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Andrew Davidson

Thewolfchild

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Request concerning Thewolfchild

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

K.e.coffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:08, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Thewolfchild (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Remedies to be enforced

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Battleground_conduct
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Making allegations_against_other_editors

Diffs of edits

The diffs are from Talk:AR-15 style rifle where comments by TWC have created a hostile atmosphere; they were directed at me and other contributors:

1. 06:27, 8 March 2018 Needless personalisation: "I could as the same of you and your wild and false accusations. (...) If someone doesn't agree with what you edit or the way you edit it, do you always take it personally?" (I had posted to TWC's Talk page , which he moved to the article's Talk page creating diff #1).
2. 04:07, 8 March 2018 Aspersions: "...the non-stop POV content you and a couple other users have been dumping onto articles like this..." & "You seem to care more about getting a message out (...) Don't preach guidelines and "neutrality" to me until you are willing to follow the policies & guidelines here yourself..."
3. 07:54, 7 March 2018 Belittling: "Didn't you write an RfC about this? How's that going anyway?"
4. 17:01, 5 March 2018 Aspersions (please scroll to the bottom): "Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have issues with ownership you and some others editors here seem to be asserting over this article".
5. 15:44, 5 March 2018 Accusations of bad faith: "That is not "good faith editing', it's not editing by consensus, the content is not neutral, it's disputed and therefore controversial, and yet it's still there, and now the only "discussions" I'm seeing is these editors insisting that even more WEIGHTy content being added."
6. 00:37, 28 February 2018 Accusatons of bias: "...significant content is also being removed as "promotional", by editors such as "K.e.Coffman", who have clearly taken a position on this issue" (I didn't remove content from the page as "promotional"; in fact, I last edited AR-15 style rifle on 22 February).
7. 18:38, 22 February 2018 Aspersions: "K.e.coffman had no business making a controversial page move (and with such POV-ish reasoning)" & "...his needless page-move-warring and combative POV-attitude...".
8. 02:24, 22 February 2018 Accusations of bias: "All your reasoning for moving it is based on your opinion, which is clearly biased".

Previous sanctions

1. Block log

DS alert

• Alerted about relevant DS on 0:55, 22 February 2018.

Additional comments

Prior to the DS notification, TWC showed similar behaviour at WP:GUNS, directed at me and another contributor: permalink: "repetitive, off-topic nonsense"; "Give it a rest. It's these kind of prechy, off-topic comments..."; "anti-gun editors"; "You're still going on about this?"; "disruptive"; etc. I raised my concerns on his Talk page; my comment was removed with "don't preach guidelines to me until you start following them yourself".

Re: diff #1, another contributor attempted to collapse it as "non-content-related discussion". TWC uncollapsed the comments twice and ; the discussion then proceeded on the editor's Talk page, i.e.: "If I say 'I feel your edits are POV-ish and have an anti-gun tone', that's not an attack".

Notification

Follow-up by K.e.coffman

Sorry, I'm not buying TWC's statement. For example, on 24 February TWC stated on my Talk page: "I haven't even been active on the WP:GUNS page, AR-15 style page or the Village Pump RfC for awhile now. I've moved on to other things. Maybe you should to (or don't. you can do what you like, just know that I'm not interested in being involved)":

Despite a stated desire of not "being involved", TWC edited the Talk page of AR-15 style rifle 40+ times between Feb 24 and now. (I edited the page 11 times, mostly after March 8. I had purposefully stayed away because of high level of activity by TWC there).

Even while this AE was in process, TWC posted the following the Talk page of AR-15: "TBH, I wasn't planning on posting here for awhile (what else is there to say? either people will keep the article neutral or they won't). But given the your comments here, I will reply (...) What I have said, repeatedly, is that any inclusion of such content should be neutral and keep the article balanced.", in 3000 characters: .

What this is telling me is (1) that TWC does not have an intention of abandoning AR-15 and related pages, and (2) he continues to lack self-awareness as to why his editing there may have been problematic. He repeatedly stated his desire for "balance" and for the articles not to get "waaay out of balance", but his actions have been anything but.

TWC continues to bludgeon discussions, now posting possibly mistaken stats to the on-going RfC that's related to this topic: . He's been corrected here:; while his response is not convincing: . TWC's participation in AR-15, firearms and related topics has only sows discord and confusion to this point. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:20, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN: Regarding prior issues with TWC, I'm not aware of any related to firearms, but ANI discussions show thread related to TWC, where he behaved in an inappropriate manner while at ANI: i am thewolfchild; Ongoing harassment (hostility); Polemical use of sandboxes (holding of grudges). This thread Thewolfchild demonstrates harassment, holding of grudges, and lack of appreciation of severity of his actions. It seems incongruent that someone with this experience at ANI would not be aware of behavioural norms on Misplaced Pages. The sum of it is that TWC has not been a net positive in the firearms related discussions.

Dennis Brown and @GoldenRing: Several editors in the past have attempted to consel TWC, but that was rebuffed; sample notes of concern / advice to TWC:

• 19 February 2018: "I'll ask that you moderate your imperious and combative tone when addressing established Misplaced Pages editors."
• 23 February 2018: "I think what Drmies is saying is that you are operating on the basis of your personal agenda, but lack the self-awareness to realize it."
• 23 February 2018: "I would appreciate it if you left those accusations/suggestions/sneers out of your comments."
• 8 March 2018: "Please stop moving conversations from your user talk page to article talk pages." Etc.

I don't see how another piece of advice is going to change TWC's behaviour.

Separately, now that Sandsteinn recused themselves, I wonder if same would be appropriate for Dennis Brown. DB has voted in the same RfC that caused Sandsteinn's recusal. In addition, DB participated in a content discussion related to the topic: "Should be redirecting to the Colt article, since that is their trademark. Most gun familiar people know this, and those that don't know this should learn it...". Both TWC and I took part in the discussion: RfD:AR-15.

Pertaining to the RfC, TWC has inappropriately, whether he realised it or not, attempted to sway the opinion in an on-going discussion. Two editors objected, which should have been his clue:

• "...tallying votes while a discussion is ongoing is not helpful." — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:44, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
• "Creating these is patently disruptive and a form of gaming the consensus building process by trying to steer people's !votes. Don't do it." — SMcCandlish ☏ 12:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Yet, on 14 13 March, TWC added a new tally, which understated the outcome that he opposed (C): showing rebuttal by Dlthewave. Section now located here: permalink. This crosses into either WP:CIR or WP:ADVOCACY, which is another remedy under the present Arb Case: WP:ARBGC#Advocacy. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

@NeilN: Here are the RfC tally edits, both on March 13. TWC adding a updated tally, which (per Dlthewave) understated support for the positions he opposed: . He's been corrected by Dlthewave here: , while TWC's response is not convincing: . The tally was not needed in the first place, as two other editors had pointed out on 28 Feb and 10 March. I found the actions disruptive, bordering on advocacy, and simply unneeded.

For background, my negative interactions with TWC started when I expressed concerns about the proposed venue (WP:GUNS), while TWC strongly advocated the RfC be held there: Use of AR-15 Style Rifles in Mass Shootings. Please also this discussion in the same venue, which preceded the one where I interacted with TWC on: Addition of crime in firearms-related articles, with TWC having participated several times.

See for example from TWC on 17 Feb: "Proposed: close all discussions about the same issue on related articles and have one central discussion here to (hopefully) achieve a single, community-wide consensus. If there is enough support, we'll have the discussion here as an RfC". That's what gives me the impression of ownership / inability to let go of the RfC. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: thank you for reconsidering your potential close. Re: this being one side of a run-of-the-mill content dispute, I've not had multiple editors, over the span of three weeks, advise me to "keep sneers out of my comments" or "moderate my impervious tone". Nor have I removed my user TP comments with rude edit summaries, or, even better, moved them to *article* TP so that I could use them to bash my opponents with, in a public forum. If "sowing discord and confusion" seems too mild, then let me rephrase: it's disruptive, tendentious editing, bullying of opponents, relentless advocacy, and not adhering to the neutral point of view, all to the detriment of other editors and the project overall, and all covered under DS remedies.

@NeilN: Here's more recent behaviour: User_talk:Sipos111#(moved). This discussion took place on Feb 17, before the DS warning, but shows a similar, aggressive pattern of behaviour towards users who disagree with TWC's position; sample: "Oh my gawwwwd... did you really just trot out the "dying kids" card? (and you don't consider this a crusade?)" Drmies gave TWC an informal warning in the same thread, "You best lay off the personal attacks" on 17 February. In a similar fashion, TWC has posted on my page on Feb 22: "I just don't like to see people who's political ideologies and anti-gun passions, that have been inflamed by the recent shooting, taking that rage and disrupting the project with it" and "...someone needs to look out for the project" permalink.

Another example, 22 February: in this rather bizarre and unnecessary edit to the on-going RfC, TWC changed the section name from "Votes" to "Straw-poll". This is the language that TWC prefers to use for vote sections, and my guess is that he was compelled to assert ownership over the process somehow (?). This was part of a pattern of posting a "poll update" section on 24 February, which nobody had asked for, and then updating it, over other editor's objections. He clearly feels ownership of these topics. In short, I've not seen TWC contribute positively in this subject area; so a topic ban would be a net positive to the project.

Coincidently, there was an interesting piece in Hatewatch about how fringe theories are propagated on Misplaced Pages and the challenges that editors in such areas face: Misplaced Pages wars: inside the fight against far-right editors, vandals and sock puppets. It's a good read and hopefully, it shows that editors in these areas need more support from the admin community, not less.

I find the inaction somewhat dispiriting after editors who have been on the receiving end of this behaviour and several admins have spoken out at this AE. All the while, the media continues to cover the AR-15 article controversy; it now crossed over to Israel: Specs In, Mass Shootings Out: How Firearm Enthusiasts Control What You Read About Guns on Misplaced Pages, Haaretz. A topic ban, even if a short one (i.e. a month), would send a stronger message to TWC that such behaviour is not acceptable. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

We have not heard from Dennis Brown on whether they are recusing themselves. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:52, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Thewolfchild

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Thewolfchild

Hello, my first time here, but I’ll my best to help get this resolved. The first thing comes to mind that afaic, this more of content dispute. I’m under the impression that content disputes weren't mediated here, the preferred locations were article talk, Dispute Resolution, AN/I. Anyway, I tried, twice, to pursue resolution with K.e.coffman, which he ignored. When I copied K.e.coffman’s reply to article talk, I did because most of it discussed content, sourcing, supporting guidelines, but as for anything in my comments that have upset him personally, I offered to address that. He didn’t respond so I tried again, specifically;

• "…you noted concerns about one of my replies. If you could point out the exact problem, I'm more than willing to make changes, if this will help move things forward. Thanks."

I pinged him to ensure he aware of this, but again, he didn’t reply. Instead, he waited a full day, came here filed this complaint. This has been contentious issue for many, and some may have gotten caught up in it when it started (a month ago), but I don't think anything there, recently, requires this committee's attention. My position's been neither ‘pro- or anti-gun‘, but instead to push for articles to remain neutral, balanced, encyclopaedic, and collaborative, consensus-based editing. That hadn't been happening. I’d been critical of some of the content thats been edited as well as the way it was edited. He may view these criticisms as “personal attacks”, I don’t see that way, but just the same I’ve already stopped the direct editing criticism and instead posted generalized content concerns.

I’m willing to try resolve disputes, and I’ve already shown that; when Dlthewave advised me of a revert summary he thought inadequate, I posted a reply that explained both the revert and edit summary, and included an apology. I posted to article talk because the reply, with guidelines included, was relevant to the content. (supported by; another revert, and similar changes after). When Dlthewave collapsed my post, I disagreed, for the same reason I posted there the first place. I discussed this on their talk and thought it resolved (he made no further replies, but now he’s posting here, so I don't know) Additionally, there was a minor misinterpretation of reply I posted to BullRangifer, but I made a pre-emptive effort to resolve it and we did.

So, as shown above, I’m willing to work toward resolving disputes. Had K.e.coffman responded, I’m sure that we could’ve resolved his issue also. I’ve been mindful of the concerns expressed, as seen in the examples provided, and reflected my most recent replies. The last editor who’s proposal I disagreed with, replied;

• "Thank you for the polite and well-reasoned responses."

I'm still willing to discuss K.e.coffman's concerns, as I’ve shown, and in hopes of moving forward I haven't raised any counter-complaints (I'm hoping that won’t be necessary, I don‘t want this to drag on), Or, we can just leave things be and move on altogether. Thank you - WOLFchild 16:35, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Follow up response from Thewolfchild #1

Well, I have certainly be following this page closely and I want you all to know that, whether I agree with you or not, I have read all your comments thoroughly and with considered attention. The first item I would like to address is the assertion that there is a "lack of awareness" on my part. That's my fault, I should've been more clear in my initial statement. I am aware that at times my comments are sarcastic and blunt but I didn't think I was really breaking any rule. But instead, I should've been considering other people's feelings. I seem to have genuinely hurt some feelings here and for that I apologize. As per NeilN's comment; no, I rarely edit firearms related articles. I can't remember the last time I did, and beyond that, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find an edit of mine to a firearms related article, or post to a related talk page, that is "POV", "pro-gun" or otherwise controversial. As per Bishonen's comment: no rhetoric, I was really hoping to avoid dragging this out more than needed. But I do have responses to K.e.c' diffs and a few to add as well;

• K.e.coffman's first diff is deliberately misleading. Taken it it's full context, I was replying to a comment of his, and while I was writing it out, he changed the comment. After I posted, he then accused me of "selectively quoting" him, knowing full well he'd changed his comment while I was editing, hence the "false accusation" comment.
• K.e.coffman's second diff is a comment I actually stand behind. While there was still an active RfC at the Village Pump about whether or not to add information about mass-shootings to firearms-related articles, K.e.coffman was doing just that. Adding controversial content, no proposal, no discussion and certainly no consensus. He added a new section to "AR-15 style rifle" titled; "Use in mass-shootings". This became the subject of dispute as noted here
• K.e.coffman's third diff; yes I made a comment to Dlthewave about the above noted RfC. I had advised him to let someone else write it since he had already participated in related straw-polls, but he did anyway. I don't think it was particularly well written, as evidenced by the widely varied !votes, the complaints from other editors, and the fact that he added another option, (at K.e.coffman's request btw) a week later, after a couple dozen editors had already contributed. (It's not surprising that Dlthewave posted here and was critical of the fact that I merely posted some (hidden) numbers).
• K.e.coffman's fourth diff; of course he wants you to "scroll all the way to the bottom" to see where I "cast aspersions with an ownership accusation". He doesn't want you to see that I'm actually responding to an ownership accusation from BullRangifer. However, instead of making a big deal about it, I chose a tongue-in-cheek reply and then moved on. So did, apparently, BullRangifer.
• K.e.coffman's fifth diff; Again is a comment I stand behind. I didn't use the words "bad faith" an it's a pretty weak accusation when I am pointing out facts.
• K.e.coffman's sixth diff: has me pointing out that he had removed content as "promotional". He states: I didn't remove content from the page as "promotional". Actually, he did. So now he's caught in a lie, while calling me a liar.
• K.e.coffman's seventh diff; Ah... the page move. While the title of the article then known as "Modern sporting rifle" (since it's creation in 2012) was actively being discussed and debated, K.e.coffman suddenly and arbitrarily moved the page to "AR-15 style rifle", without any consensus for doing so, and knowing full well it was a controversial, and likely to be contested page move. (I think it was argued it was allowed as a BOLD move, despite all the reasons not to). I in fact did contest the move and reverted it, (which as a disputed or bold move, it can be reverted), and I then posted to the article talk page about it. However, instead of engaging in discussion, or posting an RM, K.e.coffman moved the page again (that is move-warring) I moved it back and immediately posted an RM myself (as he still hadn't done so), which also resulted in 7-day protection for the page. Over two dozen editors participated in the RM discussion who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity. I'm not sure why he would want to raise this very bommer-rangy-type incident.
• K.e.coffman's eighth and final diff: Yes, I accused him of bias. Still do. He has been very clear with his comments and his edits (and his pages moves) what side of the fence of his opinions are on. But again, that cuts two ways. The reason the RfC was moved to the Village Pump, even though 3 talk pages discussion were closed and directed to the firearms project talk page, where discussion had begun was because because K.e.coffman claimed it wasn't possible to have a neutral discussion at the Firearms Project talk page, basically accusing everyone there of bias because of a single comment. He further went on to claim that I was a "Firearms Project member" when in fact I am not and never have been, and I feel this has lent to the perception that I am "pro-gun".

Now, does this mean I'm looking for sanctions on K.e.coffman? That's up to the admins. Does this mean my apology was wasn't real? Of course not. But, all that aside, I really did want to a balanced article. I actually do support the addition of a linked note regarding a shooting incident on the page of the firearm that was involved. For those of you claiming I'm completely against the inclusion of any mass-shooting info, please re-read my comments and check my straw poll entries. But just the same, I may have pushed so hard for an NPOV, neutral article, that I came across as someone with a POV agenda anyway. I made comments too often, I made comments that were too long, and I made comments that were not as civil as they should of been. For that, I again offer my apologies. I've come to realize that this a learning experience and with these lessons will be taking more away from this than I would with a warning. Sorry about the length. Thanks for hearing me out. - WOLFchild 04:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Follow up response from Thewolfchild #2:

Hello, this is my third, and hopefully final post here. I see that it appears NeilN is preparing to "write up a warning" sometime today. I take it this warning is for me, but I have to wonder if any of the other participants here will also be warned for behaviours that have been brought to light? Some other points I'd like to make;

• I am disappointed in K.e.coffman's actions and general attitude here. He has completely ignored all overtures made towards settling of differences. I made an effort to resolve this dispute before this report was even filed. It was ignored. I tried to address the concerns here about self-awareness, apologized for any offence given, acknowledged the length, tone and repetition of some of my posts... but again, all ignored or dismissed as lies. In fact, he's gone in the opposite direction, displaying an appalling level of bad faith with more accusations (some on his second list being as questionable as some of the ones on his first).
• With respect to that first list of diffs that formed the initial complaint here, I hope that NeilN has paid close attention to my response to those diffs on a point-by-point basis, in my second post here. I feel it puts this report in a somewhat different light.
• In regards to K.e.coffman's second list of complaints;
  • Paragraph one: basically ingratiating himself onto Goldenring while sliding in a whole slew of unproven accusations.
  • Paragraph two: pointing out (as "recent", but actually from over a month ago, and weeks before this report was even filed) the talk page of a SPA who started POV edit-warring right on day one with his first edits, then went on to state he's only here to educate the public about evil guns makers, fully admitted he has no interest in actually being an editor here and has nor edited since. Here, K.e.coffman points out Drmies response to me as a "warning", but fails to mention that shortly after Drmies retracted his comments and apologized. Drmies also warned the SPA. I'd since forgotten about this, I'm sure Drmies has as well, or would like to, and I'm sure he appreciates K.e.coffman dragging it all up again as a misrepresentation to serve his own ends. This is the same kind of disingenuous "interpretation" used to create this report.
  • Paragraph three: A long, drawn out, confused and confusing, accusation of "ownership", among other things, all based on my changing a sub-heading from "Votes" to "Straw poll". Seriously?
  • Paragraph four: Brings up something about "Hatewatch". "fringe theories", "vandalism" and "sock-puppetry"... none of which has anything to do with me in the slightest. These are some very thinly-veiled accusations that I'd like to see further explained on how it relates to me, with proof, or retracted entirely.
  • Paragraph five: Bringing up the "media controversy" surrounding the AR-15, as if this is all somehow my fault. What does this have to do with this report?
• Along with all this "piling on" and "padding", he has also made a significant push to have Dennis Brown "recuse" himself as "involved". Well, heaven forbid any poor admin who doesn't immediately bow-down and agree with K.e.coffman. This action is grossly out of line and K.e.coffman owes Dennis an immediate and unequivocal apology.
  • If we're going to raise the issue of admins that might be "involved", then look no further than MastCell, who has not once, but twice, linked to an actual dispute between us, very recently and on this very subject, on K.e.coffman's talk page. No surprise he's been the most vocal admin here pushing for sanctions, and if he had his way, I'm sure it would be more than a topic ban. He so adamantly claims to know what I think, feel and believe, and yet has it so wrong. How is this "uninvolved"...?
  • With all due respect to Drmies, he has been very involved in this subject, and with me, since the beginning, and while I believe his comments aren't personal, I also believe they are in the wrong section.
  • Lastly, I'm not sure how to take Bishonen's comments, with repeated references to "Americans", "American culture", "American gun culture", etc., etc.,... does he think I'm American? That I don't know, but I do know that he think's I'm a "gun nut" (which I find offensive) and considering the tone of his comments, how can any administrative decisions or suggestions be considered neutral?
• Meanwhile I've been accused of "edit-warring" by BullRangifer (but no diffs), and repeatedly accused of being "pro-gun" and trying to "hide any mention of mass-shootings in any firearm article" which is completely and utterly wrong. I'm on record as calling for the inclusion of notations of mass-shootings, but also for limitations to keep articles balanced.
• I even suggested the creation of an article about the AR-15 and it's prominent use in mass-shootings (in my !vote in the RfC "straw poll" at WP:VP, where I clearly supported the inclusion on mass-shooting info). The kind of article that could include any and all possible, notable, details, as well related laws, passed or proposed, gun-control efforts, a detailed listing of every mass-shooting, and any other related, notable content. That way, the articles about firearms can be about the subject, not it's mis-use and subjective political turmoil. That suggestion was also ignored.
• For some-reason, we have an RfC on the inclusion of mass-shooting content, and before that's even complete, such content is continually being added anyway by K.e.coffman, BullRangifer, Dlthwwave et al. I asked that we wait for the RfC to conclude, and that's somehow considered "disruptive", "POV" or "pro-gun"?
• I'd also like to point out that not all my comments were requests to wait for the RfC to conclude. Some were about the very politically weighty and hotly debated term "assault-rifle", (and "assault-weapon", and K.e.coffman's proposed "assault-style-rifle"). Some of my posts were about adding content regarding the legitimate use of these rifles (also largely ignored), and some of my posts were replies to comments addressed directly to me. There needs to be some context injected into this whole drama.
• As it is, I've basically left the Talk:AR-15 style rifle page and all firearms related articles since the beginning of this report. Mostly because I've said what I needed to say and I don't typically edit that area of the project anyway. But I see in the meantime, that very talk page, and article, are now a hot-bed of activity, with numerous posts and edits being made by K.e.coffman, BullRangifer, et al. (but I suppose that's somehow ok now...?)
• Lastly, as I write this, I see BullRangifer has just added his huge post about the "pro-gun cabal" here on Misplaced Pages. I think such nonsense needs to be supported by clear cut proof, or removed. My posting history at all firearms related projects speaks for itself. I barely touched any articles and kept most of my posts to a couple talk pages, mostly Talk:AR-15 style rifle, where I admittedly got caught up in the debate, just like several other editors. I have since disengaged. It's an area I rarely edit anyway, so I don't have any intentions of returning to any full on debates. As for the "cabal", check the user-interaction tool, I don't even know those guys. I have a vague recollection of discussing a military equipment list with "Niteshift36" years ago. I don't think I've ever interacted with "Springee" before this. I've seen "Trekphiler" post in the same area, but I don't recall any direct interaction and I've never heard of "Limpcash". This is more piling on and padding in an effort to get rid of any vocal opponents to BullRangifer's and K.e.coffman's somewhat pov-ish editing. Which in the end makes this all largely a content dispute.
• Anyways, sorry for the length, and thanks again for hearing me out. - WOLFchild 19:39, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Question for closing admin

NeilN Hi, can I ask some questions? (I'm gonna ask some questions) But first, I would like to thank you for your moderate, and I dare say, professional responses and attitude here thus far. Now, abut this "warning";

1. What does "proposed" mean?
2. Point number #1 is acknowledged and accepted, but as to point #2, can you clarify what you mean by "clerk a... discussion" ?
3. Point number #3 appears to be a repeat of point #2, (though I do take your meaning about repetitive posts), was this deliberate?
4. Point number #4, can you clarify... all of it? (sorry, I don't see where conflict with consensus or the ridicule of external events or scrutiny became issues)
5. I appreciate your remarks about acknowledging a consensus, or lack thereof, of contributing admins. That said, I see that of the seven admins that posted here; one was clearly involved, one was clearly involved and biased, one has questionable neutrality and open hostility to the subject of the report, one recused himself, and of the three remaining admins that were free and clear of any controversy here, there was by all appearances a distinct consensus of "close with no action". How much impact does all this have on your final decision?
6. My understanding of this process was that;
   1. Content disputes are not dealt with here, and seeing just how much of this involved a content dispute, how much impact will that have on your final decision?
   2. The behaviour of all named and/or contributing parties is subject to scrutiny and action. As the behavior of at least two parties to this report, (aside from the subject), clearly violated not just DS, but WP P&G, will there be any other warnings issued or, other administrative action taken?

That concludes my questions at this point. I again thank you for your attention and patience. - WOLFchild 02:03, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Response to closing admin

@NeilN: Thank you for your reply. It answers some questions, but not others, and I would like to clarify a couple points;

• I didn't realize you were referring to the RfC, I thought you meant the "AR-15 style rifle" talk page. My intention was not to sway or otherwise interfere with consensus at the RfC, but to show how difficult it may be to form consensus in the first place with such widely varied, and even vague, responses. I didn't realize there was a policy against this (is there?) and had seen it done before without any controversy. Once an objection was raised and the summary collapsed, I didn't dispute it.
  • My last update there was actually to accommodate the request of another editor, but once it was contested, accusations made and the issue brought here to pile on to the existing complaint, you'll note I stopped posting at both the RfC, and it's talk page, completely.
  • You said; "If discussion needs to be cleaned up or reformatted somehow, leave it to someone else". Who? And either "clean up and reformatting" is allowed or it isn't, so I'm not entirely clear on what this part of the warning is about. (not necessarily contesting it, just not clear)
• I'm still not sure why a point in your warning was duplicated. (but the point is taken) (Nevermind. I get it now. wolf 23:07, 20 March 2018 (UTC))
• Thank you for at least acknowledging that some admins here were in some way "involved". While some of the admin responses are not compatible with the posted advisory; "This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.", I won't contest them at this point, as I'm satisfied you are aware of them.
  • Re: your added comment; - I didn't contend that any admins here were involved based on their responses here, but on their actions outside of here, nor claim any bias based solely on recommendations made here, but other comments, as I (thought I had) demonstrated in my previous posts. I also said of the uninvolved admins, there was an "appearance of a consensus", but I'm not attributing any specific comments to anyone that they didn't actually make. If any of this has been interpreted as otherwise, I will accept responsibility for that, please accept my apologies for not being clear on either of these points.
• My concern regarding other parties here is that several items posted in support of this complaint were shown to be deliberately and patently false, and were clearly added to intentionally mislead responding admins and any other unaware parties. While I have acknowledged, and accept, that lengthy, repetitive and/or churlish talk page posts are not the best way to contribute to a discussion, nor conducive to forming consensus, and would not dispute any warning regarding such posts, I wouldn't think it to be appropriate for there be a perception that posting false allegations, in violation of policy, is tolerated.

But with that said, I will accept your final word on the matter, and again thank you for your attention here. - WOLFchild 19:50, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Dlthewave

As one of the "other contributors" mentioned above I agree with K.e.coffman's description of the situation. I would also add that Thewolfchild's unnecessarily long comments are disruptive to the discussion process. Two particular examples are and from the list of diffs. Although he does arguably address a previous comment, he goes off on so many tangents that the discussion is no longer focused on a specific ways to improve the article. These comments can be seen in context at permalink. –dlthewave ☎ 04:26, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Pinging admins @Dennis Brown, MastCell, GoldenRing, NeilN, Bishonen, and Sandstein:. There hasn't been any activity here for a few days, and plenty of information has been presented. Could we move toward a close? –dlthewave ☎ 03:46, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by BullRangifer

This should also be seen in light of press reports discussing how a "group of pro-gun Misplaced Pages editors tried to hide the true number of mass shootings associated with the AR-15 rifle." (Newsweek) There is extensive wikilawyering and gaming the sytem going on. It's persistent, extremely aggressive and personal, and violates policies. Refusal to allow mention of mass shootings using the AR-15 in the AR-15 article is an obvious one. The very existence of that lack proves there is a serious problem and requires no further evidence or diffs. Just look. Something needs to be done. Here are some articles. It started with The Verge:

• How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages’s AR-15 page. After Parkland, gun control information was strangely hard to find. The Verge

• Pro-gun Group Edited AR-15 Misplaced Pages Page to Hide Mass Shootings, Newsweek

• A gun group has been editing Misplaced Pages's firearms pages to sanitize mass shootings, for months. Daily Kos

BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:16, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Replies to:

• NeilN, you get exactly what I was trying to say, especially in light of the content I added above. Maybe a bit too emotionally, but that was the gist of my intent. ("...there is not a lot of difference for me between BullRangifer's comment and an experienced editor telling a SPA editing a politician's bio, "I don't think your boss would thank you for drawing community attention to and possible media interest in your whitewashing of his biography.")

• Dennis Brown, I would consider it an honor to get a trout from you. I'm sure I have deserved many throughout my years here.
  All kidding aside, when one considers my entry above, my emotional (yes, it was deep frustration) comment should be seen in that light. The gun articles, especially the AR-15 one, are under observation and scrutiny by the press, public, and NRA. This fire must be extinguished firmly.
  I have no idea if there are any paid NRA editors here, but there are several, especially Thewolfchild, who defend the article tooth and nail, and try to keep out the very mention of mass shootings using the AR-15. Those editors carry water for the NRA and use specious arguments to keep any such mention out or to a minimum. It's a miracle that there is any content on the subject now, and it is in danger all the time. When one considers due weight among RS, that section should be larger and better.

The AR-15 style rifle article is the main article on the subject, so, per WP:SPINOFF, the section on mass shootings should have a "main" link and a summary of how the AR-15 is used in mass shootings, not just a short listing of the shootings.

Thewolfchild's idea of due weight on the subject is evident in these comments:

• This one (their first on that talk page) closes the door for such content, because, apparently to them, even a morsel on the subject is somehow undue weight, so better to violate NPOV by banning such content. That (mistaken) attitude means the article on Mass shootings is a forbidden POV fork, because that's the essence of a POV fork...banishing unwanted content to "somewhere else than here":

• "Oppose - mass-shootings already have their own articles, all relevant info is, or should be, in that page and not needlessly duplicated on other articles. If we start adding info about just one shooting incident to one tenuously-connected article, we'll be opening a literal Pandora's box. We'll have to add info on numerous firearms-related incidents to multiple articles, throwing many of them out of balance."

• After a lot about statistics and other stuff in several comments, this gem shows their attitude toward the proper weight of any mass shooting related content. They fail to recognize that due weight is determined by RS coverage, not by number of guns used legally vs illegally. The few mosquitoes that bite get attention, not the millions that remain unnoticed.:

• There is already too much info in this article for what amounts to less than .0000005% illiegal misuse of this tool.

• The log for the AR-15 article shows Thewolfchild edit warring in favor of a title that is an advertising slogan/marketing term (a form of whitewashing), thus setting the tone that this is a peaceful tool, not "the favorite weapon for mass shootings". I'm not going to analyze whether the moves were done properly or not, but the title "Modern sporting rifle" is in fact a marketing slogan deliberately chosen by manufacturers to rebrand the unfortunate image of the AR-15. Editors should not be party to such rebranding efforts. The slogan is mentioned in the article, and that's enough.

SUMMARY: The article should have a better section on the use of the AR-15 style rifles in mass shootings, and some editors are blocking that strongly enough that I quickly abandoned the thought of trying. That's my concern. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:29, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Pinging the relevant admins. @Dennis Brown, MastCell, Sandstein, GoldenRing, NeilN, and Bishonen: -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown, I'm not sure what you're referring to here ("YOU may feel that those edits should be made,..."), because I'm not asking for any edits to be made. Neither is this about "hash out controversial topics". Neither of those subjects belong here.

No, this is about something much more principle and basic. It's about total failure to understand NPOV and due weight, to the point of controlling an article so much that news media noticed it. That kind of control must not be allowed, and normal editing procedures and "hashing it out" apparently hasn't worked very well. A topic block, even a shorter one, would send a needed signal to all editors involved in this type of ownership behavior.

As far as my behavior in that one instance, you have either not read what has been written by NeilN and myself (see above), or you are not AGF. I trust it is the first and you'll amend your comment, because I doubt you are deliberately trying to offend me. We both explained what was going on. Under the circumstances, with media looking over our shoulders, a reminder needed to be given, and that's all I was doing (I was totally new to that article). (The edit at the time ended up getting sorted out and has not been brought up here BY ME as an issue. I was surprised someone brought it up and tried to make something out of it that it wasn't.) -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:52, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• GoldenRing, you write:

• "Thewolfchild clearly opposes inclusion of information on the use of AR-15-style weapons in mass shootings on that page; that is not an unreasonable position for an editor to take (and certainly not a sanctionable one); there is, after all, an RfC currently open on this very question."

Actually it is a VERY "unreasonable position for an editor". Period. That situation should only exist with a newbie. It's an attitude which openly violates NPOV and due weight by refusing to let RS determine content. It's gross censorship. An RfC to decide that question shouldn't be necessary. (FYI, I haven' looked at it.)

The "degree" and "amount" to which one allows such content can be discussed, but not "whether" it's included, and that's where TWC goes so wrong.

TWC isn't even denying that there is a huge amount of RS coverage of exactly that intersection of AR-15s used in mass shootings, and yet, in the face of that fact, has been blocking attempts to include mention. I'm amazed we're even discussing this on a page where admins speak out and sets a bad precedence. Such ideas should be blasted out of the water without further reflection, and the door to such thinking immediately and firmly shut. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:37, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown, this isn't about having a POV or minority POV. That's okay. It actually IS about "editing warring to only present one side in an article." That's exactly what TWC has been doing and is advocating. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:06, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• Further evidence of the systemic problem of a total wall against all mention of AR-15 type rifles in connection with mass shootings. Even one, extremely well-sourced, sentence is not allowed. I suspect that the editor who did that should get a DS notification and warning on their talk page. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:00, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Follow-up by BullRangifer. Misplaced Pages gun nuts in the news

This is in the same vein as my initial comments here. It directly involves TWC and several other editors not part of this procedure. Their basic behavioral problem is the same - an organized cabal of editors violating policies to further a political goal. Consider it "further information". The project and cabal needs to be officially warned, broken up, censured, held under observation....whatever it takes to minimize this organized effort.

Misplaced Pages gun nuts in the news
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Misplaced Pages has been getting some embarrassing coverage because of the gross policy violations of a real cabal of pro-gun Misplaced Pages editors from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms who edit gun-related articles. Newsweek discusses how this "group of pro-gun Misplaced Pages editors tried to hide the true number of mass shootings associated with the AR-15 rifle," and certain editors are named and/or quoted: Niteshift36 Thewolfchild Springee Trekphiler Limpscash Their stonewalling serves to protect the National Rifle Association and AR-15 style rifles by erecting a wall between them and Mass shootings in the United States. Their efforts have succeeded so well at keeping the subjects separated that the media has noticed. There is extensive wikilawyering and gaming the sytem going on. It's persistent, extremely aggressive and personal, and violates policies. Refusal to allow mention of mass shootings using the AR-15 in the AR-15 style rifle and Mass shootings in the United States articles has been obvious. The very existence of that lack proves there is a serious problem and requires no further evidence or diffs. Only recently (March 16) has it been grudgingly allowed in the Mass shootings and AR-15 style rifle articles after considerable pressure, warnings, and threats of topic bans from some courageous administrators. That should not have been necessary. Springee has been part of a collaborative effort to include proper material, so they should, in all fairness, get credit for that. Here are some of those articles: The adolescent cult of the AR-15, The Week Discusses Niteshift36 extensively How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages’s AR-15 page. After Parkland, gun control information was strangely hard to find. The Verge Discusses several editors and comments: Thewolfchild's comment Trekphiler's comment Limpscash's comment Springee's comment Pro-gun Group Edited AR-15 Misplaced Pages Page to Hide Mass Shootings, Newsweek "WP: Firearms members coordinated their opposition to the inclusion of any mass-shooting coverage, instead limiting information to the technical details of the weapon." Discusses several editors and comments: Thewolfchild's comment Springee's comment Specs in, mass shootings out: How firearm enthusiasts control what you read about guns on Misplaced Pages, Haaretz Some articles about the AR-15 What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns, The Atlantic The AR-15, the gun behind some of the worst mass shootings in America, explained, Vox This fascinating article isn't about Misplaced Pages and guns, but is research findings about gun ownership (just storing here) Why Are White Men Stockpiling Guns? "Research suggests it's largely because they're anxious about their ability to protect their families, insecure about their place in the job market and beset by racial fears." References Walther, Matthew (November 7, 2017). "The adolescent cult of the AR-15". The Week. Retrieved March 17, 2018. Brandom, Russell (March 6, 2018). "How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages's AR-15 page". The Verge. Retrieved March 17, 2018. Brennan, David (March 7, 2018). "A pro-gun group edited the AR-15 Misplaced Pages page to hide the extent of mass shootings associated with the rifle". Newsweek. Retrieved March 17, 2018. Benjakob, Omer (March 15, 2018). "Specs in, mass shootings out: How firearm enthusiasts control what you read about guns on Misplaced Pages". Haaretz. Retrieved March 17, 2018. Sher, Heather (March 12, 2018). "What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns". The Atlantic. Retrieved March 18, 2018. Nelson, Libby (June 14, 2016). "The AR-15, the gun behind some of the worst mass shootings in America, explained". Vox. Retrieved March 18, 2018. Smith, Jeremy Adam (March 14, 2018). "Why Are White Men Stockpiling Guns?". Scientific American. Retrieved March 19, 2018. Press template used for talk pages at AR-15 style rifle and Mass shootings This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Russell Brandom (March 6, 2018). "How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages's AR-15 page". The Verge. Retrieved March 18, 2018. For months before Parkland, information on generic AR-15 models was relegated to the Modern Sporting Rifles entry, which detailed various models and after-market additions, but made no mention of mass shootings or other gun control efforts. Matthew Walther (November 7, 2017). "The adolescent cult of the AR-15". The Week. Retrieved March 18, 2018. (An extensive description of one named editor's efforts to skew content.) David Brennan (March 7, 2018). "A pro-gun group edited the AR-15 Misplaced Pages page to hide the extent of mass shootings associated with the rifle". Newsweek. Retrieved March 18, 2018. A group of pro-gun Misplaced Pages editors tried to hide the true number of mass shootings associated with the AR-15 rifle in the aftermath of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida. Omer Benjakob (March 18, 2018). "Gun Enthusiasts Are Waging a War of Attrition on Misplaced Pages, and It Looks Like They're Winning". Haaretz. Retrieved March 18, 2018. ...how a small and dedicated group of gun enthusiasts managed to shape the article to fit their agenda, in a case that sheds light on how political interests groups can easily coalesce on Misplaced Pages.

Reply to PacMecEng

PackMecEng, you make a very good point about WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (RGW), because that really lies at the bottom of this. RGW refers to editors who misuse Misplaced Pages to fix problems and injustices ("wrongs") they see in the real world, outside of Misplaced Pages. That's exactly what this cabal of editors has been doing. They have sought to control and tailor the messaging in gun-related articles to ensure that Misplaced Pages's "message to the world" was never unfavorable to the NRA or AR-15 types rifles. That's not what editors are supposed to do, and the media has noticed what's been happening here. I hope we won't see anymore of this. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mandruss

I am uninvolved in the content issues, but on 19 February I somehow ran across behavior that I felt needed to be called out, and I did so. I think I'm the "another contributor" mentioned at "Additional comments" and my one comment can be seen at that "permalink". I believe that my characterization "imperious and combative tone" is supported by that brief exchange. Beyond saying that I feel that tolerance of such behavior is bad for the project, I have nothing to add. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:02, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: - a little friction is sometimes beneficial to hash out controversial topics. - I would be very interested to see an example of how misapplication of WP:AGF against a debate opponent while violating AGF oneself, or how language like do you even know that means? ... This discussion has barely begun and you're already derailing it with repetitive, off-topic nonsense. ... Stop this already. ... Oh puh-leeeze. ... you and your companion ... blah, blah. blah. Give it a rest. It's these kind of prechy, off-topic comments that constantly derail any meaningful discussion. You've contributed nothing to the topic at hand and the only purpose of this, your sole contribution here, is to scold me. has ever helped to hash out a controversial topic. In my view it has the opposite effect. This is quite different from healthy and constructive heated debate—it's about common respect for fellow established editors. Excuse, minimize, and forgive if you must, but please don't call this in any way "beneficial" to this project. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:23, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Springee

I'm going to start with a disclaimer: I'm involved with the topics and from an editorial/content POV largely agree with Thewolfchild. That also means I've largely disagreed with most of the other involved editors. I think TWC is frustrated with the deluge of edits that seem to be POV driven. I generally agree with the scope concerns that TWC seems to have. There is definitely a content dispute element here. BUT... I think all the editors here, are only pushing what they view as good improvements and pushing to increase the part of the content they feel is most significant with respect to the topic. I've seen some failures to AGF on both sides with claims of tarring, white washing, advocacy etc. I'm sure much of that comes down to this being a topic that means different things to different people. A shooting enthusiast is far more likely to see the technical and mechanical details etc as the significant part of the article. The criminal use part is something that should be mentioned then directed off to the primary articles on that subject. Others feel the significant information is the criminal use, the rest is just stuff only the gun nuts care about. Both simply reflect the editor's honest POV. It also doesn't help that the articles have been subject to many edits that are little more than vandalism. We also have the inflammatory yet factually questionable article in the Verge (mentioned by @MastCell: ). I suspect most involved editors were, as I was, asked by the author a nebulous question just 24 hours before the article went out. I didn't reply. The resulting article was just a poor as I expected it would be and gets the fundamentals wrong in a way that allows for a good conspiracy tail rather than something that represents a series of editorial discussions that go back perhaps 2 years. In the end we have an editing environment that is ripe for discontent. I think TWC needs to tone it down but I don't think this is something that needs more than a warning. Again, disclaimer, I'm an involved editor and have generally agreed with TWC's POV on the articles. Springee (talk) 02:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by James J. Lambden

Springee and Dennis Brown have it right. This dispute is between editors advocating a technical focus and a political focus. The majority of Ford Bronco coverage in RS is in the context of the O.J. Simpson chase, which only constitutes a small portion of our Bronco article. In fact that article follows the guidelines established at WikiProject Firearms: In order for a criminal use to be notable enough for inclusion in the article on the gun used, it must meet some criteria. For instance if its notoriety greatly increased. Whether we should follow that guidance here is debatable but it's a reasonable debate and editors should not be topic-banned for advocating either position. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:50, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by PackMecEng

Since one of my reverts was brought up here by BullRangifer for some reason and subsequently warned about a topic ban by Bishonen for tendentious editing I should probably respond. My revert here was in relation to undue weight for that specific type of gun in mass shootings which was in keeping with the discussion on that talk page Talk:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States#Type_of_guns_used_in_mass_shootings here. With BullRangifer opening a discussion right after my revert to talk about the issue, it is rather insulting to be labeled tendentious for going by previous talk discussions and participating in a new discussion after it was challenged. PackMecEng (talk) 18:32, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

To add on my comment, looking at the subsequent edit history of BullRangifer the tendentious charge becomes a little absurd.

First the badgering on my talk page after the warning, and things like this "Let's face it, any RfCs, essays, and local consensus among the usual editors there which say otherwise are against policies and should be ignored" are a real issues and not conclusive to collaborative work.

Then off to the other person who agreed the edit was bad, head to their page and threaten them as well here. "That means the warning above is a freebie. You are dancing on very thin ice."

I also like on the talk page pinging anyone they think might be sympathetic to force their pov here.

Finally canvasing the issue on another other talk page here and this page as well.

This kind of bludgeoning, threats, and badgering are at best unhelpful and disruptive to collaborative editing. Also just to give a little closure someone came by with a decent rewrite everyone agreed with based on the talk page discussions so content matter is settled. PackMecEng (talk) 14:27, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

See above WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS comment to illustrate my point. PackMecEng (talk) 14:28, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by IP

Is it really acceptable in an enforcement request for someone to refer to other users as "Misplaced Pages gun nuts," using even stronger language against Wikipedians than the sources he's discussing? 137.71.23.54 (talk) 12:14, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Result concerning Thewolfchild

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I just don't see a reason to swing the ban hammer here. In a perfect world, Wolf would be more concise and bit less excited, and perhaps they would be a little more polite sometimes, but being passionate about something isn't ban-worthy. If I were the other editors, yes, I might be a little annoyed at times but that is true on any hot topic page. Looking the diffs in their full context, I see spirited debate on both sides, maybe a little boundary pushing but I don't see any bright lines crossed. The long block log and the magazine articles don't really apply here. Looking at Talk:AR-15 style rifle, I see that Wolff had replied about twice as much as K.e.coffman, which really isn't enough to be considered bludgeoning. As he seems to be in the minority on that page, that makes me more understanding of the extra edits, and less prone to just banhammer him without clear evidence of disruption. Controversial topics are going to have friction on the talk page, this can't be avoided, even if it can be managed. I recommend closing with no action, other than to recommend that Wolf pull back a bit and go the extra mile here to avoid rambling on so much, and to avoid incivility. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:03, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
• I'm sorry, Dennis, but I can't agree with you about closing with no action. There is a real problem here. The diffs and discussions linked by K.e. coffman show a pretty evident battleground attitude. Thewolfchild's actions (and, to a lesser extent, those of other WikiProject members) have been described as an effort to subvert WP:NPOV by downplaying material linking AR-15-style weapons to mass shootings. That description seems entirely plausible, having reviewed the editing in question. External reliable sources have already come to the same conclusion (see BullRangifer's statement). So these actions not only subvert fundamental content policies (by stonewalling appropriately sourced content in the service of an evident political agenda), but also have brought Misplaced Pages into disrepute. (I don't attach a lot of weight to DailyKos, any more than I would to a partisan website from the other end of the political spectrum, but the pieces in the other two sources are concerning).

  If this were an isolated incident, then I think a warning would be appropriate. But it looks like Thewolfchild has been blocked 6 previous times, for various combinations of edit-warring, personal attacks, "incendiary" and combative behavior, and so on. He was indefinitely blocked, in fact, and let off with the promise of good behavior, in 2012. In other words, he used up his last chance six years ago, and some more last chances after that. So I don't see this as an opportunity to give him one more last chance.

  There's a well-documented active conduct issue here, and a well-documented pattern of similar behavior stretching back at least 6 years. There's also absolutely zero evidence that Thewolfchild has any insight into the problem, and thus zero reason to expect improvement in his conduct. (His responses in this discussion were particularly disappointing in this regard.

  When an article is under discretionary sanctions, we should be trying to raise the bar and hold editors to appropriate standards, not finding reasons to give disruptive editors a 7th "last chance". I don't think "no action" is acceptable. Given the track record here, a warning is meaningless, and tantamount to "no action". I would favor an indefinite topic ban from firearms-related material, which could be appealed in 6 months. MastCell  22:46, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

  • There is a history of problem behavior, but what I don't see is recent behavior that is ban-worthy. It isn't about giving another chance, it's about accepting there is going to be some disagreement on the talk pages. I don't see edit warring, I don't see personal attacks, so I am not so likely to get involved. There is a fine line between protecting the integrity of the process, and being a school marm. I don't think using DS tools for relatively minor issues is helping the encyclopedia. And an indef topic block ban where someone has never been topic blocked banned seems excessive, to say the least. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:28, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
    • Thewolfchild has been blocked 6 times already, including an indefinite block. An indefinite topic ban would be neither the first sanction he’s received, nor the harshest. I therefore don’t see it as “excessive”. As for being a “school marm”, I can tell you first-hand—as someone with extensive experience editing contentious topics—that this sort of behavior is far more damaging than you seem to realize when you dismiss it as “minor”. MastCell  21:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
      • But in the issue at hand, with the diffs provided, there isn't a major issue. Some minor incivility but no worse than the others, and an obvious POV but haven't opinions on social issues isn't against against policies, bad editing is, and even that isn't being called into question here, just his behavior. GoldenRing sums it up well below. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:27, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
• @Dennis Brown: We don't have anything called "topic blocks", but we do have topic bans. – My view is somewhere in between the two opinions above. While I agree that systematic tendentious editing to make Misplaced Pages non-neutral is sanctionable, that's not what the evidence concerning Thewolfchild before us establishes, and any AE cases on such a basis need to be very clear-cut to prevent AE from interfering in content disputes. But what is before us is evidence of confrontative, battleground-like conduct by Thewolfchild. Still, it is less serious than many other cases we see here at AE, many of the diffs do seem to be related to content issues rather than purely personal disagreements, and Thewolfchild's response is, while noncommittal and overlong, at least indicative of some recognition that their conduct might not be perfect. I would close this with a logged warning to Thewolfchild to observe WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and related conduct policies. Sandstein 09:38, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
• Having read about 4/5 of the linked talk page, I'm not seeing a case for sanctions here. Yes, Thewolfchild has a clear POV but much of their frustration is with editors who make edits to the article and ignore the ongoing discussions about the same or similar material. It's a fair point. They do sometimes tread the edges of personalising the discussion but, IMO, only at the very mildest end of things. At the other end, sections such as this are IMO examples of very good editor behaviour. The only real problem I'm seeing is the voluminous and tangential nature of some of Thewolfchild's comments and I'd advise them to keep more on-track, but again it's not sanction-worthy at this point.On a side note, the worst thing I'm seeing on that TP is this comment by User:BullRangifer and I'd like to hear what they have to say about it. It looks pretty unacceptable to me. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
• I largely agree with Sandstein - Thewolfchild needs to tone it down a bit. I don't see anything sanctionable or warning-worthy about BullRangifer's comment. --NeilN 13:51, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

• Nor do I, unless one considers the invocation of the NRA's wrath a legal or physical threat, but this seems far-fetched to me. Sandstein 14:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I can't see any way of interpreting that comment that doesn't amount to, "Let my edit stand or else!" It's clearly intended to have a chilling effect on other editors. And yes, if someone threatened me with the NRA I'd take it as a physical threat. GoldenRing (talk) 16:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't see that. At all. --NeilN 17:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't see BullRangifer's comment as actionable by itself, but I do see it as unnecessarily combative and " I fear for the poor editor who is responsible, because the NRA won't be happy that they have drawn attention to the issue." as particularly trout-worthy. Worse than what I was seeing from Wolf, but it was one comment only, so I tend to let a singular fit of emotionalism slide. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not saying anyone is shilling for the NRA but there is not a lot of difference for me between BullRangifer's comment and an experienced editor telling a SPA editing a politician's bio, "I don't think your boss would thank you for drawing community attention to and possible media interest in your whitewashing of his biography." --NeilN 19:06, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

← It seems that consensus is leaning toward either a logged warning or an informal word-to-the-wise to Thewolfchild, so I'm not going to continue pushing for a more substantial sanction. I do remain concerned by a few things:

1. This editor was part of what external reliable sources identified (correctly, in my view) as a coordinated, partisan effort to "hide the true number of mass shootings associated with the AR-15 rifle";
2. Constructive editors familiar with the situation (Mandruss and dlthewave) are telling us that Thewolfchild's behavior is disruptive; and
3. I see zero insight on Thewolfchild's part (see this discussion, or his statement here at AE, where he closes by vicariously praising his own manners and reasoning skills).

But I'm fine with whatever closure the rest of the group agrees on. MastCell  23:20, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

• Sorry to be slow, but I do want to comment too. I find it difficult, because it concerns an aspect of American culture that's baffling to me as a non-American. But I'm still reading, so please don't close just yet. Bishonen | talk 09:30, 13 March 2018 (UTC).
• Continued. Yes, the U.S. gun culture is baffling to me, and likely to most Europeans, and seemingly to increasing numbers of Americans as well. I found this opinion piece, America Is the Gun, with its historical perspective ("We have venerated the gun and valorized its usage") somewhat enlightening. Anyway, despite the fact that we have a 2014 RFAR case about gun control, and consequently have discretionary sanctions, it's apparently very difficult to sanction editors who work to keep our gun articles purely technical, and to keep societal issues out of them (seemingly on the argument that only the technical is neutral). This effort is harming Misplaced Pages's reputation IMO, compare BullRangifer's links. I'm not saying that Thewolfchild is a kingpin in this effort, but I do regard them as part of it, and their claim of strict neutrality is unconvincing. I agree with MastCell about noting zero insight on Thewolfchild's part, and for that reason I'm in favour of either a topic ban (first choice) or a strongly-worded, and definitely logged, warning. Specifically, I'm unimpressed by their post on this board. Superficially Thewolfchild comes here with conciliation, offering concern lest they have "upset" K.e.coffman; but a reading of the diffs they offer as proof that they love to be nice, if only K.e.coffman wasn't so unreasonable, says something else.. And to further prove how neutral they are, they showcase a polite response from another editor ("Thank you for the polite and well-reasoned responses.") about a comparatively minor matter, namely that the article is US-centric — not exactly one of the hot-button issues. No, I don't see Thewolfchild showing awareness or doing any introspecting, I see them digging in, and arranging their countenance pleasantly when so many admins are watching. As for being nice enough not to raise any counter-complaints against K.e.coffman, Thewolfchild, if you have any complaints against K.e.coffman, why not raise them? Saying that you won't, "in hopes of moving forward", thereby implying that you could, is a rhetorical device that doesn't convince me. This conflict — the whole gun control conflict, I mean — is too important to be hurried off the AE board merely in the interest of 'moving on' and 'not dragging things out'. Please raise any complaints you may have against K.e.coffman.

• P.S. Going to post, I noticed K.e.coffman has now posted an update, right at the end of the "Discussion concerning Thewolfchild", just above the Results section. Possibly not the best place for it, but nm, it's interesting. I agree with K.e.coffman that the new diffs, representing recent posts by Thewolfchild, do show that they continue to lack self-awareness as to why their editing on gun-related pages is problematic. Example: here's one long comment they posted on Talk:AR-15 style rifle only about an hour after posting their self-praising defence on this board. I quote: "But basically, they're not intended for killing people. They're based on a Mil/LE design that is, but the civilian variant is not. That said, of course it's lethal. So are cars. And Bic lighters (literally and figuratively). And a staggeringly long list of other items that can be used to kill a person. So what?" Reading that gun nut trope about the cars and the Bic lighters, posted just an hour after Thewolfchild posted here that "My position's been neither 'pro- or anti-gun', but instead to push for articles to remain neutral, balanced, encyclopaedic", it's my opinion that there's just no self-awareness or introspection at all in the Thewolfchild's defence here. Would the uninvolved admins please take a look at K.e.coffman's new diffs? I now feel more strongly that a topic ban is the way to go. Bishonen | talk 18:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC).

It strikes me that it might have been better to ping the relevant admins. @Dennis Brown, MastCell, Sandstein, GoldenRing, and NeilN: would you care to take a look at K.e.coffman's new diffs here, that I discuss above? Bishonen | talk 22:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC).

I think I should recuse myself from acting or proposing action with respect to K.e.coffman's diffs, because they appear to relate, in part, to an RfC in which I expressed an opinion. Sandstein 23:33, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

• I've noted he has a bit too much zeal at time, and I can see why a warning might be a good idea, but my original observations are still pretty much the same as I feel now. These are very controversial topics, there is going to be friction. I would even argue a little friction can be helpful. Wolf does need to post less often and be more concise when he posts, but if it is a matter of "good faith", I'm not convinced his faith is an issue, even if his style is less than desirable. I get it that this is AE, and this is a politically charged topic, but if this was a normal topic at ANI, it would be closed quickly without action. The threshold is a bit different here, but I don't support strong sanctions. I would say that if a month or two down the line, he hasn't learned to trim down the comments, then we have a pattern of mild distruption due to being too verbose. That is a pretty weak place to stand, but that is what it would be, and maybe it would be actionable. What I would like to see is for Wolf to agree to pull back some. Again, he is active on the page, but I wouldn't call that WP:BLUDGEONing (and I wrote that essay, I know bludgeoning when I see it). He can be overly verbose, but that isn't the same thing. Finally, anyone who disagrees with anyone on these highly charged topics is going to piss off the other side, so complaints have to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see a lot of name calling or personal attacks, and in fact, most of the time his comments are proportionate and reasoned. I just don't feel right swinging the ban hammer in a case like this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
• Holding until a possible further reply from Thewolfchild. I may be jaded from adminning in the American Politics area but I've seen similar voluminous postings from some of the editors in that area (with the personalization toned down since many articles now have a civility restriction in effect) and life goes on there. Have there been other issues with this editor and the gun area prior to Stoneman Douglas? --NeilN 00:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
• BullRangifer, YOU may feel that those edits should be made, but that isn't an issue for WP:AE, that is a content issue. Not everyone will agree with you on that, and we can't really decide that as an administrative function. We can only deal with behavior, and the behavior here (and by others, even yourself in at least one edit) is less than stellar but not sanctionable. That's ok, as I said, a little friction is sometimes beneficial to hash out controversial topics. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
• Per Dennis. Thewolfchild clearly opposes inclusion of information on the use of AR-15-style weapons in mass shootings on that page; that is not an unreasonable position for an editor to take (and certainly not a sanctionable one); there is, after all, an RfC currently open on this very question. If and when the RfC closes with a definite consensus to include such material and Thewolfchild continues to argue against its inclusion, then we are looking at editing against established consensus and that can become disruptive; right now we are being asked to sanction an editor for "sowing discord and confusion" - and it feels like this is just another way of saying "someone who disagrees with me on a subject I feel very strongly about." We shouldn't be sanctioning one side of a run-of-the-mill content dispute based on a very thin accusation of personalising the dispute and (as far as I can tell) completely unproved accusations of off-site collusion. Unless something much more persuasive is brought forward, I intend to close this today with some advice to Thewolfchild. GoldenRing (talk) 09:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
  • @GoldenRing: Perhaps my view is informed by my experience as an editor on contentious topics, but I think you're missing the mark. This isn't a content dispute. It's a behavioral issue of stonewalling, and refusing to acknowledge or reflect the content of reliable sources. It's beyond dispute that dozens, if not hundreds, of reliable sources clearly link AR-15-style rifles to mass shootings in the US. That's not a partisan or "POV" position; it's a statement of objective reality. Therefore, by definition and according to our fundamental content policies, this linkage is a relevant aspect of such weapons which needs to be reflected in our article.

    Now, how to phrase the material, and how much prominence to give it—those are content disputes to be resolved by involved editors on the talkpages or through RfCs. But what I see in these discussions is different: it's a blanket refusal (since softened, but only under threat of a topic ban) to even mention the linkage, reliable sources be damned. That is textbook tendentious editing—it's an effort to categorically exclude appropriately sourced material, plausibly motivated by a personal political agenda. There is no justification for that position, which goes directly against fundamental content policies and best practices.

    You point out the ongoing RfC. First of all, anyone can open an RfC, so the presence of absence of one has little bearing on the validity of the question being asked. In fact, the RfC is a perfect demonstration of the problem: apparently, the stonewalling on this subject is so bad that an actual RfC is required in order to uphold basic content policies. Think about it: why do we need an RfC to decide whether we should or shouldn't convey the content of dozens of reliable sources? That's not a content dispute. It's a sign of an editing environment that has drifted badly off course and is in need of correction.

    Again, I think I'm in the minority here and I don't think I'm convincing anyone, so I'm not going to oppose the closure, but I do think it's worth going on record here. MastCell  16:37, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• BullRangifer, your reply to GoldenRing demonstrates the problem. You both have POVs. Everyone has a POV and is entitled to it. That is not the same as editing warring to only present one side in an article. So yes, his position is one that many would have, even if they would constitute a minority. You are essentially saying someone should be sanctioned for having a minority view, and that is not acceptable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:46, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
• @GoldenRing: I realize there's no consensus for a topic ban, but I could wish you don't take it on yourself to decide what input from other uninvolved admins is and is not persuasive here, and don't close according to your own opinion, i.e. with "some advice to Thewolfchild" (as opposed to a logged warning), per your comment above. You have expressed a strong opinion here, as have I (and I shouldn't be the one to close either). I haven't counted, but I have the impression you have been closing quite a lot of AE filings, including controversial ones, since you became an admin less than a year ago. Please let someone more experienced do this one, considering how divisive it is. It would be ideal if someone who has not yet commented wandered by, but barring that happy occurrence, I suggest NeilN as closer. Bishonen | talk 01:03, 15 March 2018 (UTC).

• @Bishonen: Given the strong comments made since, I had already decided not do follow my intention above. GoldenRing (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

• I want to be brief here, since this thread is already long enough. I've had some dealings on and off-wiki with TWC and I have no doubt we would get along fine; I think his heart is in the right place. But, and I am sorry to say this, it is probably best if they stay away from this page and maybe the topic. I don't want to get in too much detail cause I feel I'm already mean enough, but this isn't just two POVs clashing (pace Dennis and others); TWC is just better off not editing this article/topic because--well, really because what MastCell said, for instance. And that would be better for the article too. Drmies (talk) 01:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
• Two things:

• I'm not seeing a consensus for a topic ban here but neither am I seeing consensus for taking no AE action. A logged warning seems to be the best compromise.
• K.e.coffman, I've reviewed your new evidence. I acknowledge Thewolfchild has had interaction issues in the past as well as what has been presented recently but I tend to give diffs that are 4-5 years old less weight if there's a significant gap between incidents. Also, your diffs regarding the poll don't seem to be consistent with your claims. Please recheck your dates and if you wish present diffs of Thewolfchild's poll edits, preferably those made after this request was opened. --NeilN 02:36, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

• @BullRangifer: I'm not sure how relevant your complaint, currently right at the end of your section, about this removal is to an AE report about Thewolfchild. But I understand your point about the general problem, and agree that that edit was tendentious and poorly explained (here on the talkpage). I've alerted the user to discretionary sanctions for gun control-related articles and warned them against further tendentious editing. Bishonen | talk 18:13, 15 March 2018 (UTC).
• @Dlthewave: Yes, I will work on the warning wording and present it here tomorrow. --NeilN 03:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
• I didn't "recuse" myself, this isn't a consensus board. Whomever acts, does so unilaterally and is free to ignore everyone else. Policy dictates this. I've given my opinions and frankly, I'm swamped at work and just didn't have anything new or interesting to say that I haven't already said. My opinion hasn't changed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:07, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Proposed warning

I've re-reviewed all the evidence and administrator comments. Two major points:

• I see a lot of diffs pointing to talk page posts editors and admins see as problematic. What I don't see are diffs pointing to articlespace edits. There's no evidence that an articlespace ban is needed.
• There is no consensus among admins as to what action to take and some posts seemed to stray into voicing an opinion on content matters. As Dennis Brown says, this technically isn't a consensus board but I do believe an admin needs to take a lack of consensus into account when formulating a close.

We do not stop editors from voicing unpopular or minority opinions as long as the opinions are expressed with a minimum of politeness and stop short of bludgeoning. These opinions are part of the consensus-building process and should be be given the appropriate weight by other editors and closers of any discussions. This current dispute was triggered by Stoneman Douglas bringing increased scrutiny to an area with potential existing content issues. Thewolfchild cannot be held responsible for these issues as they have not been active in this area previously. We also don't hop, skip, and jump every time our content makes the news - we figure out how to address potential issues by having appropriate discussions. To facilitate smooth operation of these particular discussions Thewolfchild is warned:

• not to personalize disputes or to use inflammatory language ("comment on the content, not the contributor");
• not to impede the formation of consensus by being too bold with talk page actions (specifically, they should not take it upon themselves to maintain or "clerk" any discussions);
• not to impede the formation of consensus by repeatedly making the same points;
• to acknowledge consensus can change and having external events bring increased scrutiny and change to potential walled gardens of articles can be beneficial and should not be ridiculed.

--NeilN 00:21, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

This looks good to me as regards Thewolfchild. I do wonder if a gentle reminder to all editors to advance by building consensus would also be in order, given some of the comments made here. GoldenRing (talk) 10:52, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Good God, what a mess. I think the warning as written is fine (and just as a reminder, everyone editing in this area would do well to follow that advice, not just Thewolfchild.) Whether informally or otherwise, I think one of the other issues here has been almost a notion of ownership by Wikiproject Firearms over articles. It's not the first time that happened, but I think we should issue a reminder that editors are not required to follow any terms or guidelines set by Wikiprojects, nor do Wikiprojects have any special authority over articles within their covered area. Guidelines by Wikiprojects are suggestions, not mandates, and I think a reminder of that might be in order here. Seraphimblade 15:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Fully agree with your Wikiprojects and ownership point. --NeilN 16:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild: In order:

1. This is the wording I'm proposing. Feedback from other admins and editors is welcomed but I don't think I'll be dramatically strengthening or weakening the wording.
2. Do not summarize discussions like what you did with your vote tally. If discussion needs to be cleaned up or reformatted somehow, leave it to someone else.
3. See explanation of point #2 right above.
4. ,
   1. "I just don't like to see people who's political ideologies and anti-gun passions, that have been inflamed by the recent shooting, taking that rage and disrupting the project with it. They need to check that shit at the door."
   2. "Too many people have a personal agenda here, someone needs to look out for the project." - editors self-appointing themselves champions of the project rarely ends well.
5. Not much. The positions of semi-involved admins were all over the place.

• Add: Your analysis of the opinions of uninvolved admins is also incorrect. Obvious counter-example: me. I have never called for a close with no action. And calling for sanctions to be levied does not automatically make an admin biased or have questionable neutrality any more than calling for no action to be taken would. This is more of the same thinking that landed you here in the first place. --NeilN 18:29, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

1. Content disputes involving the violation of editing restrictions are dealt with here but this case involves how content disputes are being resolved and these situations fall firmly under arbitration enforcement requests. I assume that other admins are following the case and aside from GoldenRing's concern with one of BullRangifer's comment, I see little inclination to warn/sanction other editors. Any uninvolved admin is free to take action, either within this case or outside of it. GoldenRing's suggestion above might be worthwhile taking up by crafting some appropriate wording or by reiterating a sentence from WP:CONSENSUS: "Editors should listen, respond, and cooperate to build a better article. Editors who refuse to allow any consensus except the one they insist on, and who filibuster indefinitely to attain that goal, risk damaging the consensus process." --NeilN 15:57, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by B01010100

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

B01010100 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TonyBallioni (talk) 19:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

B01010100 blocked indefinitely, first year under discretionary sanctions

Administrator imposing the sanction

NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by B01010100

There is no valid basis for the block. The admin in question appeals to discretionary sanctions regarding Eastern Europe, yet I have not even edited any articles under those restrictions for years. This is nothing but an obvious attempt to subvert the dispute resolution process, given that all I did was open, first, an ANI case and then an ArbCom case presenting evidence debunking the conspiracy theory in question.

Statement by NeilN

B01010100 knows very well that they're editing on a Ukrainian-related topic as they explicitly acknowledged the connection when they were last active three years ago. Almost the entirety of their contribs has been in this area. An editor returning after three years and posting about conspiracies and time-travel on ANI and making frivolous Arbcom case requests and calling editors a "rabid gang of Russophobic racists" without using article talk pages once since their return is not someone who should be editing in this area. I blocked instead of topic banned because as stated before, almost all their entire edits are in this area and there's little to be gained if the same attitude is brought to other topics, some of which (judging from B01010100's wikilawyering), may fall just outside the Eastern Europe topic area. --NeilN 21:55, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Acroterion

This editor's request for arbitration has already been dismissed by Arbcom and they're indef blocked. As I stated there this appears to be the resurrection of a gaslighting campaign from 2014 connected with the shootdown of MH 17, to promote Russian assertions that a Ukrainian plane shot down the 777. We've had two editors and an IP appear at Talk:Sukhoi Su-25 with arguments that this is only about technical information, and it's shown up at ANI twice in the past month with no traction. I assume we've got some off-site coordination going on here. I've placed the EE sanctions notice on the talkpage to make the point more clear, right above the links to the articles covering the documented manipulation of the Russian WP. I guess we can expect this to continue for a while. I note that the editor in question is using their talkpage as an alternate forum for their arguments. Acroterion (talk) 21:08, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by B01010100

Result of the appeal by B01010100

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'm not entirely comfortable blocking someone using discretionary sanctions for making an ArbCom case request, even if it was a ridiculous one. The committee or an admin clerk could do that if they found it disruptive. At the same time, I'm not comfortable unblocking because I think that their current edits show they're likely going to be disruptive if unblocked (the animosity towards Acroterion in particular is concerning). I would suggest vacating the AE action while leaving it as a regular indefinite admin block that he is free to appeal through the normal unblock process. Whether or not editing about EE by filing an ArbCom request is technically within the topic area, it just looks bad to block for that using AE actions if the committee itself likely wouldn't have done anything other than decline. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press