Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:52, 19 October 2006

Advice on royalty pages: Misplaced Pages follows a strict formula for royal pages, in terms of content, layout and naming. The basic rules are:

• All monarchs and royal families are named using their highest ranking title; for example, King Edward VIII, not the Duke of Windsor.
• Styles are not used in articles; instead, a style box is always used.
• The image goes on the top-right hand side of all pages.
• For past monarchs and their children, the royal house template is used.
• For current monarchs and their descendants, the royal family template is used.
• Both templates are never used together.
• Because many articles are quite small, with the text sometimes smaller than one template, the royal house template for both houses is not used. Instead only the template of the senior parent (ie, whichever was the monarch, not the consort) is used.
• A royal consort has the template of the royal family they marry into, not of the family they were born into, on their page. However once they die, their birth family template replaces the marital royal family template.

  With thousands of articles on royalty, and hundreds of contributors to them, the same standard format needs to be used across each article. Any inadvertent content, layout or naming that does not match that format is deleted to restore the article to the agreed format. For full details on royal naming rules, see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles).

  Any changes that do not follow the Naming Conventions are automatically reverted on sight. FearÉIREANN\ 23:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I apologise. But so much stuff that broke the MoS and NC rules had been added in that I had to revert to the last page compliant with the MoS and NC. That is standard, unfortunately, when so much POV and MoS-breaking stuff is added. Please do add in information. Just be careful to source it and write it in an NPOV way. WP's job is neither to be pro- or anti- Leka, republicans or monarchists. Edits that appear to push one side fall foul of NPOV. FearÉIREANN\ 19:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Vittorio Emanuele - Crown Prince?

I disagree with how you have interpreted the guidelines above on this page, please see Talk:Vittorio_Emanuele,_Prince_of_Naples and respond there if wish to progress this. Also, I don't know where the guidelines above come from and whether they are valid and binding (as far as any rule or guideline on Misplaced Pages can be binding, that is). --SandyDancer 13:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Did you look here...Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles).? You will find it supports what I have said.--Couter-revolutionary 13:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see, those guidelines simply don't support what you have said. Can you actually explain, specifically, how and where the guidelines support your view? --SandyDancer 14:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• Hi I just need your assistance on this issue can you be kind and revert the page content for the principal VE page and revert to the last content ( its because ive done it to many times , you know the 3rr rule , so please move ahead for me) thanks for your assistance --Netquantum 16:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, would suggest that you shouldn't assist others in violating the 3RR. - Nunh-huh 17:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• you phoney you are the one who first came in because of someone's request. Sandydancer. this is no violation of wikipedia and has nothing to do with kosher , anyone can vote and call for voters--Netquantum 17:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

"phoney"? See Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks --SandyDancer 17:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

You've mistated the facts. If your advice to Couter-revolutionary is that he re-do your indiscriminate removal of information, that's bad counsel. - Nunh-huh 17:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• its not bad counsel its just that eventually Counter revolutionary will and is undertsanding that the article was full of false facts and comments. please stop waisting our time with unnessesary comments and atitudes.--Netquantum 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'm afraid I was away and unable to contribute. I shall read through the rest of the article to see what the problems are, thanks goodness, however, he has now come to realise that VE should actually be referred to as Prince of Naples, or at least I think he has.--Couter-revolutionary 17:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me be totally clear - I don't agree he should be referred to as that, and you have not advanced any arguments to support your view that he should. I just don't see any point in arguing the point with you anymore on my own, and will wait for someone else to get involved. You are, I think, adopting a deliberate tactic of trying to confuse the issue by misrepresenting what I have written, and pretending to offer explanations for your view when in fact you are doing no such thing (i.e. you keep referring to the guidelines on royal naming conventions as if they support your argument, but refuse to demonstrate that they do, because you know your claim is false). --SandyDancer 17:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• not ist just that now I want to revert the article ( i am not the one to do it because ive done it a lot today and need thrid party opinion) , so what is your opinion and the revert so that we can move on with clear content and not carbidge populist false claims. --Netquantum 17:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep obsessively (mis)using the word "populist"? You appear to simply want to obscure the issue by constantly referring to the same tired mantra, hoping it will shield the fact you have deleted half of an article to whitewash the past of the subject. --SandyDancer 17:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with you Netquantum.--Couter-revolutionary 17:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• please revert the article and bring it back to the clean content . thanks. the point is still the same most of the article is false. so i suggest cleaning. even if this man is unpopular, there is no reason on posting false reports on wikipedia.--Netquantum 17:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• Examples which support my viewpoint Sandydancer include Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece and Leka, Crown Prince of Albania.--Couter-revolutionary 18:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't convince me at all. If anything, those articles should be edited to reflect the fact that they aren't Crown Princes because the thrones they are claiming to be Crown Prince in respect of have both been abolished. I note on the Leka article you are one of the main contributors, by the way, so using that as an example is somewhat circular. It runs contrary to common sense and is extremely POV to refer to members of former royal families by titles they would hold but for the abolition. It is as if we are endorsing their claims. If these are merely "courtesy titles", recognised on royal circuits and by die-hard monarchists, they doesn't justify their inclusion when they have zero legal value. --SandyDancer 18:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with you Counter-revo. did you see my comments explaining the true historical fact in his Belgian passport it says : HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS PRINCIPE DI NAPOLI, DUCHI DI SAVOIA

I simply do not accept that in any country in the world the subject of the article is legally recognised as being royalty. The Belgian Government do not accept that Italy is still a monarchy. No country does. End of story.--SandyDancer 18:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Counter-revo. do you agree to revert the article to the previous page ...!--Netquantum 18:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have had a go at a clean-up of what I think is not NPOV, what do you think.--Couter-revolutionary 18:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have done a few clean up as well :)--Netquantum 18:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I don't agree that Vittorio Emanuele should be referred to as "Prince of Naples" as if that is settled fact - it is a nonsense to refer to him as such. However, it is clearly preferable to referring to him as "Crown Prince of Italy", which is considerably more ridiculous. Vittorio Emanuele no longer has any Italian royal or noble titles, as such titles were abolished under the Italian Constitution in 1946. I am just not willing to argue the point any more as another user has pointed out that doing so is an uphill struggle, and not one I am currently interested in undertaking. --SandyDancer 10:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are aware that User:Netquantum is stating that you agree with his deletion of sourced and unbiased material from the Vittorio Emanuele article. I cannot imagine you do in fact agree with this - your edits to the article were largely to do with naming conventions, but he is involving you in the broader dispute about whether the "controversies" section of the article should be blanked / NPOV tag placed on the article. --SandyDancer 12:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

=

Worth pointing out that the institution of monarchy was abolished in Italy by a parliament packed with communists. Also worth pointing out that it is the prerogative of the monarch, whether in situ or in exile, to bestow whatever titles he wishes, something which has always been his gift and has nothing whatsoever to do with parliaments. 213.122.40.214 13:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'm afraid you've got me mixed up with someone else as I absoulutely agree with you 100%. I also believe a Monarch's right to give honours (whether on the throne or not) is a natural and inate right, which cannot be taken away. I hope this puts your mind to rest; I am a monarchist.--Couter-revolutionary 14:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

"Worth pointing out that the institution of monarchy was abolished in Italy by a parliament packed with communists" - no, it was abolished following a referendum, and the reasons why the people made the choice were clear.

"I also believe a Monarch's right to give honours (whether on the throne or not) is a natural and inate right, which cannot be taken away". Only makes any sense if, as you say you are, one is a Monarchist. Even if you are a monarchist, don't you draw distinctions between monarchies like Italy's that only emerged in the modern world as an expedient on the whim of politicians, and those that have endured for centuries (like Britain's, Japan's and some others) and acquired a legitimacy through longevity and the the evolution of a constitution around the institution of monarchy?

I am interested in your responses. I am certainly not being rude so please don't respond as if I am! --SandyDancer 08:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest. No, I don't actually draw distinctions between monarchies which are ancient and those which are not. For a start the Savoys were royalty anyway who were elevated to Kings of a unified Italy, the country had not previously existed. This is similar to what happened in Germany and I definitely support their royal family who were the ancient Kings of Prussia. As well as this I also agree with the founding of the Albanian Monarchy and the House of Zogu, as, if one knows about King Zog's life, there were a lot of occurances, which, I believe paved the way for his rightful place as King of Albania. King Zog was, however, also descended from an ancient aristocreatic family and the legendary King, Skandebeg. Hope this helps.--Couter-revolutionary 11:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You talk about occurences having "paved the way for rightful place as King of Albania". What kind of occurences could these be?

I take your point about the Savoys and the Hohenzollern's gaining legitmacy from having been a reigning royal family of a monarchy which became a constituent part of a larger one.

What I don't understand is how you can claim that monarchs per se, even when deposed by Parliaments or the people in a referendum, can still claim legitimacy and royal status, especially as you seem to be saying that this is the case irrespective of the monarchy in question's history of how they came to power? If monarchies are so easy to make, why can they not be unmade? What special event happens when someone declares themself, or is declared, a monarch which means they can never be removed? What happens when succession rules change by act of a legislature, meaning the person who is next in line to the throne no longer accedes in favour of someone else? Is the new monarch illegitimate, or does the act of the legislature which changed the line of succession make it legitimate? If the latter, how come it is OK for a legislature to change the line of succession or some other basic characteristic of a monarchy but not OK for a monarchy to be abolished in the same way? --SandyDancer 12:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Well in King Zog's case there were many factors. I believe his family history had been building up to his being crowned King, there was a prophecy at his birth fortelling him as the "Star of Mati", he had lead his troops into battle and been democratically elected. I believe that there is a certain amount of power needed to found a monarchy which is more transcendant than what we are used to in this world, I appreciate you may find that odd, and it probably sounds odder than I mean it too. These people, Kings of Men, do posess qualities other's don't, Zog certainly did. There is a very good biography of Queen Geraldine, Zog's consort, which goes into this better than I could, it's by a lady called Robyns. There are some monarchies I do not believe fulfilled the "crieteria for establishment", for instance I do not recognise Bokassa of the Central African Empire! I hope this explains what I mean, although it is hard to put it into words! Essentially it's a gut feeling that the throne belongs to a Monarch as a birth right...--Couter-revolutionary 14:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Would it be fair to say that your belief in the innate legitimacy of some monarchies (but not all, e.g. Bokassa) stems from a religious or quasi-religious belief? The reason I ask is that it does not appear to stem from any conventional jurisprudential theories. --SandyDancer 15:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that could be said to be true to a certain extent, although of course some form of legality is required, hence the need for coronations &c. One must remember also that even Zog was brought into power on a wave of popular thought!--Couter-revolutionary 15:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

hello, hope you are well, can you look in this issue at http://en.wikipedia.org/Enviga and give me push because Petegranger seems to be working for this product or new on wikipedia, the only thing he has ever edited so far is Enviga...--Netquantum 11:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)