Misplaced Pages

In what sense is it not a compromise? There were two wikilinks under dispute, this involves removing one. Neither is it an attempt to assert ownership over the article. It is simply an attempt to make clear the consensus of three editors against one in support of this compromise. Your claim that it's vandalism is laughable. --David.Mestel 16:02, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If A and B have a dispute with C, A and B have to split the difference with C, not with each other, to have a compromise; this proposal doesn't split any difference with me. My proposal to do the same thing, with the articles reversed was attacked as no compromise; if those attacks hold water, then this doesn't either. The mediator (you do know that this is in mediation, don't you?) has said that any further unilateral changes in the article without the agreement of the others here is a bad-faith transgression of mediation; I've honored that, but now you've come in for the other side and declared that you're going to impose a solution unilaterally. Sounds like vandalism to me -- and I'm not joking. Of course this is a strong-arm attempt to assert ownership over this article on behalf of your client; what else could it be when you try to bully the other side?

Interesting that you've started a debate in the vote section. Is that the way advocates are supposed to behave?

I apologize for my unintentional oversight of not having signed my earlier entry. I trust no one was misled by the error. Larry Sarner 10:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

2. As the author of a book on the concept of emotional attachment, as well as a number of articles examining treatments that purport to be related to Bowlby's theory, I am concerned about a compromise here-- more especially this one. We seem to be taking the Humpty Dumpty approach to argument, in which "glory" means "a nice knock-down argument" and the meaning is established by commercial transactions. No vote can determine whether two concepts are related; we need a rationale or warrant to do that, and no one has presented one. Therefore I reject the compromise. I would also like to say that I object to trying to solve a dispute by wrangling and strategy rather than by substantive discussion. This approach is all very well in politics, but in science the idea is to put forward matters of observable fact and use all the data available to craft the best possible conclusion.This is especially necessary when we are dealing with conclusions that can seriously affect children and families. In the present case, I don't see that anyone has tried to show parallels between specifics of Bowlby's theory and specifics of DDP, Theraplay, or anything else. Surely it's up to the writers who wish to make those parallels to provide a rationale for doing so, and, if they cannot provide one, to withdraw the link. I'd like to see someone present their reasoning about the disputed links in the format of claim (the proposed inclusion),ground (aspects of Bowlby's theory and of the linked material), and warrant (the reasoning that leads from the ground to the claim). The present "compromise" approach omits ground and warrant and amounts to Mr. Punch whacking someone with the stick of the repeated claim (sorry, I must be influenced by all the puppet references).I don't know whether the mediator can reject or earmark nonsubstantive statements, but that might be a way to force contributors to to limit themselves to useful material. Jean Mercer 15:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

All the details are described in 'Creating Capacity For Attachment. Furthermore, in that work, there is provided a rich and broad evidence base for Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy and its theoretical basis. The material clearsly shows the parallels between specifics of Bowlby's theory and the specifics of Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. Not being a clinician or licensed mental health professional, you might not be aware of that. I suggest you read that reference and all the of the supporting citations before making comments. DPeterson 00:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

ACT seems to fail to follow a scientific approach and we should avoid having "commercial" or fringe groups control Wiki pages, don't you agree? DPeterson 00:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree that persons with commercial interests should not be involved. Jean Mercer

Glad you agree. This would exclude all the leaders of ACT, who have published a book together and have a commercial interest in seeing their book sell. DPeterson 14:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, there is Mr Becker-Weidman (and people who share his IP address), who is up to his eyeballs in real commercial interest in all this. Larry Sarner 22:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

3. D Peterson, I vote against this proposal. As a clinical psychologist, I can find no substantial connection between Bowlby and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy that warrants a direct link between the two articles. Randy Pennington, PsyD Ranpenn 13:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC) 'Another DOES NOT COUNT VOTE' This person has no history of edits or participation, except this one...' 'DPeterson 21:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)'

Since Lary Sarner and Jean Mercer have a shared financial interest (they wrote at least one book together and are both leaders of ACT), should their "votes" count as one or as two? JonesRD 20:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

If this "vote" wasn't a moot point, it might be worth discussing (somewhere else), along with the same question posed to all those mostly anonymous editors on the other side who haven't disclosed their financial interests. Larry Sarner 22:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Avoiding the relevant issue is significant. It would be good to address this. By not, readers can only reach the conclusion that your shared financial interest in the book and as leaders of ACT is true and valid. DPeterson 21:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutral:

Do not use sock puppets

Clearly, User:JonesRD and User:Wallyj are sock puppets, since their only edits have been in relation to this dispute. Never use sock puppets to inflate your ranks, as this will lessen the credibility of the side you ostensibly support. Puppet masters are generally not treated lightly on Misplaced Pages, so please be careful. If anyone is using sock puppets, then cease and desist. Brisvegas 08:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Does this mean that mercer is a sock puppet since the addition attributed to that name was not properly signed in? Perhaps that comment should be deleted or properly attributed. MarkWood 21:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not a sock puppet and am now wondering about your neutrality in this matter. I am a long time user of Misplaced Pages. I use it to get information and frequently browse pages. The fact that I have not been called on to comment before this silly controversary initiated by sarner should not negate the legitimacy of my thoughts. I speak for myself and no one else. JonesRD 16:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm outraged to be labeled a SOCK PUPPET! I am a graduate student in clinical psychology. I frequently use Misplaced Pages, especially the pages about attachement, to find the most current information and discussion topics. Just because this is the first time I decided to get involved should not discount my opinions or imply that I am some kind of puppet.Wallyj 22:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out.

The other side has been rife with sock puppets from the beginning. There is history evidence on this and other pages that DPeterson, formerly PPeterson, has the same IP address as AWeidman. AWeidman has used the same dial-up IP Class B/C as was used to sign comments supporting AWeidman comments. I predict that if an administrator went in and looked at the IP addresses used for the creation/sign-ins of nearly every user supporting the other side, there would be a striking correspondence.

I contend this has always been a debate between me and AWeidman, and the "votes" here have been a sham. They have always been 1-1. Of course, Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, but AWeidman has been trying to stuff the ballot box from almost the beginning as if it was. He doesn't debate the issues, just has stalking horses (if not sock puppets) sign on and demand that I go along with his position because I'm supposedly the odd one out.

These sham users also permit him to talk about him in the third person so that he can make points that would be too gauche for him to say about himself.

And finally, there is the cover the sham users provide against the three-revert rule, giving AWeidman more reverts than I so that in an edit war he can keep his version up most of the time against any attempts on my part to improve it.

Larry Sarner 10:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Discounting others just because they disagree with you seems to be one of your standard tactics. I disagree with sarner and so am included in the "debate," althought he clearly is not interested in a free exchange of ideas and the development of consensus or collaboration.

DPeterson 12:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

And just as clearly, AWeidman (and aliases/stalking horses) doesn't give any ideas to freely exchange. Just red herrings. Larry Sarner 15:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, sarner resorts to attacks, indirection, and avoids the issue. You represent a fringe minority view as a leader of ACT and your ideas are just not accepted by the mainstream and majority of contributors. Your use of red herrings is getting tiresome. DPeterson 15:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it is time to end this fruitless argument and move on. Sarner clearly only has one interest and that is the removal of all references to Dyadic Developmental Psychotherpay, which is his agenda as a leader of ACT, as others have pointed out. He is not contributing to the benefit of Misplaced Pages or this page in any way. His attacks and unwillingness to compromise or collaborate to build consensus are not helpful or in the spirit of Misplaced Pages.

JonesRD 16:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Messrs. JonesRD and Wallyj. You see, the reason I came to this conclusion is by looking at your contributions to Misplaced Pages: Special:Contributions/wallyj and Special:Contributions/JonesRD. Both of your first ever contributions to Misplaced Pages have involved this dispute, and most of the subsequent edits have done so as well. If I am wrong then I apologise, but you must admit that this does seem extremely suspicious. Please understand my situation. I am trying to deal with a very difficult dispute and my job is not made any easier by a sudden influx of new users who wish to add their two cents to this topic, although any positive contributions are welcome. I am NOT seeking to point fingers at anyone; all I wish to achieve is to warn users just in case they are not playing by the rules. As an aside, I will be away for the next week and won't be on Misplaced Pages for that time. For now, the best solution is to leave the article as it exists. Brisvegas 01:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. As mediator, there is really little I can do to resolve your dispute. I have made suggesitons that have been ignored, with each side keen to maintain their own positions. This dispute will not be resolved through mediation if there is no spirit of compromise. Good luck. I will check back later to see if I can offer any more assistance.

I am a long-time user of Misplaced Pages, as a browser and reader. It is only recently that I felt compelled to register and contribute to this discussion. I began to feel increasingly strongly that the page was being held hostage by one zealot and this motivated my talk. I now see how easy it is to build a page, when there is the spirit of collaboration and cooperation, and am an active contributor. So, yes, you are wrong and am am offended by being called a "sock puppet." You aare wrong, and I accept your apology.

JonesRD 15:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Precisely, "This dispute will not be resolved through mediation if there is no spirit of compromise," and sarner has shown that he does not wish to compromise or collaborate in any way. There is a proposal for compromise and the vast majority of contributors support it, so I would welcome seeing that put into place so that this fruitless argument and stonewalling by one zealot can be ended and this all put to rest.

I do think that the comments of the others are cogent and valid. I can understand why this elongated and protracted disucssion can brought in browers (wallyj and Jonesrd) and has motivated them to contribute. It is time to move on and not continue to allow one zealot with an agenda of a fringe group (ACT) to runin a good page or dilute good information and valid knowledge.

DPeterson 02:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

DPeterson 02:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I am a clinical psychologist who has been watching this process from the sidelines for quite some time. I must say that I agree with Mr. Sarner and Dr. Jean Mercer with the views they have expressed. Professional courtesy is extended when professionals provide COMPLETE and ACCURATE citations. I believe Mr. Sarner's request for complete and accurate citations was and is a reasonable request that should be honored by those making "evidence based" or "empirical support" claims. I would like to offer a suggestion that might prove stimulating and informative. I would welcome a response from the developer of Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy, Daniel Hughes, Ph.D., to respond to the following questions about his therapeutic approach that I've taken from the following book:

Ruscio, J. (2006). Critical thinking in psychology: Separating sense from nonsense. Thomson Wadsworth; Canada. pp. 26-27.

1. Is Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy theory testable?

2. Has Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy been tested using valid and reliable procedures and with positive results?

3. Has the Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy theory/approach been subjected to peer review? If so provide citations that are complete and accurate.

4. What is the known or potential error rate of the scientific theory (DDP) or technique?

5. What standards, controlling the techniques's operation, maximize it's validity?

6. Has the theory been generally accepted as valid in the relevant scientific community? (Relevant scientific community would consist of those academicians in the college or university setting.)

Ranpenn

I wonder about the validity of this "Contributor" who is not signed in and has no history. This sounds like questions previously raised by another and answered by reference to the book 'Creating Capacity for Attachment', its reference list of peer-reviwed publications, and other citations. DPeterson 03:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Questioning the validity of a contributor? Is there a single "contributor" here who did not start on this page, or a related one?

Of course, the book cited is not a reliable one. You could, of course, quote from the book and answer the fellow's questions, but that of course might require an index. Does the book have an index?

Larry Sarner 08:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Action

Sarner, if you feel that JonesRD and Wallyj are probable sockpuppets of Dr. Becker-Weidman, your are welcome to request a checkuser on them. Otherwise, please withdraw your allegations. Brisvegas, please do not make these allegations, as they compromise your neutrality as a mediator. If you do so again, my client and I will be forced to carefully consider our position as to whether we are prepared to deal with you as a mediator.

In response to your earlier comment, we are not trying to seize control of the article, but simply to point out that you cannot indefinitely hold the article to ransom by refusing to compromise except for your absurd suggestion (since you have presented no reasons why theraplay is more relevant to the article than DDP). We are splitting the difference with you - we think that both should be linked, you think that neither should be. We propose that one is.

In further response to Brisvegas, I am unclear about what you mean with regard to a lack of a spirit of compromise, since I have already proposed a compromise on behalf of my client. However, as a gesture of good faith towards this mediation (the usefulness of which I am begginning to doubt), I will refrain from implementing this until you return from Wikibreak. --David.Mestel 13:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I support this action. It is reasonable and in the spirit of compromise and collaboration. Thank you. JonesRD 15:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments regarding peer-review support for Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy and Theraplay

See full citations at the end of this section Dr. Art 20:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There have been several challengeable assertions made about Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy and Theraplay. Support for inclusion of DDP in Bowlby's article has been justified by some discussants on the other side by claiming, without sources, that DDP and Theraplay are "evidence-based". I'd like to see the sources for this claim. One certainly can't find reference to any in the PsychInfo index, which is where one would expect it to be if it appears in peer-reviewed literature (as also claimed).

If sources for these claims can't be cited, I suggest these references need to be removed. I suggest a week for the sources to be cited, then the references will be removed if none are forthcoming in that time. They can always be put back in whenever someone comes up with the sources, and the sources check out.

Larry Sarner 17:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If you read the book you will see that it provides an abundant evidence base for the therapy. RalphLender 22:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

there is also the article cited in 'Child and Adolescent Social Work', which is a professional peer reviewed journal...also see my comments below RalphLender 18:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Please give a full citation so it can be located: author(s), title, date, volume, and page numbers.

The book mentioned below has been brought up before and is not part of the evidence corpus. It was not peer reviewed in the canonical sense and so does not qualify as an acceptable source for evidence.

Larry Sarner 21:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The book provides ample evidence for the effectivenss of the therapy and many articles in peer reviewed professional publications as evidence for the efficacy of this reputable approach. It provides the full citation you want. But, in any event, this is a side issue and not to the point. I support leaving both references in and so do the vast majority of contributors. 'RalphLender 22:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)'

You are correct. DPeterson 23:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The approach is only reputable if there is evidence in the scientific (peer-reviewed) corpus for its safety and efficacy. The book, since it wasn't peer-reviewed, doesn't count. Articles in peer-reviewed do count. Give us a citation for some, such as the one you mentioned.

If the book "provides the full citation you want" as you say, then you can simply go to the book and provide it for us here. Better yet, if you have the article yourself, you can give us the citation directly.

I hardly think that evidence is a "side issue". Besides, you (and the others) keep asserting that acceptable peer-reviewed evidence exists and that it supports your position. What's wrong with at least providing the citation for it, so I can check it out. Heaven knows, it might convince me!

Larry Sarner 16:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

'Creating Capacity For Attachment' is a sufficient reference. It has everything sarner needs. RalphLender 17:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sure that nothing will be enough for Mr. Sarner as other's have suggested, but at least I've listed something above that answers his question in full. 'RalphLender 17:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)'

No, you haven't. I asked for the author(s), title, date, volume, and page numbers of the article you cited in Child and Adolescent Social Work; you didn't give it. I asked for a citation to any other report of research in peer-reviewed journals; you haven't given any. You claim you know of some. All I'm asking is that you tell me what they are, so I can check them out myself. Larry Sarner 18:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

RalphLender seems correct in his assessment. Nothing is enough! If the book provides all the references and data requested, then go there and get your information and data and evidence base. I think that's quite reasonable. JonesRD 19:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. I asked for peer-reviewed support for DDP (and Theraplay). I've already told everyone what is "enough": give me a citation for a peer-reviewed report of evidence and I will go and look it up. It's a little enough thing to ask. Someone who isn't making things up should be able to provide it. It's the only reasonable thing to do. If you don't do it, it's probably because you can't. As the title of this discussion section suggests, if there is not zero peer-reviewed support for these two interventions, then it needs to be named. Larry Sarner 14:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with RalphLender and JonesRD. Your points are cogent, clear and on point. The previous comment would seem to add support to JonesRD's point that nothing will be enough. I think the material pressented is clear. Somehow I was able to find the book, 'Creating Capacity For Attachment,' the article in peer-reviewed journalChild & Adolescent Social Work, as have others, and the excellent article in the peer reviewed publication 'New Directions.'MarkWood 21:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Since you found these items, and chose to chime in on this subject, why don't you give the citations? You also have claimed in the past to be a graduate student in the field, so you should be able to cite something correctly and completely. So what is the citation for the CASWJ article? What is the citation for the NDCAR article(s)? Larry Sarner 22:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from provocation and try to keep a NPVO. The citations, while irrelevant to the point that consensus has been reached, have already been provided and others seem to have had no problem. DPeterson 23:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

1. NPOV (not NPVO) is required of articles, not talk pages. (Otherwise, how could anyone discuss them.)

2. Asking for information is a "provocation"? Oh, c'mon.

3. Asking for a citation is completely relevant to the point of this discussion. The notion that "consensus" has been reached is irrelevant and inaccurate. How can anyone participate in a consensus if no one will let the others in on the secret information.

4. At least one other does have a problem with the lack of citations.

5. Lack of a citation to a reliable source is sufficient for removal of a statement from an article ( verifiability).

6. I appreciate your restraint from personal attack, as requested. Hope it continues.

7. Changing the title of this discussion section (which I titled in the first place) is vandalism. Please stop.

Larry Sarner 00:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is important to build consensus and collaboration...isn't that what you want? So many seem to think that you don't...state that you are willing to compromise and accept other POV in addition to your own to show that you are not only after one POV as an advocate for ACT. There are no others, except an unsigned note. Citation already provided. Others seem to feel that nothing will every satisfy and so it is silly to continue to dialogue as there is no interest in a true dialogue and collaboration. Prove otherwise. DPeterson 00:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Please correct your vandalism of the title of this section. NPOV is the end-product in the article, not the discussion.

Still no citation provided for the NDCAR and CASWJ articles. No other citations, either, to research on DDP published in peer-reviewed journals. The burden of proof under Wiki verifiability policy is not being met.

I'm the one not getting any dialogue here. The article presently claims that DDP (and Theraplay) is an evidence-based treatment. I've asked the people who put in that statement to cite a reliable source for that claim. I was told early on that an article in CASWJ was reliable. I asked for the full citation (date, volume, pages, author, title) for that article. My request for that citation has been repeatedly refused. Oh, well, there are still four days to come up with the citation. When someone does, then maybe there can be something to "dialogue" about.

Larry Sarner 06:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I see that you didn't correct the vandalism, so I have. Larry Sarner 19:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Child and Adolescent Social Work The full citation is: Becker-Weidman, A., (2006). Treatment for children with trauma-attachment disorders: Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. Child and Adolescent Social Work Journal on line edition and 13-1, April 2006 in print.

The other reference is 'New Developments in Child Abuse Research' edited by Stanley M. Sturt, 2006, Nova Science. (Also a professional peer-reviewed publication as is CASWJ. 'Dr. Art 20:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)'

Evidence Base ... Leave Page As Is

If you read the citations in the article you can find an evidence base...for example, read the book, Creating Capacity for Attachment. As a reader of this and many other pages I cannot support your suggestion. It certainly is not consistent with the mediator's ideas or the compromise on the table. I strongly recommend that Larry Sarner accept the consensus and that exists and let's move on to other subjects and issues. RalphLender 18:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Consensus is not evidence. The "citations" in the article are just links to other Wiki articles, and there are no proper citations therein, either in the articles or in the discussion pages. Are you really suggesting that possible misinformation be retained so that you can move on to other subjects? Larry Sarner 21:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You are creating a 'red herring.' Consensus is clear on including both therapies...or at least as a consession to sarner, only Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. The fact that this treatment has strong evidence for its components and dimensions and that sarner continues to nit pick this and is now trying to make this the issue is merely a diversion and off point. The citation is a good one and includes all the data you need. It's time to move on and accept the clear consensus. 'RalphLender 22:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)'

Nonsense. Now I'm beginning to think you're making it all up. Anyone who says, "there's all the evidence you need in such-and-such article," then refuses to say how to identify the article has something to hide. Wouldn't it be much easier to produce the citation than stonewalling it? It's a very simple and reasonable request. Larry Sarner 16:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd not bother arguing these points, as you say, they are off point, RalphLender. I've read the book Creating Capcity for Attachment and it certainly does have lots of relevant citations of articles from professional peer-reviewed journals that provide lots of support for the effectiveness of this treatment. BTW, have you seen the most recent publication in 'New Developments in Child Abuse Research?' 'DPeterson 23:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)'

Yes, DPeterson, I've read 'New Developments' and found the entire issue of interest, especially the material on Dyadic Devvelopmental Psychotherapy, which, I assume, you were referring to. RalphLender 15:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, well, well. Another article without a citation! Care to tell the rest of us where we can find this "especially interesting" material? Larry Sarner 16:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

And why, "DPeterson" wouldn't you argue the point(s)...because evidence is "off point"? An interesting position for a Misplaced Pages contributor to take. Besides, there is no argument yet. I've only asked, thus far, for acceptable sources to be cited. So some book has "lots of relevant citations" of just what I've asked for? Great, it makes it easy for you to reproduce some of them here so we can see what it is you're talking about. Larry Sarner 16:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, DPeterson, you are right advising not bothering arguing these points as it never goes anywhere..only leads to more hostility and pointless argument and off-point material. 'New Developments in Child Abuse Research' is a peer reviewed publication published by Nova Science. But I will at least make one last effort here by giving the details sarner wants...but I'd guess you are right and nothing will make a difference to him...certainly hasn't so far. RalphLender 17:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, now you cite an unnamed article or articles in New Developments in Child Abuse Research. How 'bout a real citation so I can be let in on this fantastic source? Just tell me author, date, volume, and pages. Should be simple to do.

I don't see what is the problem? I picked up Creating Capacity for Attachment and see many references and citations that provide good evidence for this approach. It is a good resource for such references. All one needs to do is take a look. There is obviously a 'strong' base of support. I got a copy of the 'New Developments' at our U library...you are right, it is a good reference with excellent peer-reviewed studies. thanks for the tip SamDavidson 18:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't see the problem? Hmmm. You see "many references and citations" giving evidence for DDP? But you can't relay even one to this page here? Larry Sarner 19:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SamDavidson. The book, 'Creating Capacity For Attachment' has been given as a reference...but as others accurately predicted, nothing is 'enough' and I'd guess nothing will ever be enough. 'New Developments ...' sounds interesting. Thanks for the reference. I will look it up and get a copy from my local library...maybe buy it if it looks good. JonesRD 19:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I just tried to find this great, "peer-reviewed" book in Colorado. It is not in the collection of any university or college library in Colorado or Wyoming. Indeed, it is not even in any public library in Colorado or Wyoming. Wow!! Some source. Not only not "peer-reviewed", but not even important enough to be carried by a real library that might be used by professionals or researchers in a state where attachment therapy started!

As for New Developments in Child Abuse Research, what issue and article reports research on DDP? Or does someone have to read every issue cover-to-cover to find what you're talking about?

Larry Sarner 15:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

May I point out that peer review is not the same as the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval? The fact that an article is in a journal said to be peer-reviewed does not exempt the rest of us from examining the work and evaluating the appropriateness of the conclusions. Peer review can mean anything from an editor "peering" at the article to a well-organized effort to have suitable reviewers help the author to improve a paper. I can say from personal experience that an article I published in CASWJ could not have been seriously peer-reviewed, as the turnaround time was too short and I received no requests for revisions; whether this was also Becker-Weidman's experience, I can't tell. But, be that as it may, there are questions that any reader should ask about a paper before accepting its conclusions. An important question about Becker-Weidman's published work is whether it meets TREND criteria (Transparent Reporting in Evaluation of Nonrandomized Designs). TREND guidelines require authors to report on issues such as the circumstances that placed participants in the comparison group. In a study like Becker-Weidfman's, TREND would also require suitable statistical analysis, such as ANOVA rather than multiple Student's t tests, which multiply the probability of finding one or more significant differences. High-quality peer-reviewed journals are now asking reviewers to use the TREND guidelines in making recommendations about submitted papers. These are substantive issues that should be addressed by anyone who wants to claim the Becker-Weidman CASWJ article as presenting an evidentiary basis for DDP. Jean Mercer

I agree with RalphLender and JonesRD. Their points are cogent, clear and on point. The previous comments would seem to add support to JonesRD's point that nothing will be enough. I think the material pressented is clear. Somehow I was able to find the book, 'Creating Capacity For Attachment,' the article in peer-reviewed journalChild & Adolescent Social Work, as have others, and the excellent article in current issue of the peer reviewed publication 'New Directions...' In any event, there is clear 'consensus' to end this silly and pointless debate and that is what should happen. MarkWood 21:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Good points. I had no difficulty securing a copy of the the book, the article, or the 'New Directions'publication. The 'New Directions' peer reviewed publication has several excellent articles, including one on another outcome study of Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. DPeterson 22:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

But you can't tell anyone what the citation is? Let me remind you and the others, in Misplaced Pages the burden of proof is with the person making the claim (WP:V). "Editors should cite reliable sources so that their edits may be verified by readers and other editors." (WP:V) I have made a reasonable request to know the source of the claim. If no one is able to give it, the claims must go. This is firm Wiki policy. Please conform to policy. Also, stop with the personal attacks; they are also against Wiki policy. Larry Sarner 23:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Another excellent reference that you might want to take a look at that also relates to the various components of 'Dyadic Developmental Psychotherpay' is 'Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy with Trauma Survivors' by Susan Johnson, 2002, NY: Guilford Press. Guilford peer-reviews all its professional publications...I'd not known that. You might also want to take a look at the works of Peter Fonagy, which is another source of support and some excellent clinically related material. 68.66.160.228 22:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)DPeterson 22:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No, no. How can DDP be Johnson's "Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy"? You said you knew of peer-reviewed evidence for DDP in several peer-reviewed journals. That's what you need to cite now. Johnson's book may indeed be reliable (though it probably cites research reports in journals, which would be more appropriate to cite instead), but only about "Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy", not DDP. Plus, you didn't even give page references to where she mentions DDP in the book. And next, "the works of Peter Fonagy"?!? References, citations, titles, page numbers, please, to DDP. This amateurism is a waste of everyone's time. Larry Sarner 23:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

See, there he goes again with personal attachks and raising irrelvant issues. The references are irrelevant to the fact that consensus has been reached and he apparently will not accept that. See 'Creating Capacity For Attachment' for all the evidence necessary and as a source to provide all the answers to all these unncessary questions. Dr. Johnson's work is excellent support of Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy as they are both based on the same principles, methods, and techniques. As other's have amply pointed out, it appears that nothing will satisfy him. DPeterson 23:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"It appears that nothing will satisfy him" is a personal attack. Attack (or "attachks" ) my arguments, not me.

I've already pointed out what will "satisfy" me. I am still awaiting a verifiable citation to peer-reviewed reports of research supporting DDP as claimed exists in the article and by others here. Not "Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy", not Fonagy's works, not Newton's Theory of Gravity, but DDP. Claiming that my very reasonable request is "irrelvant" is not an answer, but an evasion. Evading the Wiki policy requirement for verifiable information is treading on thin ice. Larry Sarner 00:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Citation already provided. Continued insistance that it has not could lead one to believe that nothing will satisfy int his regard. All the previously cited works provide professional peer-reviewed evidence based support as Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy uses the same principles, methods, techniques, and approaches...Again, see the references cited, for example, 'Creating Capacity For Attachment' DPeterson 00:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

See comments in immediately preceding section. Still waiting for citations to reliable sources about research on DDP. (Oh, and by the way, Theraplay, too.) Creating Capacity For Attachment may have such references as a shortcut, but no one who has the book will cite what they are. Four days to go. Larry Sarner 06:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it "New Developments..." or "New Directions..."? In either case, year, volume, and page numbers would be appreciated. I do not find either title in my search. There is, of course, the tried-and-true publication "New Directions in Child Development Research", which has periodically done a lot of articles on attachment-related issues, but I assume you would have said that if you meant it.Really, refusing to provide information cannot be taken as evidence of good faith. Jean Mercer 14:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

'New Developments in Child Abuse Research' 2006DPeterson 15:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Still can't find the year, volume, and page numbers? Larry Sarner 18:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Child and Adolescent Social Work The full citation is: Becker-Weidman, A., (2006). Treatment for children with trauma-attachment disorders: Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. Child and Adolescent Social Work Journal on line edition and 13-1, April 2006 in print.

The other reference is 'New Developments in Child Abuse Research' edited by Stanley M. Sturt, 2006, Nova Science. (Also a professional peer-reviewed publication as is CASWJ. 'Dr. Art 20:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)'

I resign

Hi everyone. As of today, I will dissociate myself from this case. In part, this is due to personal factors which currently preclude me from investing the time and effort that a mediation case requires, and also due to the lack of progress made in this dispute, despite my attempts at compromise. I did invest a lot of time, effort and energy in this case, and it pains me that sticky points have not yet been sorted out, although I remain hopeful. I thank everyone involved for what has generally been a civil and open dicussion, and I sincerely hope that a compromise can be achieved. Good luck everyone and perhaps I will encounter you later on my wiki-travels. Cheers, Brisvegas 03:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

A summary?

Brisvegas has requested that someone else from WP:MEDCAB looks at this dispute, but I admit I'm a bit overwhelmed about what's going on... could someone sum up in maybe one or two sentences what specific bit of content in this article here is being disputed? Thanks. Cowman109 02:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Many contributors feel that the Theraplay and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy references remain in the also see section. One, or maybe two others (both members of the same group, ACT, do not want those references to remain. A compromise was proposed by a Misplaced Pages administrator --David.Mestel-- in which Theraplay would be deleted and Dyadic Developmental Psychotheray would remain. Seven contributors supported this. I appreciate your intervention. DPeterson 02:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The above is a rather inadequate description. The "See Also" section is just the current dispute that's raging. The "compromise" was not proposed by a Wiki administrator, but an advocate and it's only been accepted by the side for whom the advocate represents. As part of a general concern, which also encompasses the "See Also" dispute, I have asked for a citation to a reliable source for claims about Theraplay and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy; my request has not been honored, though the other side claims that it has.

Alright, then. I will state what I have observed so far, then from looking over the current information. One interesting note (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the only editor involved in this dispute who has edited an article outside of John Bowlby and related articles is David.Mestel. Now, I don't mean to be rude or to insult anyone in any way, but a la WP:AUTO, I am just asking you all to recognize that if you are involved with an the disputed references, it is very possible that you have a subconscious bias towards one way. With that in mind, I feel that the best thing to do to get this forward would be to make decisions based solely on policy and third opinions. Would anyone object to getting unrelated people to toss in their opinions about this dispute? Thanks. Cowman109 02:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I have contributed to articles outside of John Bowlby and Attachment Theory. It also appears that at least two others have as well. That being said, I think getting others to state their opinions would certainly be helpful and could not hurt. DPeterson 03:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

DPeterson's contribution record does not show any contributions outside related articles to attachment, and he came on board in the middle of this dispute, both just like all the others have, except for me (and only recently). The mediator had it sized up exactly right. Just wanted to set the record straight about that. Larry Sarner 08:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of disputes simmering on the back-burners. We haven't gotten much progress on the ones that are front and center at the moment, so the others haven't been able to come to the fore. I'm eager to "make decisions based solely on policy". I would very much welcome third opinions that are attempting to apply Wiki policy to each dispute we have here. I've wondered what other possible basis there could be for reasonable resolution. Thank you. Larry Sarner 08:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

One of the issues is that sarner, along with mercer, is a leader of a fringe group, ACT, and appears to have a specific agenda. Repeated attempts to have sarner state all the issues and suggested changes and recommendations have fallen on deaf ears...in fact he has directly refused to state his intentions and his specific changes. Given this adamant refusal to compromise, build or accept consensus, or collaborate, it is very difficult to see how his dispute can be resolved without outside intervention. As I said, I have contributed beyond John Bowlby and Attachment Theory...if the net is cast more broadly to include treatment or child treatment, then it is true...but sarner has only contributed to an even narrow range of pages and topics, so does he propose to eliminate himself too? That would not make any sense. Regardless, getting others involved and having an outside group settle this would be good. DPeterson 14:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not an admin - just a fairly experienced user. Re the mediator's suggestion, I don't think that a third opinion would be appropriate here, since the dispute is not just between two parties, but Mr Sarner is entirely free to file an article RfC if he so wishes. --David.Mestel 16:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Alas, this is an ill-formed request with two problems. I had corrected them in a simple way earlier, but DPeterson reverted it, so I guess everything, even the statement of the dispute, involves a hassle. So here goes:

This is not "the dispute", this is "a dispute". It shouldn't be said that this issue is the only outstanding one. I haven't gotten to the others because we've gotten so tangled up on this one. Perhaps, if we can set an approach here on this one as to how to settle disputes here, it could move the other things right along.

Next, the two positions in this dispute are: one side (which includes me) wants to delete the Theraplay and DDP links from the See Also section. The other side wants to keep at least one, and the preferred one is DDP.

Could the mediator refactor his request along these lines, please?

Larry Sarner 19:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be so much easier to reach consensus by compromise and collaboration 'if sarner listed all his ideas.' However he has been steadfast in his refusal to do that. I would say there are actually three options. The one that sarner wants: removal of all, Leaving both references in place as the page had before sarner got involved, and the compromise offered, to only list Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. DPeterson 20:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, there is a fourth outcome, too. That is to only list Theraplay. The reaction to that outcome, when suggested before, revealed that the list-only-DDP is a sham as a "compromise". The real dispute over the See Also has just two real positions to choose from, which I think I fairly stated above. I think I can state the arguments supporting my position pretty succinctly and cogently when the mediator refactors his request. JonesRD's inputs to the existing choices exposes the flaws in the present request. Larry Sarner 21:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

YOur fourth option was never raised, but if you want to see that as an outcome, why don't you propose it and see if there is as much consensus for that proposal as for the 'Proposed Compromise.'DPeterson 22:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I raised it. I didn't support it, but I raised it -- to point out that there wasn't any good reason to choose DDP over Theraplay in the compromise and that the choice was made for other reasons than were being put forward. I was attempting to expose the sham of the "compromise". That was achieved when the comment shot back that the very idea was "absurd". Larry Sarner 23:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr Sarner, we prefer DDP to remain for the compromise because it is clearly more relevant to Bowlby. --David.Mestel 14:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Master Mestel, "clearly" is an unsupportable claim. Anyway, both are clearly irrelevant to a Bowlby encyclopedic article, just DDP is more so. Larry Sarner 15:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I just realized something about the article. It appears that Theraplay and Dyadic developmental psychotherapy are already mentioned in the article, and then very shortly thereafter they are mentioned again. I looked over Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (links) and Misplaced Pages:Guide_to_layout#See_also, which states that The "See also" section provides an additional list of internal links as a navigational aid, and it should ideally not repeat links already present in the article. These two links are already mentioned several sentences above the see also section, as is attachment theory and attachment disorder. So, as a new compromise, based on Misplaced Pages:Guide to layout, since all of those contents are already mentioned directly above the see also section how would you feel if the see also section was trimmed down to only containing Reactive attachment disorder? Cowman109 17:02, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that the See Also section is also a quick way for the reader to discover significant things that the subject is connected with, and to give a brief idea of where to go from here if they wish to investigate the subject further. We would therefore restate our current compromise offer. --David.Mestel 17:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As a frequent reader, much less frequent editor, I agree with the previous point. When reading an article I look the the also see section as a quick reference point for links to related articles. This way I don't have to jump to a link as I am reading and get distracted...or have to search through an article to find the link. It is much more convenient, for me, to have links in that also see section and it does not add any real clutter to the page, so it would not be a distraction. JohnsonRon 19:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it would be best to trim it down to Attachment theory, but it was my compromise proposal that the five existing references be trimmed down to the three, though I felt only one (Attachment theory) was fully justifiable under Wiki style guidelines. However, you actually have just returned to Brivegas's proposal. I actually have no problem with it (though the others do), except for the notion that it is based on the idea that the appearance of these links obviates the need for them in the See Also. The problem for me is that the appearance of these links in the Legacy section is not a settled matter and if, after discussion, they left the Legacy section, they shouldn't re-appear in the See Also.

This addresses a fundamental point I have, in that the inclusion of these links in See Also should be decided as a matter of style, policy, and logic. So far, it has been debated as a matter to be decided by who has more votes on a given day.

Larry Sarner 23:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the comment that readers prefer all the links in the Also See Section is a valid one and supports the idea of leaving all the links there as they currently are. So, since each of those links is related to Bowlby and his work and his legacy, the way the page reads ought to stay as it is. The consensus is clear. Misplaced Pages works on developing consensus and it appears we really have that. The reasonsing of the various contribuors is consistent with Misplaced Pages style, policy, and logic. DPeterson 00:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Reasoning for each side of the dispute

Alright, then. The <current> dispute involves the inclusion of Theraplay and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy in the See also section. Just to make things clear, starting now, put all your accusations of eachother having an agenda behind you and instead focus on the issue. I have a firm stance on WP:IAR and WP:RPA, and if any further comments arise that don't serve a purpose in improving this article by focusing on just that - the article, then I will edit them out (it is a wiki after all). Follow Wikiquette at all times. I am going to see if I can get some other people to look at this case through a RFC. Just in the interest of bringing up any future users up to speed, could someone briefly explain the reasoning for each side of the argument? I don't want an essay, seriously :) Just a short, short summary. If it is an essay, I will try to refactor it to make it more reader-friendly. Thanks. Cowman109 16:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I moved the large block of discussion above this for readability. As I stated earlier, if there are accusations of someone doing something they shouldn't have, don't leave it here as that only makes the situation more tense, and instead leave me a note on my talk page (or e-mail to be private). I have also included the two other options for this dispute that were not listed earlier. Thanks. Cowman109 22:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Why to include both:

1. Reason...These are both based on his work and are a direct result of his work developing Attachment theory. It may be appropriate to list in this Also See section various other methods based on his work, Circle of Security, DIR, Floor Time, etc. etc. Further more, listing two or three or four words here hardly detracts from the article and will allow readers to explore other links by finding those related links in one convenient place. JonesRD 21:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Reason...It is easier for readers to find links in the Also See section than to have to root around in the article or to jump to other pages in the middle rather than have one convenient location for all links, which is the purpose of the Also See Section. DPeterson 00:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

'JonesRD 22:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)'There seemed to be a broad consensus to keep all references in the Also See section but for the sake of compromise and collaboration, for some to be deleted to appease one contributor. The compromise was offered primarily to appease that one. Keeping both references, or, again, for the sake of compromised and to appease one contributor, keep Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy but remove Theraplay would be a further compromise. Both articles are directly related to Bowlby and his work. The articles demonstrate that his work remains vital and active, especially among licensed mental health practitioners. Both, but especially Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy are strongly rooted in the work of Bowlby. They show how Bowlby is a giant in the field of clinical mental health practice, psychology, and related disciplines.

1. Many, most(?) pages have cross-references and links in the Also See section to related pages. This helps readers see relationships and threads that flow directly from the reference page.
2. The links are closely related to Bowlby. Bowlby and his work directly led to the Development of Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy and Theraplay of which I am less familiar. The two treatments are based on Bowlby's life's work and are excellent examples of how his work remain current and vital and contemporary.
3. Many people would like to see how the man and his work are alive today and used practically and directly to help. How Bowlby's work has led to the development of practical applications and treatment is of interest to readers of Bowlby and his life.
4. A direct link facilitates information gathering and shows the important links among closely related topics.
5. Point 4 below argues for the inclusion of additional, not fewer, Also See links and references. I concur with that.
6. Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy has a direct link to Bowlby and his life's work. In all the published materials about Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy (Books, several professional peer-reviewed journal articles), Bowlby is prominanlty quoted and used as a source and resource. the work is closely based on Bowlby's work and tightly linked to his theory and the practical application of his theory to helping others.

JonesRD 22:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above points by JonesRD. In addition,

1. Many readers will want to be able to easily pursue links and not have to either search the article to find links or jump to other pages before they have completed the article.
2. The references are all related to Bowlby as the treatments approaches directly flow from Bowlby's work.
3. The references show how relevant Bowlbly's work remains and that he is a major figure in psychology and child welfare. Therefore, current applications of his writing are relevent.
4. We are only talking about less than fifty letter in total, two lines.

'Dr. Art 22:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)'

• Why to delete Theraplay but keep Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy:

1. Reason...See above. However for the sake of ending this discussion, this may be an acceptable compromise. One "wild card" is what other changes Larry Sarner is proposing and how that may affect the article. JonesRD 21:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Reason...See Above. Only for the sake of compromise. DPeterson 00:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Why to include Theraplay but delete Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy

(Larry Sarner 15:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)) When the counter-offer (misnomered "the compromise") was made to delete just one of the disputed two links, and that the deleted one be Theraplay, there was no basis for distinguishment between the two links so as to choose Theraplay for deletion over the other. However:

1. It was argued by the first mediator that there was no mention of Bowlby in the Theraplay article, but a mention was subsequently added by someone supporting the counter-offer. The added mention paralleled the mention in the other disputed article when the first suggested the approach found in the counter-offer, eliminating that possible distinguishment (and illustrating the superficiality of the counter-offer).
2. Theraplay is contemporaneous to Bowlby's development of attachment theory and had more opportunity to be directly informed by Bowlby himself.
3. Both links were originally added by someone with a more direct financial interest in the other one than Theraplay. Eliminating the other one instead of Theraplay would serve Wiki's policy against spam.
4. A "compromise" between parties is one where both parties actually give up something for the sake of agreement. The direct financial interest of the proposing party is actually served by removing the Theraplay link and especially keeping the other. (Big surprise, since his advocate proposed the "compromise".) If the approach was truly a "compromise", Theraplay would be retained and the other deleted.

'Dr. Art 18:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)'I find the reasoning above to be faulty.

1. The accusation of financial interests is made without any support...If it is relevant, then I suppose Larry Sarner's financial interests and links to a "fringe" group Advocates for Children In Therapy and other interests would be relevant, perhaps.
2. The accusation of financial interests is baseless and false...to say that all those who disagree with Larry Sarner and support leaving both links in place or at least one have financial interests is untrue and beside the point.
3. Given the above logic, it would probably be best to just leave both links in place and add other related links as well. Dr. Art 18:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Why to delete both

Larry Sarner: There were reasonable objections to four of the five cross-references in the See Also section (to all but the Attachment theory article). It was felt that it could be a reasonable compromise to delete two of the four (DDP and Theraplay) -- those with the least (in fact, negligible) relationship to John Bowlby the man. The principal reasons for choosing these two in particular are:

1. Wiki style suggests that cross-references are more for those who want to follow a thread of curiosity. As explained in #2 below, the subject matter of these articles is too remote from Bowlby to warrant a direct link. Moreover, the articles themselves have only passing references to Bowlby and do not throw any additional light on Bowlby (the man) that would warrant sending a reader curious about Bowlby directly to these particular articles.
2. It is reasonable and natural to expect that curiosity might lead a reader to Attachment Theory and maybe (though less likely) to the Attachment Disorder and Reactive Attachment Disorder articles. If, arguendo, a reader might eventually be interested in DDP or Theraplay, it wouldn't be the case they would jump directly to those subjects or articles, but more probably should explore at least the Attachment Theory article beforehand. That article would give a context that could lead the reader to decide whether these are articles that might interest them. A direct link in the Bowlby article short-circuits that very desirable information-gathering and decision process.
3. Additionally from the reasons given in #1 and #2 above, too many readers might be taken to articles (DDP and Theraplay) that would not actually interest them. Disrupted attachments, according to the DSM and child-development experts, are extremely uncommon. For reasons given in #4 below, the vast majority of readers interested in Bowlby's biography would have almost no interest in attachment pathology; the few who do would be best served by first going to Attachment theory (see discussion in #2) and follow any links found there. For the rest, it would be a service not to send them down a dead-end (for them).
4. Focusing the cross-references so heavily on the pathology in an article on Bowlby is the tail wagging the dog. The Legacy section needs needs to be rewritten to give a better balance to Bowlby's true contributions to psychology and child development, which were not so much in the area of treatment of pathology but on a scientific understanding of normal infant/child attachment and emotional development. When such a rewrite is accomplished, the DDP and Theraplay links will appear even more obviously extraneous and misdirecting than they are now.
5. It is not reliably established, especially through Wiki verifiability, that DDP and Theraplay have any direct relationship to Bowlby or his work, much less truly follow his theoretical principles and understanding. Including the links implies that such is actually the case, or worse, that Bowlby had something to do with them. That is a disservice to all readers of the Bowlby article (whether or not they visit the other articles), not to mention to the memory and achievements of Bowlby himself.

"It was felt" by you, Mr Sarner. That was not the consensus.--David Mestel 18:32, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Very True. I believe one of the other contributors/editors also makes this point above. Dr. Art 22:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I will gladly discuss this with you, and consider improving my statement of these reasons, if you will move these added comments to another section for discussion, where they should have been made in the first place. Larry Sarner 15:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

References

The reference to the Child and Adolescent Social Work article was posted by Dr. Jean Sarner and so should be know to her associate and colleague, Larry Sarner. See Attachment Therapy. The full citation is: Becker-Weidman, A., (2006). Treatment for children with trauma-attachment disorders: Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. Child and Adolescent Social Work Journal on line edition and 13-1, April 2006 in print.

The other reference is 'New Developments in Child Abuse Research' edited by Stanley M. Sturt, 2006, Nova Science. (Also a professional peer-reviewed publication as is CASWJ.

I hope this clears up any confusion and can end the dialogue on this point. Arthur Becker-Weidman, Ph.D.

Dr. Art 16:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

An "in-print" (or rather "in press") article is not a reliable source. It has to be published and referenceable where others can get a hold of it. The errors in the abstract of the online version shows that it is obviously a pre-publication version and can't count. (By the way, not even the TOC for the April issue of CASWJ has been revealed, so we just have your word for it that it is appearing at all.)

The New Developments book is so new that no libraries yet have it, but a look at the TOC online, as well as the article title, it looks like it is a review article, not a report of original research.

So, if you are hanging your hat on this references, well, the best that can be said is that jury is still out and DDP is still not been subjected to the judgment of the scientific community.

We can revisit this when the CASJW article is actually published. Until then, we cannot say that DDP is evidence-based (much less, that is accepted by the scientific community). Of course, you may have other "evidence", but you have yet to cite any.

Larry Sarner 17:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As a licensed mental health professional, the article in considered published and in final form. What is on the web is identical with the print version. The 'New Developments in Child Abuse Research' is in my library. The article is not a review but a report of original research. In addition, Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy is based on sound clinical principles with an extensive history of proven effectiveness...So, as Dr. Becker-Weidman has stated, "I hope this clears up any confusion and can end the dialogue on this point." DPeterson 18:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As an author who has published in real peer-reviewed literature (medical and legal), I can say definitively that an article is not considered published until it is published. How can you say that what is on the web is identical with the print version when there is no print version? Moreover, given the errors in the abstract, it would be quite embarrassing for self-respecting editors to publish something in that condition.

Congratulations to your local library (I'm guessing you didn't mean your personal library) for being so quick on the uptake (and able to afford such a pricy volume), since the publisher (an upscale Author mill?) has barely released it (and maybe actually hasn't yet). Perhaps ILL can get it for us out here in the boonies. In the meantime, would you deign to answer a simple question about it? Since you've said that you've read both it and the putative CASWJ article, does the former piece report on the same research reported in the latter?

You still haven't justified a statement like DDP has "an extensive history of proven effectiveness". Justification would require extensive publishing about it over time in the peer-reviewed mental-health literature. Neither you nor any of the others have pointed to any, and a search of the authoritative PsychLit index shows that you won't be able to.

Obviously, Mr Becker-Weidman's poor citations has only added to the smoke surrounding the matter.

Larry Sarner 15:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

There being two publications directly comparing Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy to control groups in professioal peer-reviewed publications as well as the fact that the various methods and dimensions of this treatment have extensive histories of research behind them allow it to be stated taht this is an effective evidence-basesd treatment accepted by the professional community of licensed mental health professionals. Dr. Arthur Becker-Weidman 20:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In reply, please see my comments above. Your statements are not based on reliable sources that you can and do cite. Moreover, your statement about professional acceptance is a self-serving exaggeration (or at least an unsupportable conclusion). As the APSAC report itself makes clear, DDP employs methods and dimensions that are 'condemned' by the professional community. Larry Sarner 15:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

My reading of the APSAC reports indicates that you are misreading and misrepresenting the report. RalphLender 16:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd better read it again, then. Those two little words "age regression" are going to be the crux of any critique of the theory behind DDP. But folks, may I point out that the topic here is supposed to be John Bowlby? There's a separate page about attachment theory, where implications could be explored, and indeed would have to be, as the study of attachment has gone quite a bit beyond Bowlby's basic ideas.Jean Mercer 21:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

"age-regression" is another term with ambig. meaning. If it means making seeking past lives or forcing children against their will to engage in behavior that is shaming...that is unacceptable. If it means treating a child at the child's developmental age, not chronological age, then it is standard acceptable clinical practice as any licensed mental health clinician would know. RalphLender 21:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The report, of course, used the term as DDP was using it, since in its wording condemning age-regression it used DDP as an example of what it was condemning. Even Mr Becker-Weidman had to admit here earlier that that was the case. Larry Sarner 14:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

We, of course, are still waiting for a citation of a published reliable source for any of the claims that Mr Becker-Weidman has just made. A search of the PsychLit index suggests strongly that those claims are baseless. Larry Sarner 14:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Reliable sources have been provided. Nova Science Press is a peer reviewed publication, as is CASWJ. And, of course, the treatment is based on many sound clinical principles with years of extensive outcome research supporting it. I will ask you here to please stop spreading false information. Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy does not use "age regression" as a treatment approach. Nor do I believe

Dr. Becker-Weidman made any such comment that Dyadic Developmetal Psychotherapy advoctes the forcing of children or teens to engage in activities that are not age-appropriate. Dyadic Developmental Psychotheray does advocate using reliable and valid measures, such as the Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales-II to assess a child's developmental age and treating the child accordingly, which is sound clinical practice. (See APA and/or NASW code of ethics or any basic counseling or treatment text, also Creating Capacity for Attachment, 2005). RalphLender

Debate on Also See section over now?

I assume since Larry Sarner has been banned from editing this page that the debate about the Also See section has ended and the section can stand as is, or with the addition of links as other contributors/editors see fit. JohnsonRon 16:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say that? Obviously I haven't been banned. We're still under the "gentleman's agreement" not to change the page unilaterally while we're in mediation. Saying I've been banned is a calumny that you should retract immediately. Larry Sarner 17:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that JohnsonRon is correct. On your talk page there is the following statement which is not a "gentleman's agreement," but a ban:

Dear Larry: Thank you for your message. I apologise that you disagree with my decision. My duty as a Misplaced Pages administrator is, in part, to prevent contentious editing from occurring on articles; consequently, I have the authority to implement blocks and, in terms of general community precedent, specific bans - although, it is true, only article bans passed by the Arbitration Committee are binding as per policy, the alternate approach would have been to block you indefinitely from editing Misplaced Pages for disruptive editing, which I could well have done (and have the specific authority to do) but thought it more reasonable merely to remove you from the Barrett article. I have done the same with OKO (talk • contribs) who is engaging in similar behaviour, as both your accounts show a specific fixation towards editing the Stephen Barrett article (in your case, that article and John Bowlby); Arbitration Committee precedent is that users who engage in disruptive, fixated editing on an article may be banned from editing that article (see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Regarding The Bogdanov Affair, for instance). I have no interest in the dispute on the Stephen Barrett talk page, and pass no judgement over whether Levine2112's edits are either POV or NPOV as I have not looked into the user's contributions. I aver that my actions are not that of a terrorist, but an individual whose duty it is to ensure the mechanisms of Misplaced Pages are kept free of disruption. Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Sarner" JonesRD 17:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Either way, could you all please read what I've said above? Thanks. Cowman109

Thank you, JonesRD, for cross-posting the above statement from my talk page. It was so helpful. The wording specifically says I am banned from editing the Steve Barrett article and only that article. You must know from reading it that it means I am not banned from editing this article. I found your action helps me to better assess what commentary is factually reliable. Larry Sarner 14:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It says "(in your case, that article and John Bowlby)" RalphLender

Sarner is not banned from editing this article (see User_talk:JonesRD. However, Sarner, could you please respond to the proposal I made earlier? I'll move it down here for readability. Thanks. Cowman109 15:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, then. I want you all to take a step back and take a deep breath. We are arguing over links in the see also section. Looking at all this evidence, each link in the see also section has some relation to John Bowlby. There are many articles with many more links in the see also section of articles. I think some of us are interpreting it in the wrong way as a 'disservice' to John Bowlby, but the see also section is just a simple section to assist readers who want to, well, see more. :) I think some of us are wrongly interpreting the see also section as some sort of attack on John Bowlby, but it is not that at all. So, basically, the see also section is still very short and there is no need to trim it down further (which seems to be one of the main reasonings: that it's too long). I say this as a third party who is looking at this only from the standpoint of an uninvolved. It seems that the compromise offers are there solely for the point of compromise and there is no straightforward Misplaced Pages policy I can find that gives reasoning to remove them. Some readers will likely be interested in seeing what works have followed John Bowlby's work, and until the see also section becomes unreasonably long I don't think it is necessary to have this much of a dispute. Also, remember that if you are involved in some way to John Bowlby, remember you may be subconsciously biased in some way per WP:AUTO, so it is important to remember that we are here to build an encyclopedia and not to protect or harm one's image or legacy. So, how does that sound? Cowman109 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Quite reasonable. That seems to capture the consensus of the majority of other editors. Thank you. DPeterson 18:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. That would be perfectly acceptable to me and my client. --David Mestel 19:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be an acceptable resolution. RalphLender 16:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lack of connection for DDP and Theraplay

It is quite embarrassing for Misplaced Pages that Hughes and Jernberg are listed along with the likes of Lieberman, Greenspan, Dozier, Marvin, Schechter, and Osofsky. A search of PsychInfo, the index to psych literature, the latter 5 have dozens of publications (esp. research articles) to their credit, while Hughes has three non-research publications and Jernberg has none of any sort.

DDP and Theraplay are in reality pop psychology interventions with no significant empirical support, so they should be removed from the article. Also, unlike the others they do not have any academic pedigree connecting them even to Attachment Theory, much less to Bowlby himself. That's another reason to remove them.

Larry Sarner 22:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

These two approaches are based in the works of John Bowlby. They not "pop" psychology. Each have several publications and are reputable therapuetic treatment approaches. Each have a variety of articles and books clearly linking the approaches to Attachment Theory and John Bowlby. They should stay...however, if you feel a poll would be useful to see what the consensus is, that would be a reasonable approach to follow before begining to edit the page...last time you were here you did create quite a problem and, if I read the history right, were asked to stop editing this page for a while. so, lets proceed reasonably and slowly and try to build consensus this time, ok. SamDavidson 17:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You'll have to justify that statement that these two approaches are based on Bowlby. Of course they are pop psychology. There are no publications in the psychology literature on either one. The others in the list are quite well supported in the scientific corpus of psychological literature. If you want to build "consensus" about following Wiki policy, fine, but the two should not be in the list until it can be established that they come up to the standards by which the others are listed. Larry Sarner 00:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

If you read the citations and verifiable sources mentioned, you will see the references to Bowlby. Reference list includes ample references in the professional psychology literature to both approaches. Not being familiar with the field, you may not have noticed that. As an advoate and leader of Advocates for Children in Therapy I understand your bias and perspective. I urge you to leave this page alone as your edits have resulted in problems in the past. However, if you wish to make a change, I'd suggest you being a poll to see if others share your unique view. DPeterson 01:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

No citations have been given for Theraplay. One of the citations previously given for DDP is unreliable and the other is unverifiable. Neither support the inclusion of DDP or Theraplay in a list of "evidence-based" therapy (as the NIMH defines it) or "mainstream" therapy. By Wiki policy (not uniquely my view), such unverified claims must not be in the article until someone cites a reliable and verifiable source that shows they can be included. Larry Sarner 16:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The See also section provide links to relevant Misplaced Pages articles. I see that you have a history of problems with this article and began a revert war previously and were "banned" for a while for editing this page. Please don't start again. JohnsonRon 22:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Citations and Sarner's previous disruptive edits

Well, I will add a citation for Theraplay in the reference section. The citations I see for Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy are reliable and clearly meet the Misplaced Pages criteria for verifiable as they are in professional peer-reviewed journals. These are verified entries and should remain. However, if you wish, you might seek mediation, since you are alone. I also notice that your initiated a similiar fight a while ago here and on other pages and were eventually banned for a period of time...or at least asked to stop editing as you were disruptive. Please don't start that again. SamDavidson 17:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I see there already is a link in the Also see section, so nothing additional is needed here. SamDavidson 17:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The disruptions were all on the other side. The citations for DDP do not establish either it is "mainstream" or "evidence-based". I was not banned here. I am not alone, just don't have a lot of sock- or meat-puppets set up. The link in the See Also is advertising. If you add a citation for Theraplay, have it address the question as to whether it is "mainstream" and "evidence-based". Good luck. Larry Sarner 18:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

You were previously banned from editing this page because of your disruptive editing and behavior. I know that you say you "voluntarily" agreed to take a break, but the fact remains that you were sanctioned on this page for your Uncivil behavior and for being disruptive. Please do not sart that again. If you want a change, propose it in a section and see what develops...or ask for mediation or some other Misplaced Pages standard for resolving disputes such as a poll, etc.. You seem to be the only one on these pages with a problem with this material. This issue was hashed out with your months ago...why start being disruptive again? JohnsonRon 22:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop the ad hominem. I'm editing this for accuracy. The issue I'm raising was not hashed out previously. Truth isn't decided by a poll. I've stated my reasons for the minor edits I've made. The items are properly deleted. The only disruption is re-inserting without citation from reliable and verifiable sources; so far none have been forthcoming. You can request mediation if you want, but the disputed part of the article should remain as I edited it until that mediation is over. Larry Sarner 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a verifiable fact, not an ad hominem statement. A consensus occured and you were banned from continuing to make destructive changes...at least that's how I read the talk page here and the related Admin pages. The material is on this page, so it is up to you to explain why it should be deleted and to see if you can convince others to agree with you (building consensus it is called); not bully other editors by contining to unilaterally make changes that are unsupported and acting in a disruptive and provocative manner. Misplaced Pages is built on consensus, not bully actions or brute force. So, in the interestes of building consensus, why don't you suggest what you want and see if anyone agrees with you and try to build consensus...or if you don't like that dispute resolution process, try a poll, or if you don't like that dispute resolution process, try mediation, as that would also be an appropriate step.JohnsonRon 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree completely with your historical revisionism -- here and in the article. I have already given my reasons and asked for verification from acceptable sources for inclusion of the disputed entries in the list. No one has responded in the least with citations supporting the inclusions. Without those supporting citations, they should be removed per Wiki policy. Why go further when this elementary level has not been met? Larry Sarner 07:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please stop being bully by deleting material. this issue was discussed and resolved previously. Your reasons for raising this issue again continue to result in no support as they did the last time you started an edit/revert war and were sanctioned. Try to follow Wikkipedia policy regarding resolving disputes by considering: taking a poll, engaging in mediation, arbitration, etc. Merely starting an edit and revert war, as you did on the this page, which cause you to be sanctioned, is not constructive. The two treatment modalities are relevant as are the others listed as examples of Bowlby's theory in practice and are his legacy. Citations are there for all the listed treatments. Please stop being a bully here...that is what got you sanctioned last time you did this. Instead, follow Misplaced Pages dispute resolution policy. JohnsonRon 11:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Sarner Has begun to Violate Misplaced Pages practices as he did previously on this article

Sarner has begin to bully other editors on this page as he did in the past and was sanctioned for. It would be good if other editors would become involved. He has refused to engage in Misplaced Pages dispute resolution practices, as he refused in the past (see this talk page above for history and the related admin pages where he has sanctioned (asked to not edit this page). I have asked him to Please stop being bully by deleting material, but he refuses. The issue he is raising is the same one he was involved in last time and was sanctioned for. In the spirit of dispute resolution, I invite others to comment here on this as a first step in dispute resolution. JohnsonRon 11:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

And these are on the page...just go to the relevant Misplaced Pages articles. To repeat the previous editors comments regarding your bullying and continued (from several months ago) destructive editing practices that were sanctioned:

Sarner has begin to bully other editors on this page as he did in the past and was sanctioned for. It would be good if other editors would become involved. He has refused to engage in Misplaced Pages dispute resolution practices, as he refused in the past (see this talk page above for history and the related admin pages where he has sanctioned (asked to not edit this page). I have asked him to Please stop being bully by deleting material, but he refuses. The issue he is raising is the same one he was involved in last time and was sanctioned for. In the spirit of dispute resolution, I invite others to comment here on this as a first step in dispute resolution.

DPeterson 12:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to get a verifiable and reliable citation for the claims that DDP and Theraplay are "mainstream" and "evidence-based". All I've gotten in response are personal attacks and insistence on conducting polls. The way to reach "consensus" is to follow Wiki policy. Either there are citations to establish the claims or the entries must be considered vanity mentions. All other responses are non sequiturs. Vanity mentions should not be permitted to remain in the article, per Wiki policy. It is not disruptive to Wiki to insist upon policy being followed. Larry Sarner 06:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, there is nothing in the previous comments that addresses the "mainstream" or other issues. Nor is there anything in the immediately preceding comments. I wouldn't want to engage in a senseless revert war. Nor do I want to be a "bully" by deleting material that properly belongs in the article. Nor do I engage in name-calling or historical revisionism. I'm just a simple editor who is a belief in the soundness of Wiki policy and a good-faith desire to improve this article. Therefore, let me try something else to achieve what I think is needed here. I am putting in a tag for the two questionable therapies. I would remind everyone that there are Wiki rules about the proper removal of such tags. There are also standards for reliability and of the citations required to satisfy the rules, and for the sources cited actually addressing the principal claim at issue, namely that these are "reliably tested techniques which were not only congruent with attachment theory, but with other established principles of child development" done by "established researchers or academics". If no satisfactory citations are brought after a reasonable period of time, I will feel justified and empowered to remove the two therapies in question. Larry Sarner 05:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages articles are the sources you are seeking for those two treatments just like they are the sources for the other treatments mentioned in the section. You were banned from this page once....please assume good faith and try to build consensus or engage in appropriate Misplaced Pages dispute resolution processes. The Misplaced Pages articles cited and the references on those pages meet the Misplaced Pages standard of being verifiable. You may disagree and not like what you read, but the material is still appropriate as it is relevent as many other editors also seem to feel. RalphLender 13:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles cannot be a source for information in other articles. Reliable Sources Each has to stand on its own. Moreover, the information I am have requested is not in those articles. You seem to be ignoring the fact that I have compromised and used the tag to give both sides a chance to discuss the issue here. If you have no intention of discussing the disagreement here, but just reverting my edits wholesale, then I am forced to assume that you have no answer for my request -- which doesn't surprise me. (By the way, why do you and the others keep using links like "good faith" and "verifiable" which lead to Wiki articles that have nothing to do with the price of tea in China? Larry Sarner 00:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Each article cites verifiable and reliable sources. DPeterson 00:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

'WARNINGS HAVE BEEN PLACED ON YOUR TALK PAGE' Please stop vandalizing this page by your acts of reverting to versions that do not represent consensus. As you have been urged to do, please follow Misplaced Pages practices and procedures regarding disputes and stop trying to bully everyone. This is what got you blocked from the Bowlby article in the past. DPeterson 00:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I see that the same type of actions by Sarner are occuring again here...the actions that led to his being blocked at one point from editing this page. I encourage Sarner to follow dispute resolution procedures and consider the suggestion of other editors to build consensus here.MarkWood 13:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Outside view and a suggestion

I came to this page through Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts. First, I ask everyone to stop referring to the current edit war as vandalism or bullying. Inflammatory words tend to turn up the heat on a disagreement. This is a content dispute. I don't have enough specialized knowledge of the field to know whether this is a reasonable content dispute, but a new guideline called Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing might apply here. I suggest you open a request for comment on the article and each side summarize the dispute in a section for visitors. Best wishes, Durova 01:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Thank you for the reference to Disruptive Editing. I also found Tendentious Editing had great application here. Larry Sarner 05:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do hope you carefully read both documents and consider adhering to those and to the Misplaced Pages procedures for dispute resolution. MarkWood 13:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

As I indicated above, I have studied both. I am sanguine about my own actions since resuming editing after taking a prolonged break. They appear to me to be consistent with the dispute resolution process outlined there and in Dispute Resolution. They certainly aren't "vandalism". Larry Sarner 19:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

May I comment further? I was one of the core editors who wrote the WP:DE guideline in order to streamline resolution of certain types of content disputes. A key step in doing that is to find a consensus of impartial editors - and the easiest way to sound uninvolved editors for their opinions is WP:RFC. Regards, Durova 14:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. As I read this talk page and the others where similiar disputes have occurred, that is all the various editors want...just adhere to the procedure for dispute resolution and try to build agreement. RalphLender 14:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The key, of course, is to get some impartial editors to opine on the content of this and other pages and do away with this talk about "vandalism" on the part of anyone who disagrees with the other side. There has been a history, here and elsewhere, of new editors (no Wiki history) popping up and echoing the other side in order to establish a phony "consensus", in effect just voting rather than discussing. We could use some experienced, uninvolved editors here to keep an eye toward dispute resolution that is congruent with Wiki's interests (and policy). Larry Sarner 19:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Assume good faith That will go along way to building consensus. You were previously blocked for provocative uncivil behavior...let's try to avoid that this time (same topic that caused the problem last time). RalphLender 20:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Accusations of sockpuppetry, even when referred to in a roundabout manner, are a serious matter. From my reading of the page history the old disputes happened several months ago. It's better to treat such matters as water under the bridge and (if some new question crops up) request a checkuser. Durova 20:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

This is precisely the behavior that resulted in Sarner's being blocked here previously. I hope you can keep this dialogue civil. I've been on the other end of Sarner's uncivil remarks and really do not appreciate it, but I can assume good faith and would like to see Sarner agree to participate in our dispute resolution procedures. JonesRD_talk 20:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Whether these people are all the same person or not, they show no independence of opinion or editing activity, and seem to have come on to Wiki for the express purpose of engaging on this or related articles. I was above just expressing the hope that some other editors, with some impartiality and real history of Wiki editing on other topics, might get involved. I would ask editor Durova if, in her review of this talk page if my discussions here lately have been uncivil. I have really tried to stick to the issue(s). Larry Sarner 22:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

MAKE SUGGESTED EDITS HERE FOR CONSENSUS

I urge you to make proposed changes here for community discussion rather than continuing to revert and change what represented a broad consensus. This way you can detail what you propose to add, delete, and change and other editors can comment and we can build another consensus. JonesRD_talk 21:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

That's one approach, but it sounds an awful lot like having to clear changes ahead of time, or "de facto" (non-administrator) protection. Wiki is supposed to be an open encyclopedia. No one person or group has ownership of an article. I've seen it said on Wiki, "If you don't want what you write mercilessly edited, don't write it here". How about this approach, instead: If anyone disputes something that has been added by another editor, put a tag next to it, open up a section on this talk page and discuss it. The tag stays up until a genuine consensus (or other dispute resolution) is reached. I think the template for such a tag was created just for situations like this. Larry Sarner 22:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

See, there you go again, Sarner, creating needless conflict and stiffling attempts to build consensus. The page represented a consensus developed in the past, after you were blocked for a while. To build another consensus, you should participate in a colloaborative effort to build consensus and not continue to be uncivil and rever other's changes and ignore the consensus on this page. Your edits have been "mercilessly edited" because no one agrees with you. However, I am willing to engage with you in a reasoned dialogue focused on building agreement. Changes not accepted are reverted because you are pushing a very limited and unaccepted view. But, I think we can find agreement if you will follow Misplaced Pages practices regarding dispute resolution. DPeterson 23:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I take it that's a no to my suggestion (which was, I think, exactly in line with Wiki practices, guidelines, and policy -- why else would Wiki create such templates). Sigh. Larry Sarner 00:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

'I urge you to make proposed changes' here for community discussion rather than continuing to revert and change what represented a broad consensus. This way you can detail what you propose to add, delete, and change and other editors can comment and we can build another consensus. 'Please stop being contentious' and creating conflict rather than building coneensus through collaboration as I keep trying to do. DPeterson 00:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I echo the above: As recommended by several other editors, you have been asked to stop reverting from the consensus version to your own. Since you've rejected taking a poll and various other Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures; let me suggest another option. Instead of merely reverting to your version and deleting material that others find acceptable, how about if you just 'ADD' what you think would improve the article first, get a consensus on that and then begin discussions about what you think should be chnaged or delted and build consensus for that?RalphLender 15:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I see no evidence of sincerity in your making this "option". I did exactly what you suggested over an hour before you posted this. I even summarized it as "restoring meat-axed edits". And it was you who reverted those edits! I've given you 24 hours and more to catch yourself and voluntarily back off your edit, but you haven't. "R.D. Jones" had reverted similar edits in the past. So, I'll go back to an earlier attempt -- put in my additions, also add very proper {Dubious} tag in good faith, and see what you and the others from Buffalo decide to do to my good-faith efforts at editing on Misplaced Pages. Larry Sarner 19:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Sarner, this is the type of behavior (uncivil and in violation of wikipedia assume good faith) that led to your previoulsy being blocked on this page. Please follow RalphLender's suggestions. They are good and will lead to consensus, if you will be collaborative and cooperative instead of continually reverting and engaging in behavior that increases the problems. Please adhere to Misplaced Pages dispute resolution policies. JonesRD_talk 19:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Go Around of This issue

Two "therapies" have been listed in this article that I tagged as disputed to be in a list of "approaches us reliably tested and reviewed techniques which were not only congruent with attachment theory, but with other established principles of child development" and have been developed by established researchers and academics. These are: "Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy" (DDP) and "Theraplay".

The DDP article itself is under heavy dispute and until it is resolved there, it should not be listed here without a Dispute tag.

Theraplay is Pop psychology with absolutely no scientific evidentiary basis, and so also should not be included. For now, I've just tagged it to give an opportunity to others to provide that scientific evidentiary basis from reliable and verifiable sources.

Larry Sarner 19:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This issue has been extensively discussed and all editors with the exception of Sarner, have found the material adequate and appropriate. He raised this issue in the past and, just as now, was told that he should stop as the material is very salient. JohnsonRon 20:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Not all, just about six. The information is an unneeded advert for very obscure therapies. Neither has a solid evidential basis as we are discussing on the DDP article. I'll place an npov tag on that section until the dispute is resolved because DDP and theraplay are being given undue weight. Please do not remove the tag unless the dipute is settled. Such tags are a way to prevent edit wars. shotwell 13:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The information is identical to the information about other treatments derived from Bowlby's work. There is a clear evidential basis here...you and your colleague, Sarner, just don't agree. He was previouly blocked here for his conduct on this very same issue!! There really is not dispute...just one argumentative, or two acting as one, editor. But, in the interests of consensus, I will start a new section with a poll about your tag. SamDavidson 15:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

'POLL ON KEEPING OR DELTING POV TAG IN LEGACY SECTION

While this issue has been argued and settled previously, it has been raised again by Sarner and Shotwell. Please put your comments here for this poll about keeping or deletingg the POV Tag in the legacy section.

'KEEP POV TAG'

1. _

'DELETE POV TAG'

1. 'Yes' The issue has been discussed and is not a POV issue. The material is relevant since Bowlby's legacy is how his work is being used by variious professionals.
2. _

'OTHER COMMENTS'

1. _