Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:57, 20 October 2006

Archives

/Archive 1

I recommend looking into this "Archive" myself, there are two things you might notice immediately about it: (1) when a vote was taken on whether the article was really a good idea, it roughly split in half, and (2) ESP feels that it's now an "established part" of wikipedia. This is not anything like "consensus", this is more like one determined person avoiding changes to their personal territory. -- Doom 19:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Passive voice

..Passive voice. Weasel words are often in the passive voice, which weakens the effectiveness of written prose..

Is this not terribly POV? There is no objective argument that can be made that one piece of grammar is better than another. It is merely a opinion (dare I say prejudice?) that some people are trying to force down everybody's throat. In fact a good argument can be made that extirpation of the passive voice from one's language reduces its expressiveness and potential for nuance. Of course, not all speakers of a language achieve proper command of all its expressive potential, but should that really be made the norm? Passive voice is e.g. a necessary and very useful component of the scientific language. Yes, that is my Point Of View. If you do not think so, that is Your Point of View. af:Gebruiker:Jcwf

The passive voice should be avoided. Readability and liveliness are decreased whenever it is used.

But on a more serious note: nobody, I hope, seriously advocates completely abolishing the passive voice. (I say this knowing that there will no doubt be ignorant folk who do advocate this.) This is neither possible nor desirable. What is true is that indiscriminate use of the passive voice hollows out the effectiveness of prose, especially in the common case of a long string of weasel phrasings, lending an air of objectivity to thinly disguised subjectivity. I do agree that the guideline condemns the passive voice a little too baldly (it certainly doesn't always weaken the effectiveness).

As an aside, of course it's POV. What do you expect from a style guideline? An end to flame wars? It's not an article. You're plainly wrong when you say there's no objective argument that can be made for one piece of grammar being better than another, though. The trick is to lay down what you want to measure "better" by. Subsequently measuring that is probably difficult, but there's no denying that some ways of writing will be better than others, depending on your goal and target audience. 82.92.119.11 22:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

• I have removed the "passive voice" remark. All that can be said on that subject with any justification is that some people consider the passive voice inelegant in certain circumstances. The bare statement that the passive "weakens the effectiveness of written prose" is at best a point of view and at worst complete bollocks and either way has no place in a guideline project page. Ou tis 21:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• God bless you :) I couldn't stand that prejudicial remark but I thought it was there by consensus. Thanks for removing it. --Gennaro Prota 23:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a style guide, so it represents a consensus of multiple points of view. The passive voice allows an action to be descibed without its actor, as is "mistakes were made" rather than "I made mistakes". Most style guides which take up the topic of weasel words suggest avoiding the passive voice. My text is less judgmental but makes the point how passive voice is related to weasel words. patsw 02:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I still can't agree that any reference to the passive belongs here (though to avoid an edit war I'll wait for a reply before I edit the page again). All right, certain manifestations of 'weasal words', including some of the listed examples, involve the passive, but the comment thereon is under "Other problems", alongside "convoluted syntax", "repetition" etc. (some of these "other problems" seem to be dubious and to some extent to imply each other and so I'm not convinced that this section of the page is necessary at all, but let that pass for the moment), which suggests that the passive voice is a problem in itself (remember that what I first deleted stated that the passive "weakens the effectiveness of written prose"), not that it is one example of weasal words used to circumvent the NPOV policy (or it wouldn't be under "Other problems") - that an additional problem with weasal words is that they are often in the passive voice rather than that a problem with the passive voice is its potential for use in weasal words. For my part I'm not convinced that even the latter is so generally true as to be noteworthy, but I'm sure the former is cobbler's.

I've reinstated the "passive voice" point, since I think it's important, but I've used the tips presented in this guideline to make it more NPOV. There are some embedded values in good written English that eventually hit a level of arbitrary grammatical, spelling, and composition rules. The active voice is not necessarily better than the passive voice; a lot of people who care about written English think it's better, though. --ESP 02:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that those insisting on including "passive voice" as a "weasel word" are not comprehending what the "weasel word" proscription is about. The purpose of this guideline is simple: to avoid language that suggests conclusions that are not in fact valid or supported by suggesting agreement that does not exist. It's true that the passive voice is often not the best choice of style, but this is wholly unrelated to the encyclopedic concern of weasel words. For example, changing the sentence from "The president made mistakes" to "mistakes were made" does not in any way invalidate the truth of the statement. It also does not add false authority to the statement. Contrast this with a phrase like "Some people believe", which does add false authority and is a textbook weasel word. Passive voice does not belong in this category. The Crow 03:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No one is saying that passive sentence is necessarily weasel words; that's clearly not the case. The point is that some weasel words, as well as being problematic for NPOV reasons, also force a sentence into the passive voice. "John Doe says that ..." is in the active voice, but if you want to state the opinion without a source, you have to use the passive voice: "It has been said that ...". Along with being bad for NPOV reasons, this is bad for readability and style. It is a relatively minor point but it is worth making here. The original complaint was that the passive voice was not "always" bad, which I think is true and I've tried to temper the passive voice point accordingly. --ESP 03:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi hokkaido C, haven't you just shown exactly how the passive voice is misused as a weaseling way of letting "the president" of the hook in your example? If you said "the president made mistakes" there is absolutely no two ways about it as to whom you mean. As soon as you say "mistakes were made", nobody is any the wiser as to whom you mean. Nobody can accuse you of having libelled anyone, you are in the clear. It could be the whole government, it could be someone else in another country, it could be the world. The passive voice is a beautiful way of avoiding saying exactly who has been doing what, who is at fault of having made mistakes and whoever it was has got away with it. It's as easy as that.

As said in the Wiki article Weasel word the passive voice can be a perfectly legitimate way of distancing yourself from the statement you are making, but it most certainly can also be one of the finest ways of making statements which cannot be substantiated, because as in this case nobody will actually know who has made the mistakes, and much worse, a statement dressed up in the passive voice is likely to allude to people who are probably quite innocent of having made mistakes.

It is not a question of invalidating the truth of the statement regarding "what has been done", we know what has been done, mistakes have been made, it is a question of invalidating the truth of "who made them". Dieter Simon 23:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it does not invalidate the truth as to who made them. It simply omits information. The passive voice does not under any circumstances ever add falseness to a given statement. It is true that if you want to deceive, the passive voice may be an ideal vehicle for doing so, but then again so may commas, the conditional voice, dependent clauses, a well-placed ellipsis... the list goes on and on and on. There is nothing inherently weaselly about the passive voice. However, I will buy what ESP said. Weasel words encourage use of the passive voice, which stylistically often is not the best choice. The Crow 00:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I still maintain that there is no merit whatsoever in including a reference to the passive in this article. If a particular 'weasal' remark is in the passive it will be clear enough from what it actually says that it is one, without anyone's having to infer it from the grammatical voice of its verb. That one particular book on style, as cited in the present version (which I shall edit if someone doesn't convince me of its merits very soon), dislikes the passive voice (and I should appreciate more detail as to exactly what it says on the subject, as I do not possess the tome in question; I very much doubt that it simply advises never to use the passive, and if it does then it is a very bad book) does not mean that a Misplaced Pages style guide should say anything of the sort. No other style guide page that I've found advises against the passive (the Manual of Style merely (and in my opinion rightly) advises against its use in one particular circumstance), which strongly suggests that there is no consensus to the effect that the active is generally preferable. The passive is criticised in general terms only here, and it shouldn't be. If a 'weasal' remark which happens to use the passive is a bad thing, it is so because it is a 'weasal' remark, not because it uses the passive, and in the absence of consensus it is quite wrong for this page to do anything other than remain silent upon the general merits of the passive. Ou tis 15:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Do we agree that a) some weasel terms force a clause into a passive voice and b) if the passive voice is undesirable, this is yet another strike against those weasel words, and c) if b is true, it is worth mentioning on this page?

If we agree on those things, I think the question comes down to whether use of the passive voice is actually undesirable. I think that we could structure this guideline in a way that allows readers to make that decision for themselves, such as:

Many weasel words require a sentence to be in the passive voice, e.g. "It is widely believed that ...". If you consider the passive voice undesirable in written English, then you may find this to be another problem with those weasel word phrases.

The Misplaced Pages MoS defers to style manuals when all else fails. Strunk and White's Elements of Style is one of the canonical style guides for English composition; you can read a copy on Wikisource: wikisource:en:Elements_of_Style:Principles. Their section on voice is titled "Use the active voice;" I'm having a hard time linking to it directly, so you'll just have to scroll down.

My copy of the Chicago Manual of Style (15th ed.) section 5.112 says:

As a matter of style, passive voice is typically, though not always, inferior to active voice.

I'm not particularly familiar with Fowler's Modern English Usage, but at least this section of the King's English seems to be rigorously opposed to it for its wordiness.

The Columbia Guide to Standard American English is not as firm on the point, and even uses Some argue that... to soften their recommendation against the passive. However, this quote seems clear:

If you want your words to seem impersonal, indirect, and noncommittal, passive is the choice, but otherwise, active voice is almost invariably likely to prove more effective.

The American Heritage Book of English Usage puts up a rigorous defence of the passive voice where appropriate, but then goes on to suggest against the overuse of the passive. To quote:

Perhaps because of the use of the passive voice in technical writing, a sequence of passive verb forms can have the air of authority, but what it often has is air.

In any event, I'd like to move forward by adding the conditional point ("If' you consider the passive voice undesirable in written English, ..."), and we can perhaps pursue whether Misplaced Pages need form a consensus on matters of composition on Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style. Does that seem a fair compromise? --ESP 19:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, so would I, however certain things still need to be said about the use of the passive voice in weaseling. To say that the passive can never be used to add falseness is just plainly ridiculous. It can be used like every other grammatical device (or rhetorical device) in the course of weaseling.

The passive lends itself to generalization, instead of telling who actually is responsible for something, it is deliberately made unclear who is.

A statement, for example, which leaves out where or how a story started is a weasel whether it is in the passive voice or active voice.

'It has been mentioned he has embezzled money' (Who mentioned it?) It could be said in the active voice too, such as 'People say he has embezzled money'. If not true such a statement in whichever form could be libellous if not criminal. But since nobody says who started it, nobody can be held accountable for it. It could be totally untrue. Let's face it, falseness could be added to a statement, whether in the passive or the active voice and the rumour lands in the public domain. We are not talking about the grammar or linguistics here of what is being said, we are talking about what is being left out, renderiung a statement in such a way that it cannot be substantiated, a listener's inability to know the background to a statement which has been deliberately withheld. Dieter Simon 01:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think the passive voice should be specifically mentioned, because the very reason it exists is to omit the subject. The subject is, typically, what would be a proper reference for the fact, if there were one. This is what makes it eminently suitable for weaseling, as opposed to other constructions. Deco 03:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Poor Choice of Term

The original and proper sense of “weasel word” (introduced by Theodore Roosevelt) was a term used to suck the significance from the terms around it (much as a weasel might suck the contents of an egg from its shell). As such, a weasel word might well be used to introduce bias, but exactly and only by such sucking; nor would the purpose of a weasel word necessarily be to introduce bias. It would be nice if Misplaced Pages didn't so often corrupt things. —12.72.72.17

Yes, I agree myself: this particular use of the phrase "weasel words" has very little to do with the existing sense of the phrase. It's in fact a new coinage, and might actually be considered "original work" (I tend to think of this as "pulling an esr", myself). -- Doom 18:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Weasel links

I removed the section on weasel links. This guideline is about stating opinion without attribution. I don't think that "weasel links", prejudicial as they are, do that. I think it's a valid point that needs to be addressed, but I don't know if it will be addressed effectively in the middle of this separate guideline. Maybe move that idea to Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel links? --ESP 03:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Rough quantification

There is a situation I often encountered that skirts the boundary of "weasel words"; but I'm not really sure how best to avoid the concern. Often in scientific or technical areas, a particular opinion is held widely enough to be notable, but not uniformly enough to simply be presented as a consensus fact. While the actual approximate breakdown of opinion is not itself a subject of dispute, neither is precise quanitification possible.

Generally in describing such a situation, I can find little better to do than to write stuff like:

• "Many mathematicians argue ...."
• "A substantial minority of biologists believe that ..."
• "A majority of academic sociologists find ..."

Now in all those types of cases, it is relatively easy to find an individual citation of a figure in the relevant field who holds/argues/believes/etc whatever the claim is. But stating in unadorned form, e.g., "A study by Jones and Chiu found..." fails to give the correct nuance here. If it was just that one study, it is probably not notable or important enough to present. What makes it notable is that Jones and Chiu belong to "a substantial minority". However, we are definitely not in a position to state some false precision like "17% of biologists believe..."; the opinions just don't come so nicely carved out. Moreover, it is extremely difficult even to find anyone providing a good citation of the rough breakdown, the scientists each themselves state their opinions on the question, but hardly anyone "goes meta" enough to "give good quote" on the breakdown of belief. Nonetheless, I know enough about several areas to know in a practical way what these rough breakdowns are.

How do other editors handle this sort of approximate quanitification of expertise? LotLE×talk 00:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"A study by Jones and Chie found..., which contradicts, they argue, the classic view of the issue. Their results were accepted by x, and y,, amongst others, and formed the basis of a related study by z.." Jkelly 01:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That certainly seems ideal a lot of the time. But it sort of favors new disputes with relatively few experts, I think. For longstanding divisions within a field (e.g. between "schools of thought") it seems less likely to be possible to produce something quite as neat. Moreover, my feeling is that Jkelly's template automatically treats the matter with a fairly focused attention—if the point is more passing (though still notable), it might somewhat belabor the issue. I'm not disagreeing or diss'ing the suggestion, I'm just trying to figure out how to make sense of it for some examples I've dealt with concretely.

Still, I decide to look at a couple concrete examples. This one is quite impressive in its precision:

P=NP: In a 2002 poll of 100 researchers, 61 believed the answer is no, 9 believed the answer is yes, 22 were unsure, and 8 believed the question may be independent of the currently accepted axioms, and so impossible to prove or disprove.

My hunch is most propositions won't have such rather precise surveys. Here's one that starts with a general "most", but then sort of digresses into what feels like a false precision:

Riemann hypothesis: Most mathematicians believe the Riemann hypothesis to be true. (J. E. Littlewood and Atle Selberg have been reported as skeptical. Selberg's skepticism, if any, waned, from his young days. In a 1989 paper, he suggested that an analogue should hold for a much wider class of functions, the Selberg class.)

Both of those are from the leads of articles that are notable enough to get their own articles though. I'm a bit more interested in claims that are really just minor supports in an article on a related topic. LotLE×talk 01:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, let me give specific and actual problems from an article I'm actually working on:

Capitalism (re. influence of Smith, Ricardo): Today, most academic research on capitalism in the English-speaking world draws on neoclassical economic thought.

Capitalism (re. Marx's Labor Theory of Value): This theory is contested by most mainstream economists today, and even by many contemporary neo-Marxists (Scott 2005).

The second gives a citation, and that cite is to a reference work, but it still feels slightly fuzzy. The first one doesn't have any specific support (though there are several general references listed at the bottom of the article which generally lean in that direction). I'm not really sure how I might apply a Jkelly-style pattern to those sentences, especially without disrupting the flow quote a bit, since neither point really merits more words than it is given. On the other hand, I feel like both "most"s are slightly weasly. LotLE×talk 02:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Academic writing styles

I have found it acceptable in academic writing to state "Some have argued..." followed by a citation or two, or more. I do not see how that is weasiling bias in to anything. What is the specific advantage of taking the author names and putting them all in the start of the sentence, if someone wants verification they can go to the citation. That satisfies the Verifiability criteria, and I don't see how it specifically goes against NPOV, it is stating one point of view objectively IMO. Ansell 01:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point. Vague attribution and passive voice are often used when the name of the source is available via reference but not of particular importance to the article. I do not particularly care to read an encyclopedia article constantly peppered with "Ira J. Rozenblatz argued in his paper 'Dialectic analysis of the tapeworm' that tapeworms like melons." I just need to know what he said, followed by a link to a source, and trust that the editorial process will weed out content that violates verifiability or undue weight rules. The Crow 14:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

But in an encyclopedic context, it makes more sense to say what was said (followed by proper attribution, etc) rather than to say "some people say" this. In other words, you shouldn't choose "it has been argued that tapeworms like melons." over "Tapeworms like melons." If you can't defend the latter, then the former should not be used. --63.173.196.33 16:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC) (Random832 not logged in)

That's OK as long as there seems to be general agreement among sources that tapeworms like melons. However, if there are a number of different sources that are not in agreement, then you cannot state it as an affirmative fact. And if there are widespread notable opinions on the matter, neither can you simply omit it. An encyclopedia should characterize a debate, not re-enact it. When sources do not agree, then vague textual attribution helps you avoid re-enacting the debate. Citations should be included to reflect both opinions, which readers can choose to read and decide for themselves. The Crow 17:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

George W. Bush

Someone has substituted George Bush with 'John Smith' (July 6 edit). I think the original variant illustrates the question better, and in no way violates NPOV or whatever.

Neopets

Neopets does not have weasel words. All of those facts are true. I should know.General Eisenhower • (at war or at peace) 15:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand what a weasel word is. 71.234.32.84 21:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC) leave message at my user:Ouijalover page. Thank u

See the article weasel word. Dieter Simon 00:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

And WP:V, and WP:NPOV and WP:NOT while your at it! Computerjoe's talk 20:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Best City

A survey by the Economist Intelligence Unit states that Vancouver is the best city to _live_ in. Just thought I would share that. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4306936.stm)84.202.95.146 21:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Is "Four out of five doctors agree..." a weasel word?

The article tells me (see the last line in examples section) that "Four out of five doctors agree..." is a weasel word. But is this true ? It answers the following questions:

• Who says that? You? (Four out of five doctors)
• How many people think that? (four out of five)
• What kind of people think that? (doctors)

In my mind for it to qualify as a justifiable statement it would need to have multiple surveys stating the same consensus view. I do not see it violating any policy if it cites these surveys at the end of the sentence. The verifiability by a reader of the statement is the only piece missing from your analysis IMO. Ansell 12:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It can only be substantiated if a survey or certain surveys establish that out of so many doctors four fifths have indeed agreed that something is the way it is. Otherwise it must necessarily be a weasel, mustn't it. I agree with Ansell. Dieter Simon 23:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"Those..."

What about statements such as "Those who argue/consider/believe...", "Those statements are thought to be..." and "Those areas of research..."? Are these forms contributing to an acceptable opinion, or unacceptable hearsay?--Metron4 23:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Unbalanced

I don't really have much experience editing on Misplaced Pages, so please forgive my process ignorance, but whilst reading this article I was struck about how unbalanced it seemed. A lot of general "don't"'s are given, along with some weaselly examples; however whilst the "don't"'s are valid criticisms in the given contexts, there are many that they would not be -- which means this article itself has a kind of bias, because it is almost all negative in situations of shades of gray and uses a kind of "proof by example" technique. There is a small "exceptions" part, but it's right at the end. Reading the article is just like hearing someone rant on, and then when concentration has flagged, just a single sentence and some pointed examples are given to counter 2 1/2 pages worth of negative viewpoint.

Don't forget this is not in the main name space, it isn't in the article Weasel word. This is in the Misplaced Pages space. Dieter Simon 01:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It is in fact a Misplaced Pages project, which isn't normally in the public domain unless readers know about it. Dieter Simon 22:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add that the same could be said for a lot of lists of "dont's" in writing style. The reason all the "dont's" are focused on is to show examples of bad writing. They aren't meant to be considered negative; that's probably the wrong word to use. This style guide also lists counter examples which is what makes it a good resource for properly forming arguments and stating facts.--Metron4 15:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What's with the massive list of words/phrases? I see a lot of those in (respected) scientific literature. -Anon

"Probably"

Is "probably" (and its siblings, "likely", etc) a weasel word? As in, "The '666' carved on Mercedes' forehead is a probable reference to the biblical Number of the Beast", for example. Clayhalliwell 23:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

New stuff

Now this is it. You can't have a freaking opinion here and now, you can't even mention that people that have some opinion.This is the worse hypocrisis I have even seen. Misplaced Pages is written by people, and a certain bias is unavoidable. We are not freaking robots. The neutrality nazis have landed. Screw you guys, the Misplaced Pages will die because of people like you.

And causing a bit of a flamewar by doing a bit of trolling such as you are doing now, eh? What do you think NPOV is all about? Who are you anyway? All very well to express controversial opinions anonymously, isn't it? Whatever, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, and as an encyclopaedia only a Neutral Point of View should be considered. I have moved this paragraph to the bottom where "new Stuff" usually goes. Dieter Simon 23:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is an ideal. Generally biased text should be rewritten to be well-cited and more neutral, rather than removed altogether, unless it's truly unsalvageable. Deco 00:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It has been argued that some weasel words are useful to make a statement that is immediately (and I mean IMMEDIATELY) backed up with actual facts and shit, sort of like the Shakespeare article that uses some weird weasel/peacock stuff but supports them with cited sources and actual facts instead of just gushing over Big Willy. Weasel Words are not always the work of the devil, but one should learn to harness your chi energy in order to learn how to master their potent yet often seductive powers. For you see, the weasel word can be useful but it takes wisdom and force of will in order to keep them from turning a perfectly decent article into a stinking heap of worthless non-sequiturs and wild diversions from reality that will eventually culminate into anarchy, vandalism, and the end of the world. Smith Jones 05:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably the most confusing and annoying Misplaced Pages rule

I'll be damned if someone truly understands it, instead of a guideline for articles, Weasel Words has becomed the ugly cousin of POV, with articles being branded of having "weasel words" just because they are formated to fit a proper article, in wich, if all sources would be properly listed, it would be 10 times as big as it is.

I see the biggest problem in people only seeing the "letter" of this, and not the "spirit". It's not about the words, folks, it's about what's being done with those words. So, don't go looking for "weasel words", but for "weasel tactics". --jae 23:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Exclamation marks

I rolled back the exclamation points in the rhetorical questions in the first section. I thought they gave an incorrectly frantic tone to the questions. --ESP 15:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Allegations the same as Allegedly?

Allegedly is listed as a weasel word.

A wikiuser is arguing that Allegations, the noun of the word, is not a weasel word.

Is this true? Travb (talk) 03:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No, the noun "allegation" is normally a fact. If someone makes an "allegation", it is a fact that he/she makes it.

The adverb "allegedly", however, is a different kettle of fish, it is part and parcel of the vocabulary of weaselers. They may think they might not have to cite sources by including the magic word "allegedly" as in "allegedly, such and such a thing has happened". Whether they get away with is up to us, the listeners. Dieter Simon 23:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm going to go with... "Allegations" is a weasel word. While it's fact that someone makes an allegation, the choice of the word "allegation" to name what they make, instead of a synonym like "accusation" or "charge" or "statement that", I think is the choice of a weasel word. To call something an "allegation" instead of an "accusation" includes a much greater implication of falsehood. According to allegations, The Literate Engineer has made over 1,200 edits to the English language Misplaced Pages. Allegedly, The Literate Engineer has made over 1,200 edits to the English language Misplaced Pages. The Literate Engineer alleged that he has made over 1,200 edits to the English language Misplaced Pages. In all three sentences, the allegation/allegedly/allege does two things: 1, suggest that it isn't true I've made over 1,200 edits to the English language Misplaced Pages and 2, suggest that whoever says I've made over 1,200 edits to the English language Misplaced Pages is untrustworthy, a liar. I think that's pretty much the standard function of those words in all sentences: cast doubt on the veracity of a statement and the person making it, without specifying a legitimate reason why they should be doubted. The Literate Engineer 20:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Woah, aren't you going a bit over the top here? "Allegation" is really only a synonym of "accusation", a shade more diplomatic than "accusation" granted, but basically it means the same. If someone makes an "accusation" or an "allegation", he really does one and the same thing. He/she had jolly well better produce some substantiation if he makes either of the two or he'd be in trouble. That either are being made are facts, it's the substance which matters.

Do you really think if someone alleges I've done something I'd feel better about it than if he/she accuses of something? I don't think so. Dieter Simon 23:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I'm going over the top at all. Yes, the person making the _tion does the same thing either way - but to call it an allegation is to say it's an accusation without proof and they're making it up. It's not an issue of whether or not the person accused or alleged to have done something feels any different, it's a matter of whether the person making the allegation/accusation is credible or not. Look at it this way: the dictionaries I've checked define allege as "to accuse without proof". The act of saying someone did something, if you call it an allegation, you're automatically saying that the person who performs that act isn't to be believed. That is what I believe. The Literate Engineer 02:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Verging on OR

If people keep suggesting additions based on what just seems right to them, this rule will run the risk of being OR. New additions should have credible outside sources that already call them weasel words. Doczilla 04:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words - emotive or equivocal

I question the basic definition of "weasel words" used in Avoid weasel words.

The examples illustrate emotive language, i.e. language designed to sway the reader's emotions without presenting facts or reasoning.

But every other use of the phrase "weasel words" that I've met has referred to deliberately ambiguous language which allows the speaker to "weasel out of" a position or commitment when confronted with unwelcome facts or reasoning. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (my mid-1960s copy) defines "weasel-word" (US) as "a word which destroys the force of a statement, as a weasel destroys an egg by sucking out its contents". Philcha 13:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right. The article has "weasel words" and "smoky words" all mixed up. Smoky words can be used to weasel out of acknowledging something, but despite this overlap, there is a general difference. Doczilla 21:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

What is a sufficient resolution to dealing with Weasel Words?

I have been operating under the impression that Weasel Words should be removed, or replaced with specific inline citations, i.e.

"His critics have suggested that John Smith may be a functional illiterate." ==> "Author Ed Jones, in his book John Smith is an Idiot, wrote an open letter to Smith asking, 'John, are you able to read and write on an adult level?'"

In a dispute I've been having (on the talk page here) I believe *some* of the disagreement has been because some of the editors believe that simply adding a reference is sufficient (a seperate disagreement is listed below). So, is it sufficient to "fix" Weasel Words by just adding a reference to the critic, i.e.

"His critics have suggested that John Smith may be a functional illiterate." ==> ""His critics have suggested that John Smith may be a functional illiterate." Cbuhl79 19:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What Constitutes "too numerous to quanitify"

In the same dispute I mentioned above (on the talk page here), one of the major issues is over what constitutes "too numerous to quantify". Specifically, editors have stated that they believe "critics of <this organization>" are "too numerous to quantify". So, can anyone here elaborate on what they think falls under "too numerous to quantify". Cbuhl79 19:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)