Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:53, 1 February 2018

Albanian language received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Languages High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Albania Top‑importance Albanian language is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Kosovo Top‑importance Albanian language is part of WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Kosovo on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.KosovoWikipedia:WikiProject KosovoTemplate:WikiProject KosovoKosovo Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Spelling-to-sound: ‹r›

Shouldn't ‹r› actually be /ɽ/? It does not sound like an alveolar tap, but like a retroflex flap.

Spelling-to-sound: ‹r›

Shouldn't ‹r› actually be /ɽ/? It does not sound like an alveolar tap, but like a retroflex flap.

Spelling-to-sound <gj> and q_and_q">

Shouldn't it be changed to voiced and voiceless palatal affricates respectively?

Albanian stops are unaspirated

http://mudrac.ffzg.unizg.hr/~rmatasov/Albanian.pdf That means the english examples should be changed. /p/ is not pronounced like in 'pen', but like in 'spin'.

e and o are higher than the table shows, almost same level or higher than ë

http://www.kfs.oeaw.ac.at/publications/2003_moosmueller_granser_the_vowels_of_standard_albanian.pdf

Just a Romance language

What the F? I've just listened to a few hours of Albanian with English translations during the last few days, and I can understand almost everything with my knowledge of Romance languages - in fact, Albanian seems totally a Romance language to me, closer to Italian than even Romanian. Granted, the words are more "distorted" or rather transformed away from Latin than with other Romance languages, but still clearly recognizable/intellegible. In short, I find it utterly absurd to consider it an independent branch of IE, it should be considered a Romance language or at least very closely related to the Romance branch. --91.47.41.241 (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

What makes a language part of an independent branch of IE is independent of how much it's borrowed from neighboring languages. There are a lot of French words in English, a lot of German words in Estonian, and a lot of Persian words in Armenian, but that's neither here nor there. Heck, there are a lot of Arabic words in Persian, and a lot of Chinese words in Japanese, but in both cases, they aren't even in the same language family!

As for Albanian, it has borrowed vocabulary from Latin, Slavic, Greek, Turkish, Italian, and English, not just Latin and Italian.

Even when it's borrowed vocabulary from Latin, it's not necessarily obvious because of sound and meaning changes, so I really doubt that even with the most talented ear, you could actually pick up much Albanian from knowing Romance languages.

Even if you're right, that's original research. Can you find a reputable scholar that agrees with you? --Macrakis (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

In the field of linguistics Albanian is treated as an independent branch due it still containing a core of some few hundred words that are unique to it, along with its own language rules and substratum on which other borrowings occurred. Its more complicated, and the main article goes into that.Resnjari (talk) 08:54, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

To be fair: Romanian and Albanian have a very limited mutual intelligibility (i.e. not really but far beyond that which is typical of languages of different branches), due to sharing a lot of core vocab as well as the same set of later influences (Greek, Slavic, Turkish). So an Albanian speaker, especially one who knows a bit of a Romance language could hear sentences from that Romanian sentences like "am nevoie de tine" and understand what many of them mean (note "nevoie" is shared but its actually not originally Latin). It's also true that Latin vocab in Albanian is more than half the lexicon, so Albanian is slightly more Latinized than English and also more than some langues d'oil. The good comparison would be Armenian and Persian -- and notably Armenian was misclassified as an Iranic language for a time.

I'm planning to make a page on this in a few months or so, if anyone is interested in contributing, along the lines of Slavic influence on Romanian, using Orel and etc. Any other sources in that area are greatly appreciated, because I do want more variety of authors to pull from. --Calthinus (talk) 18:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

BS. Albanian is an own branch bc-it-is-an-own-branch. Finally get over it and stop being so salty.

Do you really think you know better than SEVERAL linguists who STUDIED and SPEAK albanian. How ignorant (avoiding the word 'stupid') are you?

If albanian was a romance language - it would be THE romance language. However, Albanian is much older than latin. So... 🙂 ILYHDRAB (talk) 06:24, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

E tmerrshme kjo, krejt te huajtit duan ta shkruan historine tone, ta ndertojn historin dhe gjuhen tone sic duan ata.. ju lumt te gjithve atinve qe kontribojn fakte te verteta ne keto artikuj ..

Firma me emrin MOLIKA në Tetov (Maqedoni) mashtron popullin i cili ka shum probleme më të holla kjo firm jep para saksisht deri (200 euro) dhe pasi mbaron obligimi njerzit i marin parat dhe pastaj i japin sërish dërsa kur regjistrohen në pun rregjistruesi thot do ju fi nje leter!E ju do pyesni se cfar letre?Ai do thot nuk ka rëndesi! Letra do vi kur ta mbaroni punën dhe ju aty punsoheni pasi kryhet xhdo gjë arrin letra dhe aty shkruan duhet ti ktheni 1130 denar apo pak me ndryshe 10 perqindëshin.

Kryesor Ylber ..... 19!! Regjistror Faton ..... 1991-1992 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.217.2.241 (talk) 13:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Pre-Greek Words section

A recently added section entitle "Pre-Greek Words" is problematic.

Its first two paragraphs read:

In many of the ancient Greek writings there are found many words that are considered pre-Greeks, ‘Barbarian’, and non-Greek origin. Ancient Greek authors like Socrates have stated that some of the names (Gods, Places, etc) have a foreign origin. New researchers have noticed that some of those considered pre-Greeks word belong to Albanian language vocabulary.

For instance, in The Dialogues of Plato's Cratylus, Socrates states: "To say that names which we do not understand are of foreign origin; and this is very likely the right answer, and something of this kind may be true of them;". Also when he tries to give the etymology of the word Pan, Socrates states: “Then surely Pan, who is the declarer of all things (παν) and the perpetual mover (αι πόλος) of all things, is rightly called αιπόλος ‘aipolos’". In Albanian ‘ai polos’ = ‘He is playing’ and the God Pan allays is depicted to play the pan flute.

There are indisputably pre-Greek words in Greek, either from other Indo-European languages (possibly including the ancestor of Albanian) and from non-Indo European languages. But Socrates is not a WP:RS reliable source for historical linguistics. In any case, it is unclear what these paragraphs have to do with this article. The third paragraph reads:

One of the many authors (like Giuseppe Crispi, Zacharie Mayani, Iakovos Thomopoulos, Niko Stillos, Petrit Laze, etc.) that takes this direction further is Altin Kocaqi in his book “Dokumente historiko-gjuhësore: vëndi i shqipes ndër gjuhët evropiane” (Historic-Linguistic Documents: the role of Albanian language in European languages). He takes into consideration pre-Greek world found in Hesychius of Alexandria, Homer, Herodotus, Hesiod, etc. He placed hundreds of the pre-Greek world side by side with the Modern Greek translation and the Albanian word. Clearly demonstrating that those pre-Greek words meaning it is preserved in the Albanian words. For instance, the first word starting Homer’s Iliad (Homeric Greek) is "Μῆνιν" (minin, mënin) that means ‘anger’ and in Greek is translated in ‘θυμός’ while the corresponding Albanian words are in Geg dialect ‘mëni’ and in Tosk dialect ‘mëri’. So, clearly the Albanian word preserves the meaning and proves that the pre-Greek word belongs to Albanian language.

Zacharie Mayani is a well known fringe researcher with theories about Etruscan and Albanian which are not accepted in academic circles.

No bibliography is given for Iakovos Thomopoulos, Niko Stillos, and Petrit Laze, and a quick search on Google Scholar finds no publications. So they don't belong in the article.

Giuseppe Crispi's work on Albanian was published in 1831, and doesn't take into account the (then-novel) Indo-European theory. And of course historical linguistics has moved on since then in many other ways as well.

I have not seen Altin Kocaqi's book (and I'm afraid I don't read Albanian), but again, he seems to be unknown in the scholarly world. The fact that some words in Homeric Greek are similar to some words in modern Albanian can be explained in many ways, and does not "prove that the pre-Greek word belongs to Albanian language". For one thing, the accepted Indo-European etymology of μῆνις (me:nis) is *men- and is related to other words in Greek (μανία 'madness, rage', μαίνομαι 'to rage, be mad') and other Indo-European languages (Sanskrit manyu- 'spirit, anger, rage'). Albanian could have inherited the same IE root, it could have borrowed the word at some early stage, or it could be a coincidence.

I conclude that this is a fringe theory and does not belong on the Albanian language page. --Macrakis (talk) 22:06, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

1. ^ Plato; B. Jowett, M.A. “Charmides. Lysis. Laches. Protagoras. Euthydemus. Cratylus. Phaedrus. Ion. Symposium”. New York, 1892. P.366. Google Books.
2. Plato; B. Jowett, M.A. “Charmides. Lysis. Laches. Protagoras. Euthydemus. Cratylus. Phaedrus. Ion. Symposium”. New York, 1892. P.352. Google Books.

@Macrakis: First things first: Since you do not know Albanian language at all... why are you editing these page and talking about theories you admit you can not understand? You are clearly acting emotionally as a 'Greek Nazi' by censuring information!

First paragraph, I have taken Socrates work which is on the internet for anyone to see! Not as a linguistic theory but as an language used with word to be translated and understood. Since you can not understand the sample word in Greek language than why dispute something you do not know?!

If I see an Albanian word or expression than I have the right to point it out as it is Albanian! After all I am citing the work and properly directing to those who would like to research it further. Why so many World Authors cite Socrates?!

The same with the other word sample taken from Omer' Iliad, since you do not understand Albanian why don't you talk about what you can make out of English and Greek?!

So basically you are saying: "When I show you the wolf, you ask me for the tracks of that wolf!"

I did not show you a similar word but the same word written in Greek alphabet and than in Latin alphabet. The meaning of that word does not change! That is important to get it. In English is translated Anger, In Greek 'Thimos' (θυμός), In Albania 'Mëni', in Homeric is written "Μῆνιν" (mënin) and NOT 'μῆνις' (me:nis). So you are writing it incorrectly trying to fit in a complete different word by mining and writing!

Simply, cause you do not know Albanian that gives you the authority to esclude it from being Albanian?!

I am not telling you theories, the only conclusion is for those who do not know what you already accepted: That there are pre-Greek words that come from a different language. But when I see the word, after writing it with the Latin character instead of Greek character, that matches the Albanian word... there is no theory at all.

Do you you understand that if the word is written the same and it has the same meaning in the context, than they are the same?!

Instead you want to accept something that a stupid author (s) used to do to make everything SOUND Greek just because!

People who twist and turn the words to make you believe they are the same: So AGAIN from Μῆνιν" (mënin) you take "μῆνις (me:nis)" ... do you see the first twist 'ν' into 'ς'?! ... than compare it with different words (μανία 'madness, rage', μαίνομαι 'to rage, be mad')"!!! Just because you are Greek and you like to call it Greek word... Now that you mention it ... you are a maniac (this it really comes from μανία)!

Also, what is wrong if some Author research and translate Etruscan into Albanian?

Does it mean that nobody is allow to translate ancient scripts into Albanian?

@Macrakis: You say "In any case, it is unclear what these paragraphs have to do with this article. "

It is about Albanian Language, and when providing knowledge that there are some Albanian words in use that match Pre-Greek or Non-Greeek Homeric time words!

So it is like doing language 'archeology' ... what it there you looking to understand?

You accept that it may be, but because you do not know Albanian language at all.. you do not accept it! The problem is that many of the Best Authors out there often make mistakes and often are forced politically to right not true information. We need a bit of logic to sort out now and than :)

First of all, for Greeks it is shocking to learn that half of them have same origin with Albanian. A few years ago to write in Misplaced Pages that Arvanites are same as Albanian was impossible, but now the page in Misplaced Pages exists and I was write 10 years ago while those who argued with me... have nothing but to accept of wasting their time arguing for nothing.

Anyway, still there is a paragraph about Petro Zheji and his book "The Messianic Role of Albanian language". One day will be a hit!

The Dictatorship in Albania did not allow the book to be published. So, do you want the knowledge?

(unsigned post by User:BenWeb13 2018-01-29T21:07:19)

No, this is crazy fringe material that will never be a hit, especially not if its title claims Albanian's historical role was "messianic"... I'm familiar with some of the literature in Albanian historical linguistics. If you want to read actually good material about the history of Albanian, check out Demiraj or Cabej or Orel, etc. Also please do not go into off-topic tangents about Arvanites -- the talk page is not a WP:FORUM for you to express your views about whatever comes to mind, it has to be relevant. --Calthinus (talk) 03:09, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

BenWeb13, Please indent your contributions consistently. You need to use the same number of ":" in front of every new line. Also, please sign your contributions. You can do this using --~~~~, which automatically fills in your name and the timestamp.

Now, for the substance.

Calling me a "Greek Nazi" is personal attack and is not allowed by our rules. If you do that again, an administrator will probably sanction you. Your comment "Just because you are Greek and you like to call it Greek word... Now that you mention it ... you are a maniac" is also an unacceptable personal attack.

Please read our rules about what constitutes a reliable source. Socrates is of course an important historical figure, and Plato's writing about him is an important primary source, but he is not a reliable source in linguistics.

Your "recognizing" a word as Albanian is what we call original research. The Japanese word namae means 'name' and sounds almost the same. This does not prove that the words are the same. For that matter, it would be very strange for the Albanian word not to have evolved and changed in the 2500+ years since Homer.

As for the first word of Homer's Iliad, it is the accusative form of μῆνις, namely μῆνιν. The fact that modern Greek uses a different word for the same concept has very little importance. Ancient Greek called horses ίππος and modern Greek calls them άλογο; Latin called horses equus, but the modern Romance languages use versions of caballus; so what?

For some reason, you are transcribing μῆνιν as mënin. The Albanian letter <ë> represents the vowel /ə/, while the ancient Greek letter <η> represents the sound /ɛː/; why are you using ë? In any case, I do not know the etymology of mëni; for all I know, it may in fact be related to Greek μῆνις one way or another.

As for the long common history between Greeks and Albanians, I think you'll find in my edit history that I have always been sympathetic to the Albanian/Arvanitic perspective.

Long story short: what is "obvious" to an amateur linguist is not linguistics, and is not acceptable on WP. --Macrakis (talk) 03:34, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Macrakis, OK, initially I did not have your explanation at all. All I had is somebody deleting my work which I did very carefully linked to many pages and citation. The sample ward that I run into reading the book of Plato translated by an English man, it was just as an example to explain that how different researches have found hundreds of them or maybe up to 2 thousand. So, the next paragraph I introduced a new book but you declared it a 'fringe'. For your own knowledge, I tell you that in a few years the sources that you consider as reliable will be called fringe and the new books will be about the real history of Albania with more fact related to Pelasgian and Etruscan as well. The Pelasgian theory of Albanian has been censured since Ottoman Empire. Since then the only language prohibited by law was Albanian language. So, the schools even in Albanian territory (than Province of Ottoman Empire) were in Greek, Latin, Turkish, Bulgarian... but NOT Albanian! Later on the French, English, Russian start applying similar policy by censoring the history of Albania. The turn the 'Greek' Empire into a Modern State Greece and censored the information and forced Arvanites under a Exemplary Genocide. If the Arvanites (who were most of Greece inhabitant) new their real history would accept to call themselves Greeks (as if a special blood type different from Albanian) and hate their ancient roots?! BTW, if you like to learn more about Greek history please check "Ben Web" YouTube Channel I have added google books links on the comments below the video clips. --BenWeb13 (talk) 01:28, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Anybody, can you tell if this is a 'fringe' or not? Can I use this as source? Les Pélasges, Précurseurs de la civilisation greco-romaine Histoire/Politique - 446 pages - 170x240 ISBN : 9782753903005 Mathieu Aref https://www.connaissances-savoirs.com/les-pelasges.html/

"Mathieu Aref is a French researcher of Albanian origin born in 1938 in Cairo (Egypt) where he attended secondary and university studies (Arts and Fine Arts) in French and Italian institutions. He has published two books on Prehellenic Greece and Albania (2003/2004) which have been translated into Albanian (2007/2008). He submitted a doctoral thesis at the Sorbonne Paris IV on 3/01/2012 under the title "Research on the Pelasgians at the origin of the Greek civilization". The present work is the result and the outcome of nearly fifty years of studies and research (historical, archaeological, mythological, ethnolinguistic) on the origins of the Greco-Roman civilization and especially the Pelasgians (history, culture and language) predecessors of the Greeks and not their ancestors. The Thracians, Illyrians and current Albanians are their last direct descendants. Finally, his knowledge of the Albanian language allowed him to decipher and decipher most of the anthroponyms, theonyms, toponyms and oronyms of the Iliad, the Odyssey and Greek Mythology." --BenWeb13 (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The publisher is not a peer-reviewed journal. In fact, it looks like a print-on-demand site; it is basically self-published. For future reference, the content guideline Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources explains what is considered a "reliable source" and how to identify them.--William Thweatt 01:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks William, the article was just to let you know about what the book of the Author is. I was told that "Pelasgian" theory is or may be a "fringe", also t check before I post an Author if he is a "Fringe". I am reading the links you suggests, but still some time is difficult to rap the brain around so many regulation and terminology about them. So, what I understand is to check here first if the source is not a 'fringe', and there are at least 3 parts: The Theory, The Author, The Book or Article. So, I posted the link that describes the name of the author, the book, and the theory in short. Here is his Googe Books. Also, here about his Theses: http://www.theses.fr/2012PA040019. What I am asking is can I cite anything from These Author, His Book, or even Mention His Theory as per the WP rules? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenWeb13 (talk • contribs) 14:02, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@BenWeb13:, the Pelasgian theory is pseudo-science, that came from a time in the 19th century when Albanian speaking peoples like the Arvanites began looking into their past and those ideas were borrowed by Albanians thereafter. Over a century and a half has passed and modern scholarship, has made them redundant. Please read this academic a paper by scholar Gilles De Rapper . Should explain things, although is is more out there. With more reading, research and time, you will be able to edit complex topics like this, but if you continue as you are you wont get far in Misplaced Pages and if anything there are other editors out there who might send you off to one of the forums for a sanction. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:12, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari:, Thanks for prompting in discussion. I will read 'Gelles De Rapper' as I have not. But FYI, we have to consider that the info war that is going on since Bulgarian, Serbian, Ottoman Empires and fallow is about the 'Pelasgian origin of Albanian'. Every scholar till today, all that they have accomplished is to provide THEORIES about Albanian Origin and Language! Nobody has made been able to give a 100% definition. So, I suggest that WP Admin and Contributor should step out of the Info War and represent different variants as it has done in the other page partially: "Origin of Albanians". The reason I say partially is that it should allow for the citation of varies Books that some Authors spent many years of research and it will go on and on. I am sure that we can not skip the censure for ever, but it is because of censuring the information that the Balkan is at war for long time! People should have the democratic rights to express themselves in a constrictive way. We know that some authors get invested to spread propaganda and we know that Cabej and Demiraj were under Dictatorship. Altin Kocaqi in his book DOKUMENTE HISTORIKO-GJUHËSORE (Historico-Linguistic Documents) "MARIN BARLETI" 2013, cites both authors Cabej: “Një interes të veçantë për gjuhësinë shqiptare paraqet çështja a ka ndonjë lidhje midis gjuhëve ose gjuhës së substrakteve paragreke të Greqisë së vjetër dhe gjuhës shqipe, ose mbeturinave të atyre substrakteve në këtë gjuhë. Ky problem lidhet me emrin e Pellazgëve e të pellazgjishtes” Eqerem Çabej. “Hyrje në historinë e gjuhës shqipe I”, f 90 sh b “Çabej”, Tiranë 2008. And Demiraj: "Po e fillojmë me mbishkrimin e Limnos 41, 42 që dhe akademiku ynë Shaban Demiraj e pranon si mbishkrim pellazgjik." Demiraj Sh, “Etruskët, Pellazgët, Ilirët dhe Shqiptarët”. Tiranë 2008. Can you read Albanian or I have to translate all? --BenWeb13 (talk) 14:56, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@BenWeb13:, I read Albanian. Çabej, refers to issues of a substratum , or its leftovers, predating Albanian and Greek in the area and says in essence that the issue is linked with Pelasgians and Pelasgian language. By no means it suggests that Albanian and Pelasgian are linked. With Dermiaj all it says is that he considers certain writings on the island of Limnos to be Pelasgian -nthing about it saying its linked with Albanian. I would err on the side of caution with the Pelasgian theory. Arvanities used it and still us it, and its origin came from Greek circles who claimed that the Arvanites were Greek in the 19th century -it was in regards to assimilation etc. Some Albanians borrowed it as well, and it has been somewhat revived post 1992. In the end as of now its pseudo-science, as scholarship, credible ones, have not linked it to Albanian, nor with Greek. Read up on this. Use google books and scholar to find and access sources using key words like Pelasgian, Albanian etc. Best. On the Albanian language, most recent schoalrly views on the Albanian language are that it formed below the Danube sometime after the collapse of the Roman Empire out of paleo-Balkan peoples and languages (first source a lecture , second is Rusakov -2017 who gives the latest scholarly views etc on the Albanian language . Resnjari (talk) 15:41, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari:, I have read and continue to read about this as it is going on until properly accepted. But the new Author that link what Cabej and Demiraj (which both under dictatorship and not allow to continue research in Pelasgian theories!) are saying, has worked to continue deciphering the Lemno's steel. So, both this authors have opened the door to further research. Demiraj accept that Lemno's steel is Pelasgian. Kocaqi (and many Albanian authors) is deciphering it and linking it to Albanian language. Also, Cabej accept that there are Ancient Greek words that are Pelagian, and Kocaqi again compare those to Albanian. Can we cite it? --BenWeb13 (talk) 15:56, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@BenWeb13:,Demiraj says clearly on page 51 “barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht”. For others translated means "a Pellasgian-Illyrian reconciliation can not be argued for as being either historical or linguistically". In other words Illyrian stemming from Pelasgian, is a no, no. Cabej also does not make such claims. Look under communism there was censorship but one can not infer what was in a academic's head and it would be improper of us to speculate. We can only go by what they have published. Also Demiraj is around long after communism collapsed and has still not been in favour of Pelasgian-Albanian or Pelasgian-Illyrian links. Linguists however can discuss other languages that existed in the area etc as its their scholarly area of research like Cabej and Demiraj when discussing Pelasgians have always placed them in their ancient context (like the "Lemno's steel") without making speculations that could be fringe like being linked with Albanians or even the Illyrians. On Kocaqi, i would not put much into it. Even and when he publishes, i don't doubt for a second he will come under intense scrutiny first off from Albanian scholars yet alone from Western ones. Beni, you need to read up on the Pelsagian theory, its pseudo-science.Resnjari (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The scholarly consensus today is that the ancient Greeks called "Pelasgian" anything that was old and not Greek. There is no reason to believe that there was a single Pelasgian people or language. Think of it as "pre-Greek", no more, no less. This may change some day, but Misplaced Pages doesn't publish new theories until they are accepted by some significant part of the international scholarly community. --Macrakis (talk) 16:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Wise words @Macrakis:. Much appreciated.Resnjari (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

First thanks both and I have to agree with Macrakis last summery about the Pelasgian theory and its approval status, that was my assumption also. But I have to clarify what I have said. Cabej is admiting the existance of Pelasgian and related words (as you say left overs) and new researches are comparing them with the Albanian word. What you are saying is that we should not dare to compare those with Albanian words at least for the WP readers. Not even mentioning their similarity with Albanian words! While Demiraj an old man decided to look into the Pelasgian theories after long contribution under Totalitarian Dictatorship. What I said is that he accept the Lemno's steel as being Pelasgian. It is not up to him to force other conclusions upon next generation. What I am saying is: when the researchers of all nations have the right to try and decipher Lemno's Steel using any other language they know, why not Albanian using Albanian language are not allowed to do so or being rejected without even read?! What I get from your comments is that "Pelasgian origin of Albanian language is considered a 'Fringe' theory" and secondly nobody is consider as reliable source until we see that Albanian survive the war and all Serbian and other Nationalism will accepted defeat. For my opinion that is discrimination and part of being victim of others Nationalism. Protecting human rights of victims from the genocide and suppression of established Nationalism it is NOT a Nationalism! This is not only about suppression of human rights under a Dictatorship but also conspiracy by the Dictator and his chosen Academics to accept the Approved Framework by foreign agencies! When we talk about 100+ years of Genocide which comes of varies ways apply, for sure many Albanian themselves have been and still work against their own National interest. Like I told you earlier, I do not just help people but I define the core problem. I understand that WP executives may decide to enforce certain policies and I accept them by first clarifying the limits. I will continue with other ways to see that the pseudo-western Academics to be exposed as they deserve on fueling Nationalism. After all they have accepted destruction of Roman (Western Roman) and 'Greek' (Eastern Roman) Empires and creating Modern States in Balkan. I understand it is not up to any of WP Admin to address issue of Human Rights. As I may said early, I am defining the core problem that comes from the suppressed Academia, also the WP rules about how to chose the allowed resources. Another detail clarification is related to statement "Think of it as "pre-Greek", no more, no less" I agree with this statement. But are we allow to compare those "pre-Greek" words with Albanian words? I understand you are not allowing to be called "Albanian", but mentioning that SOME of those "pre-Greek" words are SIMILAR to Albanian words? --BenWeb13 (talk) 19:20, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@BenWeb13:, on Demiraj, its one thing about him writing and suggesting that the Lemnos etchings might be Pelasgian and its another thing for us to draw a conclusion with and inferring something when there is nothing more to it. Demiraj is a linguist whose academic research expertise goes beyond just looking at Albanian but other Balkan related linguistic stuff. In his discussion on the Lemnos artifact it revolves around that and is disconnected from anything to do with Albanians, Illyrians etc. With Cabej his suggestions in his studies is that Pelasgian may have left a few words in Balkan languages that came after and replaced it. This is not something new in scholarship and has been cited in Western literature among linguists such as words in Greek that do not come from Hellenic stock and can not be explained as coming from anywhere else (see: Pre-Greek substrate) but are identified as being very old. I cannot stress this enough, Cabej and Demiraj have not engaged in pseudo-science of the Pelasgian theory. As for modern day research on the Pelsagians, it all in the realm of the hypothetical and on the fringe side. Caution must be taken. You need to do wide scale reading. The Pelasgian theory overall was invented in 19th century Greek political and cultural circles who needed something more to incorporate the Arvanites of the time whose Albanian traits (such as language) where a barrier to assimilation. This theory gave the Arvanites an avenue to say they were part of the Greek ethnicity and to fuse into one the Greek speaking and Albanian speaking inhabitants in the kingdom of Greece and its something Arvanites believe strongly even today. Nonetheless, whatever their beliefs and that of Albanians who have borrowed those ideas from them, in the end they are fringe and pseudo-science rejected in credible scholarship. I am saying this to be mean or anything, but you need to do a lot of reading, and i mean a lot. Otherwise you will be in all sorts of strife on wiki. You still have not come across certain editors who wont hesitate to make things difficult and send you over to the forums for a sanction without much discussion, like i have done here or a few other editors who have taken the time and care because your e newbie to the wiki project. You have an energy and that is good. But if you want to be around on Misplaced Pages, familiarize yourself with policy guidelines such as wp:reliable and wp:secondary on source and please do wide range reading and importantly observe wp:civil. Doing that will set you in good stead going forward. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:52, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari:, I am not saying to simply draw a conclusion on Lemno's steel. Even if it is not called Pelasgian or Etruscan, still Albanian researches have the right to try and decipher using Albanian language! I am not saying here me or you to draw a conclusion based on what Demiraj or Cabej say. We have to understand something very important. When we talk about Indo-European Languages Theory it simply a THEORY. So, theoretically anybody can draw their conclusions. But this theories are not Laws and have their own undefined areas. For instance there are not "Indo-European People" ... it is simple Grouping of Languages with a common label. So, to get back to Demiraj and Cabej they accept what they can in the circumstance. We only are limited to refer to as much as they are admitted as a reliable source. They did not attempt or could not decipher the Lemno's steel or did they?! Did anyone decipher it and it is acceptably by Academics? Can you post the attempts done by a few using Albanian language? Why not? What about the reading of Zagreb's Mumie? Can we publish (MENTION) a reference attempted reading using Albanian language done by Niko Stillo who have published an Etruscan - Albanian Dictionary? When Heinrich Schliemann found Troy we all cheer for it... so only when a foreign researcher using a foreign (non-Albanian) language decipher something we must accepted. Who was Ventri that we must accept it?! I am sure that Demiraj and Cabej and many Academics knows about what happen to Milan Suffly. Do you know that in Ottoman Archive was found a book not published about Pelasgian origin of Albanian? That proves the theory existed long before 19th century! I do know well the theory and anti-theories invented to convince the Arvanite (Albanian of Greece) under genocide to accept to the new ruler. Do you know why Arvanites have not been allowed to speak Albanian in public at all and discourage to speak at home?! I am not trying to convince you for no other reason but to clarify as you more then me need to understand the roots of the problems. My effort is exactly to define why Albanian are discouraged and in what ways, to find their own origin and also accept slavery and total ethnic cleansing. I do appreciate you and everybody who made comments and being patient with me. I am clearing out that I have not any complexity against you. But we all learn by exchange of ideas. When I talk about Nationalism I hold no hate against the people who are of that particular Nation but against the Phenomenon and the clan or agency who embrace it. I will check all links you suggest in time. BTW, if you check the YouTube video you suggested early, I have made some comment few months ago 'Ben Web'. Thank you!

Linguists are not sure about the nature of Pelasgian language, but one thing which we can be sure of is that we can not compare the current form of modern Albanian words with ancient ones. Have a look at the Old Albanian of Buzuku (which is the Albanian spoken 500 years ago) and you will understand how much language can change within 500 years. Now try to project it 3000 years ago and you will get a vague idea of how big this difference can be. Aigest (talk) 22:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Aigest for prompting in this discussion. I checked that link Renjari brought to my attention: Pre-Greek substrate, even Proto-Greek language. So, when an Albanian researchers compare them to Albanian language word should we keep it secret? Or wait when an English, Jewish, American author find it? Not even able to MENTION that "A. Kocaqi has run a comparison table of 2000 pre-Greek words with Albanian words and Greek words and waiting to be peer reviewed."? BTW, I am not sure when you say "WE" who do you mean? Do you know the work of Altin Kocaqi, Niko Stillo, Arif Mati, Petrit Laze, etc.? --BenWeb13 (talk) 22:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Renjari, what about Eduard Schneider book or his translated book from Lek Pervizi (ex-prisoner) and article about it? Do you think he was "told by Arvanites"? Can we mention anything about Eduard Schneider or his translated book Eduard Shnaider: “PELLAZGET e pasardhësit e tyre!”? --BenWeb13 (talk) 23:22, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Look Ben, there are zillions of sources discrediting the outdated Pelasgian theory on wikipedia, yes it is fringe, we have gone round and round in circles about this, please read mainstream literature. We can only mention it insofar as discussing its former existence and perhaps its (unfortunate) persistence in certain Albanian fringe nationalist circles. Same goes for Etruscans. As for lule, this is a substrate word that is shared by both Greek and Albanian. Tho wiktionayr attributes both the Albanian, and Greek (and also Sanskirt, Persian and English, i.e. lily) words to Egyptian ]. It has no Proto-Indo-European etymology and is thus extremely unlikely to be of Albanian (or Greek) origin -- instead it is from some mysterious substrate language that we know nothing about and sadly probably won't ever know much about. Just because some Albanian words sound like words in other languages with the same meaning does not mean you or wacky "scholars" can instantly assume Albanian is the source, much less modern Albanian. --Calthinus (talk) 02:16, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I have access to the book Ancient Languages of the Balkan (Katicic 1976). There you have summary on Pelasgian theories. Yes there are some renowned linguists (they fulfill WP:RS) who link Albanian with Pelasgian. Try to find and read that book and if you don't find it just mail me. Aigest (talk) 09:53, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class language articles
• High-importance language articles
• WikiProject Languages articles
• C-Class Albania articles
• Top-importance Albania articles
• WikiProject Albania articles
• C-Class Kosovo articles
• Top-importance Kosovo articles
• WikiProject Kosovo articles