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Revision as of 20:29, 14 January 2018 editBiogeographist (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users15,701 edits →Adding "Cruelty to animals" category in Animal Testing article: responded← Previous edit		Revision as of 21:24, 14 January 2018 edit undoTryptofish (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers69,524 edits →Adding "Cruelty to animals" category in Animal Testing article: replyNext edit →
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	::::::{{reply to\|Tryptofish}} No, I wasn't implying that animal testing should be subject to prosecution; I was just presenting a reason why this article doesn't belong in ] (not the only possible reason nor even an especially strong reason). People have been prosecuted for animal cruelty for causing much less harm to animals than the harm that necessarily occurs in some animal experimentation, so (although it is not relevant to the current discussion) I do take the position that there is something "lamentable" and contradictory about existing laws, but not in a way that would be remedied by criminalizing animal testing. ] (]) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)		::::::{{reply to\|Tryptofish}} No, I wasn't implying that animal testing should be subject to prosecution; I was just presenting a reason why this article doesn't belong in ] (not the only possible reason nor even an especially strong reason). People have been prosecuted for animal cruelty for causing much less harm to animals than the harm that necessarily occurs in some animal experimentation, so (although it is not relevant to the current discussion) I do take the position that there is something "lamentable" and contradictory about existing laws, but not in a way that would be remedied by criminalizing animal testing. ] (]) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
			:::::::OK, please just chalk it up to a misunderstanding, thanks. And I ''do'' agree with you about the category. About the existing laws, I guess ]. --] (]) 21:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

	::Thanks ], for the clarification. It's indeed ironical that our civilization is yet to comprehend the meaning of cruelty. ] (]) 20:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)		::Thanks ], for the clarification. It's indeed ironical that our civilization is yet to comprehend the meaning of cruelty. ] (]) 20:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
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	::::{{ec}} That's a valid point. So let me make a better analogy by staying within the parent category. ] also contains the subcategory ] and other categories of being kind to animals. But veterinary medicine is not typically considered to be animal cruelty. That's because, although they share a parent category, the subcategories represent different branches of the ]. --] (]) 19:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)		::::{{ec}} That's a valid point. So let me make a better analogy by staying within the parent category. ] also contains the subcategory ] and other categories of being kind to animals. But veterinary medicine is not typically considered to be animal cruelty. That's because, although they share a parent category, the subcategories represent different branches of the ]. --] (]) 19:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, that's a much better analysis. ] (]) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)		:::::Yes, that's a much better analysis. ] (]) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks! I'm glad we are seeing some common ground. --] (]) 21:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
	:::I agree that the category is problematic for this article. Cats are not a vehicle for advocacy. ] (]) 19:18, 14 January 2018 (UTC)		:::I agree that the category is problematic for this article. Cats are not a vehicle for advocacy. ] (]) 19:18, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

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Adding "Cruelty to animals" category in Animal Testing article

I added category "Cruelty to animals" to the article Animal testing. However, it was reverted for some reason. Can anyone clarify as to why it should not be added here? I felt it was one of the primary categories in the article given the fact that animal testing is one of the chief manifestations of speciesism and cruelty is an inseparable factor in animal testing despite our tagging it with "ethical," "humane," and other euphemistic adjectives. Rasnaboy (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

It is a clear and obvious violation of WP:NPOV and an attempt to categorize only based on your viewpoint for purely prejudicial purposes. Look at all the other categories; nothing so clearly biased as your attempted addition appears. HCA (talk) 18:21, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

The article is already in the parent category Category:Animal welfare, so if it is added to Category:Cruelty to animals it should be removed from the parent category per WP:CAT. The problem with such a move is that, ironically, in the USA animal testing is typically explicitly exempted from state and local animal anti-cruelty laws. This means that the animal cruelty that occurs in animal testing laboratories goes unprosecuted in the USA. I don't know anything about the status of animal testing in relation to animal anti-cruelty laws in other countries. But certainly in the USA, animal testing per se is not considered animal cruelty in most state and local laws. Biogeographist (talk) 12:42, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

That (the part about US law) is spectacularly untrue. Animal research labs in the US are intensely regulated, by law. It's just that testing per se is not considered a criminal activity. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: You called my comment "spectacularly untrue" and then you repeated the point of my comment. My earlier comment said: "animal testing per se is not considered animal cruelty" in most criminal codes in the USA. Your comment said: "testing per se is not considered a criminal activity". We were making exactly the same point. Perhaps it was not clear that when I said "testing is typically explicitly exempted from state and local animal anti-cruelty laws" I meant in criminal codes (which was implied by my reference to prosecution in the subsequent sentence). If a person were to treat an animal in public the way some animals are treated in laboratories, that person would be liable to prosecution for animal cruelty in many jurisdictions. But the same treatment would not be considered animal cruelty in laboratories. Biogeographist (talk) 01:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your position. It sounded like you were taking the position that animal testing should be subject to prosecution, that you thought existing laws are lamentable. As for a person "treat an animal in public" that way, I cannot imagine anyone doing animal testing out on the street, and without proper training in the correct manner of handling animals in a humane way. And if what you think goes on in US research laboratories (at least since roughly the turn of the century) is in any way like what reasonable persons consider to be animal cruelty, you should familiarize yourself with Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, as well as the documentation required by the National Institutes of Health and other scientific agencies. There are very, very detailed requirements than US scientists must follow, that are designed to eliminate or minimize animal pain or discomfort. The false narrative of animals being tormented in labs (at least since roughly the turn of the century) is one that is pushed by some animal rights groups, but it is false nevertheless. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:03, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: No, I wasn't implying that animal testing should be subject to prosecution; I was just presenting a reason why this article doesn't belong in Category:Cruelty to animals (not the only possible reason nor even an especially strong reason). People have been prosecuted for animal cruelty for causing much less harm to animals than the harm that necessarily occurs in some animal experimentation, so (although it is not relevant to the current discussion) I do take the position that there is something "lamentable" and contradictory about existing laws, but not in a way that would be remedied by criminalizing animal testing. Biogeographist (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

OK, please just chalk it up to a misunderstanding, thanks. And I do agree with you about the category. About the existing laws, I guess WP:RGW. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks User:Biogeographist, for the clarification. It's indeed ironical that our civilization is yet to comprehend the meaning of cruelty. Rasnaboy (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your opinion, User:HCA.Rasnaboy (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Adding such a category is so obviously a violation of WP:NPOV (and WP:RGW) as to border on disruption. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:09, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Also, this and related issues have been discussed extensively in the past: see the talk page archives. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable. Categories are for navigation, not definition: You put something in a category if you think that readers looking at that category would be interested in reading that article. You do not put something in a category just because it happens to objectively be part of a particular subset. It might be useful for the reader.

Also, User:SlimVirgin is probably a good editor to ask about this kind of question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:01, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Tryptofish is also a good editor to ask about this kind of question.

There is a lot more history underlying what you said than you realize. (If what I say needs clarification, please take it to my user talk, not here.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

would agree with WAID, on this point--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

I also tend to like the idea of using categories to be helpful to readers, but there are some important guideline considerations that must be attended to. WP:CATV says: Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate. In addition, WP:NONDEF says: A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having... Categorization by non-defining characteristics should be avoided. It is simply not the case that reliable sources call testing "cruel" commonly and consistently, but it's absolutely true that applying this category would imply a controversial position. Anyway, Category:Animal welfare should be sufficient to help readers. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Exactly my point. There's no POV involved in adding the category as doubted by some fellow editors. Not adding the category will only hide the article from the view of readers of animal rights topics. However, I agree with whatever other editors feel unanimously. Rasnaboy (talk) 05:50, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Horseshit. If I put Category:Psychopathology on the page for the page Republican Party (United States), you don't think that violates WP:NPOV? Categories, like every other byte of information on any page, are subject to NPOV, however strongly opinionated editors may feel they are "objectively true". HCA (talk) 16:55, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

@HCA: Your analogy is extremely weak (see, e.g., Argument from analogy § Strength of an analogy). Animal testing is already in Category:Animal welfare, which is the parent category of Category:Cruelty to animals. For your analogy to be strong, Republican Party (United States) would have to already be in one of the parent categories of Category:Psychopathology, namely Category:Abnormal psychology or Category:Psychiatry, but it is not. The analogy is not even close, and does not support your position. Biogeographist (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

And you completely missed the point. The point had nothing to do with what subcats and parent cats something is in, that's irrelevant - it's that WP:NPOV applies to Categories. HCA (talk) 19:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

@HCA: No, I didn't miss the point; I understand your point perfectly. The point of my comment, in case you missed it, is that your unsuitable analogy "Animal testing is to Category:Cruelty to animals as Republican Party (United States) is to Category:Psychopathology" did not support your position that "Animal testing does not belong in Category:Cruelty to animals due to violation of WP:NPOV". Whether or not the placing of Republican Party (United States) into Category:Psychopathology violates WP:NPOV tells us absolutely nothing about whether the placing of Animal testing into Category:Cruelty to animals violates WP:NPOV, because the categorization schemes being compared are not analogous. Biogeographist (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's a valid point. So let me make a better analogy by staying within the parent category. Category:Animal welfare also contains the subcategory Category:Veterinary medicine and other categories of being kind to animals. But veterinary medicine is not typically considered to be animal cruelty. That's because, although they share a parent category, the subcategories represent different branches of the category tree. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's a much better analysis. Biogeographist (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm glad we are seeing some common ground. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the category is problematic for this article. Cats are not a vehicle for advocacy. Jytdog (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

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