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Turkey Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

This is a WikiProject, an area for focused collaboration among Wikipedians. New participants are welcome; please feel free to participate! Guide to WikiProjects Directory of WikiProjects

Shortcuts WP:WPC WP:COUNTRIES

This WikiProject helps develop country-related pages (of all types) and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. For example, the sets of Culture of x, Administrative divisions of x, and Demographics of x articles, etc. – (where "x" is a country name) – and the various types of pages, like stubs, categories, etc.

What's new?

Did you know

• 20 Oct 2024 – Mwene Muji (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Kowal2701 (t · c); see discussion

Articles for deletion

• 05 Dec 2024 – Emirate of Banu Talis (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by R Prazeres (t · c); see discussion (5 participants; relisted)

Categories for discussion

• 22 Dec 2024 – Category:Same-sex marriage in South America by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by MikutoH (t · c); see discussion
• 22 Dec 2024 – Category:Same-sex marriage in Europe by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by MikutoH (t · c); see discussion
• 21 Dec 2024 – Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Sims2aholic8 (t · c); see discussion

Redirects for discussion

• 13 Dec 2024 – Old Roman Empire (talk · edit · hist) →Roman Empire was RfDed by Veverve (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Les États Unis d'Amérique (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Соединенные Штаты (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Соединенные Штаты Америки (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – 米国 (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Estados Unidos da América (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 12 Nov 2024 – Canadaa (talk · edit · hist) →Canada was RfDed by TeapotsOfDoom (t · c); see discussion
• undated – Yemen-Taizz (talk · edit · hist) →Kingdom of Yemen was RfDed
• 16 Dec 2024 – الولايات المتحدة (talk · edit · hist) →United States RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c) was closed; see discussion

Good article nominees

• 01 Oct 2024 – Regency of Algiers (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Nourerrahmane (t · c); see discussion
• 01 Oct 2024 – Connecticut Colony (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Gazingo (t · c); start discussion

Featured article reviews

• 30 Oct 2023 – Byzantine Empire (talk · edit · hist) was put up for FA review by SandyGeorgia (t · c); see discussion

Requests for comments

• 08 Dec 2024 – Estado Novo (Portugal) (talk · edit · hist) has an RfC by 2804:29B8:5183:100C:7163:1F92:A81A:7841 (t · c); see discussion

Peer reviews

• 24 Dec 2024 – Central Powers (talk · edit · hist) has been put up for PR by History6042 (t · c); see discussion

Requested moves

• 23 Dec 2024 – Slovak Republic (1939–1945) (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to First Slovak Republic by 143.179.74.165 (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Syrian opposition (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Syrian opposition to Bashar al-Assad by Panam2014 (t · c); see discussion
• 17 Dec 2024 – Threatening statements in the Russo-Ukrainian War (talk · edit · hist) move request somewhere else by CanonNi (t · c) was moved to Red lines in the Russo-Ukrainian War (talk · edit · hist) by Cyberdog958 (t · c) on 24 Dec 2024; see discussion
• 16 Dec 2024 – East Timor (talk · edit · hist) move request to Timor-Leste by Kenneth Kho (t · c) was moved to Timor-Leste (talk · edit · hist) by Robertsky (t · c) on 24 Dec 2024; see discussion
• 02 Dec 2024 – Makhzumi dynasty (talk · edit · hist) move request to Sultanate of Shewa by BarrelProof (t · c) was moved to Sultanate of Shewa (talk · edit · hist) by Reading Beans (t · c) on 17 Dec 2024; see discussion

Articles to be merged

• 29 Nov 2024 – Uyunid Emirate (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Uyunid dynasty by Mrox2 (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Nov 2024 – Champa (Ja Thak Wa) (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Ja Thak Wa uprising by 27.96.243.106 (t · c); see discussion

Articles to be split

• 29 Nov 2024 – Sind State (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Veritasphere (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Oct 2024 – Francoist Spain (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Salmoonlight (t · c); see discussion

To do list

Scope

This WikiProject is focused on country coverage (content/gaps) and presentation (navigation, page naming, layout, formatting) on Misplaced Pages, especially country articles (articles with countries as their titles), country outlines, and articles with a country in their name (such as Demographics of Germany), but also all other country-related articles, stubs, categories, and lists pertaining to countries.

Navigation

This WikiProject helps Misplaced Pages's navigation-related WikiProjects (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Outline of knowledge, WikiProject Categories, WikiProject Portals, etc.) develop and maintain the navigation structures (menus, outlines, lists, templates, and categories) pertaining to countries. And since most countries share the same subtopics ("Cities of", "Cuisine of", "Religion in", "Prostitution in", etc.), it is advantageous to standardize their naming, and their order of presentation in Misplaced Pages's indexes and table-of-contents-like pages.

Categories

Subpages

• List of all subpages of this page.

Formatting

Many country and country-related articles have been extensively developed, but much systematic or similar information about many countries is not presented in a consistent way. Inconsistencies are rampant in article naming, headings, data presented, types of things covered, order of coverage, etc. This WikiProject works towards standardizing page layouts of country-related articles of the same type ("Geography of", "Government of", "Politics of", "Wildlife of", etc.).

We are also involved with the standardization of country-related stubs, standardizing the structure of country-related lists and categories (the category trees for countries should be identical for the most part, as most countries share the same subcategories – though there will be some differences of course).

Goals

1. Provide a centralized resource guide of all related topics in Misplaced Pages, as well as spearhead the effort to improve and develop them.
2. Create uniform templates that serve to identify all related articles as part of this project, as well as stub templates to englobe all related stubs under specific categories.
3. Standardize articles about different nations, cultures, holidays, and geography.
4. Verify historical accuracy and neutrality of all articles within the scope of the project.
5. Create, expand and cleanup related articles.

Structure and guidelines

This section contains an essay on style, consisting of the advice or opinions of one or more WikiProjects on how to format and present article content within their area of interest.This information is not a formal Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.

Although referenced during FA and GA reviews, this structure guide is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question. Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Australia)

Main polities

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

• WP:COUNTRYLEAD

For lead length see, #Size

Opening paragraphs

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article). The primary purpose of a Misplaced Pages lead is not to summarize the topic, but to summarize the content of the article.

First sentence

The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what the subject is, and where. It should be in plain English.

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting and naming disputes, may be dealt with in the etymology section. Foreign-languages, pronunciations and acronyms may also belong in the etymology section or in a note to avoid WP:LEADCLUTTER.

Example:

Y Sweden, formally the Kingdom of Sweden, is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.
N Sweden,(Swedish: Sverige ) formally the Kingdom of Sweden,(Swedish: Konungariket Sverige ) is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.

Detail, duplication and tangible information

• WP:COUNTRYDETAIL

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, excessive numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article. The lead prose should provide clear, relevant information through links to relevant sub-articles about the country an relevant terms, rather than listing random stats and articles with minimal information about the country.

Example:

Y A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. ]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

• The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
• The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
• A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
• A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
• Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
• The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
• The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
• The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
• If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
• Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
• Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
• GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
• HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
• Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: ].
• Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
• National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
• Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
• Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.

Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

• WP:COUNTRYSECTIONS

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

• Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
• History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
• Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
• Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available.
• Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
• Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
• Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data and charts should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS and WP:PROSE) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
• Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
• See also – 'See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s).
• References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
• External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links

Size

• WP:COUNTRYSIZE

Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually 250 to 400 words as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.

• Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
• Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
• Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,834 words) "readable prose size"
• Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
• Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
• East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8,152 words) "readable prose size"
• Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9,092 words) "readable prose size"
• New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,761 words) "readable prose size"
• Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,178 words) "readable prose size"

Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. Important links/articles should be incorporated into the prose of the section. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

Y== Economy ==

N== Economy ==

Charts

• WP:COUNTRYCHARTS

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams that lack any context or explanation such as; economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

• WP:COUNTRYGALLERIE

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraph summary section, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

As noted at Misplaced Pages:Categories, lists, and series boxes the number of templates at the bottom of any article should be kept to a minimum. Country pages generally have footers that link to pages for countries in their geographic region. Footers for international organizations are not added to country pages, but they rather can go on subpages such as "Economy of..." and "Foreign relations of..." Categories for some of these organizations are also sometimes added. Templates for supranational organizations like the European Union and CARICOM are permitted. A list of the footers that have been created can be found at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries/Templates/Navboxes, however note that many of these are not currently in use.

Transclusions

Transclusions are generally discouraged in country articles for reasons outlined below.

• H:TRANSDRAWBACKS

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

• Transcluded text may have no sources for statements that should be sourced where they appear, have different established reference styles, contain no-text cite errors, or duplicate key errors. (To help mitigate these, see Help:Cite errors)
• Excerpts break the link between article code and article output.
• Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page.
• Transcluded text may cause repeated links or have different varieties of English and date formats than the target page.
• Transclusions may not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. See Cascading protection
• {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained.
• Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for "section heading" changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. (To help mitigate this, see MOS:BROKENSECTIONLINKS)
• Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

• Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
• Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Misplaced Pages articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Misplaced Pages articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

Resources

Sisterlinks

Related WikiProjects

• WikiProject Former countries
• WikiProject Micronations
• WikiProject Limited recognition

Popular pages

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries/Popular pages

Notes

1. Swedish: Sverige ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
2. Swedish: Konungariket Sverige

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Software, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of software on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SoftwareWikipedia:WikiProject SoftwareTemplate:WikiProject Softwaresoftware ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Computing.

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Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Comment

Hectorian, your indiscriminate reversal vandalised the opening statement changes. Also, if you would like to direct the reader to the detailed article you can put a reference link rather than reversal. Thank you for your future avoidance of belligerent disrespect (I know it will be hard for you)

Survey on Religions

Does anyone have access to a recent survey on the religions of people in Turkey? I think that we will definitely need it at some point.. Baristarim 01:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Successor State

I had to put this back since some anon unilaterally deleted some parts of the article by referring to other editors as kids.. See article successor state...

I made an edit saying that the Treaty of Lausanne confirmed the Republic of Turkey as the successor state of the Ottoman empire, and somebody deleted it.. To avoid this delete in the future, couple of words as to why it was made: it is only a legal and technical information, it doesn't imply any political or ideological message. The Russian Federation is the successor state of the USSR, but their ideological systems are completely different.. For people who know Turkey this might be evident, but for complete strangers making research on the Net about Turkey and that don't know its history, it could be intresting to know.. Successor state just means that the new state assumed the debts, properties (such as embassies), archives etc of the old one.. That's it.. The fact that there was a revolution doesn't mean anything, the USSR was the successor state of the Russian Empire, even though there was a much more profound revolution.. The UN, Treaty of Lausanne, the global academic community, Turkish people and Turkish government know this, it is hardly a secret or anything :)), in any case there is absolutely no-one anywhere that disputes the fact that Turkey was the successor state (legally). The article is about the Republic of Turkey and not the Empire, but this info is extremely relevant as to how Turkey was founded (contrary to other states that were a part of the Ottoman Empire who are considered as new states that are supposed to have declared their independence from the Empire and confirmed as such by treaties, legally speaking). Syria, Greece, Lebanon were not the successor states of the OE, Turkey was.. That's all... Regards Baristarim 23:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Those of you support Turkey's accesion to EU

Those of you support Turkey's accesion to EU you can put this template to your user pages. Template:User Turkey and EU and please help to create a category for this. CrashMex 21:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Shamefull pro-Turkish bias

A detailled study of the history of this page and a few subpages shows that several fiercely pro-Turkish contributors frequently delete any critical information, even when backed up with sources and references.

I agree. No mention of the million armenian deaths, whether holocaust or victims of a rare hunger that only affected armenians. Oh! By the way, the Rwandan Holocaust was not because it wasnt organized or carried out by the government, it just stood still whilst the Interhamwe did the job.88.16.44.192 23:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

cuisine

I changed the cuisine bit to remove the weasely "is one of the world's most famous". See Misplaced Pages:Avoid_weasel_words. I apologise to the die-hard nationalist chefs out there, but this sounded like the intro to a turkish cookery book. yandman 17:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Cousine

• No need to see any Turkish cookery book, See your cookery book(I mean Greek).
• Please clear following funny phrases in Greece article in the same manner;

:"Regarded as the cradle of western civilization and being the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, western literature, political science, major scientific principles as well as drama including both tragedy and comedy,"
:"Greece has a particularly long and eventful history and a cultural heritage considerably influential in Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East." 
:"The shores of Greece's Aegean Sea saw the emergence of the first advanced civilizations in Europe" 
:"Greece is often known as the cradle of Western civilisation."

Regards

Mustafa Akalp 18:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages, anyone can edit any page. If, as you say, the Greece page has terms like this, we'll change them. Is this a sort of competition between you and the greeks? yandman 07:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Double Standards

Ok, I see what you mean, AGarnet, but I think that this can be conveyed by "...lukewarm support (both France....referendums...)". In my opinion, putting "alleged double standards" sounds a bit too PoV, and technically, it definetly needs a ref showing that these allegations have been made. I'm working on some material showing the other side of the issues, because I feel that the foreign-relations section is slightly one-way at the present time (we're told what Turks think of the EU, but not what europeans think of Turkey). BtW, re: the whole genocide thing, as France is going to hold a referendum, and as they're taking a rather firm stance on the issue (there's a bill being passed making it a criminal offence to deny it, much like the holocaust denial laws, and both Ségo and Sarko are in favour), I think this is definetly going to be an issue. Any ideas? yandman 07:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Do we have to go over this again? Can u please see ? Besides, there are other considerations to be taken to account dude, I really don't understand this lack of not being able to see things in context.. In FR, first Genocide law was in 2001, one year before the elections in 2002, the second is in 2006, again coincidentally one year before the elections in 2007, interesting, eh? :)) I live in France, I know what I am saying when I say that this issue is a domestic political issue for France more than an EU-Turkey issue, did u read the article I gave u, written by an Armenian political science doctor and historian and published in panarmenian.net about this? Pls be my guest and have a look - .. As for the foreign relations, I will take care of it, I am in the process of rewriting many turkey related articles, including the FR, HR and law related articles, so when the time comes that will be taken care of - It is easy to criticize other people's work when u r not contributing anything positive yourself.. As for the alleged double standards, it is true, no referanda were held for other countries, so ergo it is a double standard logically and automatically.. Maybe instead of criticizing other users, and considering the fact that u claimed earlier that you really wanted to get this article to FA status, maybe u should have created the Topics in Turkey template before I did, no? That would have been appreciated for example, but no.. The same old, same old.. Please give us a hand with more practical aspects of many articles, then start criticizing.. Baristarim 08:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Her nickname in France is not Ségo by the way, this is the first time I am hearing it. As a nickname, she is always referred to as la Royale.. Gees, no need to try to be so cool, u know.. Baristarim 08:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

], ]. Et si tu pouvais essayer d'être un peu moins agréssif dans tes propos, ca ne ferait pas de mal. yandman 08:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that "double standards" is a slightly pejorative term, and implies that there is no difference between Turkey and the other countries that have joined the EU, and that treating Turkey differently is therefore hypocritical. yandman 08:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

And I have contributed minor changes, but these are always speedily reverted. In my opinion, the big hurdle for getting this article to FA status is neutrality, not templates. yandman 08:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

ok, desolée si je t'ai offensé, j'ai pas dormi tt la nuit si ça peut l'excuser.. Good to see another french speaker though :)) back to the matter at hand.. Double standards: the fact that there is a different treatment in itself is pejorative.. I mean, if there was no problem, why werent there referanda for other countries?? Every country that joined the EU was different, Malta and Poland are not in the same league u know :) In fact, as far as differences go, current sociocultural climate in Poland is much worse then it is in Turkey, and definitely worse than it is in France or UK.. Did u know that Turkey legalized abortions in 1985 but it is still illegal in Poland, and Ireland while we are at it? And Turkey doesnt have presidents that call for the reinstatement of the death penalty.. Anyways, what I am saying is that the fact that there are different procudures applied to Turkey compared to other 19 countries is double standards, particularly keeping in mind that, at the end of the day, parliaments of France and Austria can hold votes and refuse to ratify Turkey's eventual accession treaty instead of taking it to a referendum. It is a pity that French politicians are using outside excuses to cover up for their mismanagement.. As for the article's neutrality.. What do u mean by neutral? It is one of the most subjective words in existance :)) Apart from what we have been talking about, I don't see any neutrality problems in this article, it should be simply describing the country in any case. Many sections will have to be cut and trimmed down.. You were right about the comment about the Turkish cuisine thought, that was pretty subjective :)) En revanche, si je peut t'aider en quoique ce soit, je t'en prie dis moi, j'ai senti un peu de resignation dans ton dernier post :) Je ne veux pas que tu ais l'impression qu'on essaie de te garder loin d'ici.. salut.. Baristarim 09:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yandman, i was careful to write "based on what it views" and "alleged" double standards. Also i disagree that it is one sided, i have stated that Cyprus, human rights, its population, and poor economy are considered issues by the EU. In fact i should also add "perceived cultural differences", since many Europeans have voiced the fact that they do not like Turkey for being Muslim. If i really wanted to make it in Turkeys favour i would have added that Turkey supported the referendum in Cyprus which Turkish Cypriots agreed to, and yet the EU has broken its promise to lift embargoes. There are many things that can be added to foreign relations, but please consider the size of it, it is already larger than most countries foreign relations section. There is always a risk with these kind of sections that people come and give their two cents about what they do and dont agree with and the section becomes overbloated and incoherent. Just look at "Arguments used against" section in Accession of Turkey to the European Union.

As for the Armenian issue, it is a problem. Yes it is of course a notable issue, but in terms of foreign relations there are things of far more significance. E.g. Turkey-Russian relations, Turkey-Israeli relations, Turkish attempts to influence Turkic countries, Turkeys attempts to become an energy hub etc. I dont want to include it just for the sake of including it, it has to be done in a way which is purposeful. Also, you state that what you include is reverted, but what you included in the foreign relations section before was wrong and you would not admit it, that annoyed me somewhat. In your attempt to include the Armenian issue you made the reader think it had become a pre-condition of Turkish accession to the EU, which was simply not the case. This is what i mean when i say it has to be done in a way which is purposeful to the article. --A.Garnet 16:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay, people. For the first time in a long time I was actually doing work at work... Thanks for the polite replies. To answer the "double standards" question, I agree that there have never been referanda for other countries, but this is, in my opinion, a question of French (I'll refer only to France, as I'm currently there, but what I say can probably be applied to others) internal politics. The French government don't want to be criticised for what they do by their electors, so they have decided to let us decide. I'm not sure if this can be called "double standards". I apologise for being a bit pushy as to getting my version in, but in my opinion this formulation sounded unfair. OK, now about the "alleged" word, from our entry on weasel words: " There are some forms of generalization which are considered unacceptable in standard writing. This category embraces what is termed a semantic cop-out, represented by the term allegedly". "what is viewed as" is also a weasel word. It's appropriate that you talk about the next part ("poor economy"). This is another case where I feel the writing is slightly biased. The statement "poor economy" is immediately followed by a "but fast growing", as if to redeem itself. I think "relatively poor economy" is enough, as the fact that it is fast growing poses no problems, so should not be under "stumbling blocks". And as for the whole armenian issue, maybe its because I'm in France and there's a lot of talk about it (et j'étais à Lyon pendant que les Arméniens et le Turques se tapaient sur la gueule a cause du monument au génocide), but I think that, although it's not a formal condition, it's a stumbling block (or rather a big pit full of pointed sticks) for Turkey. I mean, if you were to join the EU today, you'd have one country where you can be brought to court for saying it happened, and another where it'll be illegal to say it didn't! I think this deserves inclusion, if only due to current event bias: What with the nobel prize and the bill passing French parliament and everything. yandman 13:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Mount Ararat

I was wondering if we couldn't replace the image of Mount Ararat with another geographic area of Turkey. My reasoning behind this is that Ararat is considered to be a national symbol of Armenia. Please note that I am not discussing the Armenian Genocide or Armenian-Turkish relations, I just feel that it would be the sensitive thing to do. Turkey is a vast and beautiful country and I am sure that there are other noteworthy geographic formations that hold greater significance to the Turkish republic. Kindest regards, Clevelander 11:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Clevelander,

I am against your suggestion but not because of Turkish Armenian relations. I think the significance and necessity of Mount Ararat in this article is that it is the highest peak of Turkey. CrashMex 14:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an encylopedia for heavens sake, not somewhere where we should be worrying about Armenian sensitivities. It is the tallest peak in Turkey and as such is very notable for any reader concerned about geography in Turkey. Really, i find this whole attitude compeletely wrong, we're here to convey knowledge to people, and you are telling us to compromise that because of nationalist feeling towards a mountain. Next, we'll have Greek users telling us not to show pictures of Aya Sofya in articles related to Turkey. --A.Garnet 15:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with A.Garnet if we do something like that then, lots of people will come and ask for removing the images of different things.CrashMex 16:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I know the Armenian sensitivities to this issue, but it was not put there to offend anyone, it is only there because it is the highest peak in Turkey.. In fact, I am nearly 100 percent sure that the person who put it there was thinking of only this.. Baristarim 20:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

In any case, my point was that it has more significance to the Armenian nation than to the Turkish republic. To Armenians, Ararat is more than what Aya Sofya is to the Greeks. Rather, to Armenians, it is comparable to Mount Olympus in Greece or the Western Wall in Israel. The only difference is that it's no longer part of the Armenian republic. -- Clevelander 20:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please, we all know the story about why Ararat is important to Armenians, but as an encyclopedia the highest peak in Turkey is very relevant in the geography section of this article, believe me, nobody put it there to offend Armenians, if that can make u feel better :)) Baristarim 20:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I understand now. -- Clevelander 20:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Scrap gallery or drastically cut?

The gallery is too big. A lot of the images are not that good either. I suggest we either get rid of it completely, that away stop the arguments between people who think their images are better, or else reduce it to no more than 12 very good images. What do people think? --A.Garnet 13:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

BRAVO FRANCE

1. It is amazing that Turkey is allowed to be silent on it's Nazi past and even today to avoid acceptance of the huge genocide commited. 2. It is shame on Europe to allow this to continue and even more to consider this country as potential member state. 3. It is discusting to read how some people (mostly Americans) try not to anoy beast saying that something might anoy Armenians

WE ARE TALKING ON REAL GENOCIDE. WE ARE TALKING ON MASS DEPORTATION, VERY PLANNED KILLING OF MORE THEN A MILION PEOPLE AND WE ARE TALKING WITH MANNERS??!!

History is not supposed to be "negotiated"

Turkey is country of multiple genocides and one of them is done in this pages: a.) Armenian b.) Kurdish c.) Greek d.) Serbian e.) Bulgarian

and many more...

But most of anything it was Armenian. It was planned AND governed by the state, conducted by the state in the same, completely the same manner as one done in 1940's in Germany. Seams that Hitler had tutor in what happened in 1915.

And everyone is silent.

Americans know about this very well. Their president and senators were louder on this. But for the sake of being hypocrits we will stay "SOFT".

Why?

TO UNDERSTAND TURKISH JUSTICE WAIT AND SEE. THIS WILL BE DELETED IN FEW MINUTES

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