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Change article title?

I understand the WP convention that space mission pages are named for the payload, and the point that the roadster is, in Elon's own words, "the silliest thing we can imagine" as payload. Nevertheless, this article title makes the whole mission sound far more frivolous than it actually is. I'd suggest renaming the article "Falcon Heavy demo mission dummy payload" or similar. Any other suggestions/comments? Rosbif73 (talk) 07:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Rosbif73, WP:COMMONNAME? —Sladen (talk) 08:56, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Sladen, could you clarify what aspect of that policy you think applies here? Are you suggesting that the existing title is the most common way that relevant sources refer to this payload? Rosbif73 (talk) 10:51, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Rosbif73, although not the ultimate answer, WP:GTEST / WP:GHITS may be a good sanity check for whether a proposed name change is likely to be more beneficial or accessible for readers:

• "elon musk's tesla roadster" -wikipedia: 81,500 hits
• "falcon heavy demo mission dummy payload": 1 hit (this talk page)
• "falcon heavy demo mission dummy payload" -wikipedia: 0 hits

Are there any other names that we could also test for consideration? —Sladen (talk) 11:44, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

The Falcon Heavy has enough spinoff articles to add another one such as 'Falcon Heavy dummy payload' because it is so frivolous to the launch system and its development. If it was an actual boilerplate we would not be talking about it. I'm not convinced it needs a name change. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:44, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

• "falcon heavy dummy payload" -wikipedia: 1 hit (Reddit speculation)

—Sladen (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

You need to eliminate non-space-related hits from the counts:

• "elon musk's tesla roadster" "falcon heavy" -wikipedia gives 20800 hits
• "tesla roadster" "falcon heavy" -wikipedia gives 275000 hits, so clearly there are lots of other variant expressions used to describe this vehicle. I'm not convinced that the current title is the most common. However, it doesn't seem that there's any real consensus for a change of name at this time. With a bit of luck, SpaceX will give the payload a proper name of some sort once it's been launched, rendering this discussion moot. Rosbif73 (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

See how the Government calls it. So would Modified Tesla Roadster (mass simulator) be a suitable title ? Hektor (talk) 07:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

"Tesla Roadster" alone is not a description of this single car. It has more Google hits but it is not a suitable name here, for the same reason we don't move Space Shuttle Columbia (unique object) to Space Shuttle orbiter (type).

"Modified Tesla Roadster" is too general, and I don't think anyone would search for this term. The brackets wouldn't help either.

I think the current title is fine, unless SpaceX gives the object a unique name in the future. --mfb (talk) 08:03, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

"tesla roadster mass simulator" has a non-zero number of hits (200), so is a possibility (but less well-known than the present name). —Sladen (talk) 09:50, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Special:Permanentlink/824108476 included the "modified Tesla Roadster (mass simulator)" wording from the licence in MOS:BOLD form. This was removed in Special:Diff/824134305 (by BatteryIncluded). —Sladen (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

The title is flippant and misleading. It's misleading because one would expect an article with this name to be about a car in the normal sense of a car -- as in it's life as a thing you drive around. Every other article titled similarly is about a car in the thing-you-drive-around sense. The title should be more evident as to what the article is actually about.
It's flippant because it seems (to me at least) to be trying to be cute with an in-joke. That is, that a reader needs inside knowledge to know what the article is really about and that the title is "coded". That's not cute. It's flippant and unencyclopedic. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 09:39, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

98.216.245.29, what name(s) would be better? —Sladen (talk) 09:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I just wanted to add some weight to the "it's a good idea to improve the title" camp. Anything more accurate would probably reduce the flippancy factor at the same time. If the title suggests it's about a spacecraft and not a car, then a little bit of digression educating about orbits could be a little more justifiable. A number of names have been suggested already. The first alternate suggested "Falcon Heavy demo mission dummy payload" seemed pretty good, but whatever, as long as it's described as a spacecraft vs. as a car. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 22:33, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

"Tesla Roadster Spacecraft"? 98.216.245.29 (talk) 22:36, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

In case you have not read above, the Tesla car is a car, and will remain a car whether you put it in the ocean, on a road, or in orbit. A camera or two won't make it a spacecraft, nor a dummy driver. Nor a guide to the galaxy in the glove compartment. Call this article whatever, but I will confront any name implying it is a spacecraft. BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay, "Tesla Roadster Space Payload" then. Whatever. But, "Mr. Wonderful's Wonderful Car" is misleading and unencyclopedically enamorous of our Mr. Wonderful. It's not what the article's about. The article is about a car being used as a space payload, which is notable. It's not about a car as itself doing ordinary (or even special) car-like things, as is too-easily inferred by the current title. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 00:00, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

After launch: Tesla car in orbit. Or something like that. BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

• "tesla roadster spacecraft" -wikipedia (1 hit)
• "tesla roadster space payload" -wikipedia (0 hits)
• "mr. wonderful's wonderful car" -wikipedia (0 hits)
• "tesla car in orbit" -wikipedia (1,200 hits)

98.216.245.29, are there any other plausible suggestions? —Sladen (talk) 00:10, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Google "hits" are completely immaterial to deciding how to name an article. That's mind-bogglingly unencyclopedic. Let's not waste space here with any more of that. Please.  :-) 98.216.245.29 (talk) 01:09, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

The Roadster is only half of it—we're completely forgetting about Starman in the title, which is what people remember and think about. It isn't even Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster anymore, but it is Starman's. I would suggest something like "Starman's Tesla Roadster" or "Starman and his Tesla Roadster" because those titles adequately describe the entity that is the work of art now floating through space. Keavon (talk) 12:55, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Arc 5D disk info

Mentioned as part of load, but not much on it I could find. Found this: https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/16/11018018/5d-data-storage-glass Flightsoffancy (talk) 00:15, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

There are some links there that can be followed which give more info. Currently the wikilink for Arc 5D disk redirects to an article on 3D disks which I believe in inaccurate as the 5D disk has additional properties. But we don't have an article on 5D technology or the Arch Foundation. -- GreenC 23:56, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I found this article: https://medium.com/arch-mission-foundation/arch-mission-foundation-announces-our-payload-on-spacex-falcon-heavy-c4c9908d5dd1 Erick Soares3 (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Lead

I don't see why we need to include "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster is a first generation Tesla Roadster owned by entrepreneur Elon Musk". It's not like the title of the article is ambiguous and this is called "Steven Spielberg's Tesla Model S". We just need to say that Elon Musk owned this Tesla Roadster. epicgenius (talk) 15:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Also, per MOS:BOLDTITLE, we shouldn't bold "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" if this isn't the natural title. As it is, we already need to explain who Elon Musk is, and clarify that this is a first generation Roadster (because the link isn't obvious). epicgenius (talk) 21:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)​

Flyby or not flyby

The text says the roadster will not fly by Mars while the image indicates a flyby in 2020...Hektor (talk) 19:23, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

The Roadster will fly close to Mar's orbit soon, but Mars will be far away at that time. Due to the wear and tear the car will suffer (this could alter its orbit), it is hard to predict what will happen in the future. Maybe in 300 years it will have a flyby but within our lifetime it will not get close to Mars. --Frmorrison (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

No flyby. (And still not a "spacecraft in a mission to Mars".) The space junk will fly as far as Mars' orbital path. But Mars could be in the opposite side of the Sun at each pass. BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree, though, that it's misleading that image says "flyby". It should say "close encounter" or equivalent (assuming that's the case, instead of just a Mars orbit crossing). Meithan (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the graphic of the orbit from the article for now; it's an objectively misleading image that has false information on it. I'm working on creating a better graphic. I'm basing it on this image provided by Elon Musk himself on Twitter. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · count) 05:38, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Be aware that the image tweeted by Musk incorrect, it has the wrong aphelion. And I'm also working on an orbit diagram, similar to this video (but using updated orbital elements). Should we both prepare an image and have others vote? Meithan (talk) 06:14, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Concerning the possible close encounter in 2020, I extracted orbital positions of the Earth, Mars and the Roadster for the next 2 years from JPL Horizons, yielding this. The 2020 encounter is pretty close: 7.5 million km. Does this qualify as a close encounter? I would definitely not call it a flyby though. Meithan (talk) 07:31, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

That is an interesting bit of info. I want to include it but we need to cite a source with easier access than Horizon's Database. Any suggestions? BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

@Meithan: From what I understand "flyby" is simply another word for "encounter" in the context of space exploration. Even then, a distance of 7.5 million kilometres can't really be considered any type of encounter. There's been quite the debate over the years over whether or not Cassini's observation of 2685 Masursky is considered a "flyby". NASA has never publicly called the event an "encounter", and it made a closest approach of 1.2 million kilometres, much closer than the Roadster will come to Mars. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · count) 07:44, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

According to the JPL Horizons Ephemeris, the Roadster will pass about 20 lunar distances (<8Mkm) from Mars on October 6, 2020, flying over the north pole of Mars, close enough to change the orbital parameters of the "spacecraft". Tom Ruen (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

If you'd like me to remove the word "flyby" to File:Falcon Heavy Demonstration Mission orbit Feb 6 2018.png, that's easy enough... I replaced it with "closest approach < 8 million km". Tom Ruen (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

p.s. Definintion: fly·by: a flight past a point, especially the close approach of a spacecraft to a planet or moon for observation.

Tom Ruen: I don't think 8 million km is "close enough to change the orbital parameters of the "spacecraft"" appreciably. The radius of Mars's sphere of influence is 0.58 million km, so I'd say that the influence on the Roadster's trajectory is really tiny. Formally, being outside the sphere of influence means that the Sun is still the dominant force, I'd say by far at this distance.

Frankly, I'd say it'd be best if we avoid the word flyby, as people might imagine things like photos of Mars. "Close encounter" seems more neutral and less attention-drawing for the general public. Meithan (talk) 14:19, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

For something like 8 million kilometers, I'd be tempted to use the term "distant encounter." That is something the Cassini project used internally for close enough to mention but not to make a big deal about. I'm not sure how commonly that phrase is. By the way, this is close enough to change the Tesla's orbit, but not by much. Fcrary (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I like "distant encounter". It seems asteroids passing by the Earth are worth a mention in the media when they pass closer than ~20 lunar distances. However, considers an approach "close" when the asteroid passes within 1 lunar distance. So I'd say "distant" is appropriate. But perhaps we should wait until a knowledgeable source qualifies the 2020 encounter. Jonathan McDowell tweeted that the encounter is "well outside Mars' gravitational sphere of influence".

About the encounter altering the trajectory, I still think it's too far to make an important effect (I mean, every body in the solar system perturbs the Roadster's orbit; it's a question of quantifying how big the effect it is). One can do a quick napkin calculation to estimate the size of the perturbation Mars represents compared to the pull of the Sun. Since the Roadster will be about 1.67 AU from the Sun at Mars encounter, the ratio of distances to Mars and to the Sun is on the order of 1.67 AU / 8 million km ~ 31, while the Sun-Mars mass ratio is 2e30 kg / 6.4e23 kg ~ 3e6 ... Since perturbations scale as ~M/r^3, the distance effect is on the order of 31^3 ~ 3e4, which is 100 times smaller than the mass effect. In other words, the perturbation of Mars at closest encounter represents a "1% effect" on the Roadster's trajectory. Big enough to be of note? Meithan (talk) 01:23, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I found one source that talks about the Mars "flyby", of course using the same JPL data as me! Nothing else is close at all. Roadster will make its closest approach to Mars in October of 2020, coming within 4.3 million miles, according to Jonathan McDowell, an astrophysicist at Harvard and spaceflight expert. The trajectory shows it goes over the north pole of Mars AND happens to be close to a Earth-Mars opposition as well! Tom Ruen (talk)

Yeah, I saw McDowell's tweet. He's also sourcing the ~7 million km figure from the JPL ephemeris. And he says "well outside Mars' gravitational sphere of influence", which I understand to mean it's definitely not a flyby, and that it's probably not even a "close encounter", as asteroids in "close encounters" with the Earth typically pass well within Earth's sphere of influence. I like Fcrary's suggestion of calling it a "distant encounter" at best. We could mention that it's the closest encounter until 2030, but still a distant one. Meithan (talk)

Distant encounter is fair description to me. If the inclination was closer to Mars it would be a lot closer. I made a chart of the conjunction as seen from earth, showing it is as far above the ecliptic as Mars is below. And JPL shows its peak magnitude is also there, around 25, possible to see! Tom Ruen (talk) 22:03, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

For a distance comparison I saw this today, close is apparently alway relative: "ZC16D6D is an Apollo-type asteroid with a diameter of 90-200 metres. It was first observed at Catalina Sky Survey on February 9th, and will make a close approach on February 14th, at a distance of 0.05 AU (7.2 million km) from Earth. Now it is observable at +17.4 mag and brightening." Tom Ruen (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Here's a solution beyond Nasa's 2030 numeric integration. Tom Ruen (talk) 14:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Roadster JPL Sol#6. Close approaches. The 2047 approach to Earth looks fairly close. Nominal orbit has it brighten to 19.3 mag.
  • 2020-10-07 Mars: 0.049 AU (0.048/0.050)
  • 2035-04-22 Mars: 0.021 AU (0.004/0.038)
  • 2047-01-12 Earth: 0.030 AU (0.018/0.041)

POV forking reactions into media section

See WP:CSECTION.

It's clear from Musk's words and actions with both the car and the wheel of cheese that he is giving careful consideration to how all of this plays in the media, and he is adjusting the timing and tone of every part to manage the PR. He consciously managed the content of the headlines about the SpaceX COTS Demo Flight 1, because he wanted them to be about the launch. As soon as that news cycle was complete and the desired headlines appeared, then he revealed the wheel of cheese payload and the Monty Python jokes and such, and kicked off another cycle of positive news coverage. Masterful. Props to Musk.

The thing to realize is that the car and the cheese are media. The car is a press release. The cheese is a press release. The ballast could have been anything but by making it these specific objects, they are being put to double use as a "means of mass communication", which is the definition of "media". So when we put Media off at the bottom of the article, and only include non-SpaceX, non-Musk media, we have a WP:POVFORK. If your POV is from the company, your opinions go up here prominently, while everyone representing any other point of view goes down in this ghetto at the bottom of an article.

In articles about books and movies, the convention is to describe the characters and plot at the top, and at the bottom describe the critics reviews and box office numbers. That's fine; it would be confusing to interject commentary within the plot summary. But for any other kind of article, it's almost always best to stick to both/all points of view for each topic. So if you're going to report what Musk says the objective is, you immediately follow that with what others say it is. If you are going to say what SpaceX thinks the launch represents, then immediately follow that with what others think it represents. A says foo, B says bar.

I should add that this also makes articles much easier to write: every topic falls right into place without having to hunt for a section it belongs in. See also Misplaced Pages:Describing points of view. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, well kudos to Musk. Do we have a reliable cite saying this, so that the meta-meta aspect can be covered? —Sladen (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

We have already cited multiple sources saying it's a publicity stunt, its goal was to generate pictures for the press, it is a "message", it is meant to "show off something", all of which is "As with so much Musk does". A "message" or a "publicity stunt" or a "show" is a medium. What else do you want citations for? What else is there to add?

My point is mainly about where the content goes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I like the cut of your jib, Dennis, and I applaud your post. It's unlikely that the majority of editors will pay it any heed though, so I urge you to make perioic edits to the article to bring it into line. Lord knows we could do with more clear-headed editors like you on board. nagualdesign 18:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion here between "criticism" (ie. negative or critical opinion) and "reactions" which can be positive or negative. It would be POV if negative opinions are shunted together, but that is not what is going on here rather is simple organization of content. We usually have separate sections for "reactions" to events. If the current reactions section is only negative/critical then it needs to be balanced with more positive additions per WEIGHT. The "Objective" section (ie. SpaceX's plans made before the launch) is not the right place for material post-launch, articles are typically organized chronologically when possible: Pre-launch objectives, Payload, Launch, Future and Reactions. -- GreenC 05:23, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

You're segregating the opinions on the criterion of SpaceX vs everyone else. The objective section is SpaceX's soapbox, where Musk and his employees can describe their company in whatever glowing terms they choose. Nobody is allowed to respond in this section. Anybody who has anything else to say about it, good or bad or just re-framing the issue, is pushed down to the bottom of the article.

As far as positive reactions, nobody can find any. We had some lovely quotes about the greatness of this achievement, but they were referring to the Falcon Heavy rocket, not the use of a Roadster as a boilerplate mass simulator. If you can find anybody to cite who is positive about that, please add that. The nicest thing anyone has said is that it's not totally pointless and stupid. Either way, point and counter point belong together, not forked apart. As I said, see WP:CSECTION. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:40, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Aside from the Guardian article I've found most negative reactions stem from industry professionals whom are highly conservative. This is more a reflection of the industry, and not reflective of the general public. Hence this section is skewed to the negative and does not consider a far more positive public response. For that I suggest reporting on the number of views on the SpaceX livestream (13M views in 3-days) or articles with a more populist bent (one example, https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5540042/elon-musk-tesla-roadster-mars-car-falcon-heavy-starman-spacex-launch-dont-panic-sticker/ or http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5356825/Video-reveals-Elon-Musks-car-fired-MARS.html or http://www.techradar.com/how-to/spacex-falcon-heavy-launch-elon-musk-tesla-roadster).Jheld6557(Jheld6557) 20:48, 10 February 2018 (AEST)

Pageviews and British tabloids? You have to admit that if you have to resort to this as sources, you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. Musk worship at Misplaced Pages has become a plague. The thing to realize is that the more an article fawns over the subject, the more suspicious readers are. The cynicism inspired by propaganda actually makes them like the subject less. Not counting Daily Mail readers, obviously. Write about this dispassionately and readers will trust you. —Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:56, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

You're only interested in adding negative commentary, and you insist on it being "up top". If you were genuine in trying to improve the article fairly, you would include a balanced mix of positive and negative opinion per WEIGHT and you would follow standard procedure placing it in a separate reception section, based on a chronological layout in the rest of the article, instead of trying to misplace it in the Objective section for no other reason then to get it towards to the top of the article space. -- GreenC 20:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I complement Musk on being a brilliant showman, a skilled manipulator of the news cycle, and an effective strategist in achieving his company's goals. This is very consistent with the commentary made by most respectable media. I'm the one who added the (reputable) Scientific American's complement that "Thematically, it was a perfect fit". What else would you like to add? I think you need to do a careful reading of the coverage of this. The tabloid Daily Mail article gushes about the Falcon Heavy Demonstration Mission, which is fine, but that belongs over in that article. What does it actually say about the bit about using a car as ballast? The article simply quotes Musk and copies SpaceX's graphics and videos. You can't even quote the daily Mail saying anything like "it was a good idea to launch a car into space". They don't say that. They merely quote Musk, which brings us back to the issue: instead of independent thought, this article is a platform for copy-pasting what SpaceX says about itself. The Star reports this: "Musk made a pop culture reference!!!!" That's it. That's what the Star said. What content do you want to add to the article with this Star citation?

You keep complaining that you don't like what is being said, but what would you like? You want to report the number of page views and try to spin that as meaning public approval? Grotesque and horrible things get a lot of page views too. The raw number of 13 million views is rather ambiguous, without interpretation from a reputable source, like say Scientific American or Advertising Age.

I'm not standing in your way if you want to add positive reactions to using a car as a mass simulator. Please go ahead. All I'm saying is, your sources aren't giving you much. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC on reception section vs integrated layout

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Should statements, press releases, tweets, self-published video, etc, from SpaceX and Musk be given prominent placement in the article lead, and in the first article section (Objectives), excluding any non-SpaceX responses from that section, and keeping all commentary in the Reactions or Media section at the bottom of the article? These layout approaches are usually referred to as reception section vs integrated. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:44, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• Comment This "RFC" is awful. It's unsigned (who made it?), and the wording is entirely non-neutral meant to influence the voter in a desired direction. It goes against WP:RFC directions which says "Statement should be neutral". I hope the anonymous nominator will reconsider by making a new rationale and signing it. -- GreenC 20:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• OK, how would you phrase it then? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

It's non-neutral because the phrasing implies the information from SpaceX, in the lead and first section is pro-SpaceX opinion. I.e. on par with the non-SpaceX opinions in the reactions section. Anything from SpaceX saying the whole business is a great thing doesn't belong in the lead, and should go with all the other opinions in the reactions section. But if they are simply the source for the facts, the RFC shouldn't imply otherwise.Fcrary (talk) 22:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• how would you phrase it - depends what action you're trying to accomplish but just: "Should the reaction section be merged into the Objective section?" That's it. Very simple to understand and to !vote on - black and white. Then, in the survey section make a !vote "Support" with a rationale that includes what you wrote above. -- GreenC 03:29, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Integrated The subject is hard to nail down. Is it about a car? A spacecraft? A technological advance? The specific choice to use a Tesla car rather than mundane boilerplate (spaceflight) makes this a publicity stunt, and all of the statements, tweets, and videos are advertisements. There is nothing wrong with that and it's quite obviously very effective and good for business. But we should not structure this article the same as an article about a creative work like a book or movie. WP:CSECTION explains why; in particular this article is really about a corporation and its PR, and as WP:CORG explains, segregating reactions or commentary about companies makes for poor articles. The top of the table on criticism shows two main approaches, reception section and integrated, and integrated is ideal for topics where public opinion is divided and motives are not universally agreed to be sincere. We all agree that Catcher in the Rye is a novel, and that the author intended it as a work of art. We don't all agree on the examples in the integrated section on the table above: PETA, George Soros. Integrating third party praise, analysis, and criticism is the most neutral method for handling this kind of topic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

It's literally a road car that's been hurled into space. It's about the car. Maybe it's a spacecraft or technological advance. Calling it a "stunt" and "advertisement" is a pejorative opinion. It might as well be called a work of performance art, or even sculpture when you include Spaceman, the other objects and the video. These things are all opinions that should be presented as opinions, who said it and where. But for Misplaced Pages purposes we are documenting the car itself and how people respond to it. -- GreenC 18:01, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

You are projecting your own likes and dislikes into the article, rather than dispassionately following the sources.

Saying "it's about a car" is like calling a press release or a legal document a "piece of paper", or a sculpture a "piece of stone". We call Fountain (Duchamp) a work of art because that's what reliable sources tell us it is. It does happen to be just a urinal, and if there is significant (non-fringe) opinion that it is just a urinal, we can give those opinions appropriate weight in the article. If it deserves weight, we can cite those who say that the Magna Carta is "just a piece of parchment, nothing more". We call it a charter, a legal document, because our sources tell us it is, not because of what you and I and a bunch of anonymous editors happen to think.

Musk and SpaceX have taken the position that this is "just a car"; that it is out there in space "just to be silly", "because we can", etc. That whimsical tone is part of the image the company wants to project. Yet it's not just that, and he reveals a lot when he said "If we can send a Roadster to the asteroid belt, I think we can solve Model 3 production." Advertising Age, Business Insider, and the New York Times, among others saw a connection between Tesla losing 3/4 billion and this very public distraction. These sources, as well as Scientific American, have said it is not just a car. They have said it is a publicity stunt, a piece of corporate marketing and branding. It is not "just a car in space", it is a message. The overwhelming consensus tells us that, just like the overwhelming consensus tells us that the Magna Carta is not just a piece of parchment, it has symbolic meaning beyond whatever physical materials it is made of. You might happen to think that calling it a publicity stunt is "pejorative", but again Advertising Age, Business Insider, Scientific American, etc. think no such thing: they say it is a brilliant piece of corporate image making, and it shows how far Musk is ahead of his competitors. It is deliciously ironic that to make this an effective PR stunt, Musk must maintain a cool pose, not admitting what it is but performing for public appearances that he shoots cars off into space just because he is that chill.

It all comes down to WP:WEIGHT: the greatest weight from our best sources is that it is a PR stunt, and a very good one; a less weighty POV in our sources is that it is a bad, or harmful, or irresponsible PR stunt, and the least weighty but still significant POV is the position from Musk/SpaceX/fanboys that it's "just a car" they threw into orbit because "whatever dude". --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Separate. The lead and objectives sections do cite SpaceX, but only deal with facts about the payload. Nothing in there speaks to whether or not the whole business was a good or a bad idea. I'm for keeping facts, regardless of their source, in the lead and objectives (and payload and orbit) sections, and opinions in the reaction section.Fcrary (talk) 22:24, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Facts? If the Objectives section is merely "facts about the payload", what is the Roadster payload section for? The Objectives section begins by quoting Musk's justification for using a car. The whole point of the section is about why they used a car and not concrete. In the lead, first sentence quotes Musk's "something fun and without irreplaceable sentimental value" (straight from the press kit), speaking directly to whether or not it is a good idea. It's all SpaceX's exclusive soapbox until the very end. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. The Objectives section is about why the launched a car instead of some other sort of test mass. That section factually describes their stated reasons. It doesn't include any SpaceX statements arguing that those motives are good or bad. That wouldn't belong under Objectives. Now, if you have a non-SpaceX reference pointing out other motives (say about it being good publicity at little extra cost), that might have a place in Objectives, as in "Others have suggested that doing something "fun and silly" was not the sole objective..." As long as the text is phrases to describe, not judge, why they did it, it's about objectives. If it's people saying what they think about those motives, it ought to be under ``Reactions.Fcrary (talk) 22:51, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Factually? It parrots the company line. The Daily Mail takes the same servile approach to Musk’s every word, but our most reliable sources are generally agreed that it’s not for “fun”, it’s business. It sells cars and distracts from Tesla’s bad news financials. The stated motives are in dispute and that is why we cannot treat them as facts. —Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:16, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Let's try again. I wrote that "That section factually describes their stated reasons." That's correct. Note that I said "stated reasons." SpaceX stated what their reasons were, and the section accurately (factually) describes what the company said. What people (SpaceX and others) have said about their motives is a matter of fact. And stating those facts in the "Objectives" section seems reasonable. But there have also been many statements about whether or not people agree those motives, or what they think about the whole thing. That belongs in a separate "Reactions" section.Fcrary (talk) 23:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, in the most reductionist possible sense, you can claim that parroting the official company message from the lead to nearly the end of the article is "factual". That kind of naivete has never been what we consider neutrality; Misplaced Pages policy has always been to use your common sense, and be aware of the effective meaning of any content, not just the literalist fig leaf that "it's a fact that Musk really did tweet this, there for it's fine". The lack of secondary sourcing is evidence of the glaring problem with this. When all your sources are self-published media from the subject, you're effectively handing them their own private platform. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:23, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Keep reception section - How society reacts to the car is material enough for a section. For example is it a spaceship, a satellite, an art object? Is it a good thing or bad thing? Spacejunk or advertising? Much can be, has been and will be said. Currently it's NPOV because one editor has add many opeds from obscure sources of a singularly negative tone, it's looking not encyclopedic but a "list of bad things people said about the car". -- GreenC 18:49, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

"How society reacts" may or may not define an act. Someone charged with breaking the law might claim it is something other than a crime: they can call it an act of civil disobedience, or performance art, or a legitimate act of war, whatever. How we describe it depends on the judgement of history and of our sources. The Manson Family might claim that what they did was Helter Skelter (Manson scenario) -- whatver the hell that is, but we just call them murders. But we don't call George Washington a traitor or a terrorist or a common criminal, even though from a certain social or legal perspective, his acts could meet those definitions. It isn't up to SpaceX whether we treat this as just a car in space, or whether our entire approach is to treat it as a PR stunt. How a thing is defined is determined by the general consensus of our best sources, even if the actors/creators/owners/whatever define it otherwise. This article is not SpaceX's personal webspace: "a person or an organization that is the subject of an article does not own the article, and has no right to dictate what the article may say." We are not subservient to how SpaceX happens to have framed this. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:36, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but I think we have enough references to add something 'neutral' to the Objective section. I'd say something like "Others have noted the publicity value of launching a Tesla and suggested this may have been an unstated objective." Fcrary (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree, if we can't merge this into a single section, then at a minimum, each of SpaceX's claims as to why they launched a car into space should be followed by a summary of the general consensus among reliable sources that it is a successful, groundbreaking, and admirable PR stunt, or words to that effect. If we go that route, the minor point of view that it's a malevolent or failed or harmful PR stunt can be described in another section. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Separate - In the Objective section, it may be stated that the publicity generated by the test launch was also a calculated/suspected move to promote Tesla. No need to editorialize further, and certainly not indulging in a shower of WP:PEA reactions, e.g: envy, coup, visionary, stunt.. BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Dennis, you have been reverted dozens of times on this by numerous editors. Then you opened this "survey" and it is clear that point-counterpoint format in the Objectives section is not to be done. Regardless, you keep disrupting the article. Enough! There is a section for the Objectives and a section for what the world thinks and interprets of the event. BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add:

'']'' agreed with '']'' that the Roadster space launch was the "greatest ever car commercial without a dime spent on advertising", demonstrating that Musk is "miles ahead of the rest" in reaching young consumers, where "mere mortals scrabble about spending millions to fight each other over seconds of air time", Musk "just executes his vision."<ref name=Wnek2018>{{Citation |url= http://adage.com/article/special-report-super-bowl/advertising-marketing-elon-musk/312307/ |title= There's Advertising and Marketing, and Then There's Elon Musk |first=Mark |last= Wnek |magazine=] |date= February 8, 2018 }}</ref><ref name=>{{Citation |title= Tesla created the world's best car commercial without spending a dime on advertising |first=Mark |last= Matousek |website=] |date=February 7, 2018 |url= http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-made-the-worlds-best-car-commercial-without-spending-money-2018-2  }}</ref> 

--Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I think that "Reaction" section should be just removed because the selection of which particular "reactions" to mention is WP:OR (not just POV). The article is already a lot of fanboy whoo-ha, but that section makes it worse by reading like a gossip page. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 00:58, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Choosing which reactions to mention is what we call "editing Misplaced Pages". Somebody has to decide, because article content can't choose itself. The primary criterion is defined by due weight, as well as general content policy, and verifiability. If we're going to lead with quotes like "something fun and without irreplaceable sentimental value" or say it would carry the "silliest thing we can imagine", we've already levt behind simple facts and we're going to sound pretty gossipy no matter. So then we should at least try to balance everyone's expressions of feeling, jealousy, or irritation, and not just let Musk have the platform to himself. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dennis Bratland: The page has been unlocked; feel free to add your proposed content yourself. — JFG 08:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Talking about space-junk implications is fine, but the section goes about the wrong way by turning it into an unencyclopedic gab-fest. Primary-sourced "reactions" (which is all the section really is) aren't notable. You choosing them and calling it "editing" doesn't make them notable. That's synthesis of a new idea, a POV, from primary sources, not "editing". The section is all "He says, and he says, and she says, and they say..." -- an unencyclopedic form. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 09:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Section is NPOV because it's a collection of negative criticism from obscure sources and no sense of weight what in balance the world is saying which is by and large positive. -- GreenC 17:47, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Orbital parameters

There's a still bit of inconsistency in the various orbital parameters reported in the article, specially the aphelion distance. We should pick a reference and stick to it.

I downloaded the Cartesian heliocentric positions of Earth, Mars and the Roadster from JPL Horizons and computed the trajectory's actual aphelion and perihelion distances (for the next passages) instead of obtaining them from the osculating elements. They come out as 0.9860 AU and 1.6638 AU. Should we use these? Meithan (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

There seems to be some better sourcing now but unless I misunderstood I don't think what you did would comply with WP:CALC anyway. 08:47, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't comply with WP:CALC. An alternative is to use the osculating elements directly output by Horizons, with the condition that they are taken after they've stabilized following Earth escape. A few weeks should do, apparently. This direct Horizons query returns the osculating elements between 2018-Feb-08 and 2018-Dec-08 in 1 month intervals. The aphelion distance ('AD' in the table) starts at 1.75 au but quickly stabilizes around 1.6639 au. This is using JPL's orbit solution #7, by the way, which was posted today.

I think we should use this value (rounded to 1.66 au perhaps) and cite Horizons directly using that query. I'm pinging Nagualdesign and Insertcleverphrasehere since they were recently involved in a change to the aphelion value (and this should be discussed here). –Meithan (talk) 03:25, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

NASA JPL is still using .99 and ~1.67 in the horizons database. — Insertcleverphrasehere 03:29, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for considering me, but my only contributions regarding the aphelion have been monkey-see-monkey-do edits where I made all the numbers the same, purely for consistency. I took the number that was referenced (at the time) and mentioned 3 times in the article and copied it into the infobox, along with the reference.

I have just altered the orbital diagram though, so that it matches the current (1.67 au) aphelion, and if you change the numbers drastically again someone's going to get a message with a stern looking emoji on the end! nagualdesign 03:37, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Insertcleverphrasehere: yes, the JPL Horizons "object page" cites '~1.67 au' (emphasis on approximate), but the orbital elements consistently show an aphelion closer to 1.66 au for the rest of the year (including around the upcoming aphelion on Nov 9). I can settle for either value. However the article currently cites '1.68 au' in the text and '1.6779 AU' in the info box. –Meithan (talk) 03:42, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Nagualdesign: I've been warned ;).

But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing over 1.66 vs 1.67 au (that difference is immaterial), but rather on choosing a stable reference for the orbital elements. I believe osculating elements from JPL Horizons after ~March is the way to go. If you guys don't oppose that, I'll go ahead and update all orbital elements and cite the direct query. And Nagualdesign, frankly I wouldn't re-upload the diagram; the change in aphelion is less than 0.01 au, which represents a difference in your diagram of a few pixels at full res and less than a pixel for the thumbnail. –Meithan (talk) 06:04, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Car year & other specs?

I have seen at least three different years claimed for this car: 2008, 2010, and 2018. I came here looking for a link to a more reliable source, but this article doesn't include this information or other specs about this Roadster. Would love to see basic specs added. 38.108.59.142 (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

38.108.59.142, VIN is possibly 5YJRE1A34A1000686, but a cite has not yet been located. Perhaps a resident who knows their way around the public records system in California may be able to do some research. It will likely confirm that the car was "built" in Hethel, England (Lotus factory) and then air freighted into the US for "final assembly" by Tesla Motors. The reason this content is not in the article is because we are lacking citations sources. When cites are located, it can of course be added. —Sladen (talk) 09:10, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Article title

The title was always sort of an unknown. Now that we know more about the mission, should we consider renaming it? I assume Elon owns more than one Tesla Roadster, so it's probably not super accurate to say this is "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" without further qualification. Something that was unknown until shortly before launch was the presence of Starman. Perhaps "Starman's Tesla Roadster" or "Starman and Tesla Roadster" or "Starman and his Tesla Roadster" would be better names? The Roadster belonged to Elon Musk, but now it more belongs to Starman than Elon, and Starman is a big hit so it's a shame to keep him from the title. Open to other article title suggestions as well! Keavon (talk) 12:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the current title places too much emphasis on Elon Musk, and is not descriptive enough of the article subject. I would suggest Tesla Roadster in orbit or Orbital Tesla Roadster, or simply Tesla Roadster (satellite). "Starman" does not necessarily need to be in the title, but this article should be mentioned in Starman (disambiguation). (Well, its already there as Starman (SpaceX).) — JFG 14:34, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

It's not in Earth orbit so it would cause confusion. It's not a satellite in the way we generally think of satellite's so it would also cause confusion. The article is mainly about the car after launch but is also about the car prior to launch. The article topic is a car. -- GreenC 17:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Rename to Tesla Roadster (boilerplate) per Boilerplate (spaceflight). 178.92.148.243 (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

How about Tesla Roadster in space. BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Boilerplate is a specialized term most people won't recognize what it means, and it was only a boilerplate for a while, now it's something else (what not sure). Of all suggestions so far Tesla Roadster in space is best, but I think whatever is done it should go through an RM given the controversial nature of the article. -- GreenC 18:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd approve Tesla Roadster in space. Note that the COSPAR database lists this object as "TESLA ROADSTER" (look for International Designator 2018-017A at Celestrak). — JFG 19:07, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@GreenC: It's in orbit, just not in Earth orbit, I don't see much confusion possible here. I agree there would be more ambiguity if we called it a satellite. There was some discussion about calling it a "spacecraft" but that is also incorrect, as it lacks most features of a proper spacecraft (propulsion, attitude control, communications, thermal management, etc.) — JFG 19:09, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it would be a source of confusion for the non-space-aware(?) person. If you don't say orbit around what the natural conclusion is probably earth. Most things in the news (non-specialist) when speaking of orbit is about things in earth orbit. -- GreenC 19:39, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

One could go with Tesla Roadster in Heliocentric orbit (current state), but prior to that, it was Tesla Roadster in elliptical Earth orbit, and prior to that it was Tesla Roadster in a fairing, and Telsa Roadster stuck in an LA traffic jam, and sometime prior to that 38% of it started off in England. All of these types of titles have the disadvantage of only reflecting one particular state, and few are likely to meet WP:COMMONNAME (a quick WP:GTEST can help to sanity check proposals), as can writing the proposed phrase in the middle of a sentence to see if it works, or if every single use is going to require piping to make it work in natural language. —Sladen (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)? Per examples at Spacecraft#Unmanned_spacecraft is seems to classify as a spacecraft (it was instrumented, and transmitted data, even if that data's only purpose was images to build hype); Ratsat for example is another boilerplate that is considered a 'spacecraft' (at least in the loosest possible terms). Better name than any of the above and has a good ring to it too. — Insertcleverphrasehere 20:25, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

One could argue that it may quality as an "artificial satellite" but a "spacecraft", no way. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:30, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded, Boilerplate_(spaceflight) refers to boilerplates as 'non-functional spacecraft'. It is a spacecraft, at least in the loosest definition of the word as used in spaceflight terminology. — Insertcleverphrasehere 20:32, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Definition of spacecraft: spacecraft": "a vehicle designed for travel or operation in space beyond the earth's atmosphere or in orbit around the earth." Spin its wheels and see how much traction (delta V) it gets. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded Colloquially perhaps, but not per spaceflight definitions. If you want a reliable source: NASA JPL's Horizons database lists it as object -143205, "SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft) (Tesla)." — Insertcleverphrasehere 20:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

A spacecraft is not defined by its location, but its design and function. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded; See . NASA described it “Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). Dummy payload from the first launch of SpaceX Falcon Heavy launch vehicle. Consists of a standard Tesla Roadster automobile and a spacesuit-wearing mannequin nicknamed Starman.". Sorry, but if NASA says it meets the definition of a spacecraft, you aren't going to convince me that the moniker is inappropriate. — Insertcleverphrasehere 20:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

You can check it yourself by going HERE and clicking 'change' next to the "target body" and typing in "roadster". — Insertcleverphrasehere 20:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Convince the other Misplaced Pages editors. BatteryIncluded (talk) 21:02, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily saying it is the best possible title, but it is the best I can come up with (and apparently NASA too). All of the others up above are ad hoc descriptors that fail WP:CONCISE or are completely made up. Tesla Roadster (boilerplate) is probably the next-best proposal above, but even boilerplates can be considered spacecraft, and even our own article on boilerplates lists the SpaceX roadster among Commercial spacecraft boilerplates. Unless something better is proposed, I think NASA's title is good enough for me. I am keen to see others weigh in. — Insertcleverphrasehere 21:13, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I think (spacecraft) is probably best. If someone's trying to find the article, most people wouldn't think of boilerplate. The term is a bit obscure. Anyway, the article on Boilerplate (spaceflight) does say "(spacecraft)" and phrases like, "full-scale, non-functional boilerplate spacecraft..." So I think it's technically correct to use Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). On a related note (which I'm probably going to regret), do we know the Tesla separated from the second stage? Or was it broadcasting through the second stage's telecommunications equipment? Fcrary (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

For many days I looked for any information on a possible car-booster separation. Never found any, so I assume they remained together because SpaceX made no noise about further "accomplishments". BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:01, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that no, it did not disconnect, though I'm not certain of this. The Horizons listing seems to imply the attachment fitting as part of the listing, and NASA JPL isn't tracking any other objects from this launch, which heavily implies that they are travelling attached. However, I don't think we have official confirmation of payload non-separation. — Insertcleverphrasehere 22:05, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for volunteering the correct interpretation of the database display: The code "(Spacecraft) (Tesla)" means the third stage (spacecraft) is still attached to the car (Tesla). BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:10, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

BatteryIncluded. I'm not sure what you mean by that, the listing currently refers to several titles on the data sheet: "Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)" and " Tesla Roadster (AKA: Starman, 2018-017A)" and "Target body name: SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft) (-143205) {source: tesla_s5}". I really recommend checking the listing yourself with the instructions above. Interestingly, it gives a payload weight of "~1250 Kg", which would imply the car alone. The terminology "(Spacecraft) (Tesla)" seems to have been slightly changed since the CNN source that I linked above was published. Update: sorry this sin't true, the listing in the search still includes this wording. — Insertcleverphrasehere 22:21, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Fcrary, BatteryIncluded, and Insertcleverphrasehere: FYI, Jonathan McDowell has confirmed with a SpaceX source that the Roadster was not separated from the second stage. The special PAF also includes a plaque with engraved names of SpaceX personnel. — JFG 04:26, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Given a modicum of support for Tesla Roadster (spacecraft), I have launched a move request below, to try and gather consensus. — JFG 05:37, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Lead does not adequately summarize the article contents

Something like 1/3 of this article is devoted to describing the reaction among experts and major media to the idea of shooting a car into orbit around the Sun, and to Musk's claimed reasons for doing so. I attempted to add one (1) sentence to the lead summarizing the gist of this reaction, but others deleted it again and again and again. How can you have an article lead that ignores so much of the article's overall content?

I suggest the lead needs to summarize all sections of the article, and if the very first line is going to be devoted to adoringly parroting Elon Musk quotes, then the least we can do is follow that with mention of what most responsible experts have to say about it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what is the extra sentence being proposed to be added? —Sladen (talk) 04:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Let's see, like 30-ish words?

Musk's choice to shoot one of his Tesla Motors cars into space was generally interpreted as not merely a bit of fun, but rather as a savvy and unprecedented marketing and public relations coup.

"public relations coup" sounds pretty peacocky, but get a load of the sources. They consistently argue that Musk is the envy of other CEOs and brand managers, and they are all playing catch-up in following his ability to reach young consumers and get the most out of the modern media landscape. Ad Age described it as everyone else still spending millions on a few more seconds of Super Bowl ad time while Musk is spending millions "executing his vision". So it's an accurate summary of the sources. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Minus the peacocks and mid-sentence negatives: "The decision to launch a car into space was interpreted as a savvy marketing and public relations coup." —Sladen (talk) 04:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. Any objections? nagualdesign 04:43, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Good enough. Honestly, anyone who thinks that language is too peacock-y for an encyclopedia ought to do something about "something fun and without irreplaceable sentimental value". Cut that quote down, or paraphrase it into language with a little more gravitas. If you are comfortable with such a direct quote at the very top of an article, then I don't see why 'savvy marketing coup' bothers you at all. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:50, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

"savy marketing" and "PR coup" are cliche phrases and I wonder what they mean. Why is it a "coup", a coup is when you take something over - do sources actually call it a coup? These are hot button phrases. If we are going to emphasis this one aspect it be done neutrally: "Some observers saw it as a marketing success for Tesla". It's short and leaves open adding additional reactions: "Reactions to the Roadster were varied, some observers saw it as a marketing success for Tesla, while others interpreted it as an art object, and others saw it as space junk." Now it's a summary (per WP:LEAD) of the Reaction section without overemphasizing any one reaction. -- GreenC 16:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@GreenC: Your suggestion would indeed be a good, brief, balanced, neutral summary of reactions the lead. — JFG 16:50, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

First, look up the definition of coup. Second, if those words lack the gravitas of an encyclopedia, then what is Musk’s dreamy quote doing there? I’m fine with the suggestion here, but these rationalizations prove my point about the lack of objectivity when it comes to this CEO superhero. —Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:05, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Quotes by Musk should also be shortened, paraphrased, or toned down. — JFG 17:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Excess quotation of him is big part of the problem. If the article was the Elon Musk bio, so many quotes would convey the tone and personality of the subject, but he is not the subject of this article. The phrase "marketing coup" can be placed in quotes and attributed AdWeek. Or "marketing stunt". What I'm saying about this here doesn't come from nowhere: it's in the sources. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:09, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I have no problem including a neutral summary of the reception section so long it's representative of the reception section. -- GreenC 04:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

If that is the case, the deleting the summary again and again and again is a contradiction of editing policy. If, as you claim, you want a neutral summary, then your job is to rewrite the existing content in the lead to be more neutral. What you did was a wholesale deletion, and another case of stuffing all non-SpaceX messaging to the ghetto at the end of the article. If you want to be taken for a neutral and reasonable editor, and not a flack, then do not nuke content wholesale. Rewrite it. Tweak it. Suggest improvements. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like you have a problem with me, I'm not here to cause you aggravation. -- GreenC 05:07, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

You contradicted yourself. If you are fine with a summary of reactions in the intro, then why did you delete such a summary entirely? You claim you only want a more neutral summary, but you made no attempt to make it more neutral. I guess I have to admit I do have a problem with a line of reason that is clearly self-contradictory. I asked you in my edit summaries and elsewhere to stop reverting and discuss. I ask you now to offer a more neutral summary of the article content. Sladen, nagualdesign, and I are comfortable with the suggested text above. Either agree to it, or suggest a different version, if it's true that you do want a neutral summary of the reactions in the intro. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:21, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit warring

@Dennis Bratland and GreenC: Stop edit warring! There's no rush to get the article how either of you might want it, and repeatedly reverting each other while saying, "You discuss it" "No, you discuss it!" is infantile. Just stop editing the article for the time being and engage in civil discussion. That's how Misplaced Pages works. And Dennis, you don't have to include everything that anyone and everyone says to be NPOV. To pick an extreme example, if some idiot says something stupid we don't have to include it just because it counters what someone else said. Not all commenters (in the media) are equal, and they don't all have to be given equal footing here. nagualdesign 04:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis, I see you posted the section above while I was typing this. That's more like it. More of the same please. nagualdesign 04:17, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Nagual, that's absurd. If edit warring is so terrible, then editors who have reverted others again and again and again are no better. The kind of hypocrisy one sees in these situations is disgusting. It's entirely based on a double standard that "it's OK when I do it because I'm righteous".

Your strawman argument is silly: I never said "all" responses should be included. I specifically mentioned fringe theories that we should not mention at all, such as anything based on the Earth being flat, or angering space lizards with our hubris. The irrational fear of space collisions or space junk, based on the incorrect belief that the car is in Earth orbit, or that the solar system is so crowded that a car out there is a hazard, or that it would have been any better to launch some concrete blocks rather than a Roadster, are not fringe. They are based on misinformation and faulty reasoning, but we have already been through numerous mainstream sources who hold these faulty believes. Sadly, we now are back to another version that ends with a calm reassurance that there is no risk that the car will collide with anything, without any context explaining why such a reassurance is needed. If a need exists to explain that a collision is not likely, then those who fear a collision are not mere fringe lunatics. Otherwise we'd need to reassure everyone that there are no angry space lizards.

More importantly, I don't ask that every response must go in the lead. That is your strawman attack. All I ask is for any. Any mention at all of non-SpaceX messages. We currently have no mention whatsoever of any reaction, even though much of the article is devoted to the reaction. The near-universal consensus among respectable, mainstream reliable sources is that this is not just about Musk being a chill dude with a cool sense of humor. There is near-universal consensus that he is a master showman and this is a brilliant PR stunt.

What is so embarrassing about all that? Put aside your feelings and defer to what the sources say. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what is the "any" one sentence being proposed to be added to the WP:LEAD? —Sladen (talk) 04:28, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

We're not here to discuss each other and what we imagine our motives are. Just take the point, stop edit warring, and discuss content. Cheers. nagualdesign 04:32, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

If you are that worked up about it, you should probably take a break for a day or so. There is WP:NODEADLINE. — Insertcleverphrasehere 04:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Nagualdesign, if you're going to keep accusing me of edit warring, then you are obviously here to discuss other editors, rather than content. Listen to yourself. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I have no further comment. Now, back to discussing content please. nagualdesign 04:47, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Aaaaaand now no one gets to edit the article... please everybody can we calm down and discuss things like adults? Discuss content, not other editors. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Why is a random person from a random college quoted? How are they an expert in space debris? Does NASA or anyone else in charge of space debris listen to them? Or did they just pass a college course that included a chapter on it? Who are they? Do reliable sources cover what they say? Dream Focus 08:37, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Assuming that you're talking about Hugh Lewis, see the link provided by GreenC below. Lewis is a senior lecturer at the University of Southampton here in the UK, and an expert in the field of space debris. His tweet was covered in Deutsche Welle, which seems like a reliable secondary source to me. nagualdesign 18:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Hugh Lewis is also an author on a book on space debris. As experts go, this is person is notable enough. The alternatives (deleted) are opinions claiming the car could trigger a Kessler event. BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I hate to keep coming back to this but a "reaction" is an opinion. This misunderstanding of what kinds of opinions are allowed has to be resolved. Opinions that are incorrect may be mentioned, so long as they represent a significant point of view.

The definition of opinions includes things that people are wrong about. The fact that some people think the car is still in orbit, or that it was in Earth orbit long enough to set off a cascading exploding satellite disaster, or that such a disaster is even likely, is a significant point of view. Is it misguided? Is it wrong? Yes, they're in error. Anyway, it's fine. Eliminate that one source, whatever. Exclude mention of he Kessler thing. No problem. There are plenty of others. The Guardian for example, concerned about littering. Or rather, that this is the beginning of a slippery slope leading to space becoming a playground for the rich, and their dumping ground. Some are concerned about the symbolism of tossing trash into space, even it it isn't technically a real risk.

BatteryIncluded, please do not repeat that the car is not in earth orbit and a Kessler event is not going to happen. You've said that a dozen times. I hear you. We all hear you. We all agree. No need to repeat it. I've asked you several times if you understand that WP:WEIGHT includes points of view that are significant, even if they are factually wrong. Do you understand that? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Ideally, I think we need to quote people who actually know what they're talking about. nagualdesign 21:38, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Policy contradicts you. See WP:VALID: "We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world." There is nothing there about only mentioning those who "know what they are talking about". We definitely should not present this in a way that adds validity or legitimizes clearly erroneous points of view. The tone should not treat opinions that the car is a navigational hazard as factual, and we should clearly say why they are in error.

Can you please read over the relevant sections of WP:NPOV, particularly WP:WEIGHT, WP:VALID, etc., and Misplaced Pages:Describing points of view. If you wish to exclude opinions because they are too insignificant, have too few adherents and are fringe theories, yes, of course. But if you're excluding them on the grounds that they "don't know what they're talking about", then you're not reading the policy. This is exactly what I can't seem to make any headway with BatteryIncluded over. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

1. I said what I think, and no policy can contradict that.
2. Established scholarship = people who actually know what they're talking about.
3. I'm familiar with the guidelines, thanks.

nagualdesign 21:59, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

But what is your point, then? The discussion is over whether we should or should not mention opinions that are (almost certainly) in error. First you say you don't want those who don't know what they're talking about, and now you say you're "just saying"? You're not opposed to mentioning (without legitimizing) erroneous opinions? You were just interjecting what you "think" without intending it to be relevant to the topic? It's really hard to tell. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we're talking at cross-purposes. If you're asking whether we should include the opinions of people who have clearly got their facts wrong my answer is no, I think we should not. nagualdesign 22:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit request; grammar error

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Grammar fix: "deliberate control of both their timing and the content of his corporate public relations stunts was the envy" -> "deliberate control of both the timing and the content of his corporate public relations stunts was the envy" --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:58, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dennis Bratland: this is  Done — xaosflux 19:18, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

DW article

@Nagualdesign: - I don't get this cite: The source does not contain the quote nor the name "Hugh Lewis". Are we looking at the same source? It is a DW article with URL http://www.dw.com/en/what-you-need-to-know-about-spacexs-falcon-heavy-launch/a-42466661 - please confirm. -- GreenC 04:59, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes. There's a 'tweet box' under "3. Where it's going". The quote was wrong though, which I amended. nagualdesign 05:06, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Got it, my browser's add blocker was making the box invisible. -- GreenC 05:09, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

No worries. I'm taking it on trust that Dr Lewis is indeed an expert in space debris, which makes his tweet somewhat noteworthy. nagualdesign 05:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Seems to be in the UK https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~hglewis/ .. -- GreenC 16:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Infobox edit request

Please amend the infobox, changing

| Orbit        = ]<br/> Perihelion: 0.98 AU<ref name="BGrayElements"> {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180210065005/https://sattrackcam.blogspot.com/2018/02/theres-starman-waiting-in-sky.html |date=February 10, 2018 }} SatTrackCam Leiden (b)log. Retrieved February 8, 2018.</ref> <br/>Aphelion: 1.67 AU <br/>Inclination: 1.05° <br/>Orbital period: 1.53 year

to

| Orbit        = ]<br/> Perihelion: 0.98&nbsp;AU<ref name="BGrayElements"> {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180210065005/https://sattrackcam.blogspot.com/2018/02/theres-starman-waiting-in-sky.html |date=February 10, 2018}} SatTrackCam Leiden (b)log. Retrieved February 8, 2018.</ref><br/>Aphelion: 1.70&nbsp;AU<ref name="SFN_rearview"/><br/>Inclination: 1.05°<br/>Orbital period: 1.53&nbsp;year

mainly to bring the aphelion in line with the rest of the article. Or, if the aphelion really is 1.67 AU, change all other instances in the article to match. nagualdesign 05:03, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

​Checked Horizons database, JPL's most recent estimate is 0.99 to 1.67 au. Also au should not be in capital letters. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough, then let's swap out the reference and change all instances to 1.67 au. I never realized that au was lower-case! Thanks. nagualdesign 05:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

​Neither did I till I looked it up yesterday. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the {{Edit fully-protected}}. Rather than write another I guess someone can swap out all the 1.70s and AUs when the dust has settled. nagualdesign 05:17, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, at the moment it is close enough to be considered rounding. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Hey, what's 4.5 million kilometres between friends, eh? nagualdesign 05:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you to whoever amended the article. nagualdesign 22:51, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 February 2018

It has been proposed in this section that Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster be renamed and moved to Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster → Tesla Roadster (spacecraft) – Per discussion above, there has been some criticism of the current title, which excessively emphasizes Elon Musk, and doesn't describe what is special about this car. Various titles were proposed, and Tesla Roadster (spacecraft) has gathered more support than others. Let's see if we can achieve consensus. — JFG 05:23, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support per criteria of our titling policy, especially WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE. — JFG 05:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Opposed - Not a spacecraft but a car. I suggest Tesla Roadster in space. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

It's a car that was turned into a spacecraft… That's the notable thing about it. — JFG 05:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect. It is an unmodified car, launched into space. BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:58, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

…"launched into space" makes it a spacecraft, albeit admittedly a very crude one. — JFG 06:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Just like a hammer tossed into the ocean becomes a "crude" submarine? :-) BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:17, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Whatever its design or function, it is an artificial satellite now → Roadster satellite? BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:37, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

And my grandma on her wheelchair is a crude automobile. — JFG 06:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

LOL! -BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - Hasn't JPL Horizons or whoever given it an official designation yet, like 2018/TESLA? We could make that the article title. I know it doesn't exactly meet WP:COMMONNAME standards but there is no real common name at the moment, and several different redirects could be made to point here. Just a thought. nagualdesign 05:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the COSPAR database lists this object as "TESLA ROADSTER" (look for International Designator 2018-017A at Celestrak), and the JPL Horizons database lists it as "SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft)" and "Tesla Roadster (AKA: Starman, 2018-017A)". — JFG 05:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@JFG, At the top of the JPL Horizons object data page it says "Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)" The "Tesla Roadster (AKA: Starman, 2018-017A)" bit is listing alternative designations. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Right, so we have JPL calling this object alternatively "SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft)", "Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)" and "Tesla Roadster (AKA: Starman, 2018-017A)". Besides, the concise registered name for designator 2018-017A is "Tesla Roadster", so that reinforces the move to Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). — JFG 05:57, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Opposed Nobody (to speak of) calls it a spacecraft, per WP:COMMONNAME. What our sources do almost all call it is a "publicity stunt". Tesla Roadster in space (publicity stunt) would best comply with the "Use commonly recognizable names" policy, but calling it a spacecraft would be even further from that. If nobody wants "publicity stunt" in the title then I support the next best thing, BatteryIncluded's suggestion Tesla Roadster in space. Elon Musk sees his name repeated enough at it is. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Are NASA and JPL "nobody"? — JFG 06:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Saying that "Tesla Roadster in space (publicity stunt)" is a WP:COMMONNAME makes a mockery of that guideline. Nobody would use this phrase as a title to refer to it. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:44, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support; @nagualdesign and Dennis Bratland Actually, NASA JPL refers to it as "Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)" in the Horizon database.(Note: you need to change the "target Body" by searching for 'roadster', then generate it) Other sources have caught on to this as well and also refer to it as a spacecraft. Boilerplate payloads are often referred to as "spacecraft" (see our article on the topic). If NASA decided to call it a spacecraft, that is good enough for me. However, "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" probably is the WP:COMMONNAME, excess emphasis or not. My issue with the current title is that it is not specific enough, Musk definitely owns other Tesla roadsters, although none is likely to ever be this notable (unless he launches one into the sun on the BFR). We could go for "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)", but probably fails WP:CONCISE. Tesla Roadster in space and other proposed titles in the previous discussion section are made up (not used as a title by anyone) and don't improve on the current title in any way. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:42, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually, I've just done a search of JPL Horizons and they're calling it SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft). I'm not sure whether that's an official designation. nagualdesign 05:43, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

​Generate the object data page to see the updated title. Although "SpaceX Roadster" is probably a concise and conflict free way to end this discussion without pulling all our hair out. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:47, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, you're right, it does change to Tesla Roadster (spacecraft) when you click on Generate Ephemeris. We should probably go with whichever is the official designation, but if it's a choice of the two I prefer SpaceX, since it's more unambiguous. nagualdesign 05:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm OK with "SpaceX Roadster". Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:50, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

That's a good point about what's likely coming. Tesla space ad (2018) might be wise, to distinguish it from future publicity stunts. If official bureaucratic documents determined article titles, then Bill Clinton would be named William Jefferson Clinton. What is consensus on what this thing is? A car? A spaceship? Art? Space Junk? Consensus is that it is a piece of media, a marketing device, a publicity stunt. It's a way of selling Tesla cars and of making a statement about Musk's brand. History will remember it as setting a great precedent in the field of marketing, not spaceflight. The Falcon Heavy itself is a whole other thing. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Opposed - not a spacecraft, or at least known as one. I would support Tesla Roadster in space. -- GreenC 05:55, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose The current title is stellar. Consistent with other famously-owned objects like Einstein's Blackboard. Besides, its not a spacecraft, its a payload. -- Netoholic @ 06:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Car is not a spacecraft. WolreChris (talk) 12:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). Per WP:SPACENAME, (spacecraft) is the preferred disambiguator for objects not in geocentric orbit. Also, Elon Musk has (had?) two roadsters, this cherry red one (S/N 686) and a much earlier first-generation black one (S/N 4). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support per NASA's HORIZONS database calling it a spacecraft and because the current title is not neutral enough. --Frmorrison (talk) 17:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support per HORIZONS, but would prefer "SpaceX Roadster" also per HORIZONS. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:44, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment User:Ahecht is noting WP:SPACENAME as a guideline. Well, Misplaced Pages's spaceflight naming guidelines (and likely JPL's) were written before a private company was able to launch non-spacecraft loads to space. We don't have to bend reality to our guidelines, but adapt the guidelines to the technological developments. Even Musk calls the car in space "an absurdity", so Misplaced Pages calling it a "spacecraft" is absolutely not acceptable. It is a matter of intellectual honesty and technological accuracy. I'll support the current title, or any other reasonable title not using that word. BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Strong oppose The car is not the spacecraft, it is ON the spacecraft. Support current title unless another of Elon's Tesla Roadsters becomes notable._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 21:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Interesting perspective, since it has indeed been confirmed that the car remained attached to the second stage. Now, do you consider the second stage itself a spacecraft? It has propulsion, attitude control, instrumentation and telemetry, much more of a spacecraft than the raw car. Views from the car-mounted cameras were surely transmitted to Earth by the second stage, and they were "stsged" to show a slowly-rotating car with Earth in the background thanks to the second stage's attitude control system. I'd say that the combo "Roadster + second stage" is a spacecraft, and NASA / JPL / COSPAR have named it as such. — JFG 23:02, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I concur. The whole shebang constitutes a spacecraft. We ought to be careful not to imply that the car itself is any sort of spacecraft or probe though. nagualdesign 23:31, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose it's misleading; the article refers to a specific individual vehicle, but that disambiguation term makes it seem like a brand/class of spacecraft. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Really? We have hundreds of articles named "Foobar (spacecraft)", and very few of them refer to spacecraft classes. Curious about what makes you perceive it this way. — JFG 03:27, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - The car itself is not a spacecraft. nagualdesign 03:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose it is not a spacecraft. Felicia (talk) 18:32, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - The Project Echo satellite was just a mylar balloon. I think it's prigish to be so insistent on such a fine point as to what is and isn't a "spacecraft". HOWEVER, some people are really really really opposed to saying "spacecraft" here. That makes it impossible in all practically to call it that in the title. To me, it's got cameras on it and it sent pictures back, so it's fine to call it "spacecraft". But it's politically impossible, so here in WP that's makes it not fine (which is fine :-) ). 98.216.245.29 (talk) 18:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Alternatives

"SpaceX Roadster"

Okay, sorry to change course, but who'd like to rename the article to SpaceX Roadster? NASA/JPL use the designations SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft) and Tesla Roadster (spacecraft), but whether it's actually a spacecraft is debatable. Drop the (spacecraft) and you're left with SpaceX Roadster or Tesla Roadster, and the latter is obviously unusable here.

• Support - nagualdesign 05:57, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support Looking at commonname concerns, SpaceX Roadster gets about 68000 hits, while "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" gets 132000. Given there seems to be broad agreement that the current title isn't working (regardless that it might be the commonname), "SpaceX Roadster" probably is pretty close to the next best commonname anyway. On top of that it is WP:CONCISE, WP:PRECISE, and probably the most likely to not result in a massive kerfuffle in this discussion. — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:59, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose – Such a title is not as informative to our readers. Does SpaceX now produce cars? Is a new rocket called the "Roadster"? No clue about what this object actually is (a 2008 Tesla Roadster) and why it is notable (as a demo spacecraft). — JFG 06:05, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Such things are explained in the article. There's no need to have a long-winded title, and you can create as many redirects as you wish. The point is for readers to be able to find the article easily enough, and to know they're in the right place when they get here. If SpaceX did make roadsters it would be confusing, but they don't. nagualdesign 06:11, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Good point. It suggests a product by SpaceX. BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:09, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Someone looking for information about this thing wouldn't get here and then think, "Huh? SpaceX make cars now?!" nagualdesign 06:11, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - mainstream sources other than the NASA database don't use this. -- Netoholic @ 06:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, other than NASA, the people who give these things their official titles. nagualdesign 06:16, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

NASA/JPL also call it a spacecraft. — JFG 06:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd be okay calling it SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft), following NASA/JPL's lead, but we can drop the (spacecraft) part if that's a bone of contention. nagualdesign 06:23, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support. -BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support, as mentioned above. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - no evidence the Roadster belongs to SpaceX and not Elon Musk personally. Also gives appearance of a product called the SpaceX Roadster. Ambiguities of a literal interpretation will lead to future debates over title. -- GreenC 05:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

"Tesla Roadster in space"

Another alternative: Tesla Roadster in space or Roadster in space

• Support - BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose not a WP:COMMONNAME for the subject at all. For comparison, "Tesla Roadster in space" also gets 63000 hits (similar to "SpaceX Roadster"). However, looking at the first couple pages of google news, these seem to be almost exclusively the result of natural usage as part of a sentence, rather than as a title. In short, not a WP:COMMONNAME title compared to the others. "Roadster in space" is similar. These titles also sound awkward, like a 50s sci-fi cartoon advertisement: "The AMAAAAAAAAZING Tesla Roadster. IN SPACE!" — Insertcleverphrasehere 06:04, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - mainstream sources don't use this. -- Netoholic @ 06:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

There is no name commonly used by mainstream sources. -- GreenC 06:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

The event does not have a name, THAT is the reason for this conversation. We are looking for a title. Roadster in space is a very accurate and descriptive title. BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:57, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@GreenC, Based on the liked search results above, the commonname is actually probably "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster", it just isn't very WP:PRECISE. — Insertcleverphrasehere 06:18, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. And Tesla Roadster in space sounds more like a sentence fragment than an article title to me. nagualdesign 06:21, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I've seen truly long titles, but this one is 3 words: Roadster in space. BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:28, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

That's a little more titular (giggles) but not particularly precise. nagualdesign 06:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Not precise? How many Roadsters are there in space that now we have to differentiate them?  :-) BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:42, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Fair point. Although there are 3 Lunar Roving Vehicles that are open-top two-seaters. nagualdesign 06:48, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

If that's the case, why not err with 4 words (not bad) than miss common usage. -- GreenC

WP:TOOSOON then. -- Netoholic @ 06:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

That policy doesn't really have any relevance in this discussion. I'm a bit confused. — Insertcleverphrasehere 06:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support – Passable as a descriptive title. — JFG 06:19, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Seems like a good compromise (given that we're never going to be able to agree about whether it should be classified as a spacecraft) and certainly better than the current title Rosbif73 (talk) 08:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Sounds like the title of a B-movie, and doesn't follow WP:SPACENAME. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's spaceflight naming guidelines WP:SPACENAME (and likely JPL's) were written before a private company was able to launch non-spacecraft loads to space. We don't have to bend reality to our guidelines, but adapt the guidelines to the technological developments. Even Musk calls the car in space "an absurdity", so Misplaced Pages calling it a "spacecraft" is absolutely not acceptable. It is a matter of intellectual honesty and technological accuracy. I'll support the current title, or any other reasonable title not using that word. -BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:54, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - I'm not keen on either of those suggestions. Sorry. nagualdesign 03:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Tesla Roadster (Falcon Heavy payload)

A bit boring perhaps, but if we can't agree on any other disambiguator, it will do. — Insertcleverphrasehere 10:21, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Insertcleverphrasehere, Tesla Roadster (payload) is all what is required for disambiguation, or perhaps Tesla Roadster (space payload) to help readers know that they have arrived at the correct place. —Sladen (talk) 11:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@Sladen, I disagree. To a layperson (payload) alone is not a clear enough term as it is a reasonably technical one (i.e. not WP:PRECISE enough). "(Falcon Heavy payload)" is WP:PRECISE if not particularly WP:CONCISE. I'd prefer other titles such as "SpaceX Roadster", but this is probably better than the current title on the precision scale, and about the same on the concise scale. — Insertcleverphrasehere 02:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Insertcleverphrasehere, indeed, hence why the sentence continues, concluding with the more practical suggestion of Tesla Roadster (space payload). —Sladen (talk) 03:06, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

​Not a big fan of 'space' in disambiguators, as it is a word with multiple other common meanings. Perhaps "(spaceflight payload)" but then we are not concise at all anyway and we might as well just go with "(spaceflight)" at that point. — Insertcleverphrasehere 03:10, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

A slight tweak: Tesla Roadster (satellite). Although it is not a spacecraft, it is now an artificial satellite. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:36, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:SPACENAME, "satellite" only refers to object in geocentric orbit. The Roasder is in heliocentric orbit. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 14:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

BatteryIncluded, see above. "Tesla Roadster (satellite)" was already tested and comments concluded use of "satellite" was likely to be confusing. —Sladen (talk) 14:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

So, if it's heliocentric, it's a space probe... I'm happy with the current title. It's well known that the Tesla launched was Elon's personal Tesla. In fact, I'd say that's part of the notability. If it had been less personal, the headline would have been less catchy. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 16:09, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• Weak Support it's not great, but it will do if nothing else gets support. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Weak support - Says exactly what it is, if a little verbose. nagualdesign 03:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - not concise, longer than current. Falcon Heavy payload isn't good for common recognition. -- GreenC 05:09, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Strong support - Says exactly what it is. Straightforward, dry, and encyclopdedic is righteous and outta-sighteous! I'd say something more like "Tesla Roadster (Falcon Heavy dummy payload)", but whatever, almost anything's better than the current "Mr. Wonderful's Wonderful Car", which is a lotta fanboy claptrap.  :-) 98.216.245.29 (talk) 19:10, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I read GreenC's comment that "Falcon Heavy" isn't commonly known and I agree. That can be worked on.
Tesla Roadster (test rocket payload)?
Tesla Roadster (rocket payload)?
Tesla Roadster (test rocket dummy payload)?
Tesla Roadster (rocket dummy payload)?
98.216.245.29 (talk) 19:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Still a reductionist focus on what the thing is made up of rather than what it is, and why we have an article about this particular piece of dead weight, and not all the other boilerplate that was shot into space, and forgotten. Anything without Elon Musk in the title is an improvement, but none of the variations of Tesla Roadster ( * payload) are any better or worse than any other. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Tesla Roadster (space)

Tesla Roadster (boilerplate)

Orbital Tesla Roadster

Why not throw in one more alternative title? Let's try Orbital Tesla Roadster ftw. Three words, not a spacecraft, it's in orbit, matches JPL designation, no Musk cult… What's not to like? — JFG 02:47, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Pinging every commenter so far. @Ahecht, BatteryIncluded, Bellezzasolo, Dennis Bratland, Fcrary, Frmorrison, GreenC, Insertcleverphrasehere, Nagualdesig, Netoholic, Power~enwiki, Rosbif73, SarekOfVulcan, Sladen, WolreChris, and Zxcvbnmn: How do you like this one? — JFG 02:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose based complete lack of WP:COMMONNAME results for this wording. Might be worth revisiting if nothing else works, but I think we can find a compromise with one of the parenthetical disambiguators. Also "Orbital" to a layperson would probably imply 'in earth orbit'. — Insertcleverphrasehere 02:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Any sourcing here? I get a total of 3 Google results for this term with quotes. Orbital seems a strange word to use to describe something that isn't orbiting anything in particular (it will orbit the sun, but that's unavoidable). power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
  • for what it's worth, a merge with Falcon Heavy test flight avoids all these problems, but I doubt there's consensus for that at this time power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

It certainly would! nagualdesign 03:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

No sourcing, this is simply a descriptive title, in an effort to find something consensual and precise enough. WP:ATDAB policy says: 4. Descriptive title: where there is no acceptable set name for a topic, such that a title of our own conception is necessary, more latitude is allowed to form descriptive and unique titles. Since we can't find an agreement on policy options #1 to #3 (natural, comma or parenthetical disambiguation), and there is not much love for the current title either, perhaps getting creative with policy option #4 would help. — JFG 03:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@JFG, I don't think we should quite give up on the idea of a possible natural dab (SpaceX Roadster) or parenthetical dab (quite a few good options, some of which have not been proposed yet). — Insertcleverphrasehere 03:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support - Says what it is. Sounds a bit like a type of car though. nagualdesig 03:27, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I can't find any reliable reference to that name. I find a reference to it being "SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft) (Tesla)", on the Horizons catalogue. But I don't feel that title is in any way descriptive. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 03:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Not looking for a name that does not exist, but a title. BatteryIncluded (talk) 04:05, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support - BatteryIncluded (talk) 04:05, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment – Note that all other name combinations can and should redirect to the article, to assist readers searching for "Elon Musk's midnight cherry Tesla Roadster", "A red car for a red planet", the "car in space" or even "Starman, the crash-test dummy in a spacesuit". — JFG 04:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - without saying what it's orbiting a natural assumption is earth by default, it opens ambiguity for un-informed readers. Seems better to use parenthetical dab over natural phrasing. -- GreenC 05:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Almost everyone will read orbital as "in Earth orbit", so you'll have to walk that back immediately and over-explain what it is orbiting. also, reductionist. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Tesla Roadster (spaceflight)

• Support. Tesla Roadster (spaceflight). If not spacecraft or boilerplate, then spaceflight, really. 185.146.122.109 (talk) 04:34, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Support I was going to wait a bit to propose this, as this discussion is already highly fragmented, but now it is here. Obvious improvement over most (all?) other parenthetical dabs. Compliant as a parenthetical disambiguator under: the subject or context to which the topic applies, as in Union (set theory), Inflation (cosmology); --per WP:NCDAB. It sounds good, it is non-controversial (clearly this is a spaceflight related topic), it is WP:PRECISE, it is WP:CONCISE, and "Tesla Roadster" is a clear WP:COMMONNAME for this topic (with adequate disambiguation to separate it from the car model). I think this is a good middle-ground among other proposals and has a good chance of making everyone happy, please consider it! — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:01, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Pings: @Ahecht, BatteryIncluded, Bellezzasolo, Dennis Bratland, Fcrary, Frmorrison, GreenC, Nagualdesig, Netoholic, Power~enwiki, Rosbif73, SarekOfVulcan, Sladen, WolreChris, Zxcvbnmn, and JFG: — Insertcleverphrasehere 05:04, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Weak Support per User:Insertcleverphrasehere. I can still live with the current Musk title, which actually is shorter (26 char) than this proposal (28 char), though has fewer words and isn't a phrase to its advantage. -- GreenC 05:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Neutral I can live with this title, although I dare say Elon will be launching his (next gen) roadster to Mars when he finally despairs of this planet and emigrates... but Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster is just as ambiguous in that regard. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 06:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment, think everyone is worn down. This is one of the first proposals that has not immediately attracted lots of opposes— 185.146.122.109/Insertcleverphrasehere/GreenC, would you (collectively) be willing to put together a well-prepared joint proposal for a rename in a couple of weeks? Ideally this should clearly make the case vs. the status quo, and with all the information needed to evaluate the proposal together in a one place (eg. examples of usage, etc)? —Sladen (talk) 11:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I'll put something together at some point. I was not actually intending to bring this option up as a separate proposal, as I could see that people were flagging. Agreed that the discussion has worn itself out at this point. I don't mind revisiting this one later if the discussion gets closed. The current title isn't in dire need of being changed immediately and there is WP:NODEADLINE. — Insertcleverphrasehere 11:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support not a standard disambiguator, but not too objectionable, and better than the current title (which just as easily could refer to Musk's black first-off-the-assembly-line roadster). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:41, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support - The car was launched into a spaceflight, but it is not called a spacecraft. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:48, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Must... pull... teeth... nagualdesign 16:44, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Just confusing. Is it a space flight? The flight of the Roadster? Or is Tesla Roadster a spaceflight term? Like boilerplate (spaceflight)? And always with the reductionism. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:17, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose It's a generic Tesla Roadster, and Misplaced Pages:COMMONNAME. - ZLEA _Talk\ 14:31, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Motion to close RM

This seems to be going in too many directions, and now participants are being pinged every few hours to take a look at every new idea. This is essentially a brainstorming session, which I encourage, but needs to happen outside of a RM move discussion. Let's try this again in a couple weeks when hopefully the field of choices can at least be narrowed down. -- Netoholic @ 05:45, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Agree. I suspect the reason the article title is so contentious is that the justification for even having a separate article from Falcon Heavy test flight is shaky and controversial. One of the ways you can be sure there is a need for an article to exist is that the title is obvious to almost everyone. I suspect in a few weeks a merge discussion will happen again, and it will have a clear consensus, unlike any potential RM. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree in principle, as the original topic proposed has clearly resulted in No Consensus. I also apologise for sending out the second mass ping if I annoyed you, but the genie is out of the bottle now. Leaving it open might result in more people coming over from WP:RM to join the "brainstorming session" though, and there are still a couple of promising candidates open for discussion, so I'd suggest leaving it open at least for another half day or so for those that have been pinged (for better or worse) to have their say if they want to. — Insertcleverphrasehere 06:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Making progress. Good discussions. -- GreenC 06:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Sounds sensible to have a moratorium on opening move/merge requests for fortnight. Perhaps useful to close/withdraw all of the requests, dedicate that Talk page space to discussing content, and from those edits see if an obvious alternative/better/acceptable title appears in that time (ie. title follows content). Then it would be good to see a multi-editor proposal at the beginning of April. —Sladen (talk) 10:41, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Have removed the template from the top of the main page Special:Diff/825432263. Feel free to revert, and/or restore with update to one of the (several) later proposals. —Sladen (talk) 10:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

It's only been 24 hours… The RM has clarified a lot of positions, and structured alternative titles better than a free-flow discussion. Now that the "regulars" have spoken and are tired, the request should remain active for the normal 7 days, so that less-involved Wikipedians can read the arguments and have their say. I will restore the notice, whose purpose it is precisely to attract lay readers to the discussion. Remember that the encyclopedia is ultimately written for them. — JFG 11:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

JFG, Thank you! —Sladen (talk) 11:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, the RMCD bot has restored the notice already. Let it run its course. — JFG 11:27, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Indeed! :) —Sladen (talk) 11:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

organic

Re: "Radiation will eventually break down organic material and anything with carbon–carbon bonds". Is this not redundant; isn't anything with C-C bonds organic? -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 17:23, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I guess. I think it will be more useful if we use parenthesis: "Radiation will eventually break down organic material (anything with carbon–carbon bonds)". Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Given the everyday word associations with organic food and compost, a slightly longer explanation (as per the current) is probably preferable. This helps keep the text accessible to all. —Sladen (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Right, Organic matter ≠ organic compound. We just change it to organic compound. BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:46, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

The first version of this was "Organic material, i.e. any material with carbon–carbon bonds, including carbon fiber parts, will eventually break apart due to radiation." A later edit streamlined it to, "Radiation will eventually break down organic material, anything with carbon–carbon bonds, such as carbon fiber parts." Inserting the 'and' changes it from an implied "that is", which is grammatical and typical of normal speech, to a separate item, with a totally different meaning. Someone assumed it was a comma splice or an omitted conjunction in a list of items, instead of checking the sources to see if the editor knew what they meant. Copyeditors do this all the time: they have a preconceived notion about the structure of a sentence and they change the meaning by forcing it into that structure. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Coma or no coma, organic matter ≠ organic compound. BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:02, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

CBS 60 Minutes s46e27

Based on the preview clip at , Musk is seen driving the Roadster during Episode season 46 episode 27 of CBS 60 Minutes "Fast Cars and Rocket Ships", broadcast on 30 March 2014. Is anyone with access to a copy able to watch the full episode and see if there is any usable citation material/quotes specifically about the car. —Sladen (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

And appears to be Musk driving his other one, the (very early) Roadster (Production 1). —Sladen (talk) 03:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

dummy payload

This edit Special:Diff/825492769 removed the word "car" from the opening sentence of the WP:LEAD, and moved up "dummy payload"→"dummy payload, or 'boilerplate'" (scare quotes included), placing it in the very first sentence. —Sladen (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

You don't ask a question here, but I'll infer what you mean. WP:OBVIOUS would have us make sure that Tesla Roadster (2008) tell us immediately what it is: it is an electric car, or specifically a BEV sports car. This article is not Tesla Roadster (2008) and it is not of the highest priority to say what a Tesla Roadster is. This article is about a car in space. Per WP:OBVIOUS, the "it" is this: they shot a Tesla Roadster into into space. Those who don't have the slightest clue what a Tesla Roadster is are only held in suspense until the second sentence, when we reveal the obvious, it is an electric car.

The other very critical fact, one that much of the public probably has never heard of, is the idea of dummy payloads, boilerplate. It's pretty critical to explain that something had to be shot into space. So that's why the facts are revealed in that order.

Oh, also, scare quotes are double quotation marks -- you're attributing, or ironically attributing, the words to others. Single quotes used this way merely highlight the introduction of a specialist term. See . It's true there is controversy over quotation marks, and UK English isn't quite the same, but this article is in US English, naturally, and even if a reader interprets 'boilerplate' as scare quotes, it doesn't change the actual meaning very much. Boilerplate is the thing "they" (rocket scientists ) call it, which is the important part. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

NPOV in Objectives section

The Objectives section has been used as the exclusive province of SpaceX/Musk to make their claims about why they used a car for this. Normally this is undisputed: with a book or movie or other artwork, what it is is usually agreed. Critical response as to whether it's good or bad, or analysis of what it means is kept to the bottom of the article, after the work itself is simply described. A consumer product is usually presented the same way: describe what it is, then describe what the reaction was, how well it sold and the reviews. The Tesla Model X exists because Tesla wanted to enter the SUV market, because they make and sell cars. An exceptional case would be a real-life The Producers (1967 film) story: they produce a play, but the intent is not the same as any other play, not the stated intent. The real purpose is to lose money and keep the investors money.

The intention behind using a car as a dummy payload is disputed by the majority of reliable sources. That means this is not the same kind of article as a movie article or a car model article. SpaceX says they did it for one reason, and there is overwhelming evidence that industry experts and reliable media don't believe them. They aren't lying; it's not a scam, like The Producers or any kind of fake product. The media don't fault SpaceX and Musk for saying it's "just for fun", but saying that is still bullshit in the sense that it's rhetoric meant to enhance the real goal, which is advertising and public relations. It's not a bad thing: companies all do this and it's respectable. Ford and GM run cars in NASCAR to promote their brands, even though the entire thing is essentially bullshit too: the race cars are not even a little bit similar to the consumer products, but nobody blames them because that's not the point. It isn't pejorative to point out what experts say is the real intent behind shooting a car and not some concrete into space, any more than it's pejorative to say that car companies sponsor racing because they want to sell more cars. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what precisely is the proposed edit that might improve this? —Sladen (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

If the problem is that the Objectives section contains nothing but the official company line, then the solution is for it to not be a section devoted to the only the company's POV, excluding all others. Specifically the section asserts their claimed intentions, and that should be followed directly by the most significant counter-claims as to what their real intentions are. Criticisms about crass displays of wealth, space junk, or lost opportunities for astronomy are tangential, since they don't directly contradict the official claims, and they have far less weight than the simple view that it's a marketing move.

An alternative way to accomplish the same thing would be to move the claims than it's just for fun down to the section that has the counterclaims. In place of Objectives, just describe why test rockets have dummy payloads, summarizing boilerplate (spaceflight) per the summary style guidelines. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:13, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what exact proposed wording might help achieve the desired outcome? —Sladen (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

The wording you see in the edit history? You've seen the edits, right? Are you under the impression that NPOV issues can't be discussed unless a precise text is proposed? That's not the case, and it's usually counterproductive because it turns into quibbling over exact wording instead of a discussion of the real point. The question is whether or not any direct counterpoint to the company's claims shall be allowed. The exact wording is left to editorial discretion, and will inevitably be changed bit by bit every day anyway. It's a waste of effort to find precise words that everyone likes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, yes, the article has many edits. Pin-pointing which particular edit/wording would help discussion. —Sladen (talk) 20:36, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Ironically this gives undue legitimacy and undue weight to the minor points of view. The idea that it's an "art object", or that it's space junk, are not significant enough to be in the lead, and it's misleading to put them on equal footing with the much more significant coverage regarding marketing and advertising. The bit about reaadymade art comes from one blogger. The judgement that it's a marketing job cites a dozen sources, not merely The Verge or TechCrunch, but the NYT, Bloomberg, AdAge, AdWeek, The Economist, the BBC, Scientific Ameriacan, etc. There's a vast difference in seriousness between the major media and serous car and aerospace injustry watchers, and the blogosphere of minor web media like HuffPo or Wired. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what proposed sequence of words might work better? —Sladen (talk) 20:34, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Please stop the hectoring. It's just obnoxious, and point|y. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:36, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, yes, it is in the hope of pin-pointing precisely what is being suggested, so that discussion can begin to take place. —Sladen (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I could find other sources for the Reception section so it's not so heavily weighted to this one marketing topic as currently, but then the reception section is too long and looks like a battlefield. The entire paragraph you added "Musk's public demonstrations.." should go because it's largely unsalvageable NPOV/OR text and the sources repeat what is already in the first paragraph - we get the point and don't need to be bludgeoned with repetition and sources. -- GreenC 20:47, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

"We don't need to be bludgeoned"? Please read WP:WEIGHT again, if you haven't done so recently. The policy repeats five times the importance of sources in gauging what is a widely agreed consensus, and what is a minor point of view, and what is fringe. The difference in both quantity and quality between basically every responsible and serious source, and one blogger over at the Verge, is exactly what the policy wants us to focus on. As far as original research, are you saying you did in fact read each of the cited sources and find no evidence at all for the wording? "offbeat approach", "visionary marketer ", "deliberate control of both the timing and the content of stunts" etc. We can walk through the sources one by one if you're seriusly claiming that these things are not what the sources said, but it seems like a waste of time. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

The marketing is given clear place of importance as the first item mentioned, and it needs to balance the need to summarize the section. The language of the previous was overtly opinionated. -- GreenC 05:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I've suggested this before, but what about, "Others have noted the publicity value of launching the Tesla, and suggested that this may be an unstated motive for this choice of a dummy payload." That's completely true (although we'd have to add references), and does not contain any judgmental language. Fcrary (talk) 20:59, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Definitely, any POVs outside the company would be less biased, but this still sounds very judgemental. Phrases like "unstated motive" have a much more sinister tone than just saying they "disregarded" the stream public messages from Musk on this topic. Saying "others" or "some" brings back the same weasel problem. "Industry observers" refers to the business press, major marketing publications, writers who cover the auto and aerospace industries, and the leading science publications. As opposed to The Verge or TechCrunch, minor web media known to be driven by clicks. One of the ways we avoid elevating low-value points of view (e.g. space junk, kessler events) is by not describing them on equal footing with major sources: "some say it's a marketing, others say it's found object art, and others say it's space junk that will destroy everything in orbit". "Some, and some and others" are vague and don't account for proportions, per WP:VALID. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:15, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Now do you see why people were asking about the exact phrasing your suggested additions? "Unstated motive" may imply something I didn't intend. Fine. But "disregarded the stream messages from Musk" isn't much better since it implies his statements are just propaganda. (Correct or not, that wouldn't be a neutral point of view.) "Industrial observers" would be fine, but only if you can reference an industrial observer. A story in Aviation Week would be an acceptable one, if you can find one that's specific on this detail.Fcrary (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

The intention behind using a car as a dummy payload is disputed by the majority of reliable sources. Surely the only people qualified to comment on their own intentions are primary sources? nagualdesign 21:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, its very clear that there is a dedicated group of editors who have enormous faith that Elon Musk's every word must be taken at face value. Numerous high-quality sources say it's not that simple. Most of the sources -- not tabloids but the serious press -- say there is a direct connection between this media circus and they much less ballyhooed announcement on the very same day of Tesla's record-shattering $675.4 million quarterly loss. We're not even talking about mentioning that aspect.

So you do feel that if Musk says that's why he did it, his saying it makes it a fact? And you feel that anyone who says there were other reasons is disparaging him, rather than merely noting the usual way that public relations works? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

{{U|Dennis Bratland}}, sounds reasonable to add the concrete suggestion of noting the launch was just before the Tesla quarterly results. Just need some suggested wording and cites to back it up. —Sladen (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2018 (UTC) Was also two days before publication of Jeremy Clarkson's review of the Tesla Model X.

That is WP:SYNTH (WP:OR) unless there is a source specifically drawing attention to these two things for some reason. -- GreenC 21:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Rushe, Dominic (7 February 2018). "Elon Musk's Tesla announces biggest quarterly loss ever". The Guardian. tech billionaire Elon Musk sent one of his Tesla electric cars into space yesterday, a day before the company that built it announced its biggest ever quarterly loss. Just needs some suggested accompanying wording, which hopefully the proposer can suggest. —Sladen (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Unless a source draws attention to these two things??? I keep talking about being guided by sources and I keep getting the impression that you are not actually reading them. Because we don't have "a" source connecting these two things. We have dozens. Did you seriously not read any of the articles I cited? You have deleted content from this article at least a half dozen times, and the presumption we all make is that you actually clicked on the links and read the sources before you deleted anything. Is that true?

And outside that, right here on the talk page, two days ago I provided you with an Elon Musk quote that directly connects the Tesla quarterly report with this publicity stunt: "If we can send a Roadster to the asteroid belt, we can probably solve Model 3 production." Google says this quote has appeared in some 800+ news articles, and over 5,000 web hits. Here is the New York Times coverage.

Musk himself is not shy at all about admitting that this thing is an important public relations event, to boost both the image of SpaceX and Tesla, because he knows he isn't deceiving anyone; he's simply playing along as his fans expect. This article sounds like it was written by Batman fans who really believe Christian Bale is Batman. It's not disparaging an actor to point out what a good job he's doing at his role.

I'm not even asking to talk about Tesla's $771 million loss reported the day after the launch (what I just said above wasn't quite accurate). The paramount thing is to be responsive to sources. Treating the Verge and the NYT as equally serious is not neutral, and treating the company line as literally the truth is not neutral. Can we agree to carefully read the sources, and write accordingly? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:09, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

So you do feel that if Musk says that's why he did it, his saying it makes it a fact? And you feel that anyone who says there were other reasons is disparaging him, rather than merely noting the usual way that public relations works? No, I'm not saying that that makes it fact. I'm simply saying that the only person/people qualified to comment on their own intentions are primary sources. If a secondary source begs to differ then we can present that as their opinion but they're not mind readers.

At the risk of sounding like I'm on the Tesla/SpaceX payroll, I really don't think that this article is the place to talk about Tesla's quarterly losses. nagualdesign 22:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

So when a terrorist says "I'm not a terrorist, I'm a freedom fighter" or "I'm an artist" or "God told me to do it", nobody else is qualified to say "No, you're a terrorist"? There are many Featured Articles that contradict the stated motives of people with other, more reliable sources. I can walk you through the examples if you don't believe me. I agree we can leave out the quarterly losses, but that doesn't mean we have to disregard what the world is saying. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

That's a pretty flimsy straw man, Dennis, but to use your example, if a terrorist says he planted a bomb in the name of Allah then I think we can report that, yes. Or if a self-styled 'freedom fighter' commits atrocities and other people say it was the product of a warped mind then we can say what they think too. What we don't do is present such critics as omniscient. Simply put, for the third time, the only people qualified to comment on their own intentions are primary sources. Intent being an internal property of the mind of the intender. If it was a boardroom decision and we have sources that were in on the meetings then we could present that as such, but we don't. We just have the opinions of critics. Am I talking in a foreign language here? nagualdesign 22:23, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

"...a dedicated group of editors who have enormous faith that Elon Musk's every word must be taken at face value..." I can't speak for other editors, but no. I think neutral point of view means that, regardless of what I, personally, believe, Mr. Musk's statement about his own motives should be reported. And reported without spin. That way the readers can decide for themselves.Fcrary (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

That's not what the NPOV policy says. WP:ABOUTSELF item #1 "the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;" and #4: "there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity". The official explanation from SpaceX is self-serving, and copious sources doubt it is quite the whole truth. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Mr. Musk's statement about his own motives should be reported. And reported without spin. That way the readers can decide for themselves. I concur. And no, I don't have enormous faith that Elon Musk's every word must be taken at face value. nagualdesign 22:29, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis, The article is not going to focus on the marketing value for Tesla Inc. as the only reaction; it is one of many perspectives and it does not merit deleting the others listed. Yes, the car has a marketing value, and that is already mentioned, but that is not going to hijack the bulk of the article, nor minimize the mechanical function (dummy weight) the car played for this launcher test. Musk's stated strategy is to not pay for marketing, it has always been so for his companies, and this is not the place to exalt/vilify his corporate management choices. BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

To be clear, what I meant is that we should write something along the lines of, "Musk says his intention was . wrote , while wrote ." In other words, we just report what various people have said, without further comment or qualification. The insinuation that anyone bar Musk can possibly know his true motives is not very encyclopedic, but if someone said, "The reason he did it is because..." then we report that verbatim. Who is right or wrong is not our place to comment on. To be honest, all this talking in the abstract is rather pointless. It would be better to get some actual proposed wording if people want to debate it. nagualdesign 02:22, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Even if you apply the obtuse definition of 'authenticity' as meaning nothing more than "Was Musk's Twitter account spoofed?", and do not even consider whether we have any responsibility to ask whether or not the self-published claims were entirely truthful, it is still certainly an extraordinary claim, and it's clearly self-serving.

Consider:

1. Near universal agreement among high quality (non-clickbait) media sources that the effect was to help sell Tesla cars
2. And that it distracted investors from Tesla's dire financial situation
3. And that it is highly improbable that the launch would happen within 24 hours of Tesla's quarterly report by mere chance
4. And that reliable sources agree this is an unprecedented new form of marketing and advertising
5. And reliable sources tell us that Musk carefully timed the announcement of his previous use of a wheel of cheese as ballast to happen soon after the Dragon rocket launch, but not too soon; he made sure the first news cycle had run and headlines covered only the launch
6. And Musk himself spoke on a conference call to investors and made a direct comparison between "our" (i.e. Tesla and SpaceX, two ostensibly different companies) to shoot a car all the way almost all the away to the asteroid belt

It is extraordinary to take at face value the supposition that it is not an intentional marketing move or publicity stunt, based on zero evidence other than self-published sources. None of the self-published sources even deny or contradict the near-universal consensus. The only reason this consensus is possibly in doubt is because the self-published from SpaceX sources did not explicitly confirm that it was done for marketing. It is entirely plausible that using a car is both "fun" and "silly" and also a savvy marketing stunt. Why can't it be both? The self-published sources affirm only the first part; the second part is partly suggested by Musk's words to investors, and is the consensus of our best sources.

It doesn't serve the self-interest of Musk, Tesla, or SpaceX to say out loud that "it was all a publicity stunt". They would never lie about it, and they don't need to. It's merely in their best interest not to confirm the fact. Thus it is both extraordinary and self-serving to let the company's self-published claims be recited at face value as if they are undisputed facts. The policy WP:ABOUTSELF requires that the claimed reasons for using a car be put in context, not left as a soapbox for SpaceX's official company line alone, excluding other points of view.

Can anyone tell me how many reliable sources have said "No, the mainstream media got this all wrong! They're all wrong for calling it intentional marketing and promotion. BBC, The Economist, NYT, WAPO, AP, SciAm, AdAge, AdWeek all wrong. All of them. It's just a bit of whimsical fun and the timing is totally accidental. They shot a car in space only because Elon Musk is a cool guy who DNGAF. No other motives! Perish the thought!" Can you cite anyone saying that? A small cadre of 3-4 Misplaced Pages editors are saying that, yes. But that's original research and soapboxing. If you could cite any sources who did say, then you wouldn't have whole swaths of this article with only one source of information, a self-published one. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:33, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Please could you just stick to making concrete suggestions? Cheers. nagualdesign 02:22, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

I made several concrete suggestions in the form of actual edits to the article. You have seen them. Repetitively hectoring me with sladen's oddly specific demand is sonewalling.

You and three other editors have decided that the entire top half of the article is going to use one source, and only one source, and any other point of view is forbidden. It's a SpaceX soapbox. You can fix that by citing third party sources that share the single point of view that you four have decided to treat as "fact", while everything else gets shunted to the bottom of the article as mere "opinion". Cite a reputable, independent source who shares your opinion that this was merely a bit of fun and not a calculated publicity stunt. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:38, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

In case it escaped your attention I haven't personally been editing the article aside from minor edits here and there. Every time I open my watchlist the article has had a multitude of edits and I haven't been keeping up with them. I honestly don't know what specific edits you're talking about, and I have no wish to search the history for your edits any more than I wish to examine anyone else's. I come here, to the talk page, to engage in debate and offer my opinions, but the article itself I have had very little input to.

Despite your misgivings I am not stonewalling you, or hectoring you with Sladen's "oddly specific demand". I'm simply making my own request that you mention, here on the talk page, any specific edits so that we can specifically address them, and that request applied to other editors as well. The debate has become protracted to the point where I think several of us are probably talking at cross-purposes. nagualdesign 02:47, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

SpaceX built the hardware, the plan, and performed the test. They certainly set their own goals. Calling them `primary sources` does not open you the door to change that. The consensus in this Talk page (over multiple sections opened by Dennis) is that the reaction and opinions of experts and the press go into the corresponding section. We are done. BatteryIncluded (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Timing section NPOV

This section is a problem. The sourcing is weak and there is no actual discussion about timing. The timing could be completely meaningless. The section by its existence is making an unstated assumption that it was intentional and thus of importance, which no source supports. If it is purely coincidental there would be no reason to bring it up. The source from the Guardian is imparting two facts in the same sentence but is not drawing any connection between them, at best leaving it up to the reader to decide - or making no connection at all. That's fine for journalism but not Misplaced Pages, we don't imply things and leave them open-ended. Either we state clearly there was an intentional timing of launch with the earnings, or don't say anything about what could be a random event being improperly magnified into an entire section based on one journalist's brief sentence. -- GreenC 05:45, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree. The article is not about the finances of Tesla Inc. A single sentence in the 'Reactions' about the implied publicity value is more than enough. I say we delete that POV entry. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:50, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. It was added based on trying to guess what {{U|Dennis Bratland}} might be suggesting, combined with the expressed desire by Fcrary/nagualdesign that "Mr. Musk's statement about his own motives should be reported. And reported without spin. That way the readers can decide for themselves.". —Sladen (talk) 15:09, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually that was just me quoting Fcrary, which I agreed with, and to my knowledge Musk hasn't mentioned that being his motivation. In the same section I also wrote, "At the risk of sounding like I'm on the Tesla/SpaceX payroll, I really don't think that this article is the place to talk about Tesla's quarterly losses." To which Dennis replied, "I agree we can leave out the quarterly losses". I don't think anybody wants to see Telsa's quarterly losses in the article. nagualdesign 19:39, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

The timing section is not neutral so needs to go. I am removing it. --Frmorrison (talk) 15:05, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Good. nagualdesign 19:39, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Sladen's rather extraordinary addition looks awfully WP:POINTy. Was the idea to create some kind of straw man to knock down? That sort of behavior is not acceptable. If you want to change the article in along the lines of what I have suggested, then follow the SpaceX claims as to the intent of using a car directly with the counter-claims by any of a dozen reputable sources that the purpose was marketing. You can easily see that is what I was suggesting by looking and my actual edits. The edit history shows me making those exact changes, and the same three guys expunging any mention of non-self-published points of view from the Objectives section. Adding this Timing section to the very bottom of the article looks very much like some kind of joke, and an example of disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Find some reputable third party sources equal in weight to the ones mentioned (BBC, NYT, AP, AdWeek, etc etc) who say that it was not intended as publicity stunt, and cite them in the Objectives section. Otherwise you're citing self-published sources alone. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:42, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Future orbit and collision probabilities

The random walk of cars and their collision probabilities with planets

On February 6th, 2018 SpaceX launched a Tesla Roadster on a Mars-crossing orbit. We perform N-body simulations to determine the fate of the object over the next several million years, under the relevant perturbations acting on the orbit. The orbital evolution is initially dominated by close encounters with the Earth. The first close encounter with the Earth will occur in 2091. The repeated encounters lead to a random walk that eventually causes close encounters with other terrestrial planets and the Sun. Long-term integrations become highly sensitive to the initial conditions after several such close encounters. By running a large ensemble of simulations with slightly perturbed initial conditions, we estimate the probability of a collision with Earth and Venus over the next one million years to be 6% and 2.5%, respectively. We estimate the dynamical lifetime of the Tesla to be a few tens of millions of years.

Yes, it is quite relevant. Now we have to craft a condensed text. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Special:Diff/825640343 was the first attempt at adding a couple of sentences. —Sladen (talk) 15:11, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

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