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Source for culture and art

This woman is creating clitoris street art to get people talking about female pleasure. It’s certainly one way of persuading people to open up - a BBC round-up of recent art projects. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Carbon Caryatid, in the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section, we have some clitoris awareness material. A sentence or or a few sentences on what you cited above can be added to that section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:36, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

I've added from the BBC article, and I've found some other projects that deserve mention as well, so I've folded them all in. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Carbon Caryatid, I initially reverted you, but I then restored most of the material. When it comes to big changes, keep in mind that changes are likely to be contested and this is already a big article. This is why it's best to propose big changes first. I tweaked some of your text. One issue with your edits is WP:REFPUNCT. Punctuation comes before the references. Another issue is WP:Dated wording; we should not state "recent" or "recently." Another issue is WP:Editorializing; stuff like "in fact" is not needed. And another issue is that this article uses a specific reference style, and is why Trappist the monk fixes reference issues at this article. This article doesn't cite the full reference in the main text. A few cases do that at the moment, but they need to be fixed. If I am to have this article be elevated to WP:FA status one day, consistent citation style is a part of that.

I don't feel that a "Contemporary art" section is needed. There's not much on clitoral art, and the art stuff could have continued to be covered in the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section, but having a "Contemporary art" section makes sense. I cut the first paragraph because it was not specifically about the clitoris. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I am unclear what you mean here. Your first sentence says you "don't feel that a "Contemporary art" section is needed," but then end your comment by saying "having a Contemporary art" section makes sense." Perhaps you meant something different? I strongly believe that the art section improves the article. I also propose that we add a section on the clitoris in literature and poetry. Perhaps the section on art could be combined? e.g. Clitoris in art and literature? AnaSoc (talk) 00:05, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

How are you unclear? I gave my opinion and then noted that having a "Contemporary art" section makes sense despite my opinion. As for a section on the clitoris in literature and poetry, most of the Society and culture section is about the clitoris in literature. So what do you mean by "literature"? Books? I would need to see a proposed section in your sandbox before agreeing to it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

thanks for the clarification about what you meant about the addition of the art section. I like how the art section is coming together. I want the entries about Judy Chicago and Tee Corinne to be put back in as other examples of clitoral art. These two works are the first feminist representations of the clitoris and therefore should be included. We also might find a reference to the clitoris jewelry, glasswork, prints and paintings, and small sculptures that emerged from the 1970s cultural feminist art scene.AnaSoc (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I have no issue with the Judy Chicago and Tee Corinne stuff being restored as long as it about the clitoris rather than vulva as a whole. Trappist the monk and I can clean up the references for you, but you should be looking at the citation style in the article and trying to format it on your own. Trappist the monk can help you learn if you ask him. As for other stuff, please propose the material in your sandbox first, and then link to it here, so that you and I, and others, can work on it together. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:40, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

why compare to penis in the intro summary?

The third sentence of the introductory summary compares the penis to the clitoris. There is no similar statement in the introductory summary for the penis. https://en.wikipedia.org/Penis I deleted it and added a sentence about the sole function of the clitoris. AnaSoc (talk) 02:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

AnaSoc, it appears you were watching this article since you added a section about art after I was discussing it above with another editor. Whatever the case, as you can see here, I reverted your changes to the lead. You removed important summary material. It is important, which is why we have an entire section comparing the penis to the clitoris. The WP:Lead is meant to summarize the article. As for "there is no similar statement in the introductory summary for the penis," look at the Human penis article. It does mention the clitoris since the two are homologous (equivalent). That is why we compare them -- they are homologous and there is much literature comparing them, including in the case of sexism. And like lower in the Human penis article, there is comparison material lower in this article. This article, however, is better put together because it is WP:GA. The Human penis article is poor, and the Penis article is even poorer. Also, your "In humans, the only purpose of the clitoris is to provide sexual pleasure." addition is not only likely not needed in the lead, it is somewhat challenged in a section lower in the article. Yes, the clitoris only seems to be for pleasure in humans, but it is an aspect that has been challenged and it's not something that needs to be in the lead unless we include it in the "whether the clitoris is vestigial, an adaptation, or serves a reproductive function" paragraph. In that paragraph, we could state the following: "Although, in humans, the only known purpose of the clitoris is to provide sexual pleasure, whether the clitoris is vestigial, an adaptation, or serves a reproductive function has been argued."

When it comes to this "female midwives during the Renaissance knew about the clitoris, believing that orgasm aided women to become pregnant" part you added, it is already in the article. It is in the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section, which states, "Although 17th-century midwives recommended to men and women that women should aspire to achieve orgasms to help them get pregnant for general health and well-being and to keep their relationships healthy." This is a big article. Whatever you are thinking is not covered in it is likely covered in it. Also, per MOS:MED, we simply call the sections "Society and culture," not "Society, culture, and history." When you see a WP:Hidden note, it is there for a reason. The hidden note that you removed and I restored states, "No History subheading was created, because it is unnecessary/non-beneficial to artificially separate the historical content from the Society and culture section; it's all society and culture." This is true. A "History" subheading is not always needed. Also, this article uses a particular citation style. So your citation style should follow that, although Trappist the monk is here to help.

I ask that you propose/discuss any significant changes before making them to this article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Can someone help with an image?

The new section on art lacks any image, which isn't ideal. Common sense tells me that including a logo or advertising material ought to be fair use, but I can't cite WP chapter and verse. I'm thinking of something like this for the ClitArt Festival. Can someone add it, or something else appropriate? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I've now copied the artwork from Sophia Wallace, but still, one of the "poster" images for the ClitArt festival or Clitorissima film would be a useful addition. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

check out the cool CC image here: https://theconversation.com/why-the-clitoris-doesnt-get-the-attention-it-deserves-and-why-this-matters-53157 May not work for this article, but an image to keep in mind. AnaSoc (talk) 00:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Citation style

Trappist the monk, when you get the chance, will you fix the instances that have the references directly in the main text and relocate them to the References section instead? Or do you recommend that we finally use a different citation style for the whole article? As you can see with this edit, despite what I stated above, AnaSoc still used a different citation style. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:09, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

purpose of clitoris

Scientific and medical debates about the clitoris has for generations rendered the clitoris invisible and/or maligned. Modern scientists agree that the evolutionary purpose of the clitoris is for sexual pleasure. This is well documented and is one of the most important facts about the clitoris. I would like to see this fact in the summary. AnaSoc (talk) 00:10, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

you mean the part where it says: "The clitoris is the human female's most sensitive erogenous zone and generally the primary anatomical source of human female sexual pleasure" in the second Paragraph, or maybe "Extensive sociological, sexological and medical debate have focused on the clitoris, primarily concerning anatomical accuracy, orgasmic factors and their physiological explanation for the G-spot. Although, in humans, the only known purpose of the clitoris is to provide sexual pleasure" in Para 3? IdreamofJeanie (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

thanks for pointing me to this. But I mean a general statement of the function of the clitoris in the first paragraph, the function that is common to all animals, not just humans. AnaSoc (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

AnaSoc, and per what I stated below, that piece does not belong in the very first sentence. Except for sexual pleasure, anatomists and scientists do not know what the purpose of the clitoris is. They speculate, yes, but they are also clear that they have no definitive answer. We have a whole section about it. And we have Helen O'Connell, one of the main researchers who has advanced the knowledge of the clitoris, stating. "It boils down to rivalry between the sexes: the idea that one sex is sexual and the other reproductive. The truth is that both are sexual and both are reproductive." We also know that the spotted hyena does not only use the clitoris for sexual pleasure, and, according to the "Other animals" section, it seems that the clitoris does not solely exist for sexual pleasure in a few other animals as well. Also, for flow and structure, debate material should stay in the debate paragraph of the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:40, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I already replied in the #why compare to penis in the intro summary? section immediately above and below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Latest edits

AnaSoc, like I stated above, this article is WP:GA, which means that care needs to be taken with it. Not only has wording for the article been extensively worked out, it follows a particular citation style. Despite me noting that it follows a particular citation style, you did not take the time to try to learn it or ask about it. Instead, you added yet another piece that does not align with the citation style for this article. And despite what I stated on your talk page about WP:Minor edits, you are still marking non-minor edits as minor. I reverted you on this because the "only the button-like portion" is "visible externally" part mainly applies to humans. It clearly does not apply to spotted hyenas, for example. And "this highly complex organ" piece is unnecessary WP:Editorializing on your part. I'm not opposed to changing "well-developed" to "large," and I went ahead and did that. But, again, you are not trying to discuss, even after I asked you to above and noted on your talk page that you should. This is to avoid mistakes, redundancies, guideline issues and WP:Edit warring. And as for this, we follow what the sources state. It is not our job to right the great wrongs. If the source states "pea," so do we. And regarding this, on what grounds are you arguing that this is false? Yes, the clitoris has been subject to much sociological debate. Are you "defining sociological debate" differently? You also returned this "sole purpose" material. You did it in a similar way I suggested, but it does not belong in the first paragraph. So I moved it to the relevant paragraph and used my suggested wording. If you keep editing WP:Disruptively, I will be reporting it.

Johnuniq and Rivertorch, I assume you are still watching the article. Can I get your thoughts on this? We have an editor -- AnaSoc -- who is not listening and seems to sometimes be editing from her own viewpoint. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:14, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

please point me to a source that verifies that there has been "extensive sociological... debate... concerning anatomical accuracy, orgasmic factors and their physiological explanation for the G-spot." This is anatomy, not sociology. Thanks. AnaSoc (talk) 00:21, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

AnaSoc, I am well-aware that this "is anatomy, not sociology." And? It is still a fact that the clitoris has been subject to much social//sociological/societal debate, as the article makes abundantly clear. Why else do you think the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section speaks of "terminology used by college students, ranging from Euro-American (76%/76%), Hispanic (18%/14%), and African American (4%/7%), regarding the students' beliefs about sexuality and knowledge on the " and "A 2005 study reported that, among a sample of undergraduate students, the most frequently cited sources for knowledge about the clitoris were school and friends, and that this was associated with the least amount of tested knowledge"? And what do you make of the female genital mutilation aspect, which is mentioned in sociology books, such as this 1998 "Modernity, Medicine, and Health: Medical Sociology Towards 2000" source, from Psychology Press, page 117, which speaks of "fierce debate among feminists"? Is none of this sociology in your opinion? What about feminist sociology? What about this 2008 "Sociology for Social Workers" source, from Polity, page 163, which states, "Nymphomania was the medical term given to women who were seen as having unhealthy sexual desires or fixations. The condition was also seen to affect women's genitals, and in some cases led to clitoridectomies (castration of the clitoris). Goldberg (1999) discusses how women were subjected to a range of treatments to cure abnormal sexual desires."? And, yes, this aspect is also already covered in the article. There's also sources like this 2016 "Sociology: The Essentials" source, from Cengage Learning, page 52, which states, "Many have called for international intervention to eliminate , but there is also a debate about whether disgust at this practice should be balanced by a reluctance to impose Western cultural values on other societies." Sources on these matters are in the article; I have not falsified a thing. Once again, you need to start discussing first. Adding first and then discussing is not ideal on a high-profile anatomy/medical article such as this. Read WP:ONUS.

IdreamofJeanie, good to see you at this article as well. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

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