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== Baseless Statement == == Baseless Statement ==


Is there any explanation as to how Hezbollah can systematically target civilians when in fact the majority of those killed Israeli colonists in July-August 2006 were soldiers? Additionally, Mr. Nasrallah distinctly apologized for the accidental deaths of Palestinian Arab children. Is there any explanation as to how Hezbollah can systematically target civilians when in fact the vast majority of those killed Israeli colonists in July-August 2006 were in fact military thugs? Additionally, Mr. Nasrallah distinctly apologized for the accidental deaths of Palestinian Arab children. This claim that Hezbollah targets civilians is deranged Zionist POV.

The statement that "many countries" consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization is a factual error. Out of nearly 200 countries in the world, the only countries that slander Hezbollah as terrorist are America/Israel, England, Canada, Nederlands, and Australia.]

Revision as of 03:18, 20 October 2006

Good articlesHezbollah was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (August 12, 2006). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.
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Archive
Archives

Chronological Archive:

  1. May 2003 - June 2006
  2. July 2006 – July 2006
  3. Inactive as of August 7, 2006
  4. Inactive as of August 12, 2006
  5. Inactive as of August 20, 2006
  6. Inactive as of August 31, 2006
  7. Inactive as of September 15, 2006

Topical archive:

  1. POV-Disputed-Controvercial discussions
  2. Terrorist allegations
  3. stance of countries
  4. structure
  5. Lead/Introduction discussions



It is really simple , israel is a terrorist state and hezbollah is a resistance party. just be objective and look and the facts and figures:

The 34-day conflict, sparked by the kidnap of two Israeli soldiers in a Hezbollah cross-border raid on July 12, left nearly 1,300 Lebanese dead, the majority of them civilians, as well as 160 Israelis, mostly soldiers.

and you call hezbollah a terrorist organization??

GOING BY THIS LOGIC - we can put pretty much designate all of the countries participating in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as 'terrorist organisations' including the US, UK, Australia, Canada and many many others. Can your 'logical' 'rational' minds accept that as fact?

It seems as though your reasoning is based on the fact that Hezbollah was unable to kill more civilians - not through lack of trying. One Katyusha proved capable of killing 10 people and thousands were fired into purely civilian areas.

Israel dropped/shot thousands upon thousands of bombs/missiles/shells etc. into Lebanon in the month of fighting - and 1000-1100 civilians were killed - so a terrorist nation that has the most sophisticated weaponry can only manager a kill rate of approximately 1 civilan for every 3 or 4 1/2 tonne bombs! Sounds fairly far fetched - but then again, those with extremist views grasp these sorts of fairy tales quite easily.


Citation

I am a tool. I've noticed that there are a few citations at the bottom that are blank... they are used in parts of the article, and seem to me to be there simply to imply that a certain claim is verified, yet there is no verification... there isn't even a bad link... the footnote is totally blank. What do I/we do about things like this? --GaelicWizard 22:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


I've also noticed that some sources are, well, poor. For example, citation #7 is to a BBC article. The BBC article has /no/ references (that I could find), which I think make it unsuitable for use as a reference itself. Furthermore, the BBC is known for being fairly unfriendly towards Israel in its news coverage. Further-furthermore, the article itself wavers back and forth on the information it presents: It starts by praising Hezbollah, then calls it a terrorist organization, then back and forth throughout the article.I think it should be removed, especially since it is referenced several times in the text. --GaelicWizard 22:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Although the BBC article gives no references and has a history of anti-Israel bias, this specific report seems pretty well researched. I do not think it should be deleted, but I do encourage anyone to add more footnotes to other articles supporting the same or similar findings. If I have the time, perhaps I will do some of this myself. (EDIT: Done. The BBC article is now footnote #8) --GHcool 04:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The BBC recently carried out a survey on its coverage of Israel/Palestine and discovered that it was (quite strongly) biased towards the Israeli position - that a disparity (in favour of Israelis) existed in BBC coverage taken as a whole in the amount of talk time given to non-party political Israelis and Palestinians; - that a disparity (in favour of Israelis) existed in BBC coverage taken as a whole in terms of the appearance of Israeli and Palestinian actors; - that some important themes were relatively overlooked in the coverage of the conflict, most notably in the recent period, the annexation of land in and around East Jerusalem; - that BBC journalists generally did not provide historical context in their reporting of the conflict; - that BBC broadcast news reported Israeli and Palestinian fatalities differently in that Israeli fatalities generally receive greater coverage than Palestinian fatalities etc. PalestineRemembered 17:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems that Yahoo! News has changed their URL scheme, which means that all the citations that reference Yahoo! News don't work... I'll try to find the new URLs. Is there a better way to do this? Also, can I just change the URL of the citation? Do I have to list it here first? I don't want to step on anyone's toes. :-) --GaelicWizard 22:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


Citations #138, #142, and #144 are exactly the same: "Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism (2006-04-28). Country Reports on Terrorism: State Sponsors of Terror Overview. Retrieved on 17 July 2006. " Someone please tell me that it is O.K. to just start changing things. I'm uncertain if things like citations should be as easily changed as article wording. --GaelicWizard 22:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Terrorist organization

Why can't we honest Wikipedians call Hezbollah a terrorist organization? Wasn't Hezbollah created to terrorize Israel? What do we call, shooting four thousand rockets & missiles into Israel to kill indiscriminately as many men, woman & children as possible; isn't that terrorism? Itzse 20:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Because Hezbollah is only struggling people attempting to recover from the "failed state" situation imposed on Lebanon by Israel. (And the Zionists were intent on behaving this way even before there was an Israel). Lots of proof of this - start with David Ben-Gurion to the World Council of Poale Zion in Tel Aviv in 1938, "The boundaries of Zionist aspiration, include southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today's Jordan, all of Cis-Jordan and the Sinai" (cited by Israel Shahak, Journal of Palestine Studies). In 1948 Ben-Gurion was saying "Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria, and Sinai" (Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: A Biography). PalestineRemembered 18:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
isnt it "terrorism" to punish a whole nation, namely Lebanon, because of an action of a couple of guerilla fighters from the hezbollah? Bombing the whole infrastructure. Various human rights groups have described these as war crimes (well, duh!). Collective punishment is ILLEGAL under the geneva convention.

The war (for it was a war) was aimed at destroying the inferstructure of Hezbollah, a terrorist orginazation that attacked israel blantly by killing 3 soldiers, capturing 2 more, and sending rockets into israel.

I would call a military operation against "a whole nation" a war, but that's just me... --GaelicWizard 22:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I will happily change hezbollah to "terrorist" if you change IDF to "terrorist". Rm uk 23:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
If you feel that way then take it up on the IDF page and argue there rationally. If one page is incorrect in your eyes; that doesn't change the fact that another page is incorrect. Can I count on your help here?
BTW what you are claiming is called "State Terrorism" and Israel is in good company with the rest of the nations of the world on that. Be prepared to equally label them as terrorist or state that you're biased. Itzse 20:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
the sad thing is- your right. united states and many other nations engage in terrorism that kills far more people than small time "terrorists" but its these small guys that are always villanised. They are all hypocrites Rm uk 07:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Rm Uk; Now we're talking. State terrorism does exist, and we should talk about it; but when Israel is singled out; out of all the nations of the world as engaging in State terrorism; and when terrorism against Israel is again singled out and downgraded to merely violence under the pretext of NPOV; that is unfair; and I expect better from my fellow Wikipedians. After all, wasn't Israel attacked; and doesn't a country have a right to defend itself? Which other country is put under a microscope as to how much they are allowed to respond? with some measuring it by the amount of casualties and some measuring it by how much suffering Israel has to endure before it is given permission; yes; don't laugh; permission to defend itself. That’s what; my problem is with not labeling Hezbollah a terrorist organization. Some helpful Wikipedians provided some links to other discussions on this topic; thanks to all of them; but I checked out the other Misplaced Pages articles on other terrorist organizations and found a glaring contrast to this article. To be sure there is plenty of debate there too; but in the final analysis the "debated" word "terrorism" is prominently featured in the first paragraph of many of these articles; and the word "terror" is used in those articles numerous times. So again I ask; can't we be equal opportunity Wikipedians; either neutralize & degrade ALL references to terrorists & terrorism in all articles; or call terror by its name equally everywhere? Itzse 16:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Because there are people in this world who support these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because there are people who agree with the goals of these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because this terrorism is directed at Jews; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists murder Jewish men, woman & children; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your countrymen; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your co-religionists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your cousins; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your brothers; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because your country wants to live on good terms with the countries supporting these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because your country wants to live on good terms with the co-religionists of these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because your country doesn't want these terrorists do direct its terrorist activities in your country; does it give them the right to change the fact that it is a terrorist organization?

I have long given up hope on the world; but to my fellow Wikipedians I appeal; can't we honestly call a spade "a spade" and with a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW call terrorists terrorists? The burden of proof should be on the terrorists to prove that they are not terrorists.

If the answer is no; then I would sadly say that there is no purpose for the brains of the world to work their heads off to create an encyclopedia by the biased; with the bias; for the biased. Itzse 20:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

1) Hop off the soapbox.
2) Put new talk sections at the bottom, not the top, please. Tarc 21:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I put my question on the top to be close to its similar discussion Regarding Designation As Terrorist. Had that been in the middle; I would have put it there. My legitimate question was directed to all honest wikipedians, whose mission is honesty & decency; obviously not to you; as your bias comes through clearly; (see Tarc's other changes regarding Israel). You obviously have nothing to say of substance. Itzse 21:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that you clean up your uncivil attitude a bit, and put some time into rereading certain wikipedia policy pages, such as those on assuming good faith and civility. Tarc 23:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll chime in on this. Personally, I feel that H. is a terrorist group. Others do not. I am ok with this. I think it is more important to have the page give an accurate description of what H stands for, what it has done, what its goals are, etc than to label it as "terrorist" or not. I think it is ok to say that certain opinions hold that H. is terrorist, and certain opinions hold that it is not terrorist (and why it is and why it is not in both cases). I don't think that it makes the encyclopedia worse to proceed in this way. What is important here (IMO) is that people of holding all opinions contribute here and people from all backgrounds have an opportunity to read this stuff. Elizmr 22:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Your two pence makes very much sense; but why can't we objectively define what a terrorist is and apply it equally? Why is there a double standard here on wikipedia when it concerns the Jews? Why should Jews be content that the contents of the article merely states also their POV? Shouldn't there be fairness here & call a terrorist a "terrorist"? Don't we want to create an encylopedia of facts not opinions? Itzse 22:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Are there no disagreements on pages about definitions of this sort where Jews are not involved as targets of agression? I actually don't know. Maybe one of the people who feel that Hezbollah is NOT a terrorist group could reply to your point here. Elizmr 23:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
What my personal opinion on it is is largely irrelevant. As is yours. As is Itzse's. The point that I have tried to make, here and on similar pages, is that the Western designation of what is a "terrorist" nation and what is not is not the be all and end all of the matter. There are plenty of peoiple in the Middle East who value Hezbollah for their social services provided in southern Lebanon, for example. I certainly believe that there should be a sizable section of the article devoted to Hezbollah's gross human rights violations and which Western nations list them as a terrorist organization. But including such a label in the introductory paragraph is, I feel, rather heavy-handed and a bit biased, as it is not a universally-held position in the world. Tarc 23:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Tarc, do you have a problem with the way the intro reads now? Providing social services and doing terrorist acts are not mutually exclusive, are they? Terrorism refers to a technique of forcing societal change by performing violent acts. An organization can do this and feed their people at the same time. Elizmr 01:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a controversial issue. So please look at previous discussions about it.
category:Islamic terrorist organizations
terrorism
Category "Designated terrorist organization"
"Many consider it to be a terrorist organisation"
use of the word "terrorist"
Terrorist allegations
Recent Edits By Banzai et al Regarding Designation As Terrorist
These are some of the debates which are directly related to this issue and there many other debates about this issue. As I remember we conclude to write which countries have called them terrorist organization and which one have called them legitimate resistance organization.--Sa.vakilian 01:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The way the intro is at this point in time is fine, in my opinion. Although "extensive front programs" seems to imply that such programs are not sincere. Tarc 02:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose make archive on the basis of topic like this if we don't wat to repeat previous debates everyday. So I do a little work on POV and Disputed discussions but it is certainly insufficient. So please help with this task.--Sa.vakilian 11:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I also recommend this page about the use of the word "terrorism" and Misplaced Pages standards. --Filius Rosadis 21:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Rm uk 23:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC) says: Terrorist should be changed to "terrorist" because it is a very subjective term- no official definition exists. Plus everyone that is against the government these days is a "terrorist". I dont believe in sound bites. You state the facts and you let people think for themselves... you dont tell them an organisation is "terrorist" you give them the facts and let them decide.

Can we use Misplaced Pages's definition on terrorism as a standart here?
If so, Hezbollah IS a terrorist organization. --Dmichelsohn 18:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dont bring jews into this. this is not about religion, because what you wrote...you could have put muslim in every single slot that you wrote and it would have made sense. watch... After all, wasn't LEBANON attacked( think back further than just the beginning of the latest conflict, and when Israel attacked lebanon); and doesn't a country have a right to defend itself? Which other country is put under a microscope as to how much they are allowed to respond? with some measuring it by the amount of casualties and some measuring it by how much suffering LEBANON has to endure before it is given permission; yes; don't laugh; permission to defend itself. That’s what; my problem is with not labeling ISRAEL a terrorist STATE. Some helpful Wikipedians provided some links to other discussions on this topic; thanks to all of them; but I checked out the other Misplaced Pages articles on other terrorist organizations and found a glaring contrast to this article. To be sure there is plenty of debate there too; but in the final analysis the "debated" word "terrorism" is prominently featured in the first paragraph of many of these articles; and the word "terror" is used in those articles numerous times. So again I ask; can't we be equal opportunity Wikipedians; either neutralize & degrade ALL references to terrorists & terrorism in all articles; or call terror by its name equally everywhere?

Because there are people in this world who support these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because there are people who agree with the goals of these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because this terrorism is directed at MUSLIMS; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists murder MUSLIM men, woman & CHILDREN ESPECIALLY; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your countrymen; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your co-religionists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your cousins; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because these terrorists are your brothers; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because your country wants to live on good terms with the countries supporting these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because your country wants to live on good terms with the co-religionists of these terrorists; does it change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? Because your country doesn't want these terrorists do direct its terrorist activities in your country; does it give them the right to change the fact that it is a terrorist organization? have long given up hope on the world; but to my fellow Wikipedians I appeal; can't we honestly call a spade "a spade" and with a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW call terrorists terrorists? The burden of proof should be on the terrorists to prove that they are not terrorists. (see, it works both ways...i just think it should all stop. i disagree with the killing of any civilians, both sides. you make it sound like israel is not purposely killing civilians, because they are. the lies that civilians are dying because hezbollah is using them as a human sheild, use your brains, please. Israel has some of the best military technology in the world (supplied by the US) and they know exactly what they are hitting, with their precision bombs, while, as everyone knows, hezbollah does not. I will add that hezbollah knows they are going to kill civilians as well, and that is the only thing i dont appreciate them for. I believe, however, that hezbollah is justified in attacking israels military and kidnapping soldiers, while israel attacks civilians and kidnaps them, believe it or not, that is the truth. Israel has thousands of lebanese and palestinians. if they are released, and israel stops terrorrizing the palestinians and gives them their own with east jerusalem as their capital, this will all end. Mac33c 21:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


Again; if Israel's acts are considered terrorism as you consider it; or defense as I consider it; that should be discussed on the Israeli pages; not here. Here the only the only thing that should be discussed is THIS article which is "Hezbollah" (two wrongs never make a right; except maybe in mathematics). For arguments sake; lets say that you are right that Israel targets civilians; and is as bad as you think; then why should it change the fact that Hezbollah's sole purpose of existing is to terrorize Israel; and even if you disagree with that; then why should it change the fact that the only purpose of sending four thousand rockets & missiles; which cannot destroy Israel; is to DELIBERATELY kill & TERRORIZE as many civilians; yes civilians, Jewish men, women & children as possible. In my opinion there can never be justification of killing DELIBERATELY civilian; men women & children; and ANYONE doing so is by ALL definitions a terrorist.
How many definitions out of the concocted "hundred" does Hezbollah have to meet; to be considered a TERRORIST organization; so that we should finally call it what it is? Does anyone know? Itzse 15:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If defense is determined by killing civilians than you are right. as you said, we are not here to discuss israel, so i we will speak of hezbollah. while i do not deny that hezbollah attacked civilians (which i strongly disagree with) Hezbollah can be better described as a resistance. Hezbollah, my friends, sole purpose is not to terrorrize israel. Dont you think, that if that was true, hezbollah would have captured civilians and not soldiers? Hezbollah, as a colleague said before, wanted a peaceful exchange (yes, admittingly it was done so with with guns but israel wont just out of the blue agree to give back the lebanese and palestinians whom they have prisoners, many civilians). And also, if i recall, (of course you wouldnt hear about this) Nasrallah said before any of this ever happend, that if israel brought civilians into this, hezbollah would as well. So yes, hezbollah was aiming for civilians as well as military, but in the end, just look at the numbers. i seriously want you to look at them. the numbers of dead on both sides. More israeli military died than civilians, and not even fox news will deny that. and please, once again...dont bring up religion. you said hezbollah terrorrized Jewish men...ok, ill play that game. If anyone noticed, only muslims were the only people that got hit. Lebanon has a large christian population, and not many of them were killed. Dont give me any crap on "hezbollah is using the lebanese as human shields" no they're not. beirut was hit brutally, and hezbollah is completely in the south. israel has precision bombs (courtesy of the US) and know exactly who and what they are killing. "we didnt know" cannot be used as an excuse. Civilian deaths on both sides are inexcusable. Mac33c 21:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Mac33c; if you have a problem with Israel; that's your problem; and the proper place to take it on is on the Israeli pages. Also if what Israel is doing is called defense or not; and if it has a "right" to defend itself; that go argue on the defense article; here we are discussing Hezbollah which to me is a terrorist organization; but I want to know why to you and other Wikipedians it is not? Why does any other terrorist organization get labeled "terrorist" but an organization that attacks Israeli men, women & children is not? That most of the missiles haven't reached their mark doesn't change the fact for what purpose it was launched. So you have a convenient answer which is that Hezbollah is a resistance organization and with a straight face you say that Hezbollah's sole purpose is not to terrorize Israel. Then tell us what is; its sole purpose? Also tell us what are they resisting?
Also tell us what need Hezbollah needs do to, to be labelled a terrorist organization? I challenge you to spell it out. Itzse 23:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

well its hard to switch over to the israel forums when the conversation is here, so i will continue. i would be happy to identify hezbollah as a terrorrist organization if you label the IDF terrorrist as well. you want me to spell it out? to me, if hezbollah were to be labeled terrorrist, they would have to kill more israeli civilians then israel has. dont talk to me about killing men, women, and especially children, when they are no better. once again, you say ISRAELI men women and children, while i acknowledge the deaths of them and their deliberate killings, you fail to acknowledge the death of the Lebanese men women and children as being deliberate whatsoever. you have an excuse for everything, but youll run out sooner than i will. Mac33c 21:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Mac33c; Israel is not the discussion here; as much as you want it to be; but Hezbollah is. After all this is the "talk page" of Hezbollah; not Israel; and regardless what Israel is, or is not; it has absolutely no bearing if Hezbollah should be called a terrorist organization. I think this is elementary.
So your definition of terrorist is, that Hezbollah would "have to kill more Israeli civilians then Israel has", and then Mac33c will consider Hezbollah "terrorist".
So again I appeal to my fair minded Wikipedians; do you consider Mac33c's definition correct; that it's the amount of dead bodies that defines "terrorism"; or you disagree; and are ready with a neutral point of view to call Hezbollah with the label "terrorist".
If any of my fellow Wikipedians thinks honestly that Hezbollah doesn't meet the definition "terrorist" then pray tell me why. If any of you do think that Misplaced Pages can with a neutral point of view call Hezbollah "terrorists" then please don't be afraid to speak up either. Are there any honest Wikipedians left here? Itzse 16:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC

ahhh how typical of you to say something like "this is about hezbollah not israel" when you clearly have nothing else to say. stop bashing hezbollah. ive accepted the fact that hezbollah has purposely attacked civilians, so once again, you continue to deny that israel has. hezbollah is a resistance, i completely disagree with their killing of civilians, however its hard to sit back and allow these things to happen when your enemy is killing your civilians. ask america. so ill bring this up, it is impossible to argue that hezbollah is a terrorrist organization, becuase you must look at the reasoning behind their attacks. you make it seem like more israeli civilians died than men in the military. you cant argue about these things. you have no right to when the country your defending is committing even worse attrocities. your logic on this topic is terribly flawed. stop looking at this from one point of view, because i have looked at it from both. you make it seem as if im the only person in the world who feels this way, while most countries would agree with me. look at the countries who dont...Israel, America, Canada,england and austria. of course they are going to back whatever america feels. so there you go. thats a better reason why this article should name hezbollah as a terrorrist organization, because most countries dont. i If israel didnt kill civilians purposely, and hezbollah did, then i gaurantee you all the other countries (most of them) would see hezbollah as terrorrists, and so would i. it is impossible to carry this on without bringing up israel. not bringing them up at all, of course, would work to YOUR advantage, which is all you realy care about. Mac33c 21:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


  Ok, now say that again, with evidence.

Since when does Israel deliberately target civilian populations?

Answer: They don't. They make plenty of mistakes, and they have a difficult job of fighting groups that do their best to be indistinguishable from the civilian populace, but they don't intentionally attack civilians. Just because your opinions on the matter are so indefensible, it's not justification to try to muddy the waters and claim a draw. Template:BOMBkangaroo

Mac33c; I have a lot to say, but I don't want to say it. I won't be pulled into a debate about something that is irrelevant to this page. Let me make it clear again if you haven't heard the first time; it makes absolutely no difference how bad Israel is or is not. Even is Israel is the biggest monster; it still doesn’t give Hezbollah the right to "target" civilians; and if they do; then they are considered terrorists, period. If you want to argue about justification; that is a different subject; and its place is not here. Even if hezbollah's goal is justified; it still is not justified in killing deliberately civilians; and again if they do target civilians; then they are terrorists. You obviously want to debate Israel or justification; I will not play your game.
My fellow Wikipedians; it is to you who I'm talking to. Mac33c says that; not bringing up Israel will work to my advantage; and he is damn right. Because justification of a cause doesn't make its actions legitimate. If a justified organization kills deliberately civilians it is, a terrorist organization. Even Mac33c has numerous times admitted and acknowledged that hezbollah kills deliberately Israeli, men women and children; and he is an open supporter if not a member of hezbollah; so what do us, still need to call it a "terrorist" organization? My opinion of Israel and his opinion of hezbollah are irrelevant; and so is everybody else's opinion of hezbollah and Israel irrelevant; what counts is; if its actions are terrorism or not. Itzse 21:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

stop twisting around what i said. hezbollah has not right to kill civilians AND neither does israel. you make it seem as if israel is innocent. (whine all you want about me talking about israel on this page this page has EVERYTHING to do with israel.) i completely disagree with hezbollah's killing of civilians and nothing can realy justify that. what im trying to get to, is why you think everything israel does is justifiable, because that is the point you are making. ill take this argument to the israeli forums like you have so kindly been asking me to but first, ill say this again as if you havent heard this for the first time, mark IDF as terrorrist, and i will do the same with hezbollah. it is COMPLETELY hippocritical to call hezbollah terrorrist and the IDF not. actually the IDF were the first to kill civilians. COME ONE GUYS HAVE SOME MORAL IN THIS WORLD Mac33c 01:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Mac33c; You obviously have no clue what Misplaced Pages is about. This page is Hezbollah's page (pun intended); not Israel's; so the content of this page should be about Hezbollah. If Israel is innocent; is absolutely not relevant here. If you want to know why I think that Israel is or is not justified; then here is not the place; but you can call me at (1234567890) extension 5. What Israel is; is NOT the point I'm making; I'm making the exact opposite point that it is Hezbollah who is being determined here; and only Hezbollah. Do you understand simple logic? In your head you cannot differentiate between two different things; one is Hezbollah's goals and the other is Hezbollah's methods. To you if its goals are moral then its means are too; but to us in the civilized world; killing civilians DELIBERATELY is never justified; therefore regardless what your feelings are; Hezbollah should be called with the label "terrorist"; because if not; then this article has taken a point of view Itzse 16:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Finaly! i was realy hoping i would draw some ingnorant person into saying something like that. i cannot tolerate this arrogance any longer. there are more things that determine israel has attacked civilians than hezbollah has attacked them, you just shield yourself from these things, because im sure you listen to everything fox news says right? israel could never do anything wrong, because israel is on the good side! they fight with america! right? wrong. look the numbers! when you send leaflets down to people, telling them to get out or they will be killed, when you just bombed all the roads out, and when people are trying to get out you bomb them, THAT IS TERRORRISM. so itsze you are right WE SHOULD TAKE THIS ARGUMENT TO THE ISRAELI FORUMS. i will destroy anything you tell me. go ahead. Mac33c 21:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

hezbollah does not "blend in" with the population. israel is always bragging about how good their military is and they know exactly what they are hitting.they have the best state-of-art weapons which are precise and are given to israel by america. israel knows what they are hitting. these deaths are no accident. lets say it is true that hezbollah is firing rockets near civilian homes (not entirely true).then why destroy homes in beirut? they cant even reach israel from there. you can argue that hezbollah fighters were thought to be there but you dont kill hundreds of civilians for one man when you have thousands of innocent prisoners.Dan189 21:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to take notice, that Dan189 added the words "and try" to Mac33c's comment; then Dan189 changed all his unsigned edits to signed; then Mac33c changed all his unsigned edits to signed. It is clear that it is one and the same person who is using sockpuppetry. Does anyone know how to proceed on this?

wtf are you talking about????????lol i dont even know dan. dont jump to conclusions Mac33c 01:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure you don't know him; because he doesn't exist. On 21:15 11 minutes after Mac33c threatened that he "will destroy anything you tell me. go ahead and try", Dan189 removed the words "and try". It’s unacceptable in Misplaced Pages to change someone else's words; so by Dan189 agreeing with Mac33c there is no reason why he would change Mac33c's words; unless he forgot which identity he's using; or doesn't know enough to watch himself. 1 minute later on 21:16, Mac33c decides that he's not getting away with staying anonymous; so he signs his unsigned comments. 2 minutes later on 21:18; Dan189 surprisingly decides to do the same and signs all his unsigned comments. Not jumping but coming to conclusion after Mac33c/Dan189 was caught red handed. Itzse 17:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The issue here is; is Hezbollah a terrorist organization, yes or no? If you think it is "yes but" so then let's write that "Hezbollah is a terrorist organization ... It was created on ... but Mac33c/Dan189 and others consider its goals justified, because ..."; wouldn't that be fair and neutral? The way it is written now is absolutely not neutral. If you agree with Mac33c/Dan189 then say so, and if you agree with me then please say so too. Mac33c/Dan189 wants to talk about Israel but Israel is not the issue; sorry.
Now that Mac33c/Dan189 is off to the Israeli pages, and I hope some others with his mindset join him there. We, objective Wikipedians can have a civilized debate here. This opportunity doesn't come every day. Itzse 22:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

israel is the issue here. you cant talk about hezbollah with out israel. Mac33c 01:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

you guys arent even replying to anything i write! your just telling me im in the wrong place, and continue to attack me personally just like pro-israeli politics do today! Mac33c 01:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

im AGREE with itzse. hezbollah fired out few thousands rockets to the houses of israel.. and second

"when Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared the group's manifesto, which included three goals: the eradication of Western imperialism in Lebanon, the transformation of Lebanon's multi-confessional state into a Islamic state, and the complete destruction of the state of Israel."

the third goal stated that hezbollah will completely terrorize israel meaning the rockets shot by hezbollah arent for resistance. mac33c, we're talking about whether hezbollah is a terrorist here since its hezbollah talk page. its just YES or NO and state reasons for it.. not endless looping query of "if you label IDF as terrorist, ,then i 'll label hezbollah as terrorist" JoTp 15:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

you cant bring justice to one thing and not the other that are so closely related. lets say a black child and a white child fight, they are both mad at each other, no one struck "first" then a teacher comes, tackles the black kid, hits him, then takes him to the principles office leaving the white boy free to go. Mac33c 14:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

the fact is, that if you only make one of them terrorrist, it is POV bigtime. im not asking to make IDF terrorrist and not hezbollah if you noticed. Calling hezbollah terrorrist is POV which is why it should not be in the article. happy? i made my point in a more reasonable manner according to you. Mac33c 15:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

also, i just read over our entire little conversation here once more...i noticed several things. Itsze continued to repeat himself that i believe hezbollah is justified in killing innocent civilians. i never said that, when actually on the contrary i denounced that. Hezbollah should not be called a terrorrist organization for, as i stated before, it is POV to do so. this discussion shouldnt even had gotten so long. it should have ended as soon as it started. The fact is and remains so, that only a few countries regard them as a terrorrist organization, and the rest do not. Another thing i noticed is that Itsze, not only to me but to others, realising that he cannot fight back in a reasonable manner, continues to bash the people he is arguing with, accusing them of things that they did not do (the dan89 issue, i am a new member and i didnt realy know how to use wikipedia, i have never met Dan89 in my life and its definitely not me (there must be something you can use to check the IP address) and the reason i changed my comments to signed is that i just found out how to sign them so i thought it would be ok to go back and sign themm and obviously that was the wrong thing to do) and saying that their points are completely POV, when actually he is the one with a HUGE POV, and he said it himself in an indirect way many times in other comments that he wrote. Mac33c 21:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Consensus building:

I propose moving this part to archive. --Sa.vakilian 14:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


The label "Terrorist" is so arbitrary and there are so many different definitions. The US calls Hizbullah a terrorist organization, the UN does not.

Also, anyone that knows just a little Arabic will say the "Hezbollah" is a horrible transliteration for the Arabic. Hizbullah or Hizballah should be used instead. The "Hezbollah" name follows Farsi pronunciation rules more than it does Arabic, and since it is an Arabic word, it would be wise to change it.

mac33c, you actually said "to me, if hezbollah were to be labeled terrorrist, they would have to kill more israeli civilians then israel has." (although, if you look closely at what you said, then you can, by all means, label hezbollah a terrorist organization. israel has killed far fewer israeli civilians than hezb has). that is the most lunatic, out-of-your-mind argument i've ever heard. basically, what you're saying is, if one man kills 10 people from someone's family, and a surviving family member kills 20 of the first man's family, then the first man isn't a killer, because he killed less than the 2nd. the crucial point here is not what hezbollah's stated goals are, or the reasons behind their actions. it is their actions. they kill civilians deliberately for political reasons. that is about as basic a definition of terrorism that you can get. i really, truly, can't see how you can make arguments like that.
as for the anon comment above mine about naming conventions, hezbollah is far more common spelling. they're all romanized versions of the arabic, just like mohammed, muhammed, mohamad, etc. you might even make the point that since iran funds hezbolalh, and it's an offshoot of the iranian revolution, that we should use the farsi pronunciation ;) Parsecboy 23:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The defense and attack of this argument are both horribly based. I have yet to see one citation. How is one going to say that Israel killed more/less civilians than Hezbollah without proof?

Regarding the "terrorist" label, like I've read many pro-Israeli/anti-Hezbollah editors say, Misplaced Pages is an objective source. When was the last time you picked up a published encyclopedia and saw a group or nation being called terrorist? The label "terrorist" is left for the reader to DECIDE based on the FACTS presented. Stop being idiots. This is why I don't get a Wiki account. Silly, pointless arguments about NOTHING.

If you want to know my position...too bad. That I keep to myself because I KNOW that immature "debators" of the opposing view are going to use this to their advantage and claim me to be stupid. I'm staying neutral.24.4.221.251 03:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

cite from swedish scientist

Hi. What do people think about this cite from a Swedish grad student? The newspaper is sort of an independent small paper, not one of record. The article is not in English, but he reportedly did not give any evidence to back up the claim he makes: "According to Mats Wärn, former UN soldier and Hezbollah expert, Hezbollah has since the early 1990s not wanted to attack civilian targets in Israel except as retaliation against Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians." I don't think the cite is strong enough to be in the intro or actually in the article at all. ONe could say he is a grad student studying Hezbollah, but "expert" seems a bit of a misleading way to represent him. Elizmr 19:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Mats Wärn is a doctoral candidate and instructor in the Department of Political Science at Stockholm University, Sweden and a quick googling shows that he indeed is a respected expert in the field of political Islam. . Anyway "Hezbollah expert" may be replaced with "political scientist in the field of political Islam". // Liftarn
This weak cite should not be in the article at all in my opinion since he doesn't back up his claim with anything and the newspaper is a minor one. Sa.va deleted something from the LA Times the other day as a poor weak source. But in terms of how he should be identified, anything more than "doctoral candidate" would be overstating his expertise. Elizmr 22:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see what's wrong with stating what field he works in. // Liftarn 08:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Elizmr, the cite shouldn't be in the article at all, even mentioning him would be misleading to the readers. Googling is not an adequate gauge of someone's importance, if they were I would cite my dad and grandpa on every article I was able to.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the google test isn't the best (but probably the easiest) way to tell if a person is notable or not. However the facts stated are from a reliable source so the facts should stay. // Liftarn

The issue isn't what field he's in; the issue is that he's still a trainee in that field, a doctoral candidate (this means he doesn't yet have his PhD), and therefore he is a political scientist in training rather than a political scientist. Most grad students teach discussion sectoins of large cources at the institution where they are studying and are listed as "lecturers". This is not the same as having a permanent faculty appointment. As far as the content of what he's saying---I consider it pretty difficult to support given that Hezbollah bombed a Jewish center in Argentina and killed a bunch of civilians after 1991. That's why I asked if he said anything to back up his claim in the article you are citing. I think this, at the very least, needs to be moved into another section of the article, and needs to be qualified with the context of Hezbollah's acts--not just a grand student's view of their intentions. Elizmr 15:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Even if he is indeed a political scientist he continues to study for a higher education. What's wrong with that? Would it be better if he had stopped studies? As you can see Wärn has been published by Routledge that according to Misplaced Pages is "one of the most important European imprints for social sciences". You are right that we probably need a more detailed source and preferaby in English too. I'll see if I can find something. At least some of his papers are available online so there's probably somthing there. // Liftarn

Regarding the Argentinian bombing Hezbollah denies involvement. ("is a press atmosphere released by the Israelis so that Hizballah would be held responsible for any reaction by anyone in the world against Israeli or Jewish interests or the like, such as what happened in Argentina... have said that our revenge for the civilians will be on the Israeli military". al-Maokif, nr. 2 1996.) // Liftarn

There is nothing wrong with being a grad student, it just doesn't make anyone an expert. Hezbollah has not claimed responsibility for any of the suicide bombings they are believed to be responsible for. Let's take the whole thing out, ok? It just isn't well supported by evidence. Elizmr 10:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that he is an expert and we have a reliable source so per Misplaced Pages rules it can be included. // Liftarn

On what basis do you find a grad student an "expert"? I don't want to be rude, but a graduate student is just not considered an expert. And a grad student being interviewed in an alternative newspaper and giving opinions without any supporting evdience is not a good cite for Misplaced Pages by any criteria. Does anyone else editing on this page think that a graduate student is an expert? Elizmr 16:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

its not that hes an expert, but he is more educated on the subject than you, and he it is a reliable source so it should stay. Mac33c 15:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey mac, please watch your personal attacks. WP:DICK. "more of an expert than you" is not a criteria for a quotable source on a wiki page. Elizmr 15:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

He has written several academic papers on the subject and is a political scientist. That he continues to study should not automaticly disqualify him as a source. Especially since we gladly accept a newspaper article where the only qualifications may be that the journalist can read and write. // Liftarn

Yeah, you posted a few of his abstracts, but he is still a grad student and not an expert. And it is STILL not a good cite because he doesn't give any evidence for the claim he is making in the article, which isn't even in English, and is not in a newspaper of record. I think a cite from one of his published papers, on the other hand, would be fine. Aside from Mac, who makes the comment that this guy knows more than I do about the subject, no one else editing the page has weighed in on this. With all due respect, and I do respect you, I think the cite is weak and you should drop it. If this is a valid viewpoint, I'm sure you could find a better cite to support it. OK? If you put it back in the article I am taking it out. Elizmr 11:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll guess I'll have to read trough his papers. I'm sure there are some very interesting stuff there. // Liftarn
Sounds like a plan. THanks!. Elizmr 14:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)






semiprotecting

due to vandalism from anon ip addressesElizmr 17:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, please discuss on talk before unprotecting. Elizmr 18:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

But does it work? This page has been on semiprotection for a long time and yet anons can still edit the page. Count Iblis 18:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I dunno if you are an admin Elizmr but protection and semi-protection is done by admins. Tagging the article is not sufficient and the protect button should be used. The article was unprotected since sept.12 and that's why new unregistered users could edit. -- Szvest 19:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

No, I am not an admin. I didn't know that tagging wasn't enough. I think we should semiprotect since we've had a lot of vandalism over the last few days. How do we get an admin to semiprotect for us? Elizmr 19:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection for both protection, semi-protection and unprotection requests. There's no need for a request now. I had already semi-protected it a while ago.-- Szvest 19:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I will save that link to use in future (altho hoping it will not be necessary). Elizmr 19:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Netherland position

Somebody has removed Netherland from List of entities officially designating Hezbollah as "terrorist". I think we should debate about it.--Sa.vakilian 05:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability of quotation

There is a quotation in Hezbollah#Position on Jews and Judaism which is based on newspaper's interpretation. It is dubious. I've searched a lot but I can't find the complete version of this sermon anywhere. Aparantly Daily Star is the Primary source. It wrote

"Hizbullah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said Tuesday that Arabs were not "red Indians" and will not be liquidated or driven into exile by Israel and the United States.
Speaking at a graduation ceremony in Haret Hreik, Nasrallah said that "Christian Zionists" were gaining strength and had a powerful impact on US foreign policy.
Nasrallah alleged that oil companies and weapons firms that have financed the "Christian Zionists," the Arabic term for the right-wing Christian supporters of Israel, were in alliance in the United States.
"Their aim is to redraw the world's political map," he said. "It is said that several US presidents are affiliated with the Christian Zionists."
Nasrallah said their aim was to return the Jews to Israel and rebuild their temple, destroyed by the Romans in 70AD, over the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
However, Nasrallah added, "if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.""


To whom does refer "they" Zionists or Jews? If you look at 10th line, You can see the first "their" doesn't refer to jews but the Christian Zionists . The next "their" refers to jews. Now to whom does refer the last "they" Jews or Zionists.

specially there is written in WP:V :"Biographies of living people need special care because biographies containing unsourced material might negatively affect someone's life and could have legal consequences. Remove unsourced material about living persons immediately if it could be viewed as criticism"--Sa.vakilian 05:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What is your point? This is not a BLP, this is an article about an organizaton. Elizmr 22:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I know. But this article accuses Nasrallah too. I don't want to defend him. But you'd better find a reason which proves his antiJweish or antiSemitic attitude. --Sa.vakilian 03:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't read the article without paying. It doesn't accuse N, it quotes him. There is a big difference. Elizmr 14:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this is the most complete version we can find on the web:--Sa.vakilian 17:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really arguing with you, but I"m confused. The cite is from the NY Times. That is a newspaper of record, and the bias is typically against Israel (although in a subtle way). It seems strange that they would take a quote from that world net daily site. Do you have a copy of the Times article? I've read a lot of places that he said this, he is kind of famous for saying this. Has he said that he didn't say it? Elizmr 23:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I find this very confusing. I can't find this material in our article (has soneone just removed it?) and I can't work out who is saying where it comes from! It seems to relate to the Daily Star article quoted. While the Daily Star is a better and less biased source than the New York Times, we don't seem to be entirely clear as to where the material comes from or what the original article says.
I think the material from Saad-Ghorayeb's book covers this better, although it would be better to go directly to the source rather than have it filtered via the New Yorker. I might even get around to this myself at some point, though the current form is a reasonable summary of Saad-Ghorayeb's argument.
Also, if memory serves we used have a citation stating that the EU had had al-Manar banned. Now it appears to be just France. Are we sure about this? Palmiro | Talk 00:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't have Saad-Ghorayeb's book, so it would be great if you did that. France banned al-Manar for inciting hate, and some other EU countries have banned on technicalities. The EU has not banned. Elizmr 00:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Al Qaeda

i think this should be completely removed or just said flat out that there is no evidence of the two connecting, because there isnt and anyone who "has a reason to believe so" is just stating that to create a POV that hezbollah is a terrorrist organization. if you disagree, show me some NPOV citations. Mac33c 22:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Will these do? --GHcool 22:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

ya they look like ok websites. good enough to leave in Al qaeda into the article. Still all the evidence in those articles could have easily be lied about, but i guess that it is still worthy to be added inside the article. thanks GHcool. Mac33c 00:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Not really. One newspaper article based entirely on unnamed sources, one article on a partisan website, and one article by an assistant editor on the Council on Foreign Relations website doesn't cut it for me. To keep this level of coverage in the article, I'd like to see some support for the thesis from a reasonably authoritative source, such as a genuinely expert journalist or better still, a well-regarded academic. The sources given in the article are by and large fairly poor as well, though not all of them. As far as I know, all the knowledgable academic commentators dismiss the idea of any Hezbollah-al-Qaida connection. Unless we come up with something better, the material in the article should be pruned to a more proportionate size, and certainly it needs to be rebalanced, and not to start with the clainms of cooperation but with the generally accepted position that the two organizations have little or nothing to do with each other. As it stands it's quite biased at least by virtue of how it's structured. Palmiro | Talk 00:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The Washington Post article quotes key people from the CIA, FBI, U.S. Congress, and "a former National Security Council terrorism expert" on the issue. How many more "experts" do you need on the issue? As for the Council on Foreign Relations article, you're not really attacking the research as much as you are attacking the researcher. This is called ad hominem and is a logical fallacy. I don't think its POV to state the truth: that there is evidence that lead many experts to believe that there is a connection between Hezbollah and al-Qaeda. --GHcool 05:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
It is extremely POV to assume that the US Congress can make unbiased statements about the situation in the Mid East. The US is directly or indirectly party in most Mid East conflicts and they have a track record of getting basic facts wrong. Count Iblis 23:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
If I understand you correctly, you are accusing the entire U.S. Congress (but specifically the National Security Council) of being an unreliable source of information on Middle Eastern politics. Fortunately however, most reasonable people would agree that in the 59 years of the National Security Council and the 230 years of the US Congress, the two put together have maintained a pretty stable history of being a reliable source. --GHcool 00:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
You say ->> "If I understand you correctly, you are accusing the entire U.S. Congress (but specifically the National Security Council) of being an unreliable source of information on Middle Eastern politics". Given what we were fed about WMD, we need these sources to be proved reliable. The current situation is bound to leave us under-whelmed. PalestineRemembered 17:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

thats what i was shooting for, and i think, that either it should be removed completely, or some could argue that it should at least be mentioned, but not in the manner it is now. it is pretty biased, and i agree that the how the section starts is terrible. Mac33c 01:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

these experts are you speak of are biased themselves. they would look for anything possible to connect the two together because that would put no doubt in peoples minds that hezbollah is biased. This section needs to be rearranged and more balanced and proportional (as stated before). Someone should do it unless someone makes a better point as to why it should stay the way it is and if there is not good argument given and it is still not changed by this time tommorow i will change it myself. Mac33c 21:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can find experts that say that there is no link between Hezbollah and al-Qaeda, feel free to cite them, but please don't delete something just because you haven't done your own research into the matter. --GHcool 22:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Under the circumstances, when Saddam Husssein was supposedly linked to Al-Qaeda (and we now know he wasn't linked atall, he was threatened by it and was trying to track down and kill its operatives), it must be incumbent on the accusors to make their case, and not on the rest of us to to prove a negative. PalestineRemembered 17:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Middle East Quarterly has an editorial stance, for sure, but the articles are well-researched and well written. They should not be dismissed as sources. Elizmr 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Your comment sent me to search for "Middle East Quarterly". I found it here . On their home page the articles today (20061017) were as follows: ISLAMIST IDEOLOGY - Uriya Shavit, Al-Qaeda's Saudi Origins - Saudi conspiracy theorists laid the ground for Osama bin Laden - Denis MacEoin, Why Do Muslims Execute Innocent People? - Shari'a law can be more flexible than the Islamists who apply it - David Bukay, The Religious Foundations of Suicide Bombings - Suicide bombers find instruction and inspiration in the Qur'an - David Verbeeten, How Important Is the Israel Lobby? - U.S. policymakers learned that Israel was a better friend than its neighbors - Harsh V. Pant, Saudi Arabia Woos China and India - Riyadh's approach to the east won't save it from tough choices on internal reform - Bilal A. Wahab, How Iraqi Oil Smuggling Greases Violence - Black gold finances more than Iraq's reconstruction".
Such material is clearly POV and (I'd have supposed) blatantly unsuitable to included in the encyclopedia. Perhaps Wikipedians more experienced than me will state differently. PalestineRemembered 17:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Eyal Zisser, Bashar al-Assad's Gamble The Syrian leader believes he can outlast both internal enemies and Washington

Keep the cites if you have to, but i still want the section to be more balanced and rearranged. ill keep my eye open for any cites stating that there is no connection between the two. Mac33c 23:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Finding sources that refute an idea which is not widely believed is quite difficult. The onus is on the contibuter to prove a point is significant, if sources are unreliable it is the contributer's job to say that they are reliable also. How can you say that a source is well-researched? -- Tompsci 01:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this problem will be solved easily if we write "as U.S. congress or C.I.A. claims". We should'n't write it as an absolute fact.--Sa.vakilian 16:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I hided some statements like "reliable sources" or "other observer". These are not verifiable or clear. Please write specificly. Also I put clean up tag on this part because it should be rearranged.--Sa.vakilian 16:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Although I don't understand why the U.S. Congress or the CIA would not be a reliable source, I accept your proposal as fair and NPOV. Thanks, Sa.vakilian. --GHcool 19:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you spell WMD? PalestineRemembered 17:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Sa.vakilian. Should be stated that way, and it definitely should be rearranged. Mac33c 21:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hiding among civilians

This article The "hiding among civilians" myth - Salon News (requires subscription) may be interesting to quote or refute. --Error 00:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


umm, I do not know much on this subject, but would like to ask if any1 could specify on the subject of the opinion of france in the UN about the sending of troops to lebanon. 217.60.120.11 15:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

As I know it's about Israel-Lebanon conflict. I think it doesn't related to this article directly unless there is written something about "hiding among civilians" as a tactic of Hezbollah.--Sa.vakilian 16:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Too many details in the lead

Writing too many details in the lead is inappropriate so I moved some part of it to intro. This part is about recognition Hezbollah as Legitimate or terrorist organization. I could maintain an abstract about this issue in the lead, but my exprience in this article show if we put one sentence about this issue in the other wikipedian put all of this information there even it would be NPOV. Also we should merge this part with intro because some issues are repeated. Please read the Lead/Introduction archive before answer to me or edit the article.--Sa.vakilian 16:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. According to Misplaced Pages, the lead is supposed to summarize the article. Maybe it should say a word or two about terrorism, but I agree completely that what was there before was too much. I think some things about politics, etc are repeated in the first part of the lead and the last part of the lead and the lead could be edited to remove the second mention. Maybe there are other parts of the article that could get a quick mention in the lead as well to make it a better summary of the whole article. I will try to do this. Elizmr 23:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

Why somebody has put POV tag on this article.--Sa.vakilian 16:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

someone said above that they did it beause of the disporp attention to terrorism in the lead. Elizmr 23:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Intro

I reworked the intro as follows:

  • paragraph one: historial background on origins
  • paragraph two: state the controversy, list violent acts and positions on these acts
  • paragraph three: state the postion: it is jihad and resistance
  • paragraph four: state the position: it is terrorism
  • paragraph five: controversy of maintence of arms after end of civil war and currently

I removed stuff that was well covered elsewhere about politics, ideology etc and just focused the intro on the above. There were a few places where the same info was repeated a few times. I eliminated this redundancy. NOthing was removed completely.

I changed the name of the section to "intro and background" Elizmr 00:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Intro is going to become a new article. I want to edit lead and intro as soon as possible, but I'm too busy these days.--Sa.vakilian 06:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with intro becoming a new article. Please discuss and get consensus before you do this, ok? Happy Ramadan. Elizmr 20:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me. My English is not well. I mean it becomes a new article by too many unnecessary stuff and I want to shorten it by moving some part of it body.--Sa.vakilian 04:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Sorry I misunderstood. What is unnecessary? I agree it should be shortened. Elizmr 14:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Nasrallah Remark on the Jews

Footnote 66 mentions that Nasrallah thought that the ingathering of the Jews to Israel would make it easier to exterminate all of them. Please see the letter "Too Fair to Hizbullah" which disputes the accuracy of the original quote, said to come from a Lebanese newspaper. This quote was mentioned on Norman Finkelstein's website. He, admittedly, is not an objective observer, but the question of Nasrallah's statements deserves further clarification. Can anyone find further sourcing for the statement mentioned in this footnote? http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n19/letters.html

Finkelstein's lack of objectivity isn't relevant. He only linked to an article in the LRB by Charles Glass, an article which quotes the Daily Star's managing editor suggesting that his former reporter had an agenda. Even Charles' Glass's objectivity is only very indirectly relevant. It is the objectivity of the Daily Star editor that matters. In light of which I can quite understand Hecht's questioning whether the Daily Star editor himself has an agenda, but since the questioning (and the archive search of everything the reporter in question wrote) is being done by a Misplaced Pages editor and not an external reliable source, it constitutes original research and has to go. Perhaps a citable source will point out what Hecht pointed out; then we'll be able to include it.--G-Dett 15:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hecht, I am with you in wondering whether the Daily Star's managing editor has an agenda. But as of right now, the reporter's credibility has been challenged in a reliable source, whereas the managing editor's credibility has been challenged only by you.

You say you're not challenging his credibility, only stating the fact that "between August 2002 and November 2003, the newspaper published no fewer than 170 reports by the same journalist." But a fact about a Daily Star reporter's resume has no place in an article about Hezbollah, unless it's making a point about the Daily Star's credibility when it now distances itself from said reporter. Read the text of WP:NOR; you can't use source B to refute source A. And in this case, source B is a search results page created by you.

I'm all for pursuing this rift in the Daily Star, but let's wait for voices in reliable sources to say what they say.--G-Dett 00:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

G-Dett, WP:NOR doesn't say "you can't use source B to refute source A," it excludes original ideas, terms, definitions, unsourced arguments, analyses and syntheses of published material, etc. Stating a fact whose source is a page in the newspaper's own archive doesn't fall under any of these headings.
The page in question was not, in fact, created by me (it is circulating by email); and if you know of any Misplaced Pages policy excluding newspaper archive pages as sources then please refer me to it and I will concede.
Incidentally, it isn't true that "All searches... create URLs for their results list": try searching, e.g., the New Republic Archive.--Hecht 01:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR says "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C."
I have three questions, Hecht. I wonder if you'll answer each.
1. Can you tell me how to get to this "page in the newspaper's own archive"? I say the URL has been created ad hoc by a search; you say not. The title of the page is "Daily Star Simple Search Results," which would seem to support my position. If this page represents something published by the Daily Star, not an ad hoc page generated by a reader's input, can you tell me how to get to it through the newspaper's web portal?
2. If your edit only "stated a simple fact, without commenting on anyone's 'credibility'," then what is the word "but" doing in it?
3. What is this simple fact about the reporter's resume doing in an article about Hezbollah, if not commenting on the credibility of the editor who's distanced himself from said reporter?
It seems your "reliable source" is a circular email you received, which obviously doesn't meet the criteria for a reliable source. I'll carefully consider your responses to all three questions before deciding whether to revert. Thanks.--G-Dett 02:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The rule you're quoting refers to syntheses of different facts/sources to advance an original conclusion. My sentence mentions a single fact in a single source and allows readers to draw whatever conclusions they think appropriate (see below).
1. You get to the page by clicking on the URL in question. I don't know how it was originally created. Again, if there's any Misplaced Pages prohibition on newspaper archive search URLs, then please refer me to it and I'll happily concede.
2. I agree. Your latest edit (minus the words "A search of") strikes me as entirely fair.
3. Readers can draw any of these conclusions:
(i) the editor isn't telling the truth (so the reporter didn't fabricate the quotation);
(ii) the editor is telling the truth (and the reporter's many contributions explain why the fabricated quotation passed unnoticed);
(iii) there's no way of knowing who's telling the truth (on the one hand, the editor is an authoritative source; on the other hand, the reporter was a very frequent contributor).
I promise that I wouldn't dream of citing a circular email in a Misplaced Pages entry! The reliable source is meant to be the newspaper archive URL.--Hecht 05:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, Hecht. I have no problem with the edit as it stands now. I too am curious if results lists generated by a reader's search count as reliable cited sources in Misplaced Pages. Can a page of google search results be cited as a reliable source? It would seem to me that a reader's engagement with an online search engine would be the very definition of original research.
That's one kind of OR, and it's an open question whether the edit still runs afoul of it. I am curious what other editors say.
Your edit in its initial form ("On the other hand, between August 2002 and November 2003, the newspaper published no fewer than 170 reports by this supposedly unreliable journalist") definitely ran afoul of a different kind of OR - that of "seeking to advance a position" by synthesizing material. But the current phrasing fixes that. --G-Dett 13:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup Bannar

Would anyone object if I deleted the cleanup bannar at the beginning of the article? I think we should keep the cleanup bannar in the "al-Qaeda" though. --GHcool 01:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Look religion is the cause of all problems, lets be sensible people. It depend on your religion. Me I am nearly atheist so my opinions are not as bias as some. I think take everyone is wrong we just need to look past religion and at each idea with as little bias as possible. In a nutshell we all belong to the religion of mankind. Killing is wrong no matter which way you twist it. Both sides kill and get killed. If they just took the principle of live and let live they would be doing a lot better. Most religions are very peaceful its the few groups that give them a negative rap — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitapronin (talkcontribs) 02:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but now, let's get back on topic. Cleanup bannar at the beginning of the article: keep or delete? --GHcool 04:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is yeah, let's take down the banner.--G-Dett 13:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
OK with me if the banner goes away. Elizmr 14:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Resistance vs. Jihad edit war

It seems most exact to label this "Jihad". This is an Islamic term and an undeniably Islamic organization. The rest of the sentence was written to lead into the word "Jihad". Could we defend the use of the word "resistance" instead instead of edit warring on the article page? Of course, it sounds more pc to Western ears but it is less exact. Elizmr 14:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

numbers of Hezbollah prisoners in Israeli prisoners edit war

Are there any citable refs on this? Instead of edit warring, why don't we include all estimates with appropriate refs? We can say the true number is unknown, but "source x" says "number y" and "source a" says "number b". Elizmr 14:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There are some different data about how many Lebanese are Israel's jail, but I haven't seen anyone clarifies how many Hezbollah's members are in Israel's jails.--Sa.vakilian 10:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Please post the data you have available. Elizmr 14:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Please look at these sites: and --Sa.vakilian 20:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
These cites would suggest somewhere between 3 and 12 prisoners. Elizmr 22:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
But apparantly most of them aren't Hezbollah's members.--Sa.vakilian 03:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I was just looking at numbers not H vs. non-H. I think the edit war was about the numbers. Someone kept saying that there were thousands or prisioners or something like that. Is the H vs non-H status important? Elizmr 14:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

For purposes of Neutrality...

If we are going to label Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, then fairly we should state Israel as a terrorist government that is being voted on by its people.

Now reasonably this also applies to the Misplaced Pages Israel page that also lists Israel as a terrorist state. like the following:

Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info); Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل‎, Dawlat Isrā'īl), officially the State of Israel, is a terrorist country in Western Asia on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It is the Middle East's only parliamentary democracy and the nation state of the Jewish people, indigenous to Eretz Yisrael (Hebrew: ארץ ישראל) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.56.121.9 (talkcontribs) 01:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

An unsigned, poorly argued condemnation of Israel under the name of NPOV. How surprising. --GHcool 04:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know the only country that has been listed as a terrorist state is the USA. // Liftarn

Funny- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Wnen Israel bombs us with cluster bombs, demand that we leave our homes, kills us when we try to escape by road or shelter in UN bases, then Israel is merely excercising it right to self defence. But if we try to defend ourselves and rid our land of foreign occupation, then we are terrorists. Abu ali 11:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
That's ridiculous. You're not "defending" yourselves by hiding in populated villages and towns, nor are you defending yourselves by advocating suicide bombings, nor are you defending yourselves by using human shields, nor are you defending yourselves by systematically murdering Israeli civilians. If you look closely at the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, all wars were started by the Arab nations, and all further action was retaliation by Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.77.160 (talkcontribs) 21:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you serious??? Are you really contending that Israel is a terrorist state? Hezbollah was created simply for the purpose of wiping Israel off the map, so yes, in their eyes Israel is a terrorist state. That doesn't make it a neutral point of view. Hezbollah is not a sovereign nation, Israel is. Therefore, Hezbollah's actions(Samir Kuntar, etc.) are in clear violation of the sovereignty of a nation and its people. Israel's response cannot be called terrorism since it has always been in response to suicide bombings, or rocket attacks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.77.160 (talkcontribs) 03:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Whenever someone introduces the X is a Terrorist i gently revert w/ an edit summary directing to Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Terrorist.2C terrorism. Make sure to read there about what is Encyclopedic and what is Not encyclopedic.
Now, and after reading that, everything left is irrelevant. Why?
According to Misplaced Pages:Talk pages, Wikipedians generally oppose the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, talk about the article, not about the subject. It's only the habits we encourage that keep Misplaced Pages from turning into a slanging match.
The purpose of a talk page is to help to improve the contents of the article in question. Questions, challenges, excised text (due to truly egregious confusion or bias, for example), arguments relevant to changing the text, and commentary on the main page are all fair play.
Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with folks on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles (i.e.Discussion forums). There are a number of early-stage projects that attempt to use a wiki for discussion and debate. Cheers -- Szvest 21:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

Salute given by recruits.

Um how could that be described as anything other than a Nazi salute that they are giving. It is of the clear form - right arm straight and raised high. And it fits anyway, given their pathological hatred of Israeli Jews. How can you possibly deny this. Why are my edits being reverted? -- 130.216.191.184 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.191.184 (talkcontribs) 22:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You have been blocked for the 3 revert rule. Please note that editting personal opinions is considered original research in wikipedia. If would be insane to say that the below pictures are of Bush making a Nazi salute:

Yeah, that's what it looks like, but agree with the above, can't say that on the page without a cite. Elizmr 22:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Last revert by Count Iblis

The last revert by Count Iblis is a good example of maintaining a NPOV. The section is relevant and encyclopaedic. Which is not encyclopeadic is to say that Hizbollah is a terrorist org at the lead. See wikipedia link above re this matter. -- Szvest 01:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I reverted the intro just now again, because it was just too biased. In the intro you cannot elaborate on things and mentioning things like tat Hezbollah's goal is the total annihillation of Israel without further discusson is just propaganda. Also the use of citations to propaganda sources like IranFocus (Iran is central banker of terror) is questionable. Count Iblis 12:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Although it may be unpalatable, that is the stated goal of Hezbollah. One could argue that it is more consistent with propaganda to leave it out than it is to keep it in. I think we need to be very black and white about this. The organization considers Israel and illeg state and to be in occupation of the whole of Palestine. Some think this is justified; some think this is not. THAT's where the discussion is. Elizmr 22:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe Elizmr that Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Terrorist.2C terrorism explains everything. We are only allowed to list who says X is terrorist. A possible discussion would be relevant in a discussion forum but not in Misplaced Pages where everything is documented under policies and guidelines. My comment is related to my first comment of this section and not to the rest-- Szvest 22:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I am confused. What does this have to do with terrorism? I am not a proponent of the use of the word here. The revert was about the goal of annihilation of Israel (at least I thought it was, please excuse me if I was mistaken). Elizmr 23:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry for the inconvenience. I already explained that as a small note above. -- Szvest 00:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It has to be explained what is meant by "annihilation of Israel". In the lead section there is no room to do that. If I'm not mistaken Nasrallah has made some comments about this recently. If one just says "annihilation of Israel" then that has very negative associations which Hezbollah (as understand it) does not support. Count Iblis 23:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
No, they consider all of Israel to be on Islamic land and want to get rid of it and are working towards that. I know that has negative connotations to some, but it should be aired. Elizmr 02:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I understand that, but "annihilation of Israel" is ambiguous because it suggests that they want to "annihilate the Jews" as well. Count Iblis 12:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What's with the infobox?

It prints out these garish;

Chairperson {{{chairman}}}
Spokesperson {{{spokesperson}}}

lines in the middle of the box, which I don't see in the article source. I really don't know enough about infoboxes to fix it. Anyone else here that does? Tarc 16:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Briefly, a lot of templates used a class "hiddenstructure", which was recently disabled because (among other reasons) it doesn't work with some browsers and hearing-access software. (IE, some people were hearing what you saw.) Template has been rewritten so these fields are optional without using hiddenstructure. Gimmetrow 02:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Elimination of the state of Israel

Surely the phrase "Elimination of Israel" is propaganda, a case of the Zionists taking advantage of the vagaries of translation? An NPOV version would be "regime change", under which the "right of return" legislation and supposedly apartheid nature of Israel is dismantled.

I'm not denying that many residents of Israel might feel very threatened by the overthrow of their existing government, and large numbers might go back to America. However, it's wrong of us to speak of "elimination of Israel" when a change of regime would probably see Israel grow. Likely expand to include Gaza and the West Bank. PalestineRemembered 17:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind the term "regime change" as long as we keep in mind what that entails: replacing a secular/Jewish state with an Islamic one. As far as "the Zionists taking advantage of the vagaries of translation" is concerned, I direct you to Nasrallah statement that "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel." and from the Associated Press, a moment from the same speech, "Nasrallah said as supporters interrupted his speech with chants of 'God is Greatest' and 'Death to Israel.'" And of course, there are much more ... Did nearly every independent source get the translations wrong? --GHcool 18:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It is not propaganda, it is an aim of the organization. They want to see the whole of Israel proper, which they consider occupied, under Islamic rule. They are not just asking for right of return. Elizmr 22:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC) And given what GHcool wrote above and a look at the Hezbollah record, it is much more in keeping with propaganda to cover up the fact that Hez wants to elimiate the Jewish state than to say that they want to eliminate the Jewish state. Elizmr 22:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Nasrallah has clearly stated that he wishes for all Zionists to die. Thus, he does not support the sovereignty of Israel. A "regime change" would be a non-military change such as the coup that recently occured in Thailand. What Hezbollah wants to accomplish is NOT a regime change.

I don't think that what Nasrallah means by "Zionist" is the same as what Israelis mean by that word. Compare e.g. Zionist to Jihadist :). The Neo-Cons say that all Jihadists should be killed... Count Iblis 12:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is severely compromised by references to Israeli government web-sites

The article "Hezbollah" references the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs on which can be found statements such as this:

"April 11, 1996 - HIZBULLAH - The Hizbullah is an umbrella organization of various radical Shi'ite groups and organizations which adhere to a Khomeinistic ideology. The organization was established following the 1982 Peace for Galilee War in Lebanon (and an increased Iranian presence and influence in Lebanon). The Hizbullah organization was established as an organizational body for Shi'ite fundamentalists, led by religious clerics, who see in the adoption of Iranian doctrine a solution to the Lebanese political malaise. This included the use of terror as a means of attaining political cognise that fact.

Israeli government web-sites may publish lots of genuine material - but the above is simply self-serving.

Here's what David Ben-Gurion, prominent founder figure and first Israeli Prime Minister said about the importance of seizing Lebanon: American Committee on Jerusalem "it wasn't simply Palestine the Zionists wanted. In 1937, David Ben Gurion said, "The boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." In 1938, he was even more explicit, "The boundaries of Zionist aspiration," he told the World Council of Poale Zion in Tel Aviv, "include southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today's Jordan, all of Cis-Jordan and the Sinai" (Israel Shahak, Journal of Palestine Studies)".

Ten years later in 1948, Ben Gurion was quite blatant about the aspirations of Israel: "We should prepare to go over to the offensive," he told his General Staff. "Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria, and Sinai" (Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: A Biography).

Don't get me wrong - the rocket onslaught on Israel was criminal. but ........

Hezbollah is a much more multi-faceted organisation than Israel is giving it credit for. The encyclopedia should not be a party to linking the welfare, educational and medical work they do in a part of Lebanon cynically turned into a "failed state" with the militant operations sometimes carried out in their name. The above unsigned baloney was written by PalestineRemembered

--- Note: the cite above from the Israeli government is quite accurate if you read up on the history of the organization beyond what might appear on the BBC. The unsigned statement above needs cites to support it. Pre-Israel quotes do not apply to Israeli current policy and to suggest that they do is just propaganda. In addition, don't say that any state has an intention of "ethnically cleansing" without something to back it up. In this case, there's more evidence for Hezbollah having that intention towards Israel than vice versa. Elizmr 20:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

What you claim about the accuracy of the quotes and cites cannot be bolstered in the way you've attempted to do. The web-sites of the Israeli governnment should not be used in this particular article.
Furthermore, the fact that Israel (and it's founding fathers before 1948) intended to seize and ethnically cleanse the Muslim south of Lebanon is historical fact, amply justified just by the clips I've posted here.
And I note you've made no attempt to deal with the point I set out to make, nor with the (cited) material I've posted. I believe the integrity of the encyclopedia is severely compromised by references to Israeli government web-sites, and I see nothing from you that attempts to present an opposing case. PalestineRemembered 20:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Look, I don't want to be rude here, but what are you talking about? Please refer to WP:OR and WP:RS before you discuss the integrity of the encyclopedia. Elizmr 21:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I accept the challenge. It wasn't too difficult unmasking your pitiful "Hezbollah doesn't advocate the elimination of Israel" argument and I don't think I'll have much trouble with the following claims:
  1. The Accusation: "I believe the integrity of the encyclopedia is severely compromised by references to Israeli government web-sites." The Reality: The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs is as reliable as any other country's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In fact, the exact opposite is true: if Misplaced Pages did not quote the Israeli government on the issue of Hezbollah, the integrity of the encyclopedia would be severely compromised! The Al Qaeda article cites the foreign affairs offices of the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, and Canada without any challenge to the reliability (or "worthiness") of those nations' foreign affairs office.
  2. The Accusation: "The founders of Israel aspired to seizing the southern part of Lebanon and ethnically cleansing the Muslim inhabitants. They did this for years before Israel was established, and it's important we recognise that fact." The Reality: I am not aware of any such aspirations in 1948. I don't doubt that Ben-Gurion could have said something to that effect, but even if he did, the inclusion of the quotation in the article on Hezbollah in that mannor is purposefully devious, manipulative, and appologetic toward Hezbollah. Furthermore, I see no mention in Ben-Gurion's quote of a desire for ethnic cleansing. It is at best a distorted exaggeration of a propogandistic speech made more than 30 years before the existance of Hezbollah. --GHcool 23:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Words_to_avoid#Terrorist.2C terrorism

This is now included in the source code as a comment: <!--Please do _not_ insert the POV word "terrorist" here as per ]. Changes without respect of the guideline will be promptly reverted. Thanks!-->

I think that if people make edits and also remove this comment and insert "terrorist" in the lead then all the edits should just be deleted. They should then not complain why everything was reverted. Count Iblis 17:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Count Iblis: No; someones controversial insertion doesn't give a right to revert everybody elses legitimate edits; and doing so is just using it as an excuse. Itzse 22:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the guideline mentioned above a content like ...Hezbollah, or its external security arm, has been labeled a terrorist organization by several countries; including Australia, the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, the Netherlands and Israel; but labeling it a terrorist organization is controversial; as the EU regards it as a terrorist organization but says that it is "unhelpful" to call it as such. is ecyclopaedic and legitimate.

According to the same guideline a content like Hizbollah is a terrorist org is not encyclopaedic.

The current version as it is is therefore NPOV. I believe there are no sideline or personal arguments that can be much clearer than that. -- Szvest 22:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

FayssalF: If you want to debate my edits if they are encyclopedic; thats fine. But what has this to do with my comment to Count Iblis? He reverted "four" peoples edits because "one" person inserted the controversial word "terrorist"; so I "accused" not "complained" that he used "one's" controversial edit as an excuse to revert "three" other peoples edits. So he goes on to defend himself here; for which I comment and point out his error. What has this to do with my edits today and my comment to him? Itzse 22:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
That happened by accident. And that's why the comment in the text was inserted. Only the editor who violates the NPOV policy w.r.t. this issue will be reverted, not others, of course. It then doesn't matter if that particular editor also made a lot of other constructive edits.
This is exactly the same policy used in the global warming article. There the sentence "Only a small minority of climate scientists discount the role that humanity's actions have played in recent warming" was a frequent attack by POV pushers. Since a similar comment was inserted there, there have only been a few attacks on that sentence. Count Iblis 23:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I accept it as an accident and all is forgiven. Itzse 23:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I think it might be about time that we protect this page again. There's been a lot of vandalism in the past couple of days. --GHcool 23:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated and Exaggerated Ties to Iran

Iran’s control over Hezbollah has been steadily declining since approximately 1996, during the reformist presidency of Mohammad Khatami. Money does continue to come “from Iran” to support Hezbollah, but not the Iranian government. Instead, it’s private religious foundations that direct the bulk of support, primarily to Hezbollah’s charitable activities. Nor are the amounts crucial to Hezbollah’s survival; even the high estimate frequently cited in the press—$200 million per annum—is a fraction of Hezbollah’s operating funds. However, the most important reason for not targeting Iran for the continued fighting in Lebanon is that this conflict is antithetical to Iran’s interests.

While the Iranian central government was weak and scattered after the Revolution, semi-independent charitable organizations, called bonyad (literally, “foundation”) sponsored by individual Shi’ite clerics began to help the fledgling Hezbollah organization establish itself as a defense force to protect the Shi’ite community. This was simply not state support. Given the semi-independent corporate nature of Shi’ite clerics, especially in the early days of Iran’s revolution, when internal power struggles were endemic, there was little the Khomeini government could do to curtail these operations.

Now, after nearly two decades, this ad hoc export of Iranian revolutionary ideology may have succeeded too well. Whereas today the bulk of the Iranian population has at least some doubts about their government, Hezbollah maintains a stronger commitment to the symbolic legacy of the Iranian Revolution than Iranians, according to Georgetown University professor Daniel Byman. In a 2003 Foreign Affairs article, Byman pointed out that, “ lacks the means to force a significant change in the movement and its goals. It has no real presence on the ground in Lebanon and a call to disarm or cease resistance would likely cause Hezbollah’s leadership, or at least its most militant elements, simply to sever ties with Tehran’s leadership.

In short, Hezbollah has now taken on a life of its own. Even if all Iranian financial and logistic support were cut off, Hezbollah would not only continue, it would thrive. Jacob Peters

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2790/

Baseless Statement

Is there any explanation as to how Hezbollah can systematically target civilians when in fact the vast majority of those killed Israeli colonists in July-August 2006 were in fact military thugs? Additionally, Mr. Nasrallah distinctly apologized for the accidental deaths of Palestinian Arab children. This claim that Hezbollah targets civilians is deranged Zionist POV.

The statement that "many countries" consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization is a factual error. Out of nearly 200 countries in the world, the only countries that slander Hezbollah as terrorist are America/Israel, England, Canada, Nederlands, and Australia.Jacob Peters

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