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Poland Start‑class Low‑importance

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Deprod

Splitting separate articles from long sections is how wikipedia works: WP:Summary style. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Yep. This was done in accordance with WP:SPLIT. One can of course take it to AfD, but you'll need a better argument that WP:IDONTLIKEIT. (To be honest, I don't like this topic that much, but it doesn't stop me from seeing it is notable). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I would seem that modern historiography and hagiography around this matter has made it independently notable, despite "collaboration" (here, and in the original parent article) being a POVish term.Icewhiz (talk) 07:42, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

You take off that delete request, and I'll forward you to incident board, this article is clearly contact forking, because all it does is duplicates stuff on WW2 collaboration page, this article is noting more then user Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus throwing a crying fit over the last article — instead of waiting a bit on the other article. --E-960 (talk) 16:05, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Read the policy, this is not an uncontroversial deletion, as multiple edds have said so. AFD it.Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Read Misplaced Pages:Proposed deletion- you may only PROD once. this article was already prodded and de-prodded. You can't prod again. If you think this should be deleted - you need to do an AfD. Or a merge discussion (back to the list) - I doubt such a motion will succeed, but that's the way forward after a de-Prod.Icewhiz (talk) 16:20, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Hiwi (volunteer)

Poles who served in the Wehrmacht (it does not matter if they are ethnic poles) Poles in the Wehrmacht, they were Poles.Slatersteven (talk) 19:06, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

This is not the correct application of Hiwi, it primarily relates to other ethnicities that served in the SS, however I agree that the Poles in the Wehrmacht is ok in this case, as there were many Poles from Sląsk who were drafted in, but they were not willing collaborators. On the other hand Hiwi is a willing collaborator who joined the German uniformed services. --E-960 (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Primarily is not solely, if poles served in the capacity of Hiwi it is a valid see also.Slatersteven (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I thought (by the way) no poles served in the SS?Slatersteven (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

No they did not serve in the SS, and there was no such thing as a Polish unit, that's correct. --E-960 (talk) 19:26, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It does not matter if they were a unit ] "...members transferred to various units of the SS, Gestapo..." so poles served in the SS, correct?Slatersteven (talk) 19:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps, you should let-off the subject, because I'll ask you what do you mean by "Pole" someone of ethnic back ground or former citizenship? Because an ethnic Poles was a non-entity with no legal status, and he would not have been allowed in to the GERMAN Wehrmacht, Gestapo, or German SS units. --E-960 (talk) 19:35, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

BTW, read the the opening paragraph of Hiwi: "Hitler reluctantly agreed to allow recruitment of Soviet citizens in the Rear Areas during Operation Barbarossa." and "Between September 1941 and July 1944 the SS employed thousands of collaborationist auxiliary police recruited as Hiwis directly from the Soviet POW camps." This term relates to folks in the Soviet Union who collaborated, not Poland. This is what I was afraid of, editors who do not have sufficient knowledge of the subject just adding every questionable item to this article. --E-960 (talk) 19:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

So are you arguing that Ethnic Germans were not Polish?Slatersteven (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Either way, Hiwi relates to SOVIET collaborators, pls read the article. This term is not applicable here. --E-960 (talk) 19:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes it does (relate TO POLES) ].Slatersteven (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

First of all, it does. Second, "see also" links aren't always directly related to the article's subject, so even if it didn't it was still worthy of inclusion. François Robere (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Yup, I can see you're back and trying to add everything negative about Poles. This is a false statement that's just ignorantly lumps Poles with the Soviets, and in English speaking media this is not uncommon, just like the Polish death camps, the Polish SS and the Polish Wehrmacht... now the Polish Hiwi. --E-960 (talk) 19:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It is sourced, your claim is not.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

One dictionary reference, is hardly a reference source backed by full text, I can find you hundreds of short definitions on many things that are inaccurate. --E-960 (talk) 20:02, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It does not have to be, it demonstrates what you claim is not accurate. It has been applied to Poles, and that is all a See also needs, a link to the subject (ohh and ]). You have not one source saying it was used only for Russian volunteers.Slatersteven (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, same with Polish death camps, the Polish SS and the Polish Wehrmacht I'm sure you can find in the English speaking world 100s of references that use those term. Still not correct, though. --E-960 (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

We do not judge that a source says, we repeat it. You have provide no valid rational for exclusion of this see also, and this is getting to the stage of tendentious editing.Slatersteven (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

E-960 oh, so we are having a debate about Polish Waffen SS now :)? Interesting. Did we have a discussion about Polish Gestapo yet? Sorry for asking but I'm not following this closely anymore? In any case, let Piotr deal with this now E-960. GizzyCatBella (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

He added the material claiming that Poles had joined the SS and the Gestapo, I am happy to remove the whole section.Slatersteven (talk) 20:26, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven No, Poles couldn't join SS or Gestapo. Volksdeutsche did, mostly Wehrmacht. GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Sop why are they in an article about Poles? If they were not Polish they have no place here, you cannot have it both ways.Slatersteven (talk) 08:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal commentary and try to stay on-point. This is per MOS:SEEALSO. Do you have anything else? François Robere (talk) 20:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Hiwi is a term for Soviet collaborators, and is misleading if someone uses it for Poles, it is wrong just like Polish death camps, the Polish SS and the Polish Wehrmacht. --E-960 (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Regardless, it's related to the issue of collaboration with the Nazis, and so appropriate in the very least in the "see also". François Robere (talk) 20:42, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

This claim has no source baking it, please stop making it.Slatersteven (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Are you going to add Luxembourgish collaboration with Nazi Germany or Cham Albanian collaboration with the Axis to this article because it is related to collaboration? Not need here. --E-960 (talk) 20:48, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

If RS say they were Polish, yes, do you have any that say this?Slatersteven (talk) 08:43, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

If it's major, it can be added. If not, better add the category or "parent" article. François Robere (talk) 20:52, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

This discussion is pending, and you stated your point. --E-960 (talk) 20:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

• Note - Poles did serve in the SS, however generally they declared themselves to be German first via Volksliste. After the war some of them reverted to being declared Poles.Icewhiz (talk) 21:15, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Can you give me a sample name of a Polish SS-men Icewhiz? GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:42, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Per this - there were some, though perhaps not many. Conscription to the Wehrmacht was more common, see - Kowalska, Magdalena. "A Polish heart in a feldgrau uniform–complicated journeys from the Wehrmacht to the Polish Army in Exile." Edukacja Humanistyczna 2 (2015): 97-105. for instance.Icewhiz (talk) 07:13, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Right, as per the only source you could find, "few Polish nationals," which means pre-war citizens, subjects, not ethnic Poles. These SS men were Ukrainians, pre-war Polish Citizens. Ethnic Poles were not allowed into the SS even if they wanted to. Wehrmacht, the same story, you had to be declared a German to be drafted, such in the case of Silesians, the Germans viewed as their own. Ethnic Poles could not join Wehrmacht even if they wanted to. GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:42, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

As long as the remained declared ethnic Poles - indeed - they could not join. However, the Germans promoted (and actually forced) a large number (in Western Poland) to sign Volkslistes - which made them German in German eyes.Icewhiz (talk) 08:39, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

"Baiting"

One of the Jewish collaborationist groups' baiting techniques was to send agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Polish families for help; if a family agreed to help, it was reported to the Germans, who—as a matter of announced policy—executed the entire family.

This looks like blood libel material, and is only sourced from Money.pl and Salon24, which seem like popular magazines and not RS for a claim of this gravity. Are there any other sources supporting this? François Robere (talk) 20:25, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Might want to take it to RSN, not sure these are RS for such a claim but they might be. but i do not think making statements about blood libel help matters.Slatersteven (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

These are two reliable sources attached to this statement, both are full articles that deal with Jewish collaboration. But, you don't like them cause they are Polish news magazines, however you had no problem using Israeli internet news sources as reference. --E-960 (talk) 20:30, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Do they quote reputable research/ers? François Robere (talk) 20:32, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I have never heard of then, so have no idea how reliable they are. Hence my suggestion to take it to RSN rather then just go ahead and delete it.Slatersteven (talk) 20:32, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Blogs are generally not considered RS, and Salon]24 appears to be a blog. I will tag the sources.Slatersteven (talk) 20:34, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

These are not blogs, they are news magazines. --E-960 (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Odd as I can only find reference to one as a blog, hence why I think this needs taking to RSN, so they who have a better knowledge of Polish media can cast an uninvolved eye over it.Slatersteven (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not a statement about the editor, but about the material. Popular media tends to repeat common perceptions, in this case antisemitic. This means we need to be extra careful with our due diligence. François Robere (talk) 20:35, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It is still not helpfull and prerogative.Slatersteven (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Noted. François Robere (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

These two sources are reliable though not academic, and the tags are ok, in time I'm sure academic text on this topic will be found, so just give it time and the references will bulk up the text here. Just so you know, in a TV discussion names of actual people involved in baiting were named, so this is a valid subject that is documented, it's just a matter of finding more sources to back it because in the English speaking media this topic is taboo and ignored. --E-960 (talk) 20:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Without multiple academic level sources (and this is a widely studied topic, some Jewish collaboraters were tried after the war, e.g. Rudolf Kastner) - this should not be included. Leave the newspapers for contemporary subjects - not history.Icewhiz (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources#News organizations are a reliable source, though not prime, per Misplaced Pages guidelines. --E-960 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

@E-960: That's about news reporting, not historical facts. Notice caveats on "scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources" and the need to check on a story-by-story case. Do the two articles cite any RS (eg. studies, books, archives, scholars that we can consult)? François Robere (talk) 21:49, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Railroads workers

I see we have already Poles working at railroads who would be executed in 2 minutes if they refused to operate the trains, but they are now collaborators. :) Remarkable. Whats next? GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

At this point, I'm expecting a reference that if you were Polish and just went about your daily tasks, you were a 'collaborator' and an 'enabler' because you did not charge the Germans with a pitchfork or garden rakes at the first possible instance. This is history according to Misplaced Pages, who can get more of their "like minded' to force through their content, does not matter if it's accurate. --E-960 (talk) 21:10, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

One could say the same regarding some of the Judenrat. Not everyone who collaborated had an "easy out". Icewhiz (talk) 21:21, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, but in the case of Judenrat someone conveniently keeps removing this statement form the text. "Political theorist Hannah Arendt stated in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem that without the assistance of the Judenrat, the registration of the Jews, their concentration in ghettos and, later, their active assistance in the Jews' deportation to extermination camps, fewer Jews would have perished because the Germans would have encountered considerable difficulties in drawing up lists of Jews." --E-960 (talk) 21:25, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

That would be because as far as U+I can say that is not talking about Poland, so it is synthesis to use it to make a claim about Poland.Slatersteven (talk) 08:45, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You would probably want more than 1 opinion. My own 2 editorial cents would be that Jewish collaboration should be in a separate article for two reasons. First this will reduce POV warring on "degree of collaboration" between groups and allow us to focus on the facts. And finally, Jewish collaboration was more or less the same throughout Eastern Europe (in areas Nazi Germany had direct or almost direct control) - the Polish Judenrats were not different from the Ukranian Judenrats (beyond city/region variations) - the two sets were more or less the same.Icewhiz (talk) 21:38, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz Could you please give me a sample name and location of a Ukranian Judenrat? And by the way, I'm still waiting for at least one name of a Polish SS-man. Thanks GizzyCatBella (talk) 00:25, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

::: :) Firefighters??? GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:33, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Public sanitation worker, no doubt??? --E-960 (talk) 21:35, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

All gardeners, that's for sure. GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Newsstand vendors, cause the Germans occupiers were able to buy newspapers. --E-960 (talk) 21:39, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

The rail was vital for the German war effort - all the supplies east went by rail. Was also very important for the Holocaust. Railcars filled with ammo and cattle cars stuffed with people.Icewhiz (talk) 21:41, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, but, was that collaboration or a form of forced labor?? When you are forced to show up for work, or you'll be deported to a concentration camp — work under coercion is not collaboration, but slave labor. Surly you can see the difference. --E-960 (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

There's no suggestion in the cited sources of coercion. François Robere (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Look François Robere, I will openly say that you fellows have no idea about the German occupation of Poland. Railroads workers had to report to work; everybody was required to have an Ausweis (prove of employment) and Kennkarte. Without these documents, in łapanka or if simply stopped on the street, deportation to the Concentration Camp or German labor camp was your only future. Railay workers were not collaborators; they had to work; I'll remove this later, but for now, I'm just having fun watching you guys. GizzyCatBella (talk) 00:54, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I removed it. It was original research and synthesis. The first source does discuss the employment of Poles in unskilled labor positions by the Ostbahn but does not call it collaboration. The second source is primary and also does not say anything about collaboration afaict.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:37, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

1. There's no need for a source to be explicit in using the term "collaboration" as far as it answers the definition of collaboration as given in Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II. This issue has been discussed there before.
2. The first source describes work for the Ostbahn including in the roles of train engineer, switch tower operator and train technician - skilled labor - including on German military trains.
3. The second provides witness accounts by such workers regarding transport trains. There's nothing in policy against using primary sources.
4. Each source is used to establish the claim it is preceded by, and both satisfy WP:RS. As such, they do not satisfy WP:OR.
5. However, to assuage your fear of WP:SYNTH, here's a source that uses the term "collaboration" explicitly ; a secondary source that uses the term "complicity" to describe various aspects of train use, and specifically mentions the Ostbahn participation in death transports ]; a secondary source mentioning both , and in addition the fact drivers of the like received incentives; and another one with a whole bunch of examples of collaboration, including the Ostbahn

François Robere (talk) 02:34, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

So where is your reference above saying that the Polish railroad workers were collaborating with the Nazis? :) GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:45, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

There's no need for a source to be explicit in using the term "collaboration" as far as it answers the definition of collaboration - it has to be pretty clear though. And this source isn't. Neither sources supports the claim of collaboration. That's your own invention - i.e. original research and synthesis. This is pretty textbook actually.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:55, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

As to your new sources, the first one doesn't say anything about the Ostbahn. It does mention Polish railroad workers but does not say they were collaborating. It uses the word "collaboration" somewhere else in the article. I can't access the second source - you can try and provide a quote - but even then, "complicity" and "collaboration" are two different things.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:58, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

First, what the sources describe is simply "work", which is exactly what eg. Polish officials in the GG did. That's in-line with the definition in the other article.

The title of the source is "Collaboration and Complicity during the Holocaust", are you really going to contend the mention of Polish railway workers isn't it?

There was a whole discussion in the other talk page about whether complicity equals collaboration, and the consensus was that it does, as several sources support it. You can see now how there's a section here Poles and the Holocaust.

I've added a couple more sources for you to browse. François Robere (talk) 03:03, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's the title, but in that paragraph the article is just describing the nature of German occupation. It does not say that railroad workers were collaborators. I don't knw what discussion you're referring to so I can't comment on it. What other sources? Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:10, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

And look, if you're gonna link gbooks and claim "it's in there" then we need to see the quotations if the books themselves are not accessible. After the shenanigans with the other sources and the original research, not gonna take it on faith.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:13, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

No, it isn't. The paragraph starts with "As German forces implemented the killing, they drew upon some Polish agencies..." in an article that's about "widespread collaboration". There's no misreading-it. Do you want a third opinion? RFC? Take your pick.

Please avoid making such comments. You do not know me or my approach to editing, and jumping to conclusions isn't becoming anyone. I merely wanted to avoid using a tertiary source, and thought it was obvious from the other texts. As for G-books: I didn't use a proxy server for accessing them, and you shouldn't need to either. If the linking troubles you, I can give you a full citation instead.

• Gigliotti, Simone (2009). The Train Journey: Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust. Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-0-85745-427-0. - p. 36 mentions the Ostbahn as one of several "national carriers" who supplied death trains.
• Webb, Chris (2014-04-15). The Treblinka Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-3-8382-6546-9. - p. 179: "It is no exaggeration to state that without the close collaboration of the Reichsbahn and the Ostbahn with the SS, the Holocaust would not have been possible."; p. 186 with testimonies by Polish train engineers operating death trains and a mention of receiving vodka from the Germans for morale support.
• Kroener, Bernhard R.; Muller, Rolf-Dieter; Umbreit, Hans (2000-08-03). Germany and the Second World War: Volume 5: Organization and Mobilization of the German Sphere of Power. Part I: Wartime Administration, Economy, and Manpower Resources, 1939-1941. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-160683-0. - ch. 4.1 provides numbers on various collaboration agencies, including the Ostbahn.

François Robere (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, "drew upon some Polish agencies" is not "collaboration". What the article is doing is describing the nature of the German occupation. The rest is your own original research. As for your other sources:

The Train Journey: - yeah, but where does it say anything about Polish collaboration? Again, you're drawing inferences and making SYNTHesis.

The Treblinka Death Camp - again, this just says that Ostbahn "collaborated" (which is a bit strange choice of words seeing as how it was a German enterprise). It says NOTHING about "Polish collaboration". This article's title is not "Ostbahn collaboration with Nazi Germany".

Germany and the Second World War - ditto.

So it looks like my concerns were justified - you presented three sources which you claimed that supported the charge of collaboration by Polish railroad workers with Nazi Germany. Yet, when pressed on what's actually in those sources, all you're capable of providing are quotes about how the Ostbahn, not Polish railroad workers, was involved with the Nazis. In other words you were misrepresenting sources.

Look, you need sources which say that Polish railroad workers collaborated or it's a no go. And no amount of personal synthesis and original research can substitute for that.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I've asked for WP:3O. Summary of argument:

• Armstrong, John A. (1968). "Collaborationism in World War II: The Integral Nationalist Variant in Eastern Europe". Journal of Modern History. 40 (3): 396–410. – defines collaboration as "co-operation between elements of the population of a defeated state and the representatives of the victorious power". This is the definition used in Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II.
• Mierzejewski, Alfred C (2000). The most valuable asset of the Reich: a history of the German National Railway. Vol. 2, Vol. 2,. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 978-0-8078-6088-5. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help) – pp. 80-82 describes the Ostbahn, the railway operator set up by Germany in Occupied Poland: 60,000 Poles supervised by 5,300 Germans. The Poles were employed in everything from manual labor to high-proficiency jobs like switch tower operators, train engineers and technicians, including on German military trains.
• "Collaboration and Complicity during the Holocaust". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Retrieved 2018-03-18. – lists instances of collaboration and explicitly mentions Polish railroad personnel.
• Webb, Chris (2014-04-15). The Treblinka Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-3-8382-6546-9. – p. 179: "It is no exaggeration to state that without the close collaboration of the Reichsbahn and the Ostbahn with the SS, the Holocaust would not have been possible."; p. 186 has testimonies by Polish train engineers operating deportation trains, and a mention of receiving vodka from the Germans for morale support.
• Gigliotti, Simone (2009). The Train Journey: Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust. Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-0-85745-427-0. – p. 36 mentions the Ostbahn as one of several "national carriers" who supplied deportation trains.
• Kroener, Bernhard R.; Muller, Rolf-Dieter; Umbreit, Hans (2000-08-03). Germany and the Second World War: Volume 5: Organization and Mobilization of the German Sphere of Power. Part I: Wartime Administration, Economy, and Manpower Resources, 1939-1941. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-160683-0. – ch. 4.1 provides numbers on various collaboration agencies, including the Ostbahn.
• "Aktion Reinhard Train Transports – Eyewitness Statements". Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team. Retrieved 2018-03-18. {{cite web}}: no-break space character in |title= at position 16 (help) – provides witness accounts on Polish personnel operating deportation trains.

François Robere (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

And again, none of these sources state that Polish railroad workers were collaborating with the Nazis! You've invented that part yourself and you're pretending not to understand the objection (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT). Look. If collaboration by Polish railroad workers were an established fact or opinion in the literature you wouldn't be having this much trouble finding sources. But you can't find even one. Instead you giving us sources about how ... the German rail organization Ostbahn was collaborating! And that's on top of blatantly misrepresenting some sources (not to mention the fact that you listed several sources which were not accessible and claimed they supported the text, and only once you were asked to provide exact quotes did it come out that you were just making shit up).Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I was under the impression that collaboration could be forced (in fact we make that point often about things like the Blue Police).Slatersteven (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't know about that, but it's irrelevant to this question, since there is still no source which says this was collaboration (railroad workers, Blue Police is a different matter).Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp Familiarize yourself with this. Blue Police should not really be listed as collaborators. GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Which part deal with the definition of collaborators?Slatersteven (talk) 18:53, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I can't remember, it talks about the Police force, I may look for it later but read the whole thing plus amendments, it's actually very informative. GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:01, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

You mean then parts about how POW's have to obey the law and are subject to the police?Slatersteven (talk) 19:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

A request for a third opinion was filed. I have declined it, as there are more than two participants engaged in substantive discussion here. I recommend a different form of dispute resolution if discussion here does not resolve the issue. Thank you, /wiae /tlk 19:41, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Hey /wiae, the discussion in general includes other participants, but the part I asked for a third opinion on - the sources listed above - only involves one other editor, so it should satisfy WP:3O. Your thoughts? François Robere (talk) 19:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

No, there's at least two others who objected to this text. The difference is that I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, whereas they - rightly as it turns out - just rolled their proverbial eyes at you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Marek, you're being hostile for no good reason, and I suggest you drop the attitude. François Robere (talk) 20:05, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Re-add statement by Hannah Arendt about Judenrat

This statement should be re-added, but it keeps getting deleted by other editors focused and adding as much negative detial on Poles all the while sanatizing material related to collaboration of Polish-Jews:

Political theorist Hannah Arendt stated in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem that without the assistance of the Judenrat, the registration of the Jews, their concentration in ghettos and, later, their active assistance in the Jews' deportation to extermination camps, fewer Jews would have perished because the Germans would have encountered considerable difficulties in drawing up lists of Jews. --E-960 (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Extremely notable source; whether to quote or just cite is, again, a matter of editorial consideration. Note the hypothetical is disputed, but the general sense of importance of Judenräte to the Nazi plans can, and should be conveyed. François Robere (talk) 22:00, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I've become convinced that we should at most cite this source, not quote it. The book itself is from 1963, and she mentions Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews from 1961 as a source. There's been a lot of research on the subject in the half century that passed, some disputing this hypothetical's factual accuracy. Her opinion can be cited, but quoting it in full gives it undue weight compared to later sources. François Robere (talk) 19:11, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Because it is not talking about Poland, so it is synthesis. The passage seems to be talking about Germany, but even if it is talking about the wider issue it is not specifically about Poland.Slatersteven (talk) 08:47, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Possibly contains synthesis of material (explain here)

Explain the rationale before reinserting, please. GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:20, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I did explain above about the re inclusion of this material, I shall copy and paste it here

Because it is not talking about Poland, so it is synthesis. The passage seems to be talking about Germany, but even if it is talking about the wider issue it is not specifically about Poland.Slatersteven (talk) 08:47, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Excuse me? What is not talking about Poland?? GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:24, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

The pages from the book do not mention Poland as far as I can tell. Provide the quote where they do.Slatersteven (talk) 09:25, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Let me check GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:27, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

It mentions Warsaw further on, the passage quoted refers to the round up of Berlins Jews.Slatersteven (talk) 09:28, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven What are you talking about?? Can you be more specific GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:30, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I can find no interference to a claim that "without the assistance of the Judenrat, the registration of the Jews, their concentration in ghettos and, later, their active assistance in the Jews' deportation to extermination camps, fewer Jews would have perished because the Germans would have encountered considerable difficulties in drawing up lists of Jews" I can find such a quote relating to the removal of Berlins Jews, Not one about Poland. I cannot see how I can be more specific, the source does not say what we claim it does.Slatersteven (talk) 09:35, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven Judenrat's were only in occupied Poland. What removal of Berlin Jews are you talking about? Wait, I'll find you a helpful ref. GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:49, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

uh, Judenrats existed elsewhere...there was on in Vilnius, for example. You’ll want to consult Trunk’s book on the Judenrats. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:10, 18 March 2018 (UTC) p.s. also on for the Minsk Ghetto. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

uh? you mean this Wilno Ealdgyth? One of the pre-war biggest Polish cities? GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:00, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

But mainly Lithuanian, and not part of German-occupied lands until the invasion of the Soviet Union. And Minsk is certainly not in Poland. There were also Judenrats in three other Lithuanian cities - Kovno Ghetto, Švenčionys Ghetto, Šiauliai Ghetto. Other ghettos outside of Poland with Jewish councils - Daugavpils Ghetto, Riga Ghetto, etc. And ... Arendt's comments also apply to Jewish Councils in Western Europe - which were usually organized on a larger scale than city ghettos - especially the German ones, but others as well. Just quoting Arendt is misleading to the scholarship as it has developed in the years since 1963. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

It does not matter if Judenrats only existed in Poland, what matters is if the source says this about Judenrats in Poland. Does it?Slatersteven (talk) 12:22, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, Švenčionys Ghetto that was in the pre-war Polish Republic, and beside you keep linking ghettos, please link to Judenrat's. Even in short-lived Mińsk Ghetto, it's Judenrat head Joffe was a Polish Jew and lasted on his position from February until July 1942.GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

The other issue is that Arendt's view isn't the only one in scholars of the Holocaust. Other scholars (and more recent scholars) take the view that the Judenrat's activities were not actually that helpful to the Germans, or that even if the Jewish councils had not cooperated, the Holocaust would still have happened. Here is the USHMM's article on the Jewish Councils, which takes a more nuanced view than Arendt's quote would imply. The Jewish Virtual Library's summation also points to the varied views of the Judenrats - not a monolithic Arendt-viewpoint in the scholarship. Dan Michman has a good summary on pages 193-197 of The Oxford Handbook of Holocaust Studies (Oxford University Press 2010), which basically says it's impossible to generalize, because Jewish Councils/headships/Judenrats were so widespread across occupied Europe (not just in Poland) that the conditions and people involved make generalizations "problematic, if not impossible". (Dan Michman "Jews" Oxford Handbook of Holocaust Studies p. 194 Oxford: 2010). Ealdgyth - Talk 12:56, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Judenrats' existed everywhere. Frankly - I think "Jewish collaboration" should be a separate article - there was nothing unique to Poland (except for the death camp location - however Sonderkommando there were from "all over") - the Nazis didn't differentiate between Jews in different Eastern European countries all that much - same control structures.Icewhiz (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Everywhere? Can you please give me few examples links included? GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:09, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

See above. They also existed in western Europe, where they are generally called Jewish Councils, not Judenrats. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

As for a Ukranian ghetto with a Judenradt - see Boguslav, where a ghetto was set up and a Jewish Council appointed. Ref for that is the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945, volume II part B, Ghettos in German Occupied Eastern Europe. Pages 1590-1591 "Soon after the occupation of the town, the German military commandant ordered the newly established Jewish Council (Judenrat) to register all the local Jews.". Same work, pages 1593-1594 Fastov - "Soon after the start of the occupation, the Ortskommandantur ordered the newly created Judenrat to organize the registration and marking of the Jews (they were required to wear armbands), as well as the collection of a monetary “contribution” and the use of the Jews for various types of forced labor." Page 1596 in Kremenchug - there was a Jewish council of elders for the ghetto. Page 1598 Ol'Shana - "The military commandant appointed a Jewish Council (Judenrat) within the ghetto." Page 1611 Zvenigorodka "In the ghetto, there was a Jewish Council (Judenrat), which was established on the orders of the German authorities." This is just from the Kiev area section of the work on Ukranian and other non-Polish ghettos and camps. I could continue... but I think this establishes that non-Polish ghetto Judenrats existed. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:33, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Western Europe was indeed somewhat different (for a multitude of reasons - both German methods in general, and the characteristics of Jewish and general society). As for some examples - Kherson, Riga(Riga Ghetto), Minsk(Minsk Ghetto). I'm not aware of anything that was really Poland specific (certainly there where peculiar situations for each individual ghetto - but I'm not aware of any difference as a class between ghettos in main Poland (1939), eastern Poland (1941), and Ukraine or Belarus (1941). The Jewish communities themselves (with the exception of Mountain Jews and Crimean Karaites#During the Holocaust) were fairly similar (all speaking Yiddish primarily, being part of the Pale of Settlement under the Russian Empire).Icewhiz (talk) 15:39, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Judenräte's please, not small short-lived GhettosGizzyCatBella (talk) 15:48, 18 March 2018 (UTC)+

Like the Minsk one mentioned in the article you Linked to (is Minsk in Poland)?Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

(ec) Both Ol'Shana and Zvenigorodka lasted from August 1941 to May 1942. In the terms of the Holocaust, that's not short lived for a ghetto. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:58, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

-Arendt wrote that: "To a Jew, this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story. In the matter of cooperation, there was no distinction between the highly assimilated Jewish communities of Central and Western Europe and the Yiddish-speaking masses of the East. In Amsterdam as in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, She is talking about Judenräte's, is she not?Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Arendt is clearly discussing Jewish leadership across the entirety of German-occupied Europe. I don’t think we can generalize it to just Poland here. And she certainly doesn’t use the word Judenrat there...it seems to me to be OR to use the statement by Arendt to source a sentence about Judenrats, especially if, as below, some are arguing that Judenrat should only apply to councils in Polish ghettos. Arendt is quite clear she’s discussing more than just Poland. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:26, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Arendt (I am not sure) is making that point anyway. as I said the passage appears to be saying that then Germans were so impressed with the Berlin Jews actions they try (not always successfully) to implement it elsewhere.Slatersteven (talk) 13:03, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Are you for guys for real???? Judenrat originated in Reinhard Heydrich's memorandum in September 1939 that said: “In each Jewish community in occupied Poland, a Jewish Ältestenrat should be installed." Only in June 1941, few small, short-lived Judenrats were installed in the occupied Soviet area to be copied as per Polish example. In ALL other taken or allied states, formal Jewish representatives were formed on a countrywide level and stood described individually. Please research before arguing for god's sake. GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

So is Arendt unreliable for clams about Judenrates?16:13, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are talking about, she is reliable, she correlates Poland while citing Judenrat. GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:29, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

(ec) I'm not seeing where the google books excerpt that supports "Political theorist Hannah Arendt stated in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem that, without the assistance of the Judenräte in the registration of the Jews, in their concentration in ghettos, and later in their deportation to extermination camps, fewer Jews would have perished, because the Germans would have had considerable difficulty drawing up lists of Jews." actually says anything about Judenrats? It says "Jewish leaders" - the highlighted quote is "To a Jew, this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story." but that isn't a Judenrat necessarily. The excerpt then goes on to discuss Amsterdam, Warsaw, Berlin, and Budapest, but still nothing about Judenrats. In fact here Arendt says that the only Judenrat member to testify at Eichmann's trial was Pinchas Freudiger, who was a member of the Judenrat of Budapest! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:42, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth In Hungary, the Jewish representative was named Kozponti Zsido Tanacs. I'm not sure why she calls it Judenrat GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

She correlates Warsaw with Berlin, Budapest, Amsterdam and others.Slatersteven (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

you know Slatersteven, I have second thoughts in regards to Arendt quoting. Let me think about it. I may agree with you after all. GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:40, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I think now Slatersteven, that you can eliminate her quote actually. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

So do we now have consensus that Arendt is not a valid inclusion?Slatersteven (talk) 17:15, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:37, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven you may desire to wait for an evaluation of other working editors but after a secondary thought, (not entirely agreeing with you) I think that she may be ejected from this particular article. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Is already done, that's ok. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

And back again as an unexplained removal.Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

lol, and with an impresive speed! ( fixed it ) GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:13, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Hannah Arendt (2006). Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil. Penguin. pp. 117–118. ISBN 1101007168. Retrieved 16 June 2015. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

Recent reverts

A book published by a scholar is a proper, legitimate source (I don't have it so I can't provide a page number, but that's not a reason to remove it). The statement is clearly attributed in text. Is it opposed because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT or because of some other hidden motive which I haven't been made aware of? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 04:41, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Can you link the WP:DIFF? François Robere (talk) 18:57, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Original removal (based on a flagrant misunderstanding of the sentence), and my revert (which adds the source - as I said, I don't have the book so can't check for the page number but the source is clearly identified in the text and it happens to have been in the list of references already, so adding it was simple business which doesn't warrant a removal even on WP:V grounds - and the other editor didn't go that far, staying to their simple WP:IDONTLIKEIT stance) 198.84.253.202 (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

this tells us nothing about collaboration.Slatersteven (talk) 19:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

It does - it tells "how much people were killed because of collaboration" (I assume there are various estimates for that number, and assuming the source is reliable and not too old, it deserves to be included). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

And, additionally, there is no number currently in the article which gives any estimate of the death toll, except for "30k Poles killed because of attempting to hide Jews from the authorities". 198.84.253.202 (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

No it tells us how many Jews were killed due to antisemitism.Slatersteven (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

And somehow antisemitism in this form would not count as being part of the Holocaust? I mean, can you name any other period in history in which antisemites, anywhere, killed 200k people? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Oh, of course it's WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Insofar as we accept participation in crimes against Polish Jewry in light of the Nazi occupation as collaboration with its racial agenda (and we have RS to establish that) it's obviously relevant, and indeed was part of the earlier text that were split into this article. François Robere (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Killing Jews would be collaborating with the Holocaust. Grabowski is widely cited, andnthe claim repeated by multiple RS, e.g. this. Note Poles were rewarded by thhe Nazis, and Haaertz frames this in the context of As Hunt for the Jews is published in Israel, a debate is raging in Poland about the role of the local population in the Holocaust. At its center is the question of whether the Poles were victims of the Nazis or collaborators with them, and where they are to be placed in terms of rescuers, murderers or bystanders in relation to the fate of their Jewish neighbors..Icewhiz (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree it is complicity in the Holocaust, but that is not the same as collaboration.Slatersteven (talk) 19:21, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

"Complicity: association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act" (source: ), "Collaboration: to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force" (). That's the same thing, no (except for the fact that complicity isn't necessarily with one's enemy, but that's irrelevant to this debate)? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ah no. Complicity is not standing up and doing your "day job" which the Reich takes advatage of. Killing Jews (with or without German blessing) for antisemitic reasons as in Jedwabne pogrom is taking an active part in the Holocaust.Icewhiz (talk) 19:26, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

• Start-Class Poland articles
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• WikiProject Poland articles