishes (talk) 05:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

"Certainly the reference in the Stalin era of calling Western journalists "useful idiots" was a use by Communists and anti-communists to describe those persons willing to defend Stalin." Yes, exactly. "Communists" means Soviet and Western communists per these sources. It seems we do have consensus about this. Great. My very best wishes (talk) 14:58, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

I would also suggest to look at this section. Is anything problematic here? Everything seem to be supported by RS. Why remove it? Expand, refine or rephrase - yes, sure, why not? My very best wishes (talk) 05:16, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, My very best wishes, can you look at the article Oxford English Dictionary and understand what you are attacking? Regarding the Reported usage by Lenin section you suggest: 1. It is a jumble of citations, which add up to the same point made in the current version, that the phrase is attributed to Lenin, but no one has found a record of him saying it. 2. The section is supposed to be about usage by Lenin, so why devote so much space to the opinions of William J. Bennett, a conservative American politician writing in 2007, and why have an attack on one individual Armand Hammer without any evidence that Lenin called Hammer a "useful idiot"? There is no suggestion that Bennett has researched Lenin's usage, so why have this here? 3. If we are going to include the rope quote (again from Bennett in 2007), we have to say that this is another unsubstantiated quotation from Lenin. It's mentioned in the Safire article and They Never Said It. Besides, it is not really relevant as it is directed at capitalists who traded with the USSR, while "useful idiot" is directed at naive enthusiasts for the cause. 4. The commentary by conservative columnist Mona Charen in 2003 really adds nothing to this section, except to say that Lenin might never have said it. Or opinions of the Tea Party intellectual Michael Prell. Like the opinions of Bennett, these sources document that there is a dubious attribution to Lenin, but add nothing to the article. They are basically American conservatives attacking liberals.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:35, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh no, all these multiple secondary RS (vast majority of RS on the subject) claim explicitly that the expression belongs to Lenin and came from the USRR, without refining if he wrote or said it. Only a couple of secondary RS (Safire and the book "they never said it") tell there is no evidence Lenin ever wrote it (this is prominently included in the section). As about your other points, they mean the section should be modified. OK. My very best wishes (talk) 13:33, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

And I am not "attacking" Oxford English Dictionary. To the contrary, I am using it. One version tells exactly the opposite to something you said it tells. Another (online) version simply does not tell it. My very best wishes (talk) 14:52, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

There is only one version of the Oxford English Dictionary that we are using. It is available online as subscription only. The free online dictionary you are using is the Oxford Dictionary of English, NOT the Oxford English Dictionary. The entry on "useful idiot" is basically a shortened version of what is in the OED. It's not a contradiction to it. But they are different dictionaries, not different versions of the same dictionary. Then there's the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms which is different again.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. The expression, even when not stated in the Enlgish words, "useful idiot" is richly documented and discussed in many RS. And the current importance of it, particularly in the context of American politics, does not depend on Lenin or communists or their purported unwitting enablers of the 20th century. SPECIFICO talk 18:18, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

In addition, the shortened version from the dictionary is exactly the same as in the version under subscription, except it does not include the phrase in . And whoever wrote it was not sure (The phrase does not seem to reflect...), and there is no any reference where it came from, as typical for tertiary sources. Now, that claim contradicts directly to claims by a lot of other secondary and tertiary sources (including another Oxford dictionary), and not supported by any other refs, including Safire and "They never said it" (those ref only tell that authorship by Lenin was not proven, but do not tell it was not used in the USSR; in fact the ref by Safire tells the opposite - about the book published by Russian author Annenkov in 1966). is something not to be mentioned at all on the page per WP:Weight. My very best wishes (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

I apologize, I will be busy and absent for a few days. -Darouet (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

I think we've just about exhausted any discussion here. I propose MVBW make the edits he has explained. SPECIFICO talk 23:21, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, sure, I could easily make a compromise version with regards to historical usage of the term based on the discussion above. If that gets consensus, then, as a 2nd step, me or someone else could suggest something about modern usage. My very best wishes (talk) 05:03, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

So, just to summarize the claims by sources about the term:

1. Timing. "The overripe-fruit statement is just one of a host of phony Lenin quotes that have been making the rounds in this country since the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917". This is from "They never said it", but consistent also with all sources claiming that the quote belongs to Lenin.
2. The country of origin. USSR. - this is essentially per all sources (see discussion above)
3. Authorship. Most books (good secondary RS) attribute this to Lenin, however the NYT article by Safire (and two books that make a reference to the article by Safire) claim that his authorship can not be proven because the expression was not found in his writings. My very best wishes (talk) 15:59, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

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