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BLP violations and edit warring by BigDwiki

• BigDwiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jazz Jennings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Despite an 8 year tenure on Misplaced Pages, BigDwiki seems unfamiliar with WP:BLP. This user keeps adding poorly sourced edits to Jazz Jennings to include her deadname, despite WP:BIRTHNAME and past discussion on the article's talk page. The user offers Youtube and voterrecords.com as a source. This is a clear violation of BLP in an area under discretionary sanctions. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:08, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I was in the middle of adding a new section here when this one popped up, so I'll respond here. There appears to be an edit war going on at Jazz Jennings. Despite consensus on the talk page, and plenty of sourced contributions, several editors want to continue to revert edits and claim that they are "vandalism". Youtube is indeed a reliable source. The subject of the article plainly states on his/her own Youtube video that "my legal name is Jaren", and thus it was added as a source and added to the article. There seems to be a steady beat of editors adding the subject's real legal name to the article, and then having it reverted as "vandalism" by activist editors that are dead-set on keeping the subject's real name out of the article.BigDwiki (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

You can also stop templating me... but I'd love to see this supposed consensus on the article's talk page EvergreenFir (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Please describe your logic when you have left me three such templates.BigDwiki (talk) 20:21, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I left 2 warning templates. When I realized you'd been here 8 years, I took it to ANI instead of AIV. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Let's stay focused on the issue at-hand here rather than go off about "who can template who". Warnings get left; people get templated. It's not a big deal... :-) ~Oshwah~ 02:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

If they've stated publicly that their legal name is Jaren, why is that a BLP violation? Natureium (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIVACY, WP:BIRTHNAME. This is not widely published info. I'm sure you're aware of the issues surrounding deadnames with the whole Chelsea Manning naming issue. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

That's just it. It's not a violation. Both the video on the TLC episode page as well as the Youtube video state it. https://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/i-am-jazz/videos/jazz-and-jeanette-at-dmv BigDwiki (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not. Manning's current and former names are both widely known as they were a public figure before and after transitioning. What's the BLP issue? Natureium (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning_naming_dispute. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict x2) I don't know if we have a reliable source for the spelling of that name, but in my view the main content problem here is the surname, which has been discussed multiple times without anyone ever providing a good enough source for it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:25, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

(EC x3) The Misplaced Pages manual of style does state that someone's name should be listed as the name they are famous under, and a name no longer in use should not be stated in the lead unless the subject was famous under it. The person in question was not famous under their birth name. Thus, if included in the article, it should not be in the lead. After looking in the aricle, BigDwiki seems to want it to be in the lead, when, frankly, much like the Laverne Cox article, it does not belong there. Icarosaurvus (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Whether it is in the lead or not is not a concern of mine. As long as it is included in the article.BigDwiki (talk) 20:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

You most certainly do not have consensus for such an edit. And I would object any proposals that include "sources" like that mocking book or non-RS like voterrecords. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

You are free to object, but I find that you are obviously very biased in this transgener/LGBT topic withj your reverts. You've called criticizm "mocking book", yet consider pro-transgender articles as fact. Also, you're convieniently dodging the Youtube and TLC network sources where the subject clearly and undeniably states that his/her legal name is Jaren.BigDwiki (talk) 20:48, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I acknowledge my biases and that this topic is personal to me. Were I an admin, I would still have filed here at ANI because of that "involvement" with the topic. But my reverts don't make me "very biased" and I do not "consider pro-transgender articles as fact". Rather I understand the science behind these topics decently well enough and I am familiar enough with Misplaced Pages's rules and practices in the topic of trans issues. We do not include Laverne Cox's deadname, even though I think you can sources similar to the TLC clip. Why? Because of BLPPRIVACY, BIRTHNAME, and WP:HARM. Too often editors wish to add deadnames to shame or humiliate trans people, but claim it's for "the record" or "readers' information". The person's birthname in these cases adds nothing to the reader's understanding of the subject. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

BigDwiki, from looking at the page, you were edit warring to include their dead name right after the person's preferred moniker. This is generally inadvisable, and goes directly against our style guide. Whether or not it was a concern of yours, your inclusion of it there has become a concern. Further, wikipedia does not care about, as you put it "real names"; We care about the name a person became notable under. Icarosaurvus (talk) 20:43, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

• I've left formal DS alerts on both the BLP and GamerGate cases. If this behaviour continues, I believe it would be topic-ban time. Courcelles (talk) 20:29, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Please elaborate on this "behavior". As far as I see it, adding a properly sourced contribution to an article leads you to the conclusion of "topic ban time"?BigDwiki (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Properly sourced to YouTube? Try indef per CIR. 207.38.146.86 (talk) 00:15, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

That's way too far. YouTube isn't the best source, but banning someone soley over citing what could be a reliable video is a CIR violation in it's self. —JJB 18:13, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• On one level I can understand the issue: the MOS sections on birthnames are inconsistent in their intent, and the one being applied here would appear to violate WP:NOTCENSORED, especially considering who the source of the information is. On the other hand, the politics of the matter are clear, and BigDwiki needs to drop the stick and give up. Mangoe (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• As an aside, I just noticed that reference #12 is indeed a youtube video and it is used in the article and has remained there without objection. "In a Q&A video posted to her YouTube channel in July 2014, Jennings stated that she is pansexual, and that she loves people "for their personality", regardless of their sexual orientation or gender status." BigDwiki (talk) 18:19, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Proposing topic ban

• After reviewing the article, it's talk page, and associated sources, and considering the DS at WP:ARBBLP and BigDwiki's apparent intractability on this issue, I'm proposing a Topic Ban from BLPs, with a duration to be determined. I have full protected the article for avery short time until this issue is resolved. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:19, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support BigDwiki's use of such phrases as "his/her real name" shows a rather dire misunderstanding of wikipedia's policies on such matters, there was a claim of false consensus, and he seems rather hostile towards any who disagree with him. I'd suggest a ban until such time as he has shown significant improvement in these areas. Icarosaurvus (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support as per Icarosaurvus above. 68.42.64.71 (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)— 68.42.64.71 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Oppose He edited a single article, was reverted, and took his concerned to AIV and the talk page which was proper. Banning him considering he has been here for eight years without any blocks or violations is a heavy handed move and smells like oppression because he seems to obviously have views That some people would like to suppress. It looks like the only mistake he made was editing the wrong article where people are extremely heated to begin with. 107.77.253.5 (talk) 02:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is totally out of line. BigDwiki (talk) 02:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'll join the IP-contributor bandwagon. This is an over-reaction right now, and if disruption continues it can be implemented as Discretionary Sanctions. 174.30.113.88 (talk) 02:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is no BLP violation. Sources support the edit and there is no suggestion the subject objects to its presence here or elsewhere. This is an MOS dispute. We don't topic ban for MOS disputes. Close, and take this discussion to the article's talk page. James J. Lambden (talk) 02:56, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

    I think there seems to be some confusion here. The inclusion of the legal first name is a MOS/editorial discretion issue, but the inclusion of the legal surname is a BLP issue—unless better sources can be found, including the surname is a WP:BLPPRIVACY problem. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose (at this time until I read more arguments here), as no previous sanctions or administrative actions have been attempted or imposed against this user before. The issues are very problematic, I'm not disagreeing with that at all. But banning someone should mean that we have tried other methods and actions to correct this behavior and they have not worked, and that a ban is the logical next step necessary to stop the behavior and prevent additional disruption to the project. I think that we should attempt to impose a less-severe action in this situation, and then consider proceeding if the issue continues. ~Oshwah~ 03:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • OpposeWeak support for now. I agree with Oshwah. User was disruptive, but too soon for tban. Tban should be a near last resort imho. Edit: updating vote because of this edit. (14:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)) EvergreenFir (talk) 04:21, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

It's interesting how a provocative suggestion like mine can be a useful tactic to stimulate some comment. That said, EvergreenFir, it begs the question as to what you hoped to gain by bringing the issue to ANI in the first place. It's either a run-of-the-mill content dispute, or a serious BLP/DS issue - what is it to be? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Kudpung: My hope was that an administrator would intervene and stop the disruption should it continue or that the request for such an intervention would stop the disruption, which was the case here. This board is for cases where there's not clear vandalism but there is clear disruption and that administrator intervention may be required. When I filed, it was not clear that the user would stop but it was clear that AIV was not the appropriate forum. My desired outcome was for the disruption to stop and possibly a block if it had continued or a warning if it had stopped. I do not think of topic ban is out of the question especially should the behavior had continued. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:05, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:27, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

There is and was no "disruption". As multiple editors have pointed out here, there isn't even clarity on whether a BLP violation occurred. It is my position that no violation occurred. If a violation occurred, there would not be so many editors saying that there was no violation.BigDwiki (talk) 20:10, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I don’t understand how you think there was no violation. Please read this quote from WP:BIRTHNAME.

In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable prior to coming out.

Also, I would like to know why you are so interested in including Jenning’s birth name. You’ve not actually stated any reasons why you want to include the name, you’ve only stated that her birth name should be included. I feel like you’re just trying to shame her and don’t want to admit it. EMachine03 (talk) 15:30, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is no BLP violation here, just emotionally-charged editors arguing. Natureium (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Perfect summarization of the situation. BigDwiki (talk) 20:10, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

• There's a discussion happening on the article talk page. Why don't we take this and put it there instead of here? GMG 21:01, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support regrettably - BigDwiki is still showing WP:IDHT type behavior on the talk pages, despite multiple explanation as to why his sources will not work in the article, and worse, fail WP:BLP  ►К Ф Ƽ Ħ◄  12:41, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

If you read further down the discussion that you lent to, you will see where another editor has analyzed the same question that I raised, and then analyze your response, and found that there was no violation. There seems to be the same number of people accusing this of being a violation as there are people saying that it is not a violation. BigDwiki (talk) 00:53, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Not even close to being a BLP violation. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:56, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Have we learned nothing from the Manning case? The use of the phrase "his/her real name" appears to indicate an ideological agenda at work. Gamaliel (talk) 01:00, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

By this same logic, which I’m not saying is accurate, how is it not an idiological agenda to promote something along the lines of “her name”? BigDwiki (talk) 03:37, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

The MOS, reflecting tons of discussion, follows in the footsteps of other mainstream outlets in instructing users to use pronouns and names conforming with that person's gender identity. Repeated refusal to do so is disruptive and tendentious. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:30, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

It actually states "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." in addition to the gender-identity section. "His/her" is certainly neutral. BigDwiki (talk) 15:53, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

The sentence you quoted is talking about generic contexts (the next sentence is "For example, avoid the generic he."), not about referring to individual transgender people. For this issue, the relevant section of the MOS is MOS:GENDERID. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:27, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

@BigDwiki: are you seriously suggesting using "his/her" in reference to a trans girl is remotely appropriate? EvergreenFir (talk) 21:37, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I am saying that it is neutral. BigDwiki (talk) 21:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

@BigDwiki: so you think it's appropriate? Shall we use it on all articles then? Or perhaps singular they? EvergreenFir (talk) 06:36, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• support Whether or not one agrees with the MOS on this (I have my issues, as I stated above), the onus at this point would be to achieve a different consensus instead of doggedly defying what we have now. I also see similar issues with other BLP disputes (e.g. at Sandy Stimpson; see diff) where there are problems about inclusion of material. The arguments show a failure to appreciate the matters involved. Mangoe (talk) 21:55, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
• Support - "his/her real name" is unacceptable verbiage, and to claim that it is "neutral" shows a profound lack of understanding. To protect the encyclopedia, a topic ban seems to be a very sensible measure. --bonadea contributions talk 22:14, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - It's hard to take a BLP report seriously when the reporter turns around and opposes a BLP topic ban. Also I can sympathize with the users who don't buy the BLP argument. The content is sourced and not really contentious in terms of accuracy. However that doesn't change the fact that disregarding MOS rules so that you can use a article to "deadname" a trans subject is extremely tendentious and certainly demonstrates a highly warped view of "neutrality". A block is not debatable if this behavior continues, or perhaps a TBAN from LGBT BLPs. I would be inclined to discretionarily implement either of these immediately if issues persist. Swarm ♠ 12:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Swarm: please see my explanation above. I came here because of the incident, not for a topic ban. When considering the proposed topic ban, I know my personal views on this topic may cloud my judgement, so I was airing on the side of caution intentionally. However, to be honest, given the user's responses above I am warming up to the idea of a topic ban. They seem to have no inkling as to why their behavior is problematic. EvergreenFir (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support, particularly given the "his/her name" thing above. That BigDwiki thinks that's "neutral" language shows that they either do not possess the understanding of policy needed to edit in this space, or their own opinions are making them unable to edit appropriately here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

*Oppose a topic ban, but I would have no problem with the outcome being that BigDwiki is given a warning that describing a trans person's birth name as their "real name" is exceptionally offensive, and will incur a block if it happens again, as it would then be a deliberate act (at the moment I'll assume good faith and believe it was done through ignorance, not malice). Fish+Karate 09:02, 3 April 2018 (UTC) Striking out, see amended comment below Fish+Karate 12:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - Gigantic club being wielded in an edit war. Topping banning from that one article would be fine with me as the editing is tendentious. Carrite (talk) 16:00, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. There's something fundamentally preposterous about arguing the BLPPRIVACY prevents us from including a statement not only made by the article subject on national television but reposted to her personal youtube channel, which has more than 400,000 subscribers and whose videos may receive millions of pageviews. Both the subject herself, to some degree, and her parents, without equivocation, describe "Jazz Jennings" as a stage name, a pseudonym, not a legal name; as such many of the arguments here about the MOS are clearly inapplicable. Many of the sources used in the article are plainly no better, and sometimes clearly less reliable, than the sources objected to in this discussion. Too many of the arguments here ignore the particulars for this individual, preferring a generalized view that does not take into account important but inconvenient factors. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 22:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

  Again, as I said above, the BLPPRIVACY issue is not the reliably sourced legal given name, but rather the poorly sourced legal surname, which has not been publicly released by the article's subject, at least not in any source which I am aware of. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose as OTT and premature. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's opinion above matches mine. Jschnur (talk) 00:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - Reading this ANI and some of the sources too has led me to agree with Oshwah. —JJB 18:07, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
• Given BigDwiki has made the BLP-violating edit again () despite this thread, and has rightly been blocked for 24 hours, it is now clear there is either a fundamental lack of understanding of, or a blissful disregard for, consensus, community editing, and WP:BLP, so I've changed my argument to support a topic ban, and probably a lengthier block should the behaviour continue. Fish+Karate 12:20, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • User:Fish and karate, your accusation is false and should be struck or withdrawn entirely. Whether BigDwiki's conduct was appropriate or not (and I believe that one edit in two weeks, which definitively resolved the issue of whether the name in question could be reliably sourced, was appropriately bold editing), there is no reasonable argument that it violated WP:BLP. This dispute has already veered far away from legitimate policy concerns, and blithely making false accusations (by an admin, no less!) only exacerbates a bad situation. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 18:15, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

User:HenSti

• HenSti (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have contacted this editor four times over a number of weeks; they continue to edit but won't reply. Full messages at User talk:HenSti#Sources. HenSti knows how to reply to messages, has been editing for years and knows how to add references, but will not communicate on this issue and hasn't added the references. I have directed them to links showing it is policy to engage in discussion, but to no avail. I am hoping they will engage now. Boleyn (talk) 08:40, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Boleyn - Does the source provided at HMS Enterprise (1705) have what you're looking for? I'm sure you've already looked at it, but I just thought I'd ask just in case :-) ~Oshwah~ 11:34, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

That is presumably their source; I guess my main concern is the refusal to communicate and the creation of several unreferenced articles - do they understand the need to work with other editors and to verify information? I've no idea if they won't talk. Boleyn (talk) 11:37, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree that this is potentially problematic and that collaboration and communication is a key part of contributing to the project and working as a team with others. I'm going to allow others to comment on this discussion so we can figure out the best course of action moving forward that will help this user and benefit the project overall... ~Oshwah~ 12:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, most of the articles in Category:Lists of ship launches don't seem to be well referenced, with lots of them completely unreferenced, (as with many other list-type articles on Misplaced Pages), so its not as if the community is setting a terrifically good example with regard to sourcing of this type of article. This does not excuse the failure to respond to concerns of course.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

List articles are often poor, which is why I linked to WP:SourceList on their talk page, because many editors aren't aware lists should be referenced, and I don't blame them. I was hoping the editor would respond and we could work together, but when it's been pointed out to them and they've ignored it, then it is disruptive. I'll look through the category and see if I can find any sources for the unref ones - so hopefully there will be some better examples out there, although a drop in the ocean. Boleyn (talk) 21:18, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

HenSti, you've continued to edit, you need to join in the discussion here. This discussion is just trying to find a solution to this problem, but you are risking a block by refusing to comment. Boleyn (talk) 18:42, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Normally I name my souces. DNV GL od ABS, ... In the furure i try to be more consequent with this. HenSti (talk) 06:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@HenSti: What does that stand for?--Dlohcierekim (talk) 06:25, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for replying HenSti. If you can agree to respond to messages in future and add sources to your articles, then I see no need to continue the conversation. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 09:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

DNV = Det Norske Veritas, GL = Germanischer Lloyd, ABS = American Bureau of Shipping. Mjroots (talk) 05:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Sources: ABS, DNV GL (classification society) HenSti (talk) 09:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Maswimelleu

• Maswimelleu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Keeps making edits to a rival political party page Pirate Party UK. Some edits were reverted, only to be made again, and reverted. Eventually they gave up as their edits were proven wrong - but they have recently deleted massive amounts of content from the page again. They resurface intermittently, causing a lot of disruption. The page is a shell of what it once was - and is now wildly inconsistent. Drowz0r (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

P.S. I've mentioned the issue on their talk page and they agreed to leave a tag for others to "fix" the page... but then made edits again themselves anyway.

They also flew off the handle about being called "ignorant" and so on. Others have noticed the same issue and posted on their talk page but they continue to do it. Drowz0r (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I'll limit my reply here to a simple rebuttal since this is fairly open/shut:

• I've cleaned up the page because it doesn't conform to Misplaced Pages's quality standards. I invited Drowz0r to make those changes in a manner of his choosing, but he declined to do so, so I did them. I moved the election results to a different page because they violated WP:INDISCRIMINATE in their original form. I also removed irrelevant content concerning minor officers in the party, as they were not notable.
• I have already pushed a number of Pirate party related pages successfully through the articles for deletion process, and repeated mentions of these people in non notable contexts on the Pirate party page have also been deleted. I have thus stripped down the page to mentions that are notable, aren't a conflict of interest, and are backed up by a reliable third party source.
• The page is overwhelmingly reliant on sources that either fleetingly mention the person mentioned, or come from the party itself. Thus there's little way to establish notability of the people or concepts mentioned.
• I have not flown off the handle at any point. Drowz0r has been fairly disrespectful towards me and I have presented him with various options to resolve this issue, he has declined to compromise and disappears for long stretches of time so I continue with constructive edits. The fact that he leaves me insulting messages on my talk pages and then decides not to make any constructive edits to the Pirate Party UK page leaves me to clean it up myself.

I'm not hugely bothered by the page as a whole, but I'm not going to be intimidated from making constructive edits to a page because it's someone's own political party and because they want to set it out in a way that doesn't meet Misplaced Pages's quality standards and is considerably longer and more exhaustive than any other page on a minor UK political party. For an example of what I've been doing elsewhere, look at Mebyon Kernow, which is another minor UK political party page that I cleaned up. I've also created pages on minor parties from scratch, such as Mansfield Independent Forum and Canvey Island Independent Party. These much better suit accepted standards of length and quality, and use third party references that refer directly to the matter at hand. I'm collating a list of all UK political parties which is why I sometimes resurface at Pirate Party UK to clean up the page. I have no particular interest in Pirate politics, Mr Elston, or any other figure involved in the group. Maswimelleu (talk) 07:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

RHaworth and speedies

RHaworth (talk · contribs) is a long-standing admin who has done a lot of work to clear the persistent backlog at CAT:CSD. However, I have witnessed him making mistakes and talking to newbies in a far too intemperate a manner. I know admins don't have to be perfect, and I'm not always the most civil and polite admin on the block, granted, but I think he's going a bit too far. Some recent examples:

• UK railway station openings / reopenings by year (now at Draft:UK railway station openings / reopenings by year) - deleted A10 as a copy of History of rail transport in Great Britain 1995 to date though the list intended to cover the greater scope of all UK stations. See comment from Andy Dingley.

• Green tomato cars - deleted G11, after challenged by the creator, the response was "learn to provide a link when you talk about a page". After I restored the article, RHaworth sent it to AfD and moved it to Green Tomato Cars without a redirect (causing a problem where I inadvertently created the article again while I was copyediting it, requiring a history merge to fix). The AfD does not have an unanimous "delete" consensus, which is a good general arbiter of whether or not a speedy is appropriate.

• Draft:Divya Agarwal - deleted G4, though no previous deletion discussion had taken place. See comment from Chrissymad where she appears to be complaining about RHaworth calling Oshwah a "pedant".

• Draft:Comedian Nazareth - deleted per G13, hence can be restored on request. RHaworth's reply was "Kindly have the decency to wait until someone who a) knows how to create Misplaced Pages articles and b) has no CoI, thinks your client is notable and writes about him here.", also altering an earlier talk page comment of mine in the process (a minor violation of WP:TPO).

These are all in the last week or so, but if you go onto RHaworth's talk page archives, you can see other examples of him being unhelpful. I appreciate that speedy deletion is necessary for the project - heck, I speedy delete plenty of stuff myself, and admins sometimes differ over what is speedyable. However, I sincerely believe if you delete a page created in good faith, you should be in a position to work with that editor, and not make them increasingly frustrated. I don't seem to be the only one with this opinion; as you might imagine, SoWhy has previously said "With all due respect to RHaworth, I would never agree that a speedy deletion was justified just because he thought so." and this notorious boingboing piece which says "I do not have the capability to write an additional 2 million more articles in my lifetime to save the remaining 2 million stubs from deletionists like RHaworth, the hemovanadin killer whose itchy deletion finger was noted by a commenter in my previous article as directly responsible for that editor's abandoning the project." (the context here is an incorrect G12 deletion on Hemovanadin). Okay, strong opinions there that not everyone will agree with, but this isn't just a personal grudge, more an indication that there is a problem.

To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable if RHaworth had given me a thorough dressing down about how I was being overly aggressive and how his admin actions were correct (I wouldn't agree with it but I would understand why he would say it), but I've had next to no feedback. Things have deteriorated to the point where I don't trust any deletion activity he does as being correct and just revert anything that I feel is wrong. This is a bad situation to be in, as it's one stop short of wheel-warring, but as Andy Dingley put it here, "Go and do some training for WMF / WMUK somewhere. Hear the "I wrote something and then it was deleted immediately with no discussion" stories - it's so often the same admin names that come up, over and over again." So I think the community needs to do something.

Any ideas? Ritchie333 18:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Awaiting a response by RHaworth; it's unlikely discussion will be productive before then. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks Ritchie for opening this, although I'm not optimistic about much happening as a result (an admin admit they're wrong?). This is a long-standing issue - although even RHaworth's "unorthodox" user_talk: page archiving strategy makes it impossible to search its history.

Just a month or two back though, we had this one on Category:Bandini vehicles: WikiProject Automobiles §Bandini deletions, Criteria for speedy deletion §G6 on "empty" categories? – another one where an invalid CSD nomination, on a clearly contentious issue, was then implemented as deletion without the slightest check or question. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Further on the "bad press" aspect, we get articles like this: "Watching Misplaced Pages's extinction event from a distance". Boing Boing. 14 February 2017. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

There's another recent complaint at User talk:Feminist#'Murica! Ritchie333 20:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• It has been obvious for very many years to anyone who bothers to look that RHaworth is incompetent to judge speedy deletion. He was one of the two or three admins primarily responsible for my giving up editing with a userid a few years ago. One example among many was his speedy deletion of Cheveley Park Stud and the title's salting in response to my questioning of the deletion. It's about time we did something about long-standing admins who get away with such disruption simply because of their length of tenure. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• He does a LOT of CSD so there is bound to be some who find fault occasionally. Every page subjected to CSD has at least the creator believingbit should remain live. Legacypac (talk) 20:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Try actually looking at his record rather than making such general statements. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Well I'm not an Admin so I can only see so much - but the IP should actually look at my 11 page long record covering only since June 2017 before assuming I don't have a very good idea about every Admin's competence in processing Speedies. Legacypac (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

As stated above, I do lots of speedies myself; however I think the key issue is effective communication and managing people's expectations. It's why I created essays such as User:Ritchie333/Plain and simple guide to copyvios simply because trying to explain WP:G12 (which requires an instant deletion, if valid) to a newbie without them getting the hump is actually quite a difficult task. Ritchie333 21:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) If we're going to let publications such as BoingBoing dictate our policies and (worse) ANI-cases against admins, we're definitely on the wrong track. The two articles cited are prime examples of hit-pieces instead of serious press. If BoingBoing doesn't like Misplaced Pages, I tend to view that as a compliment. As to the matter at hand, I side with Legacypac: you can't make an omelet w/o breaking some eggs, you can't be an admin without stepping on various toes. Kleuske (talk) 21:34, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Have you read the Boing Boing piece? Have you read the technical backstory to the hemovanadin CSD? This was a technical failure in sloppy adminship: a clear and unquestioned copyvio change to an article (previously not a copyvio) was reacted to by deletion, rather than reversion. There's just no excuse for that. The Bandini category was deleted for an invalid CSD reason which just isn't applicable to content categories (it's there for housekeeping of maintenance categories only).

AfD is always a battle between inclusionism vs. deletionism. But this isn't AfD, it's CSD - that should be simpler, there's no judgemental wiggle room for inclusion or not. CSD is there (and only there) for the technical reasons and the unambiguous invalid articles. If someone, even the article creator, can make a policy-valid case that an article might be suitable for inclusion, then the CSD fails and it goes to AfD as a minimum. CSD is just not there for arguing inclusionist / deletionist cases. But these deletions are so often technically broken - outside the policies of valid CSD rules. CSD is not about "speedy" deletion, it's about clear, unarguable and uncontestable deletion. If they're arguable, there are other mechanisms. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• @Andy Dingley: I have read both pieces and both, but especially the first, lack any journalistic decency. Both depend more on insinuations than facts. I have gone through the history of hemovanadin and what I see is Misplaced Pages working as it should. Someone screwed up and it got corrected quickly. I despise all isms and actively dislike people who reduce issues to various isms, since that's a very divisive way dealing with things. If you expect admins to be flawless, you'l be disappointed. No-one (but no-one) on Misplaced Pages is. Kleuske (talk) 22:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• See my comment in the recent SoWhy thread: RHaworth is on the opposite end of the speedy-deletion spectrum as SoWhy. He will delete a lot of things I wouldn't, but at the same time, most of the things he deletes really should be deleted, and having someone to push the envelope in that direction in terms of quality-control isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've brought an article to DYK after he deleted it (Tallinn Central Library (deletion log under a different title.), and I'll admit that his response to me was a bit gruff, but this was also how it stood when he deleted it. I can't rally blame him for that, even if my approach was different.I've noticed a few G12s in the past that I think he should be more careful on (I can't find them now, so this is more of just general feedback than an accusation or diff-able type thing), and I do think that he could be better in his responses to users on his talk page, but at the end of the day, I think he does a lot of good work that is needed. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:44, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

"I do think that he could be better in his responses to users on his talk page" And Donald Trump could be a bit more conciliatory and tactful over what he says in public. Anyway, that's not the real issue here, which is - if I happen to see a deletion from RHaworth that I disagree with (which seems to be about four a week at the moment), is the community okay with me just restoring it and telling him to go jump? I don't think that's a healthy situation to be in. Ritchie333 21:48, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• "most of the things he deletes really should be deleted"

Most isn't good enough. We have policies for a reason, and they're binding on RHaworth too. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:58, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'm sure that the vast majority of RHaworth's CSDs are correct, but on the other hand if you're going to do a lot of CSD, you really do need to get the basics right, and you do need to communicate reasonably with often unhappy users. The first three examples quoted by Ritchie (the A10 of the railway stations, the G11 of the taxi company, and the G4) were all simply wrong. Whilst calling Oshwah a pedant was unnecessary, the G4 doesn't really matter that much because the article was deletable as G11 (although I note the person is probably notable if someone wrote a proper article), but the other two were not. Black Kite (talk) 21:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• "you really do need to get the basics right, and you do need to communicate reasonably with often unhappy users. " Amen to that. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, I can agree with your analysis. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Admins that do a lot of CSD will have the appearance of making more mistakes (believe me, I would know). Relative to other admins, RHaworth has been our most active non-bot admin by an enormous margin since the beginning of 2018. I'm skeptical that RHaworth's ratio of errors to deletes is higher than any other admin. Yes, his communication style could be better, but I'm not seeing any immediate need for sanctions. -FASTILY 22:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I've got a good theory behind that. If you just accept every CSD tag is correct and just hit "delete" indiscriminately regardless of whether it's justified, you can get through a backlog far quicker than if you look at the article and sources, and confirm whether deletion is the correct action. To give you an example, I've just declined two A7s for Nancy Smith (designer) and Monica Rawlins; fixing up the article so it is properly formatted and clearly shows sources (principally to stop somebody else coming along and tagging it them A7 again) took about ten minutes. Hitting the "delete" button on the pair would have taken ten seconds. In that respect, it's no different than the problems I saw at AfC some years back where a few editors "helpfully" cleared the backlog of reviews by declining just about everything. I apologise if it wasn't obvious from the opening statement, but I wasn't particularly looking for sanctions (what form would said sanctions take, for a start?); rather I just wanted an explanation. I certainly haven't got one from his talk page. Ritchie333 22:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Contrary to what many may think, I do have a life outside of Misplaced Pages. Hence the timing of this reply. Yes, Ritchie I think you are being overly aggressive. Apparently I am not allowed to make any mistakes at all. But to look at the examples you quote:

• Green tomato cars. I don't even call this a mistake, simply an example of bold / revert / discuss operating as it should. I found it with a speedy tag, agreed with that tag and made bold to delete it. Ritchie disagreed and reverted my deletion. I initiated an AfD discussion. What's the problem?

• UK railway station openings / reopenings by year. Similar to the above but in this case I have not even bothered to initiate a discussion.

• Draft:Divya Agarwal. A favourite line of mine from Murder in the Cathedral: "the last temptation is the greatest treason: to do the right deed for the wrong reason". Certainly giving an inaccurate deletion reason seems to be a treasonable offence on Misplaced Pages.

• Draft:Comedian Nazareth. The message on my talk page did not explicitly request a restore. Was I expected to restore the work of an obvious CoI merchant voluntrarily? or even advise him of his rights to make such a request?

In short: I defend all my deletions - am I required to be perfect? - if a small fraction of them were "wrong" others have restored them. But Ritchie, feel free to comment if you think I am communicating unreasonably with any unhappy user. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 22:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not impressed by this response at all, and a candidate at RFA would be pilloried for it. For non-admins, a CSD is not the start of a BRD-style discussion, but the end of one. The CSD guidelines also state Administrators should take care not to speedy delete pages or media except in the most obvious cases, which is the opposite of BOLD. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@ RHaworth: I'm not sure you've understood the concern Ritchie333 has raised. It's fine if you make mistakes, we all do. But when other editors ask you for deletion explanations and/or help, could you please make an honest effort to be of assistance? I don't think that's an unreasonable request. -FASTILY 23:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Given the divergence of views on what should be deleted, there will always be disagreements. I tag or delete a lot of CSDs, and not every one of them has been correct. My usual guess is that any experienced person should have a <5% error rate, the best practical human error rate is 1%, and I manage about 2%. Most of my errors are borderline, a few are just stupid. RHaworth and I and most experienced admins almost always agree for speedies--but not quite always. (& I point out that even "most obvious cases" will always have a fuzzy boundary of whether something really is quite that obvious.)

But the real problem here is that it is utter unacceptable to respond "Kindly have the decency to wait until someone who a) knows how to create Misplaced Pages articles and b) has no CoI, thinks your client is notable and writes about him here." , even to people writing blatantly promotional paid biographies. And even worse for autobiographies, it come out as "Kindly have the decency to wait until someone ... thinks you are is notable and writes about you here." (My own wording for that rather common situation is "When you become notable enough that other people write about you in third-party independent reliable sources, then someone will be interested enough to write your biography". The message will be understood equally well.) I cannot imagine ever saying "Kindly have the decency .." on wikipedia even at the peak of frustration, let alone routinely. DGG ( talk ) 05:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Maybe he just played too much Bioshock? Andy Dingley (talk) 20:07, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment--I concur with much of what Ritchie has said.And, my sole experience with him has been pathetic, when post an interesting OTRS conversation, I asked him to refund a non-speediable article, so that it could be AFD'd but he went into a radio-silent-mode and didn't refund it.And, I would appreciate RHaworth, giving us assurances of more-friendly communication.All that being said, I somehat concur with Tony that having sysops at both end of the spectrum is beneficial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winged Blades of Godric (talk • contribs) 06:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Since I am a relatively new administrator and am only 126 on the list of those taking admin actions in 2018 (including bots), I am reluctant to criticize the far more experienced #1 human administrator. But I have to agree with Ritchie333 and DGG, among others. Any good faith editor who comes to your talk page deserves a good faith, informative response, rather than something dismissive. Certainly, there may be disagreement about who is truly acting in good faith, but when there is any doubt, please try to err on the side of kindness and helpfulness, RHaworth. That is the Misplaced Pages way. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:45, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

actually, I extend it even to those who may not be in good faith.I'lll give a full explanation the first time round, assuming good faith. If it becomes evidence other, the way to proceed is to still be polite, but firm. We cannot ask someone directly for their identity, but i do say, that I cannot help further unless I know who you represent. If they do not want to acknowledge the coi, that tends to give a conclusion. In particular, I always ask that of anyone who appeals to me privately off wiki. DGG ( talk ) 08:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Seeing as how RHaworth's user page states "I have a well-justified reputation for blunt speaking on talk pages. But such pages are not a vicar's tea party. I take my standards from parliamentary language - if a Speaker would allow it then I use it" he is unlikely to start communicating in a friendly manner, whether the users are good-faith or not.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:58, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

As I write, I can see five unanswered posts on RHaworth's talk page from editors wondering why their article was deleted - I would say this is a good opportunity for him to show he can take the above advice on board and put this discussion to bed. Ritchie333 13:47, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Got to love the second discussion on his talkpage where he states "I hate it when I leave messages and people completely ignore them". Lugnuts 16:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• Ouch. Looks like RHaworth is at about the point where I usually take a Wikibreak :-( Guy (Help!) 13:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
• Abstractly, there is a pattern on Misplaced Pages where high output contributors come under the microscope, and plenty of evidence is found on which to crucify them. Here in RHaworth, we have the 2nd most prolific admin in terms of deletions in the history of Misplaced Pages. In the 4620 days he has been an administrator, he has deleted things 393340 times, or ~85 a day. Even if he is right 99.9% of the time (highly unlikely) he still has a mistake every other week. We can find plenty of evidence to suggest he's making lots of mistakes in speedy deletions. Contrast; if we had an admin that did 1000 deletions and made only 1 mistake (RHaworth's presumed ratio), we'd congratulate them on a job well done. It should be noted that RHaworth is the 6th most active undeleter, with 7272 undeletions, or about two a day. All this said, I consider it highly important than an administrator be responsive to queries about their actions and to do so in a civil manner. This is ensconced in policy at WP:ADMINACCT. I would much rather see an admin engage in less deletions and rapid, civil responses to queries than to see high volume deletions and slow/uncivil responses. The reason we need administrators with such high volume output is due to declining participation in such things. The answer to that is not more deletions with less proper responses, but more proper responses and less deletions so as not to dissuade future highly active editors, and later administrators. We need to foster the community. We can't do that by deleting everything on sight and then not responding as to why. I'm not suggesting RHaworth is doing this, but rather what we need to avoid. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:46, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
• "I don't even call this a mistake, simply an example of bold / revert / discuss operating as it should." I don't. I call it "Reverting another admin's actions without discussion". Normally, when I see a G11 I disagree with (which isn't often), I'd say something like "hey, I think I can clean this up, do you mind if I restore it?". But with you I see pages of rude or intemperate replies (as other people have mentioned), so I think I'll just get the same if I requested it (as Godric has mentioned), which leads me to not think it's worth the hassle. Ritchie333 17:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• I have found a lot of errors in RHaworth's speedy deletions, and in some cases they clearly delete outside the bounds of what is permitted by the various criteria, see their comment about halfway through this diff. That being said, their error rate is probably about the same as anyone else's, it is just more noticeable given the sheer amount of work they get through. I do wish they'd stick a little closer to the rules though, and that's coming from an unashamed deletionist. Lankiveil 06:04, 10 April 2018 (UTC).
• I think we all need to be careful conflating outright 'errors' with 'my opinion would be different there'. If RHaworth occasionally deletes something that - in a presumably less-reductive view - should not have been deleted because it could have become a 'real' article, then you can ask him to restore it, you can ask another admin to restore it, you can go to WP:RFU, or you can just make the new, better article from scratch, given that the deleted stuff is almost always not of any real encyclopedic value anyway (the topic may be, its treatment at that point was not). It's not like a speedy deletion is a brick wall, and when your article is deleted, even as a new editor, you are clearly pointed towards Misplaced Pages:Why was my article deleted?. Pillorying is not the solution. Fish+Karate 10:14, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

But having a an admin with a very terse attitude IS a problem. I guess WP:BITE doesn't apply to Haworth. Lugnuts 13:28, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Terse!=Bite. Kleuske (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

But, in this case, Bite=Bite. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:27, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

That's your claim. Now back it up. Why this this shitshow still open, BTW? Kleuske (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

From a quick spin through WP:IPHUMAN, "Count yourself lucky I am condescending to talk to an IP address", "I don't talk to IP addresses.", "Consider yourself lucky that I am talking to an IP address. .... I wonder if you will ever learn about wikilinks.", "Count yourself very luck that I am replying: no explanation of why you are having to violate my IP address policy; horrible page widening and no link to the deleted article. I am not surprised that your article triggered what has happened: no lede, no link back to the parent and totally unreferenced.".

As for complaints, "have seen your tone in response to many other contributors, and it is obvious that you think highly of your own assessments, even as other administrators disagree. Many of your responses are rather condescending, to the point of being quite rude and unprofessional.", "lso somebody who is a admin should be more nurturing and less condescending.", "I'm not too thrilled that you choose to start this conversation by hurling insults. That's so clearly against WP principles that I'm astonished that you have any kind of administrative capacity." That's from a quick ten minute search on a few terms. Ritchie333 22:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Out of 18.000+ actions? Not a bad score, considering he's only human. I bet you never make mistakes... Kleuske (talk) 12:22, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Then we have "There was absolutely no need to e-mail me and the matter is not the slightest bit urgent. If you don't know what has happened, I suggest you learn to read edit histories and logs .... ", "Please learn wikilinks and to not use br" (in response to "Thank you very much for your help" after another admin restored an article speedied by RHaworth), "Do you know the difference between an encyclopedia and a social networking site? Go away to FaceBook.", "Talk about helping lame ducks. If you really cannot find out how to submit a draft, you should not be here.", "Please read this ", "Since you have been foolhardy enough to bring yourself to my attention, I will say: so far you have done nearly an hundred edits none of which are actually contributing to the encyclopedia.", "do it yourself! Learn to use the tools the MediaWiki software provides", "The singular of criteria is criterion. A person who has been on Misplaced Pages for 10 years and 3 days ought to know to provide a link when they talk about an article.", ""Not through Google" - what an insult to the MediaWiki software which provides all the clues you need. .... In its original form and as amended above by me there are two links, one red one blue. Did it cross your mind to follow the blue link? Have you thought of looking at your contributions history instead of asking Google?", "Get your facts right.", "Don't be ridiculous. I have already told you to put it at draft:Winning Jah (2). Why is that concept so difficult to understand? Please reply." ..... Ritchie333 13:22, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Nice collection of quotes, but I struggle to find anything really uncivil there. Civility does not imply going along with everything, agreeing with anyone,pleasing everybody and never contradict them or point out the fucking obvious. AGF and CIVIL are not suicide pacts. Kleuske (talk) 10:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

So you think "This article is shit, fuck off" is an appropriate response to a new user's first article? Ritchie333 10:18, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Where does he say that? —SerialNumber54129 10:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

He's never said that exactly (the specific wording I used there comes from Misplaced Pages:WikiSpeak#S), but in my view the wording he did use has the same effect. Ritchie333 10:47, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

But that's really why the thread has got no traction: ~everyone knows that we as a community are—rightly or wrongly—relatively tolerant of brusqueness-to-the-point of incivility, as long as heavy work is being done in the course of it. I also see a lot of people—rightly or wrongly—who don't actually care whether spammers and junkoids do have their pages deleted without a by-your-leave—noobs or not! :D On a lighter note, yes, the Wikispeak page is always worth an outing: doesn't get used enough imho. —SerialNumber54129 11:46, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

"count yourself lucky that I am talking to IP's" and the rest of the diffs are not a 'mistake'. Its called, 'being a massive tool'. A mistake would be 'I did not mean to say/do that'. Not 'I'm going to be completely arrogant and rude in order to deliberately demean you.'. Glad we cleared that up. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:29, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Kleuske:, how many thousand bitey comments do you want to be provided to answer your "now back it up"? Whatever reasonable number you give could certainly be answered from RHaworth's talk page and contribution histories. Try looking for yourself rather than demanding near-impossible feats from others. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:44, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

...and despite this ANI thread being open, and explaining to Seraphim System why Association Montessori Internationale doesn't meet the criteria for A7 (despite RHaworth deleting it), and when consensus is moving towards the recreated version being salvageable, he goes and unilaterally moves it to draft without telling anyone. I've got a sore head now. Ritchie333 21:33, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

From my time at AfC, I think User:RHaworth does a lot of valuable work that is a net benefit to the project. Maybe his talk page responses are a bit curt, but it is also not helpful for admins to take an inherently unrealistic and fantastically optimistic approach to the reality of the backlogs at AfC and NPP. Moving this article to draft space was a sound alternative to deletion in this case - in its current condition sourced only to primary sources it would not have passed AfC anyway.Seraphim System 21:47, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• I substantially agree with User:DGG above. To err is human, to be uncivil is not. Unfortunately, WP:CSDs are ripe for adamant SPI's making life miserable for both taggers and deleting admins. A few quite vocal participants in the community expect a perfect score card and are quick to grab the torches and pitchforks. Alas, in human endeavors, perfection isn't possible. In my experience, speedy deletions that are overturned - all with much ballyhoo and sniping - are often deleted through other means and the tendency toward WP:BUREAU marches along. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Obi2canibe and Misplaced Pages ethics

An experienced user:Obi2canibe is continuing to bully and trouble wikipedians who edit articles related to Sri Lanka for some years now. He first tried to bully and chase away the editors who were interested in Sri Lankan civil war related articles. His behavior directly and indirectly resulted many Sri Lankan wikipedians to vanish from Misplaced Pages (Most of them fear to complain considering his very high article/edit count and the destruction he may caused to their work in Misplaced Pages). Now he has started to trouble even the nicest of Sri Lankan Wikipedians who are not interested to edit Sri Lankan war related articles. A recent comment from an neutral editor is given here (comment i). Could some administrator or a user with special rights look into this matter ? Thanks. RitzAgasti (talk) 08:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

1) I have notified the user; 2) where is your attempt t discuss the issues with the user before coming to ANI?; 3) have you edited under another account before, seeing as your first edits are to ANI?; 4) please provide some links showing examples of the edits you have issues with. GiantSnowman 08:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Many have tried to discuss this with him, but no use (most of them do not edit wikipedia anymore or have reduced the number of contributions). My responsibility is to report this hidden ongoing issue here at ANI and I have given a very recent example of a comment made by a wikipedia admin about it. A recent example for his bahviour is given here . Old example for his behavior is given here (not my self) (many incidents have happened and went unnoticed in between). It is up to the admins to investigate using available tools and take a suitable action or to ignore it as have happened many times before and let him continue on his merry way (easier option is the second one). --RitzAgasti (talk) 09:26, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

RitzAgasti - Umm, no... you have a couple of things incorrect here:

1. The examples you provided here are edits by Obi2canibe that were made in 2009 and 2011 - that's over seven years ago. Aside from that, I don't see any bullying or inappropriate behavior with those edits at all.
2. Your example here, while I agree could perhaps have been worded a bit nicer and to a tone that reads that he's assuming good faith, this discussion seems fine and they seem to be working to correct some incoming link issues... no big deal.
3. You are incorrect with your implications when you state that "it is up to the admins to investigate using available tools and take a suitable action" - it is up to you to provide direct and solid evidence with all of your accusations and statements; so far, you have only given a link to a discussion and three edits made many years back. Your other accusations such as this user causing others to vanish and ongoing bullying and other violations made by this user to other accounts - have come with absolutely no evidence at all. This is not acceptable; accusations are taken seriously here, and making such statements without evidence can be considered uncivil and disruptive, which are grounds for having action taken.
4. You have not answered all of GiantSnowman's questions.

I highly recommend that you resolve the concerns I've expressed or clarify any statements above, as I'm seeing absolutely no weight behind your accusations against Obi2canibe so far... ~Oshwah~ 12:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Hello. While the above post itself is quite shallow and lacks evidence, I would like to weight in on RitzAgasti's claims. I am the founder of Wikimedia Sri Lanka, and an admin here. I have a number of local editors on my watchlist, and RitzAgasti is not wrong. This user has been stealthily taunting a number of editors - mostly those from Sri Lanka. While I do openly agree that Obi2canibe does good work here on Misplaced Pages, I have a number of diffs and permalinks that show extremely disturbing underlying behaviour of this particular user. Most of which did go unnoticed as most users just don't have the time, patience, or knowledge, to go through our escalation processes.

I will not provide any links to the diffs I mentioned yet, as the issue is currently being discussed with other uninvolved admins. Depending on the outcome of those discussions, I will comment here again.

In summary, commenting in my admin capacity: I would have warned and/or blocked this user if the above linked conversation continued. They very clearly have a problem with Sinhalese people, and very clearly is stealthily taunting such editors on wiki. As a person who is in fact doing everything I can to promote contributions from Sri Lanka, it is very clear to me that this user is doing serious harm to the community, and should not be ignored. Rehman 13:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Rehman - That's what I said to myself as well - if the user was being belligerent and uncivil to that high of a level on your user talk page, you certainly would have taken some kind of action. Hence I took it as a conversation where the wording he used wasn't great, but also wasn't something I considered an actionable event. I understand your thoughts and feeling about Obi2canibe, but I need diffs and specific examples before I can agree or begin to make judgment here... Let me know how things go :-) ~Oshwah~ 13:47, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Rehman - just wanted to check in here. Can we move to close this discussion for now, or are there further concerns and diffs that you wish to provide and add to it? Let me know. Cheers - ~Oshwah~ 04:34, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Oshwah. After discussing the issue with another admin, I've decided to post the links here in public. I will do so within the next 24hrs (I'm currently at work). Kind regards, Rehman 06:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Rehman - No rush; just ping me when you do. Cheers - ~Oshwah~ 07:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Apologies for the delay in responding. Below are some diffs and/or permalinks mentioned earlier (dates are approximate).

• 2008-11-12 - Created their userpage by calling Sinhalese people "the forces of evil", sometime after removing facts claiming were misinformation on Misplaced Pages by "Sinhalese nationalists".
• 2013-02-06 - Numerous 'sinhala vs. tamil" conflicts with User:Himesh84. Links on this page branch out to other large convos with other editors. The user disappeared, before/after eventually being blocked due to sockpuppetry following repeated taunting.
• 2015-11-08 - Opposed facts, calling it "Sri Lankan propaganda" and "Sinhalisation of names in Tamil areas". This was my first interaction with this user.
• 2015-12-25 - Refusing to state LTTE terrorist activities as such, and asking the opposing editor to "Leave Misplaced Pages"
• 2016-01-02 - Against Sinhala pronunciation? Note that this is against WP:COMMONNAME.
• 2016-01-03 - When question the above edit, the user accused me of being a "Sinhalised Tamil speaker". I am neither Sinhalese nor Tamil. This is my 2nd bump-in with this user.
• 2016-02-21 - Open-ended/convos that don't stick to the topic like these are quite common. Especially when it seem to involve editors from Sri Lanka.
• 2016-04-17 - This Sri Lankan user's talkpage is flooded by rude warnings, including one which asks him to leave Misplaced Pages. The user has vanished.
• 2016-12-14 - Various attempts to delete the article on this notable Sri Lankan figure.
• 2017-01-07 - Edits such as these are all too common. Note that Sinhala is the primary language of Sri Lanka.
• 2017-01-14 - Dispute on who wrote the Sri Lankan National Anthem.
• 2017-07-30 - Public personal attack on my work at the Wikimedia User Group on Meta.
• 2018-04-08 - Then finally, this incident, which made me take a closer look at this user's history.
• 0000-00-00 - Searching venues such as ANI, using keywords, or having a close look at the user's usertalk and article talk contribs, or any other discussion page for that matter, would definitely bring up more concerning results. Note that I haven't checked other Wikimedia projects.

Again, I want to clearly emphasize that User:Obi2canibe is a dedicated contributor, and I personally admire his work. That being said, his actions against other Sri Lankan contributors is clearly damaging the community, and has a serious domino effect. One new user with a bad experience not only share that experience in RL, but others looking at the offensive talkpage would also multiply that result. If I come across unnecessarily offensive messages (like the Laxapana post on my talkpage) from this user to anyone, I would not hesitate to take the appropriate action.

At the same time, since this discussion is on, I will leave it up to the OP and anyone else involved to decide on what action to take from here on. My best interest is to protect and empower the tiny editor base in Sri Lanka, even if that means blocking Obi2canibe. A topic ban on all Sri Lanka related articles may be something to consider. Rehman 17:17, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Rehman: is clearly involved here and explicitly violating WP:ADMINACCT and WP:INVOLVED with whom he has had content disputes. His threat to ban or block Obi2canibe will be clear violation of this policy.

Further there appears to be a clear case of WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT here.

• On 8th April 2018 Obi2canibe asks him fix Dab and Rehman threatens to ban him
• On 10th April 2018 a sock -RitzAgasti comes out from nowhere solely posts in ANI and directly attacks Obi2canibe quoting Rehman in ANI and does not answer questions about previous account.Then Rehman posts in this discussion through he was not notified.Feel someone should open a sock invetigation against Rehman.Clearly fails WP:DUCK here.

None of the differences show any violation of WP:NPA ,WP:3RR or any major policy.Note Obi2canibe has been around since 2008 just as Rehman.

• There is a content dispute on 2017-01-14 - Dispute on who wrote the Sri Lankan National Anthem. Obi2canibe rightly goes to the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard
• This is content issue over the name which was discussed in the talk page Between Rehman and Obi2canibe both discuss the civily I see nothing wrong from either user
• Obi2canibe nominates to AFD once it is kept nothing wrong there. I couldn't understand why is Rehman saying, 2016-12-14 - Various attempts to delete the article on this notable Sri Lankan figure.
• User:Himesh84 was blocked over 10 times by various admins Here clearly false that he left due to Obi2canibe.Kaytsfan (talk) 19:27, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Kaytsfan: Thanks, you saved me a lot of time in finding evidence to defend myself against some very weak accusations. How on earth did you find out about this discussion?

@RitzAgasti: You are clearly a sockpuppet but whose? Rehman's? Himesh84's? Who are you? Be a man, reveal yourself.

@Rehman: You've spent a lot of time trawling my contributions to find evidence that I'm causing "serious harm to the community" but much of the evidence you've gathered is just content dispute. Disputes are fact of Misplaced Pages. If you go through any user's contributions, particularly one who has been here for as long as me and edits a contentious subject, then you will find that they have been in disputes. Does that justify a blanket topic ban?

I will for now only respond to one of the diffs you've provided, the very first one (2008-11-12). This is from ten years ago (there's no statute of limitation on Misplaced Pages!) and is something I regret. I came to Misplaced Pages for the wrong reasons (to balance my perceived imbalance in Sri Lankan articles) but stayed for the right reasons (to create well sourced articles on a topic that was under represented on Misplaced Pages). I removed the offending content from my user page but as it remained in its history I was advised by an experienced user to delete the page. I did this later. Now you have abused your admin privileges to dig up deleted content. Not cool.--Obi2canibe (talk) 20:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Kaytsfan:, I was not aware of @RitzAgasti: contribution history (i.e. only at ANI). I am more than happy if a sock check is done for the user, if that ensures things go smoothly. That being said, yes I do agree that there is a high chance Ritz is a sock. No new editor drops straight into ANI. Update: Oddly, you too seems to have only recently come out of dormancy and dropped directly into ANI. I've also noticed this edit which is odd, because barnstars are usually posted on the user talkpage. Anyways, I am not interested in digging into this any further. Rehman 04:33, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe:, with all due respect, it is up to you if you decide to only respond to the easiest diffs. Yes I understand the older permalinks, despite being wrong, can no longer be considered relevant. I've been here as long as you, and I have done stupid things as well. Without beating around the bush, if you could clearly accept that you were unfair/wrong in cases like the Laxapana/Channukam/calling people "Sinhalised"/calling edits "Sri Lankan propaganda"/your personal attack on Meta, and can promise not to take that route again, I am willing to step out of this conversation and let you continue with Ritz, who initially started this conversation. Like I said, my best interest is the health of the community, and looking at most of your work, I'm sure it is yours too. Rehman 03:04, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

As the user who has initiated this thread,i must admit that i am neither Himesh84 nor Rehman. Also i have not awarded any barnstars to my own account using socks and this account was created solely to secure my account from posssible negative consequences of reporting mighty obi2canibe who has possibly 5 to 10 accounts with several thousands of useful and useless edits. RitzAgasti (talk) 08:41, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

{reply to|RitzAgasti} "this account was created solely to secure my account from posssible negative consequences" Not sure that counts as a sock puppet, but it seems to. Per the policy: "Sock puppetry takes various forms: Creating new accounts to avoid detection." There are legit reasons to have multiple accounts; the reason you gave doesn't seem to be one of them. So, think carefully before you go casting aspersions else you be hit with boomerang.Sudden Someone (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Rehman: Please note systematic Sinhalisation (article created by @Kanatonian:) is a fact in Sri Lanka and is considered to be the major cause for Sri Lankan Civil War. I don't see anything ulterior why Obi2canibie is objecting when the words are Sinhalised on Wiki articles in Tamil areas.Kaytsfan (talk) 11:10, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@RitzAgasti: Can you identify those socks of Obi2canibie? Kaytsfan (talk) 11:10, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Rehman: You are backtracking. In your earlier comments you stated that I was clearly doing serious harm to the community and deserved a topic ban. If you truly believed this, you would pursue the matter rather than settling for an apology.--Obi2canibe (talk) 21:21, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

User warned multiple times

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Wirrndalek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

He was warned multiple times, but he keeps adding unsourced content to the article Doctor Who (series 11). Titore (talk) 21:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Possible sock puppetry as Special:Contributions/Poleleads. DonQuixote (talk) 21:43, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Sock drawer cleaned, page semi-protected. Courcelles (talk) 22:41, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Etc

Courcelles, you might want to mention on his/her talk page that s/he was indeffed (or is that not necessary to do anymore?). Erpert 19:22, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I’ve never seen the need to do it when blocking obvious ‘disposable‘ socks before. It’s not common practice among CUs, since the template appears if they try and edit anyhow. Courcelles (talk) 19:48, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I never notify blatant sock puppet accounts or LTA's that they're blocked - at that point, it just gives them more of your time and effort that, quite frankly - they don't deserve. ~Oshwah~ 03:55, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Un-sourced content and refusal to present a source

• Slapnut1207 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User Slapnut1207 has been editing tens of articles on Roman emperors but failing to present any reliable source. He did this in the article of Zenobia, where he insisted that he is improving the page by deciding which title she held, even though his edits are contradicted by sources within the article (which is featured).

Diff: 1, 2...etc

I asked him not to insert inaccurate information on his talk page User talk:Slapnut1207#Palmyrene empire and I asked him to participate in a discussion on the article's talk page. He reverted and only after I told him that this will be reported did he reply in the talk page... then reverted me again telling me that he did the talke page!.. this time he added a source that does not support his edits as he wants to call Zenobia either Empress of Rome or Empress of Palmyra and his source did not contain an evidence for both!.

I believe this is not a content dispute as he have no reliable sources to back his edits. Hope this can be stopped.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 02:05, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

P.S, I just breached the 3 revert rule. Sorry about this, didnt notice how many reverts I did. I wont go into an edit war with this user but inserting inaccurate info should be stopped if Misplaced Pages will be considered reliable.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 02:20, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

You might want to open a thread at WP:RSN. Erpert 17:49, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism on Inna

Hi there! Recently, User:INNAjm keeps vandalizing Inna by making the picture in the article's infobox very big and changing the singer's name from "Inna" to "INNA". Some of his edit summaries include: "you, please stop vandalism", "wikipedia fo all users, this article or all articles for all users, and watch, small size pic" and "happy cartoon network freaky". He/She even sent me a message, clarifying that "you're monopoly style is bad, INNA Article MONOPOLY for Cartoon network freak, what this". Can someone help? Many thanks! Cartoon network freak (talk) 04:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I have warned both parties here, Cartoon network freak, next time remember to avoid WP:3RR and bring the attention to the talk page of the article in question. Engaging in this type of behavior is unnecessary, and it does not look good on your end when you fail to communicate with the other party in question to resolve the issue. Also, when you bring an issue at AN/I, you must notify the other party(ies) involved in this case so they can defend themselves. Best – jona ✉ 14:57, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE sock

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Hazratleri, per his edit summary is WP:NOTHERE, and he is also engaging in sock puppetry per checkuser results at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Hazratleri. Should some admin already block these confirmed socks? Raymond3023 (talk) 05:10, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

If they were really confirmed then they would be blocked. What I read from what is written is that they are likely related which would mean that some behavioral evaluation is needed. What I see when I run a check is: three editors, three different countries with two on proxies. Two of the UAs match as it is a common UA, one on a proxy, one not. So it should be decided based on behavior.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I have struck confirmed because likely is the result. But there is nothing to left to wait for given its a case of WP:DUCK, and the accounts are used only for edit warring on Hookah for restoring a particular version. He is also engaging in massive canvassing, and still edit warring. He is here for ethnicity-related POV pushing (WP:NOTHERE), should be blocked already with other two accounts and there should be no unblock without a topic ban. Raymond3023 (talk) 06:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Northernelk888

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I have sent this editor five messages, in Jan, Feb and March - no response to any of it, but they do know how to respond to talk page messages and have done so to others. I was contacting them about creating unreferenced articles. I have pointed them towards WP:V, WP:BURDEN and WP:Communication is required, but can't get them to discuss the issue or address it. Boleyn (talk) 07:14, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Northernelk888 should certainly respond to your comments on their talk page, however, I'd like to note this is the third or fourth AN/I report you've filed recently about other editors not responding to you. Do you think there's some reason for that (not for the reports, for other editors to not respond to you)? Your comments on Northernelk888's page seems straight-forward and polite, so I assume the same was true of the messages you left for other editors. Any idea what the common thread might be? Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:16, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, I message dozens of editors when I see a pattern of creating unreferenced articles as part of New Page Patrolling - most do respond, but these are often editors who struggle with English/do not feel they need to add references/do not read messages at all and so there is no way to communicate with them. \luckily the majority are happy to resolve the issue or ask for and accept help - hopefully Northernelk888 will too as part of this discussion. Boleyn (talk) 16:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Boleyn, I don't see anything in the messages you've left him that requires his response to you or requires any action on his part. All you have done is suggest ways to improve a couple articles. There is nothing in the messages indicating why he needs to improve the articles; nothing indicating anything will happen if he doesn't; in short, nothing requiring either an action or a response. John from Idegon (talk) 18:40, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

John from Idegon, my first message at User talk:Northernelk888#Ways to improve List of heads of state of Croatia by longevity says 'Please add your sources.' My second message at User talk:Northernelk888#List of Members of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina by time in office also says 'Please add your sources.' Both were more than 2 months ago. My fourth message at User talk:Northernelk888#Sources and communication, a little later, pointed out that WP:Communication is required, with a link to the essay. It also pointed out the importance of WP:V and asked for the editor to reply to the first two messages. The fourth message, two weeks after that, pointed out that by not responding they were risking a block. A whole month after that, I left another message saying that this could lead to an WP:ANI and a block. I then waited a couple of weeks after that to actually initiate an ANI. This editor was editing in between all these messages, but not responding. The links to WP:V and WP:BURDEN indicates why he needs to improve the articles; the two mentions of WP:ANI and a potential block indicate what could happen if he doesn't; asking for a response and asking 'Please add your sources' clearly require an action or a response, especially with links to WP:Communication is required. Boleyn (talk) 18:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Boleyn, you are confusing content guidelines with behavioral guidelines. NorthernElk has no obligation to do anything to any article simply because you say so. Your recourses if he doesn't are to either tag (which you have done), fix (which you could do), or nominate the article for deletion (which likely wouldn't fly). Just like you no longer have any right to control the content you add once you add it (see WP:OWN), outside of obvious behavioral issues such as libel and copyvio, you also have no obligation to do anything whatsoever to it. NorthernElk does not work for you or answer to you in any way. Your threat, not even a veiled one, that he could be blocked for his inaction is both incorrect and a behavioral issue on your part. Now if he has a pattern of doing this, a much longer one than you've shown, that may be a WP:IDHT or WP:CIR issue, but you have not shown or even claimed that. If he edit warred over content changes, that is a behavioral issue. WP:Communication is required is a very useful essay, written by Dennis Brown, one of our most trusted administrators, but I doubt he ever intended it to be used as you are using it here. It is an essay. It isn't policy. All you did in your communication with him is point out some content issues. He isn't obligated to fix them, nor is he required to talk to you about it. Now if you had reverted some of the unreferenced content in the lists and he put that back and didn't communicate, then "communication is required". Pardon my bluntness, but you are not required to reply simply because I communicate with you. I am not required to answer simply because you communicate with me. Dennis is not required to answer the ping I left him, and neither is BMK (whom I am hoping will inform us if the ANI reports he alluded to earlier in this thread indicate a pattern of behavior on your part, Boleyn). IMO, you need to get over yourself. John from Idegon (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, insofar as Boleyn has started similar threads recently about other users, it's a pattern, but since I haven't looked into any of those situations, I can't say that it's necessarily a problematic pattern. I do you think your explanation, although (as you say yourself) blunt, is correct, and I would urge Boleyn to take it into account before he posts another similar, thread here.Boleyn, I know from experience that a lack of response from an editor you're trying to communicate with can be very frustrating, but, as John from Idegon says, unless you've warned them about some violation of policy or editing norms, and they don't respond to that and keep doing it, it's really not an issue for this board, or for admin action. I least, that's my estimation of it. I'd also agree with the advice that you might try to provide the needed sourcing occassionally, under the guideline WP:SOFIXIT - but with your editing history, I'm sure you must have done so at times. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

That's certainly not been Swarm's assessment on similar threads, where they pointed out that communicating is policy, and this editor is refusing to communicate, not per the essay WP:COMMUNICATE but by the policies WP:CONDUCT 'The first step to resolving any dispute is to talk to those who disagree with you. If that fails, there are more structured forms of discussion available.' AND wp:dispute: 'Respond to all disputes or grievances, in the first instance, by approaching the editor or editors concerned and explaining which of their edits you object to and why you object...Talking to other parties is not a mere formality, but an integral part of writing the encyclopedia. Discussing heatedly or poorly – or not at all – will make other editors less sympathetic to your position, and prevent you from effectively using later stages in dispute resolution. Sustained discussion between the parties, even if not immediately successful, demonstrates your good faith and shows you are trying to reach a consensus.' They don't have an obligation to do anything to an article - but they are required to communicate. I wouldn't nominate an article for deletion because it was neglected, and I cannot fix every unreferenced or poor article that comes into NPP - I can however, contact editors, make sure they understand how to source and work with them. Boleyn (talk) 06:46, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• Communication is required as a matter of policy, and refusal to respond to input or to cite sources is considered disruptive editing. The entire new page patrol process is pointless if article creators are allowed to just ignore WP:V. Blocked indef, Boleyn. Swarm ♠ 08:21, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Pattern of disruptive page moves

There have been several requests at WP:RM today to revert new undiscussed page moves performed by User:Gryffindor. Because of this, I have looked further into Gryffindor’s recent edit history, and documented some of what I found at WP:RMTR. There is also evidence of a large number of objections that have been lodged at User talk:Gryffindor; the pattern of editing has continued unabated. Since the start of the year, User:Gryffindor has engaged in the following sorts of behavior related to page moves:

• 1) Undiscussed moves when the title had been established by a previous Misplaced Pages:Requested moves discussion, such as seen at Talk:Sobieski family from 2014 followed by this.
• 2) Edits specifically designed to prevent reversion of undiscussed moves, such as the repeated removal of the R-from-move template. An example is here. Here is another. Note that there are no edit summaries for the empty edits. This appears to be part of a long-term pattern of performing such empty edits after page moves.
• 3) Note that the move itself shown in example 2 would not normally be out of process as a bold move, but the editor has previously taken part in significant discussions on "House of X" articles and knows that this sort of edit represents a controversial move that should be discussed through WP:RM, as shown in the instructions at WP:RMCM. In fact, administrator User:PBS specifically warned User:Gryffindor against both 2 and 3 in 2017, as can be seen here.
• 4) Re-moving articles after the original bold moves have been reverted, such as here and here (the last of these is from December 2017). The second move sometimes happens much later and is not immediately caught by the editors who objected the first time, so it seems that some of these moves have been successful. For example, the article that was at House of Arenberg from its creation in 2007 to 2017 now remains at Arenberg family with no evidence of move discussions as of April 10:

• 11:41, September 17, 2017‎ Gryffindor (Gryffindor moved page House of Arenberg to Arenberg family over redirect: non-sovereign family, restore encyclopedic naming format)
• 09:21, August 24, 2017‎ PBS (PBS moved page Arenberg family to House of Arenberg: revert contriversial move)
• 08:22, August 24, 2017‎ Gryffindor (Gryffindor moved page House of Arenberg to Arenberg family over redirect: non-sovereign family)
• 03:27, March 11, 2017‎ PBS (PBS moved page Arenberg family to House of Arenberg over redirect: rv contriversial move not following the WP:RM)
• 10:38, March 9, 2017‎ Domdeparis (Domdeparis moved page House of Arenberg to Arenberg family: In English "House of" is reserved for Royal dynasties see House of)

Each of these four actions is strongly deprecated and would normally garner some sort of a warning for the editor who engaged in them. Today, it seems that the moves continued after posts by User:Bermicourt objecting to them; see User talk:Gryffindor#Moving "House of Foo" to "Foo family" and User talk:Gryffindor#Please stop moving "House of" articles without a discussion and consensus!. Gryffindor also edited later in the day, but did not respond to these concerns.

It would be inaccurate to state that this is the first time such problems have arisen surrounding moves by Gryffindor. Being as charitable as possible, there are previous ANI discussions of Gryffindor's unilateral moves from at least 2007, 2010, and 2012. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive254#Gryffindor out of control (apologies for the section name), Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive648#Unilateral page moving against consensus, and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive771#A possible problem with undiscussed moves. There are others I’ve chosen not to include here. Given those discussions and the talk page, it’s clear that Gryffindor knows these moves are out of process and has a long-term tendency to proceed anyway.

I have nothing against User:Gryffindor, do not have an opinion about the titling of the "House of X" articles, and have had few interactions with Gryffindor in the past. I also attempt to avoid drama. But this needs to be handled somehow, is creating more work and stress for many editors, and I am under the impression that previous complaints have resulted in no action because Gryffindor either temporarily avoided this sort of behavior or did not respond to questions about it. I therefore think it is appropriate that there be a discussion here to gauge community consensus on how to prevent the sort of disruption I have documented here from continuing to happen in the future, up to and including placing limits on the ability of Gryffindor to perform undiscussed moves. Dekimasuよ! 08:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

The WP:RMTR thread is reproduced below:

Dekimasuよ! 08:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• I think the answer to this is fairly simple. All of the "House of..." moves should be reverted, and Gryffindor warned to only go through the RM process to move these, otherwise sanctions may be applied. Note: not all of Gryffindor's moves appear to be wrong; the "X (noble family)" -> "X family" ones appear to be logical. Also colour me seriously unimpressed that Gryffindor is an admin who has previously appeared at ANI for doing exactly the same thing over other's objections. Black Kite (talk) 08:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• (EC) I do not mean to imply that all (or any) of the moves is wrong aside from being deliberately out of process. However, as mentioned above, Gryffindor has been warned in the past on this specific point, and has continued: see , and elsewhere on the talk page, so I believe that at a minimum the conditions for and scope of any sanctions should be made explicit. Dekimasuよ! 09:14, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Seems that repeated warnings over a very long time have been pretty ineffective. How about a ban on any page-move-related edit or admin action? Ivanvector (/_Edits) 17:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• This certainly looks like a deja vu. I remmeber I had to warn Gryffindor off for exactly the same kind of misconduct (using admin tools for controversial moves against consensus, plus using the dirty trick of redirect-scorching) back in 2007; see here and here. I never crossed path with him since, but if he has continued the same pattern over all these years, that's pretty bad. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Gryffindor has replied to the WP:RMTR thread here, and I responded here. Another editor since asked that discussion not continue at WP:RMTR, so I have removed the thread. In the reply, Gryffindor wrote that "I think you are confusing edits from an editor that you disagree with, and activities as a sysop. See this editing guideline WP:BB for further information. Concerning the discussion you mentioned earlier on "House of X", feel free to comment in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Royalty_and_Nobility#House_of." This misinterprets my objections to the moves; I responded with "If this is directed at me, please rest assured that I do not particularly disagree with the edits themselves (I have no opinion on the titling of these articles) and I am not primarily concerned with whether or not these are admin activities. The moves would be problematic whether performed by an admin or not, because they are being performed without discussion despite being known to be disputed by other editors." To expand upon this, the reply shows that Gryffindor is aware of ongoing disagreement with respect to the titles of these pages, but is pursuing the moves as "being bold." This is already advised against by WP:RMCM; at the same time, Gryffindor been short-circuiting the WP:BRD process that is necessary for the proper application of WP:BB by preventing reversion and repeating the "bold" moves after reversion without engaging in WP:RM discussion. Gryffindor has also posted new replies to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility#House of stating editorial reasons for the moves, but has not there touched upon any rationale for the process by which they have been carried out. Dekimasuよ! 00:01, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Vote of no confidence in Gryffindor as an admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gryffindor (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) was promoted in 2006 and apart from a couple of block actions in 2006, has used his administrator rights primarily in the service of his campaign of undiscussed moves, usually deleting pages to make way for these moves. As evidenced above, many all of these moves have ended up being reverted over the years or have had concerns raised that have gone unanswered. WP:Communication is required, and this user has not answered direct messages on his talk page, has not responded here, and ignored discussions on other pages that he was surely notified of that were concerned about his moves. Its my opinion that his abilities as an admin will only lead to further conflicts with very little benefit to the project. I suspect that his ability to delete pages to perform moves gives him the impression that he can do so without following the consensus process. Removing that ability will surely force him to begin interacting with the project again. Failure to do this will likely result in him going silent for some time, and then returning again to the same pattern. -- Netoholic @ 17:50, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• It's a bit early for this. Page moves against consensus are only kind of abuse of tools, and they are tools that we also give to non-admins. Also, this thread has been open less than 24 hours and Gryffindor should be given a reasonable chance to respond. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 17:51, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Gryffindor has actually used admin tools to move some of the pages, as in some cases the targets were not simply redirects. I can't see an example where's he's edit-warred over one of those, though, and he hasn't used the tools since concerns were raised on his talkpage (although he has carried on moving pages and not replied to the concerns). Black Kite (talk) 19:56, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Having said that, Gryffindor hasn't used admin tools at all apart from in page moves for a very long time. He hasn't blocked anyone since 2006 and has only made one protection that wasn't page-move related since 2007 as well. Black Kite (talk) 22:27, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• That's my point - he became an admin in 2006, has used his admin rights for almost NO tangible benefit to the project, and in fact only uses them in pursuit of his undiscussed page moves. We have to weigh the costs and benefits here - This user would probably not even be able to retain "page mover" rights based on his actions (WP:PMRR), so why are we letting him keep the keys to the kingdom? --Netoholic @ 02:27, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• ArbCom is the only body that can desysop. I'd also be hesitant to see a case request here. I'm also probably more cautious on moves than most (since I work the RM desk semi-regularly), and I don't see this as needing the committee. I'd suggest just a community reminder to use the RM process. If they kept not using it, then we'd have an issue. While the community can issue sanctions against administrators short of a desysop, it would likely result in an inevitable ArbCom case (high-profile disputes amongst administrators being within ArbCom's explicit remit), and I don't see this at that level yet. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:57, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • After seeing this has come up in the past and the lack of response here, it appears a case may be necessary. @Gryffindor: if I may be so bold as to suggest that it might just make sense to take a trip over to WP:BN, link to this discussion, and say you resign and won't seek resysop without an RfA? That would save the community a fair amount of drama and time. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:34, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) What Tony said. See also: WP:DESYSOP. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 18:01, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
• I agree with Ivanvector; I'm not opposed to this procedurally as it would simply lead to an ARBCOM case. A TBAN on moving pages other than through the RM process might be a better idea if action is necessary. Regardless, more discussion (and an opportunity for Gryffindor to respond) is necessary. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:06, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

* Oppose desysop as I don't think we're at that level ... they're not exactly communicative which is an issue however they've not exactly abused their tools, However I would support a topic ban from all page moves - If they want an article moved they know where to go. –Davey2010 18:14, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support Arbcom - My apologies I thought this was a one off but apparently not - All admins should know move-warring isn't on and they should obviously discuss instead of reverting/moving, Their response below is pretty bad .... I would support taking this to Arbcom or the appropriate venue. –Davey2010 17:03, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'm not familiar with Gryffindor's other contributions and cannot offer much of an opinion on whether his admin credentials should be revoked. I'm sure he's done fine work elsewhere, which makes the nitpicky and easily fixed nature of this complaint all the more frustrating. I do believe that Gryffindor should immediately stop making any moves, should not make moves on Wikimedia Commons, and if he refuses, should have his admin (and page-mover) credentials revoked for this reason. It's a silly and minor thing, but his persistent refusal to engage in the WP:RM process and flagrant "gaming the system" by poisoning the resulting redirect so his moves can't easily be reverted does not speak to a spirit of collaboration. He has an opinion on article titling, that's great, file a requested move like anyone else and don't use technical tricks to force the impetus on others to clean up his mess. Even when he has been reverted, it's unreliable anyway, because he's repeatedly moved the same article before, and simply waits a year to see if people have stopped paying attention. This is conduct unbecoming of any editor, admin or not. SnowFire (talk) 22:11, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Upgrade to Support removal of admin privileges. Gryffindor's responses, both here and in the thread at the Royalty Wikiproject, show he is wholly oblivious to the concerns being raised here. If he can't be bothered to address legitimate concerns about communication and moving style, acting as if this is only a content dispute where he imperiously sets the article titling rules himself, then I have no confidence in him as an admin. SnowFire (talk) 17:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• I know ARBCOM is the only venue that can desysop, but I support it. We have far too much of a gap between standards of new admins and old admins, and I think both reducing new admin standard and increase current admin standard (which'll help with the former) is the way to go. His behaviour is far below of that you'd expect from any admin, and has extended over years. Consistent poor judgement (move-warring etc), and repeated failure to communicate and respond to concerns per WP:ADMINACCT is what I'd say as the rationale. If he was a page mover, he'd have been stripped of the right for even a very small fraction of the moves like the ones he does. I think probably the only reason there isn't a problem elsewhere is because he doesn't use his tools much outside of perhaps deleting pages in page moves (his deletion log of <1000 entries is 90% related to page moves) Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:25, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• I support a vote of no confidence. Communication is required, especially from admins. It's also baffling that they have not responded here, despite continuing to edit after they were alerted to this discussion. @Gryffindor: please let us have your views on the comments here. If Gryffindor continues to ignore the discussion on this board, we may want to consider moving it to WP:RFAR, the venue that can desysop. Bishonen | talk 14:54, 12 April 2018 (UTC).
• I also support this, since Gryffindor has clearly felt it beneath him to respond here, despite having edited since. That's seriously sub-par for an admin. Black Kite (talk) 15:03, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment has anyone actually checked to see if the sources in the pages that Gryffindor has moved support the article name house of? I'll give you one exemple House of Soterius von Sachsenheim I checked out the sources and not a single one of them uses "house of". The main opposition to the blanket moves of non ruling families from House of to family was because that went against WP:COMMONNAME. this does not need any kind of concensus if the sources support that the common name is not House of. Common name states "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." There are several authorative source that points towards House of being commonly used for ruling dynasties notably a royal one an important family, especially a royal one House of is used for an individual royal house, that is, a ruling family of a monarchy these 2 sources suggest that at least for the Cambridge dictionry and the Library of Congress calling a noble family that wasn't a royal family could be considered ambiguous. If there are few or no sources that use this term I cannot see how these page moves are in any way contradictory to Common name. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:18, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'm sure many of his moves are correct (and for example, House_of_Schwarzburg has sources calling it exactly that). But whether his moves are right or not is irrelevant here. The point is that if you're making mass BOLD moves and other people are disputing them, you need a consensus - via RM or talkpage - to make that move stick. For the examples where Gryffindor is correct, then a Requested Move should be no problem. Given that similar problems stretch back over ten years as pointed out above, there is clearly an issue here. Black Kite (talk) 15:34, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• If you are talking about Heraldica.org this is a hobby blog written by an economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago and not a recognised authority on the subject I believe. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:49, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• And what are the arguments opposing the moves? No one has suggested that the moves go against policy because the policy that should be considered is WP:COMMONNAME and I don't believe that this has been brought up when addressing the different articles. If there are no sources attesting to this article title does one have to go through RM? Dom from Paris (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• (ECx2) To concur with Black Kite, I'll reiterate that this is a question of conduct rather than content, and the current discussion does not preclude the moves (which Domdeparis has previously stated his support of) from taking place. I also note that Misplaced Pages:Article titles makes frequent reference to the importance of consensus in determining titles, including in the sections labeled WP:CRITERIA, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:TITLECHANGES. There is no need to be discussing individual sources here. The question you raised last–"what are the arguments opposing the moves?"–is what is to be discussed in a move request before moving the pages again. Dekimasuよ! 15:56, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• • Comment @Domdeparis: I'm afraid the situation has moved on from the pagemoves themselves; what's happening at the moment is very much in the realm of WP:ADMINACCT. Specifically, their lack (total) of communication. Incidentally, if anyone thinks this is a one-off, I draw your attention to this discusion on G's own talkpage—from August last year—about exactly the same issue, and in which—again—they did not take part, even with a colleague. They were still doing the same thing in November—and again ignored the request to slow down and discuss. Communication is probably the fundamental requirement of an admin—per WP:VOLUNTEER, they can do as much or as little anywher here they choose: but no-one gets a free pass on ignoring the concerns of the community. Regarding the content dispute itself, incidentally, as someone pointed out above, an editor disagreeing with a move is an indication that is likely to be contentious: per WP:RM/CM: if someone could reasonably disagree with the move, then the discussion process is used for potentially controversial moves. Again, this is something that an admin of their tenure should be fully conversant of, especially in regard to the fact that it is such a significant portion of their editing. Which is another illustration of the same behaviour: that of ignoring concerns and refusing discussion. —SerialNumber54129 15:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Comment when there are no sources that attest to the article title being as it could one really be called reasonable when opposing the move? Dom from Paris (talk) 16:05, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

AN/I not the place to discuss content, unfortunately. —SerialNumber54129 16:42, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• I have responded in Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Technical requests and also Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility. I will also comment here in this section if this is required. Gryffindor (talk) 16:08, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Gryffindor: I'd like to know why it took you so long to respond here? Paul August ☎ 16:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Support a vote of no confidence. To be honest, I have had little confidence in Gryffindor as an admin since October 2014 when this CCI was opened (how many other admins do we have with an open CCI?). The undiscussed moves appear to have been happening for many years (this one in 2010 was made after a (very mild) objection on his/her talk-page). Page moves can be made without discussion if, and only if, they are uncontroversial or could reasonably be believed to be so. Boldly moving a page is OK, but making moves without discussion after you've been made aware that others are opposed to them is a misuse of the function; if often repeated, it is at best WP:DISRUPTIVE. It is absolutely not acceptable behaviour for an admin. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support the OP's vote, and the resultant move to RFAR. I was, per my remark above, probably just going to comment; but Paul August's question made we wonder. The communication problem, it appears, is actually far worse than it appeared. Notwithstanding Wellington et al.'s advice, the figures are not good. For example, Gryffindor has made 102 edits to own talk page since 2005 (half of which are just archivings)—and has not replied to anyone since July last year. Likewise, off their own page, the list of their last fifty edits to others' talk pages also takes us back nine months. This is poor communication from anyone, but particularly from an editor in possession of advanced permissions who has been granted those permissions by the community on the expectation that they will be accountable to the community. So, I am forced to support this measure. —SerialNumber54129 17:09, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

  @User:Serial Number 54129 Just because an editor does not comment on their talk page does not mean that they are not communicating. Gryffindor replies in the same style that I do. On the talk page of the person who comments on my talk page page. see here). If you look at last August (2017) you will see the exchange between Gryffindor and myself which I edited into the start of Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility#House of showing it as a split conversation -- PBS (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, PBS, I know (to clarify: Yes, I agree). The problem, as I see it, is that G. doesn't—on his or others' talk pages. —SerialNumber54129 18:57, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• I also support a vote of no confidence from reviewing the above and strongly suggest an Abcom case to deal with this matter. Jusdafax (talk) 17:14, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I have no opinion on Gryffindor as an admin as Gryffindor has not blatantly used admin tools in his/her move wars. If for example Gryffindor had used admin tools rather than a second edit to lock page moves then I would voice an opinion. However I think that theses most recent moves, given the history of this issue, coupled with the additional evidence of the contributor copyright investigation shows a lack of judgement. @user:Moonriddengirl and user:Wizardman has Gryffindor carried out a "proper re-edit on them" (17 October 2014) that Gryffindor stated (s)he would do to fix the copyright issues? -- PBS (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Topic ban from moves

Proposing an indefinite topic ban on moving pages

• Support I don't see how a "community reminder" will help where numerous complaints from experienced editors haven't - he still hasn't acknowledged any issue. Per his response here, he still doesn't seem to understand that his moves are disruptive, and WP:BOLD isn't applicable to potentially controversial page moves nor is it a justification to repeatedly move-war etc etc. Nor is it a justification for editing the redirect to make reverting back impossible except for admins and page movers.

Indefinite, because this has been an issue for 10 years per threads linked by Future Perfect at Sunrise (see this and this links provided, and the ANI from 2007 linked above), and I think he needs to come and appeal with an explanation of his understanding of when to use the RM process and how he'll do better. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:23, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support per my comments above. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 11:01, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support per my comments above. Black Kite (talk) 15:04, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Minimal necessity. ~ Winged Blades 15:11, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• I don't agree. Moving articles of a category to an established format makes sense so that there is order. However if this is seen as disruptive by a majority of users involved, then I will desist obviously, as I have done so in the past. I have received many thanks from other users for taking the initiative and moving articles. And there are cases where this can be met with criticism, that is true as well. Gryffindor (talk) 16:11, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are responding with in talking about categories. What I and people want to minimally know is: do you understand WP:RMCM, specifically that any any controversial or potentially controversial move should be taken to WP:RM? In this specific case you'd nominate the pages en masse, and if the consensus is there, the moves will be done in a week or two. As far as I can see, your desistment doesn't seem to last, considering the recurrence of these ANI threads, and of move-warring. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:37, 12 April 2018 (UTC) Striking that first bit, see you are talking about WP:CONSISTENCY within a category - which is an argument to make in a WP:RM, but not a reason to unilaterally mass move pages Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:22, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that Misplaced Pages works by WP:CONSENSUS, not one person's "system" so that "there is order." You're not the boss, your comment on the Royalty talk page was just that - a comment, not an actual statement of Misplaced Pages policy. Which means cleaning up your own mess and reverting your undiscussed moves yourself rather than making others do it for you. You can achieve all of what you are currently doing if you simply file Requested Moves at a reasonable (not breakneck) pace. Where you have a point, people will support your move and it'll be moved; where you can't find consensus, it won't be. The end. Everyone will be happy. SnowFire (talk) 17:19, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I came very close to blocking this user myself for disruptive editing, as I consider reversion of a major change to the notability policy that took place without discussion to be administrative in nature, but I thought I'd take it here to get more admins to look at it. Just looking through their last contributions, they have been through at least four major policy and guideline pages messing with the wording (if you look through their contributions WP:N, WP:ADMIN, WP:DEL, and Misplaced Pages:Bot policy all show copyedits that were reverted in the last 3 days). I reverted them on WP:N and warned them that further "copyedits" to major policy documents could lead to a block.

Following that, they reverted me claiming it wasn't disruptive and that I wasn't assuming good faith, and then started a section on the talk page claiming that they weren't going to edit war, after the had already been reverted and warned by another user not to make the edit (which on a significant document such as WP:N, certainly goes against the intent of the edit warring policy).

As I said, I think I'd be justified in a block and view my initial revert as administrative in nature, so thus not INVOLVED, but since it did involve content changes to a policy, I would prefer to get feedback here or let another administrator review. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:49, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Resolved – no admin action seems warranted here. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:58, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Already mentioned above, WP:WRONGVERSION is clearly what has happened here... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 11:21, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Extended content

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Editor just contested a prod for a song that clearly fails any notability criteria, and created an article for another. Time to permanently stop the editor. He's wasting the project's time and not adding sufficient value to it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

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