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Poor English, unreliable sources, "Pakistan victory"?

The quality of this article seems to have degraded significantly. It cites Indian casualties with some Pakistani nationalist site "pakdef.info" while Pakistani casualties are cited to some non-existent site (the link leads to some music portal for mp3 downloading; no relevance whatsoever). And it calls the result of the conflict a Pakistani victory ("Result: Pakistan victory. Pakistan annex the southern part of siachen while India keep hold of the northern part of siachen"). This is quite a stretch, to put it lightly. The article itself, using valid citations, says that Pakistan lost 2300-2600 sq km of territory that it formerly held and that almost the entire Siachen glacier is under Indian control (70 km long including high ground vs. Pakistan's 5 km). The previous versions of the article say that the conflict resulted in and Indian victory. I'm reverting this article to a previous version that has legitimacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.247.3 (talk) 07:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

It is true though Ghazi912 (talk) 02:42, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Pls Misplaced Pages u need to be neutral and stop being so pro indian evidences. They r often exadurated please take info from boath sides Ghazi912 (talk) 02:48, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

And siachen conflict is Pakistan victory Ghazi912 (talk) 02:59, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

==The wording seems too Anti-American. Like one example, "maps deliberately show the glacier." That is an opinion, while if the line said "The maps show" this conveys the exact message without injecting one's opinion 99.26.91.7 (talk) 06:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)eric

"War in the sky" ?

In a recent Norwegian television documentary on water-related international conflicts it was stated that this conflict is sometimes termed "the war in the sky" or "the war in heaven" (Norw. "Krigen i himmelen"). I have tried to do some Google searches to try and confirm this but I have been unsuccessful. __meco (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Strength of troops posted in Siachen

The TImes article states that both have about 3000 troops in Sachen. that changed 3000 to 6000 by Hassanhn5 (talk) seems to change this fact. i have reverted the figure back to what has been cited in the source article. regards --dBigXray (talk) 21:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It was driven from the fact that Indian army ordered double the no of outfits as compared to the Pakistan army after they got information through their intelligence source. Fine if you linked a source, but I'll still advice other editors to verify. --lTopGunl (talk) 05:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Please remember that figures in the article need to be supported by reliable sources and not common knowledge or inferences. AshLin (talk) 08:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It was from the mentioned source, which said Indian army was sending in double troops as it had knowledge about Pakistani troops. Either the source is self contradicting or the figure was correct. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:07, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The link provided in the reference appears to be dead. The source could not be accessed through the WayBack Machine and neither did search on Times Archive provide the article. Can you provide a live link of the reference? AshLin (talk) 08:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I just verified the reference. It was linked to the first paragraph of fighting section of the article (from which I took the previous figures), but after reading the story by the magazine, it doesn't have any thing related to the content, so I'm adding a citation needed tag to it so that some one can find a proper reference. Also, time magazine places the no of Pakistani troops to be 800. I'm fixing the figure too. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:55, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• well lTopGunl you are changing the figures and also Disrupting the links so that the citations no longer work. your statement clearly shows that you dont even bother to read the mentioned sources completely , and give lame excuses for your editings that can very well be called Vandalism. Your arguement of Claiming to be editing on Misplaced Pages:Goodfaith will not work then. I encourage you to read the 3 page article again . it clearly states that Pak ordered 150 and india ordered double that is 300 . it does not mean India has 6000 soldiers. please check it again without reverting and editing Misplaced Pages articles or you can be blocked again.

AshLin The link is no longer working as Mr lTopGunl have disrupted. i have now repaired the link and the citation. the article states that Both "India and Pakistan have 150 manned outposts along the Siachen Glacier, with some 3,000 troops each." Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1079528,00.html#ixzz1aYpeKGj3 --dBigXray (talk) 10:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I have not disrupted any citations. This link was working very well. What ever you 'fixed' still shows 800 troops from Pakistani side:

"The two neighbors nearly waged a full-scale war in 1999 when 800 Pakistani soldiers disguised as militants scaled a 5,100-m-high ridge near Kargil in Indian-held Kashmir and began shelling a major road used by the Indians to supply their Siachen outposts." Read the article before quoting. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear lTopGunl (talk) please discuss it here and leave the administrators to do the editing if any on this article page. yes you have "Deliberately broken " the citations so that they cannot be verified . user AshLin and me both have checked that your editing has done that. if you still disagree you can check your history --dBigXray (talk) 10:28, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

All the citations were working perfectly fine in my final edit. I've just tested them from the history. Stop trying to deviate from topic.

The story from times has a clash with its own text stating the figure to be 800 on the first page. Another source is needed.

Administrators are not the only people who can edit articles. If you're not familiar with wikipedia's policies, read WP:BOLD. And donot turn this discussion into a flame war, refer to WP:Civility. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It is possible that 1TopGun1 has some kind of permitted access for the links he is adding but the links are not accessible to the common editor hence his information is unverifiable even if correct. Disagreeing with your edits on this ground of broken link and unverifiable text does not constitute a flame war. AshLin (talk) 04:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

The strength of troops from boath sides is same. It is 25 000 troops Ghazi912 (talk) 02:39, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

File:Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png

According to the image File:Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png, Jammu and Kashmir is not claimed by Pakistan. I don't think this is true, and Pakistan seems to claim the territory. So the image should be changed.VR _talk 23:10, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with that, the image should be edited. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:30, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Replaced it with Image:Kashmir 2007.svg.VR _talk 06:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Saqi Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Saqi Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Misplaced Pages. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Misplaced Pages (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Saqi Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

15000 casualities??....That's not even the strength!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am very amazed to find 15000 casualties on the Indian side.That is not even the strength of the Armed Forces.Morever, the source is an agricultural book and I donot understand how casualties of a war would be mentioned in it.I also see that the editor removed the casualties of Pakistan but placed 15000 casualties on Indian Side.Srikar Kashyap (talk) 11:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed a nice review of my edit. I undid addition of unsourced figures (that was added just before my edit) along with adding sourced figure. And I was just about to add an explanation in the body. If you have a sourced figure for Pakistan's casualties please add it. Now coming to the point, the strength of Indian troops is the number of troops at Siachen glacier at a time, and casualty figure gives the number of troops died since 1984. I hope it helps you understand it. About the source, it is a book on Global warming & environment and since Siachen conflict is adversely affecting the environment of the region, the book is very much related to it. --SMS 12:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

OK...But 15000 is quite a large number and I think more sources are needed to support it.Or else, unknown is better.Do you have any other sources than that book to prove 15000 casualities?.Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 15:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

@SMS Are you kidding me? Using figures of Casualty at Military frontline at Siachen from the book A Textbook of Agricultural Extension Management- By K.R. Gupta , This source for the mentioned content of Indian casualty can not be considered as a reliable source please revert your edit or bring a better source.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 15:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

@Srikarkashyap probably you missed informing User:Darkness Shines and User:JCAla.

@DBigXray Have you even looked at the source? Read my reply above? Do some research before simply disagreeing to something on the basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Read the name of the book on its cover. --SMS 15:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

@SMS-You have NO RIGHT to talk about my edits.Don't act too smartly.That's my wish.You don't sensor whom I inform.You can also happily inform your friend, TopGun.Don't try to divert the matter.Srikar Kashyap (talk) 15:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

<You have no right to tell me who is my friend and who can I inform. And yes I have the right to talk about your inappropriate edits. And don't try to make a simple misunderstanding into a full blown issue. --SMS 16:10, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Simple misunderstanding?..please can you explain what do you mean by that? Srikar Kashyap (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Misunderstanding that casualty figure cannot increase the troops stationed at a place at a time. --SMS 16:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Relax guys dont act silly here,first I would request both of you to strike off lines that is considered impolite and mud slinging from above. Also i do not appreciate taking names of another editors un-necessarily here, Lets just focus on the content and the source. now about the book I have already seen the book and the corresponding line, and i am still saying that it is not a reliable source for this piece of information. this is not wp:IDONTLIKE but a question of wp:RS-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 16:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• Srikar Kashyap, I've dropped you a note on how to go about editing. Please do not invite users who share (or might share) your point of view to a debate like this. This is usually reported to administrators and is a blockable offense. I was the first one to actually notice this, and see SMS's explanation on his talk page, it was clarified. There's no discrepancy here. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• We very well know what book we are talking about I agree that the figure in question was mentioned here in article as a casualty figure since 1984 but to quote a specific number in such an important article it needs to be properly sourced. and the book on agriculture is probably not the book you should be reading to find the number of dead on the line of control-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I asked you to see the source book as you were referring it as a book on Agriculture and I see you still are saying the same. Can you explain by quoting text from WP:RS as to how this source is not reliable? --SMS 17:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you first clarify please that this Titled A Textbook of Agricultural Extension Management by K.R. Gupta is the book you referred above ? also clarify is it not a book on agriculture ? -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This (Title: Global Warming (Encyclopaedia of Environment)) is the book I am referring to (that is why I requested to see the cover of the book or for more detail see the contents of the book). And it is not a book on agriculture as it discusses global warming and other environmental issues rather than agriculture. --SMS 17:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• The content as I see is clearly sourced from by K.R. Gupta which seems to be on Global warming (or agriculture) which makes this book unsuitable for its use as a Primary source for claiming the military casualty figures of 15,000. Unless we have a proper reliable sourced figure whose authenticity can be confirmed the Casualty figure should remain as "unknown" wiki articles are not a place to harbor unsourced claims specially on something as sensitive as this Casualty figure. -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 20:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Since majority of the casualties are from the climatic condition of the area rather than in a military battle, so that is why the source (which discusses the climate of the region) is very much relevant and suitable here. --SMS 20:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to comment on void arguments. You clearly are arguing on the basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Further sources for you: , Casualty rate of Indians is 4 times higher than Pakistani troops. --SMS 21:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

May i ask the expected courtesy of giving the fellow editor the page number of the relevant information in your source? -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 21:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Here you go: (Page 2, Section: The limits of efforts and endurance, Page 14, first para). --SMS 21:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

1. paper by Aamir Ali pg 2 last para does not clarify how he reached the magic number (or wild guess ? )of 15,000 Casualty and there is still no source supporting the figure of 15,000.
2. Page 14, first para has given the source of the "4 times higher" claim from globalsecurity.org. which is clearly not acceptable here another thing to note is global security gives its own number of casualty , which cannot be relied upon as global security is not considered wp:RS

Both these refs are useless as far as this wiki article is concerned-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 11:59, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Please do not editwar. The fact that I reverted to a version means that the consensus has changed. See WP:CONSENSUS. There's no "consensus version" of the article. --lTopGunl (talk) 12:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

TopGun Do not restore the wrong version, and you cannot claim consensus just by your own opinion, i dont see it so far. Besides do not accuse me of edit warring while you do the reverts(edit war) and show complete disregard to this discussion here and claim your own imaginary consensus. I have stated my points clearly above, reply to it-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 12:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

You were the one claiming consensus here. If you think the version is wrong, other editors already think it is right. See WP:The Wrong Version. Clear your concept about consensus from WP:CONSENSUS. A revert already means changing consensus. Also you've reverted two editors... so.. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

It makes sense to let the casualties remain as unknown till a consensus on a reputable source is reached.However, User:AshLin has given two credible sources.

• ] unrelated link

Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 12:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Lol @credible sources (an AMD support page and a blog). @DBigXray You clearly have a wrong understanding of WP:RS. No one in this world can provide sources you are asking for. --SMS 13:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• @TopGun I dont see where have i claimed consensus? the matter is in discussion with no consensus achieved so far, and you unilaterally decided to claim consensus and decide to revert and then go a step furthur and blame me for edit warring, great
• @Srikar both your links are useless for this article.
• @SMS so far we do not have a source for 15,000 claim, which effectively means it will not be added to this wiki article, Wiki articles are not a place to put such poorly sourced figures/ you are of course free to raise the issue further. regards -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 13:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm very sorry..I added the wrong link...this is the correct link I intended to give
• ] Srikar Kashyap (talk) 13:16, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• @srikar the 7th link (rediff) you mentioned above seems to mention combined casualty, hence unsuitable for the infobox, as we need clear individual casualty of the two sides for the infobox.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 13:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• @Xray! No....click on next....in the next page...it even gives estimated casualties of both the sides individually. Srikar Kashyap (talk) 13:38, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• ok the link says According to unofficial figures, Also on furthur searching I have found saying 2100 Indian Casualty which also supported by -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 14:03, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
• The pakistani casualties reportedly varies between 3000 and 8000 as reported in Pakistani news papers, But they also write that these are Unofficial figures.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 14:07, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• Both the governments do not release official data about casualties.However, I think unofficial estimates can be considered provided two or more sources give the same number. Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• two or more sources can be found for any casualty figure. We need to differentiate between opinions/blogs vs proper sources and give preference to a reliable figure which could then be added to infobox, this is an important figure which cannot be poorly sourced. -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 14:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• Yeah..sorry for adding that blog link...I didn't notice it.So let it be unknown until we find more sources.Let SMS and TopGun also tell their opinions. Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 14:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• First I am not bound to inform. Had you people discussed this whole issue in good faith, I would have informed you. --SMS 14:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• So you decided to quietly sneak out to wp:RSN without informing, what a pity that it did not work out-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 10:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Smsarmad refrain from edit the page without consensus, you are the one who had started the discussion ] can't you just wait?--sarvajna (talk) 09:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

No I cannot wait. I can withdraw from my stand whenever I want and I just did it. Now stop edit warring I just undid my own edit and removed the source that was called an unreliable source multiple times. Actually your revert makes me think that you just want to edit war, if I had called that source unreliable you people must be calling it reliable. So please carry on, I am off this place. --SMS 09:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Smsarmad under the section Severe conditions you had again added the 15,000 casualty figure in your previous edit --sarvajna (talk) 09:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the unreliable source now --sarvajna (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I undid it but it all messed up. Seems like you cleared the mess now. Thanks and Sorry! --SMS 09:53, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

• SMS from your "struck off" comment it seems you need to ponder what wp:RS is, a source does not magically become reliable or unreliable if you or me call it reliable or unreliable. It is by the virtue of the source. Also from your comment above its clear that you lack faith in other editors. in order to edit in such controversial cases consensus is a must. regards-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 10:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The strength of soldiers presently in siachen so u know Misplaced Pages is 25 000 dodiers from boath sides. Stop letting incorect info come on the artical. Ghazi912 (talk) 02:51, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

New additions by User Ahsanch12345

User Ahsanch12345, has made some contribution which are alear POV content. Ahsanch12345, you can discuss here before you make any additions. --sarvajna (talk) 09:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Result

I added a source which says "The army bitterly resented the loss of Siachen glacier in 1984 and since then had devoted considerable resources to devising a means of regaining the territory" Smsarmad accuse me of source falsification again and I will seek sanctions against you for your persistent personal attacks. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

It is an ongoing conflict and both sides' active forces are still deployed there, to say that one side won or lost based on a loss/gain of a territorial region is source falsification. --SMS 18:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

No it is not, refrain from your personal attacks. India took the glacier, hence it was a victory per the source. Just because Pakistan is still trying to get it back does not mean it is a stalemate, they are still trying to get Kashmir back as well, which funnily enough is another war they lost. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, where is your source to claim a stalemate? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Keeping the discussion on content, source you provided doesn't say that India won the *conflict* or vice versa for Pakistan. Besides here are the sources which say it is a stalemate:

• P R Chari (2007). Four Crises and a Peace Process: American Engagement in South Asia. Brookings Institution Press. pp. 21–22. ISBN 978-0815713838. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Robert G. Wirsing (1991). Pakistan's Security Under Zia. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 158. ISBN 978-0312060671.
• Edward W. Desmond. "War at the Top of the World". Foreign Correspondent: Fifty Years of Reporting South Asia. Viking Books. p. 157. ISBN 978-0670082049.
• Greg Child. Thin Air: Encounters in the Himalaya. Mountaineers Books. p. 162. ISBN 978-0898865882.
• Beckwith, Christian, ed. (2001). "Climbs and Expeditions: Pakistan". The American Alpine Journal. Mountaineers Books: 367. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Hans Binnendijk (1997). Strategic Assessment 1997: Flashpoints And Force Structure. Diane Publishing. p. 126. ISBN 978-0788146480. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Ashutosh Misra (2000). Siachen Glacier flashpoint: A study of Indian Pakistani relations. University of Durham. p. 19.

--SMS 21:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Your first source mentions the ongoing dispute as being in a stalemate, not the initial Indian seizure of the glacier. Same with the second. Third source says "Pakistan responded to late to push out the Indians and lost 1000 sq miles" And it's mention of stalemate is about the ongoing arguments. I am not going to bother looking at sources 3,4&5, as they are not RS. I am unable to view 6 but I have no doubt it says the ongoing political bitching is at a stalemate, much as the rest of your sources do. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The first source says: "... the two parties remain at a military and political stalemate." I can go on quoting others but it seems that you are only interested in pushing your POV, so I won't waste my time here. --SMS 08:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I know what it says, use your common sense. Any stalemate currently is due to the fact the Pakistan has failed in their attempts to dislodge the Indian military presence. The initial Indian operation lead to a victory, it is still a victory as they have held the ground. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The conflict is ongoing, taking most of the Glacier has not ended the conflict, until the conflict has been formally ended by the 2 countries. You cannot declare the result based on your perspective and back it up using an Indian source which may also be subject to bias. --Thank You Nawabmalhi (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

There was a ceasefire in 2003. As long as the source is reliable and specifically stating the results, it is worth it to use, there is nothing wrong in using "Indian" or any other source unless they are WP:PRIMARY. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 21:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

My edit changing the info box from "Result: Indian Victory" to Status: Ceasefire" was just reverted, and I was directed to the talk page to get "consensus". I do not see consensus here that the claim India has been Victorious appropriate and neutral point of view. Stating that there is a ceasefire is a neutral unbiased statement, and is objectively true. Claiming India has won this battle that has not yet ended is not neutral, it is subjective, and it is a tenuous point to argue. I don't see how anyone can disagree with the fact that there was a ceasefire. In fact we have consensus that there is a ceasefire. What we don't have is consensus that India won. As such I'm putting my edit back. Please leave it until we have consensus that the conflict is over, and has a winner. --Keithonearth (talk) 21:18, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Keithonearth: If you are talking about age old above discussion then kindly click on those users, most of above users are confirmed sock puppets. We are going by reliable sources. If you want to start new discussion then start it here, but don't remove long standing text from article unless there is confirmed consensus to remove that text. For example you can see old versions of this article version of April 2014. This has been part of article since years. You can't delete such text without consensus, and above 2012 discussion is not valid now, specially when most of above are sock puppets and POV pushers. So I'm restoring original version. Moreover, if ceasefire is happened in 2003 then how conflict is "ongoing"? With that logic war of 1947, 1965 and 1999 should also be "ongoing". The source given for "ongoing" is highly unreliable. Moreover infobox itself mentions that "India gained entire Siachen glacier" and we have sources for that. --Human3015 (talk) 21:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If the conflict is over and done with, then it should say so in the article. At present the article states the conflict is ongoing, and goes on to contradict itself with the assertion that India was the victor. The article needs to be edited so that it doesn't contradict itself. Do you seriously suggest that the ceasefire marks the end of the conflict? --Keithonearth (talk) 02:39, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

@Keithonearth: You can read articles of other indo-pakistani wars, Indo-Pakistani War of 1947, Indo-Pakistani War of 1965, Kargil War, in every case "ceasefire" was the result. An those wars are "ended" now. But conflict over territory of Kashmir is still ongoing, its not just about Siachen glacier, its about entire Kashmir region. If proper dialog between governments of India-Pakistan doesn't takes place then you will see this conflict "ongoing" even after 200 years from now. Pakistan claims entire Jammu and Kashmir, you can see status of Kashmir conflict its still "ongoing" but wars have ended(ceasefired). You can read 2014–15 India–Pakistan border skirmishes which are ongoing, its not in particularly in Siachen region, these skirmishes are all around Line of Control and international border. In real sense conflict is "ongoing" for entire region since 1947. As far as Siachen conflict is concerned, ceasefire was done in 2003. --Human3015 (talk) 06:53, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Human3015, you are wrong here. A conflict cannot be calssed as a victory of one side until it is over. As shown by RFC at the main article this should be shown as disputed, and anything disputed is not a victory. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: Kindly provide sources for your claim. Entire Kashmir is disputed. And it is disputed only according to Pakistan, not according to India or UN. So stop pushing national agenda here please. Earlier RfC is failed as "not-clear consensus". --Human3015  07:58, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The RFC failed? hmm well lets see. "There is rough consensus that in some way the infobox should recognise the region is disputed. What form this will take showed no consensus. AlbinoFerret 19:49, 3 August 2015 (UTC)" is written at the top of RFC.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: You discuss it on that article. Read discussion in another section too. See you on talk page of Siachen glacier.--Human3015  08:11, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Disputed??

Some people claiming here "consensus" but I see no "consensus" here. Faizan is also agree with me.(as he said so in his edit summary). So to write controversial lines in infobox kindly establish consensus first. There is "consensus" for "Controlled by India, disputed yby Pakistan" on Siachen glacier article but Faizan is denying it. Anyway, don't involve in edit war, article is under discreationary sanctions. Assume good faith, otherwise we all will get blocked. There is no use of debating with some users, so I will involve some strict admins in this matter, they will decide. Thank you. --Human3015  10:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Calm down, everyone. @Human3015 You have already made three reverts, don;t make the next one, or it will be a breach of 3RR. We should start discussion here. I am open to it. Faizan (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there was an RfC on Siachen Glacier, where the result was "Controlled by India, disputed by Pakistan". Siachen Glacier and Siachen conflict are very closely related. We should discuss here now prior to any edit to this article, or it will lead to further reverts and eventually block. When the conflict is still "ongoing", how can it result in the victory of a single side? Clashes still occur. Faizan (talk) 10:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The parent article for this and all other siachen related articles is Siachen Glacier. The TP of that article has the RFC and the consensus where it was decided to add "disputed" to the article. The RFC is here. I see that one of the first comments was made by you. Now I don't want to assume bad faith on your part so perhaps you are just very very very "forgetful" (pun intended), or perhaps more than one person is controlling your account and you guys don't tell each other what you have done while logged one, Multiple personality disorder is also on the table, but seems a bit far fetched at the moment. Feel free to involve the same strict admins you blocked you every time you tried to vandalize articles related to PAkistan/India. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ok, so neutral editor Faizan then why you reverted my this edit which was neither showing "India as vicotrious" and was rightly showing "Controlled by India and disputed by Pakistan"? --Human3015  10:55, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Because your wording was very very ambiguos. Anyway, there is consensus, and you hae been pointed towards it. no need to carry on holding the stick. Have a good day and good bye. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:59, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Calling me a neutral editor now? Before you called me a Paki POV warrior! is that sarcasm? Why do you simply revert the posts on your talk? Was it vandalism? Faizan (talk) 11:01, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Seems like you bother not to reply to productive discussions. Faizan (talk) 11:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Faizan talk about this issue. My edit was saying "Ceasefire" and "Controlled by India and disputed by Pakistan", what was wrong in it? You just reverted me because you like to revert me without any reason, but your this habit made you blocked once though it was by mistake. Anyway, my edit was neutral. Can you read what is written in result section currently? "Disputed by Pakistan" is that a "result" of war? Are you newbie?? Do we write "disputed by Pakistan" in "result" section?? --Human3015  11:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Human3015 how about calming down a little bit and speaking coherently? I've moved the claimed and disputed text to territory section. No need to get all riled up about it to be frank. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:16, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

• Note - following this discussion, Human3015 followed me to Mohammad Ali Jinnah and reverted by general image fix there. He reverted my edit on his talk where I wanted to discuss the image revert. How one can decide unilaterally that which image is better? Faizan (talk) 11:10, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I think you forgot that, that page is on my watchlist. Ok, well try to leave main point and to hide your blunder edit on this page which can lead you to topic ban. --Human3015  11:13, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

• Ok, calm down, I hope we will not meet anymore on Misplaced Pages. I thought our rifts have been over. Anyway, I am also not editing Indo-Pak articles much these days, I am interested in general topics. I hope better for you people, try to be civil and assume good faith. Bye. --Human3015  11:28, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

BRD or consensus don't work like this. There should be actual consent by the parties, if there is no consensus then previous version is preferred. As long as it is not misrepresenting the sources, I have reverted to the earlier version. Since India holds Siachen, conflict was won by India. Conflict is not actually ongoing, you can prove this to be incorrect if you have actual source where Pakistan has officially declared war against India on Siachen. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@D4iNa4 Don't disrupt the resolution here. The parties to this discussion were me, Human and Freeatlast. And we have agreed on that version. Now, it's up to you to seek consensus. Faizan (talk) 18:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

One cannot be victorious if the war is still ongoing. The fate has yet to be decided. We extensively discussed the RfC in question and according to that RfC, only this version has got consensus here. Faizan (talk) 18:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@D4iNa4your reply makes zero sense. I mean literally zero. Perhaps you wanted to say something and your English is so poor you could not get it across, perhaps there is some other reason. Anyway, the RFC shows that there should be disputed written in the infobox and such has been written. You can explain your .....er..."views" if you want, but otherwise this matter is overFreeatlastChitchat (talk) 18:38, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Reset the debate

Faizan is right that no further edits should be made to the infobox until consensus is reached here. While the debate is ongoing, the pre-dispute version should stay. It seems to be the case at the moment with this edit . Thanks Praveenp. Can I ask FreeatlastChitchat and Faizan to make the case for changing the Result entry? - Kautilya3 (talk) 08:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Kautilya3.

Faizan: Where is the source? Conflict is not ongoing, if you have source that there is some official war between the two countries you can present it. There was ceasefire in 2003. Many sources support victory.

FreeatlastChitchat: I would ask you to provide the source of your opinion. There is no reason to omit the "victory", unless you have source for your claim that there is no victory because conflict is ongoing. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:27, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

D4iNa4 you continue to make zero sense. I mean literally zero sense. Ceasefire does not mean anyone's victory, only a complete lack of common sense will be required to equate ceasefire with victory. You have given two highly UNRELIABLE sources which are basically Indian rhetoric. Anyway long story short 'Infobox does not say that there is an official war going on, it merely says that there is a Ceasefire and no one was victorious and that territory is disputed, a RFC has already established that disputed should be added. If you want to add an Indian victory show us which treaty Pakistan signed as her defeat.' There I put it in bold so we can move away from this time sink debate and suspiciuos accounts with less than 500 edits who "just happened" to come across this page. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 13:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Note the underlined sections of the following quote and then we can discuss the key points it highlights:

"The military stalemate is seen in Pakistan as a victory because neither side can claim to have ousted the other from disputed territory. A more important motive for Pakistan to continue the conflict is to avenge its initial military reverses. All that Pakistan seems to be interested in is to put unbearable pressure on India in terms of human and financial cost.."

(Source: Siachen Glacier flashpoint: a study of Indian Pakistani relations, Ashutosh Misra. https://books.google.ca/books?id=UB5uAAAAMAAJ&q=siachen+glacier+pakistan+victory&dq=siachen+glacier+pakistan+victory&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y.)

The key points from this quote:

1. Neither side controls all of Siachin
2. Pakistan suffered the initial military reverses
3. The status quo favored Pakistan
4. The description used was "stalemate" (note the date of publication, only a couple of years before the ceasefire, and not much changed in the intervening time.)

cӨde1+6 14:19, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

We got a case of WP:GAMING and WP:IDONTLIKE here. These sources including those that have been seen on the main article are highly reliable. Orient Blackswan, Lancer books are reliable sources. We state what sources say, not you. Which wikipedia guideline or policy says that you need 500 or 50,000 edits to edit this article or talk page? It can be edited even if your account has no edits. You have already failed to provide a single source for your personal opinion. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Above message meant for FreeatlastChitchat. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@D4iNa4 As far as I can see, your sources don't say exactly what you're claiming. One of them is describing the "hardline position" in India domestically, while the other source is saying that even though there was a military victory, it has been very costly to India, which can be interpreted as a tactical success but not a strategic victory. Neither source you listed is claiming India has won a "strategic victory" (the technical term for "winning" in military literature), both are qualifying their remarks regarding India's tactical gains in this conflict, and it seems to me that you are ignoring those qualifications. Both of your sources actually seem to correlate exactly with the statements in the source that I posted and its "key points". cӨde1+6 14:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You realize that my point was to mention that there was a victory. What is the actual line you are going to propose? Because result as "Ceasefire since 2003" seems rather incomplete and not correct representation of outcome of conflict. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Code16 Note that the Ashutosh Misra paper is an unpublished "working paper." It is not a reliable source. It is also out of date. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:50, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@D4iNa4 I'm trying to make you realize that this real-world situation does not fit into the neat little box you're trying to force it into. In warfare and geopolitics the outcomes are not always clear, and this is clearly one of those cases. Your own sources are telling you that India might have gotten some real-estate, but the costs for it have been very high, which is exactly what my source is telling you (which is also an Indian author it seems.) So even if Indian authors are not claiming a strategic victory, due to the costs and the fact that the status quo favors Pakistan, then you can't fit this outcome into a neat little "victory/defeat" result.

0

I think you're mistaken, the publication information states that it was published in June 2000 by Centre for Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies, Issue 65 of Durham Middle East papers by the  University of Durham. It's available for citations in multiple locations for researchers e.g. the Stanford library has it (http://catalog.stanford.edu/view/4494377). And it's publication date is very significant for this discussion as it wasn't too before the ceasefire. Besides, my argument is that D4iNa4's sources actually coraborate the information that my source has provided. cӨde1+6 15:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• comment: Some editors are claiming that there is "RFC" done for whatever written currently in infobox. This is completetly wrong. RFC at Siachen glacier was done to write word "disputed" in infobox of that glacier, that RFC was not done to decide "result" of the conflict, so it seems there is no consensus for current version of result which is inserted by some nationalist editors which is now opposed by many neutral uninvolved editors. I think we should restore pre-dispute version stating "Indian victory" and new RFC should be done to decide "result" of the conflict. --Human3015  15:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@User:Human3015, you are labeling everyone on one side as "nationalist" while your own side you're claiming is neutral, so obviously I highly doubt the neutrality of your own assessment. At the end of the day 3 of the editors here disagree with your position, so I don't see any overwhelming numbers favoring you. Finally, I think the sourced argument I've presented above precludes the possibility of any arbitrary changes to the status-quo for now, as I'm pretty sure it's a strong case against labeling the result of the conflict a simple "victory" for either side. cӨde1+6 15:58, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I am saying as per my experience with those editors, I am not insisting to keep "Indian victory" version, I am just saying to keep "pre-dispute" version and start a RFC. Whats wrong in it?? --Human3015  16:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You said we should restore the "indian victory" (implying a strategic victory) version which is inaccurate, ignores the qualifications, and simply not supported by the sourced facts (not even from the one presented by your side.) I recommend we apply for the "formal dispute resolution" option (I think that's what it's called), which deals with more complex issues between multiple editors. The RfC is for more specific disputes (AFAIK), and there are multiple sources/arguments that require analysis in this case. cӨde1+6 16:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I said to restore pre-dispute version, even if we go for WP:DRN in that case also we are suppose to restore pre-dispute version till dispute resolves. And whatever you are talking about sources is very common thing on Misplaced Pages, Pro-pakistani nationalist editors claim every source as unreliable which goes against Pakistan's interest, same applies to Pro-Indian nationalist editors who claim every source as unreliable which is against India's interest. So this debate is useless here, because as per my experience all involved editors here either have Indian or Pakistani background, even some of them exclusively known for nationalistic editing. So no use of debating this issue here between apparently Indian and Pakistani editors. RFC can bring non-Indian, non-Pakistani editors here and they can give nice opinion by examining sources. So only best thing we can do it to restore "pre-dispute" version and start a RFC.--Human3015  17:11, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@User:Human3015 First of all, I'll ask again, please stop generalized labeling of editors (your personal experiences are irrelevant.) Secondly, I have not claimed unreliability of any sources presented by either side. My argument is questioning the conclusions that the other side is drawing from its own sources, and adding another source to the mix which makes the matter clearer. I still recommend that we go to WP:DRN. As for restoring any previous versions, I'll let other editors figure out which version is considered "pre-dispute" as I was not involved in the history of this. cӨde1+6 17:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Code16 I am also saying same thing to restore pre-dispute version before going to WP:DRN. It does not matter if pre-dispute version is right or wrong because it is not proved yet. Individual editors can have their opinion for some view. --Human3015  18:36, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Looks like we might not even have to go to WP:DRN, see below. cӨde1+6 18:55, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

If a prior RFC does not specifically mention this article or is not a general RFC (e.g., "infoboxes about war X should state that Y had a marginal victory" or "X is to be renamed Y"), it can be used as guidance but generally should not be pointed to as determining consensus for this article. --NeilN 16:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - As we all know, the India-Pakistan disputes get caught up in endless semantic debates, where little words have big meanings. Hence, I think the infobox shouldn't say "Indian victory" unless there is a high-quality reliable source that says exactly that. The Paul Kapur source is not saying that. So, unless somebody else can produce some other source, "Indian victory" goes. - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3 We have to restore pre-dispute version before going for WP:DRN. Rest of discussion regarding reliability of sources can be done on WP:DRN. There is no harm in restoring pre-dispute version specially when it was very long standing version. Indivudual opinions are welcomed on WP:DRN because no one has special ownership over content, so restoring pre-dispute version will be a good idea. --Human3015  18:40, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

The issue is not yet ripe to go to WP:DRN. The debate here is continuing. No source has yet been provided for "Indian victory" as far as I can see. So it doesn't make sense to go to DRN yet. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, now that is good reason that you gave, but your earlier reason was not valid "to not restore pre-dispute version". Yes, debate is open and we are debating it. If in any case issue goes to WP:DRN then we have to restore pre-dispute version till dispute get resolved. All dispute started because some editor added some content to article, so we should restore version prior to that before going to WP:DRN. --Human3015  18:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• Agreed with Kautilya3: I think this is a wise suggestion for such a complex dispute involving the outcome of a military engagement. None of the sources presented thus far award either side with a clear strategic victory, as has been pointed out. Unless such a source is presented, the status quo should hold. cӨde1+6 18:55, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Code16 Are you serious? Do you think that keeping result "ceasefire" is "status quo"? It means you are making this debate as "India vs Pakistan". On Misplaced Pages, "status quo" means keeping "pre-dispute" version. This is not battlefield. --Human3015  19:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You can call it whatever you wish, I'm supporting the opinion that reverting to the "indian victory" version is not merited, given the sources and the arguments. cӨde1+6 19:16, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Code16: That is your opinion as one of party of dispute. Every disputant thinks that version of his/her choice should be restored while RFC or WP:DRN going on, but sorry, we restore pre-dispute long standing version in such cases, I will again say it does not matter that version is right or wrong, just to keep "status quo" we restore "Pre-dispute" version. --Human3015  19:40, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

That's clearly not just my opinion, in fact, right now only you are claiming otherwise. cӨde1+6 19:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

It does not matters how many people agree on something as long as all are disputants. We have to restore pre-dispute version before going to WP:DRN, now please close this DRN matter for now. You can ask any admin regarding this "pre-dispute" version thing if you don't believe in my words. It was long standing version. Better you talk about content and leave DRN and "Pre-dispute" for now. But just keep in mind that we have to restore "pre-dispute" version if matter goes to WP:DRN till dispute gets resolved. --Human3015  19:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

??? Im talking about the content not the DRN. Lets just stick to the proposal below. cӨde1+6 19:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

If the "Indian victory" version cannot be supported, then I would propose a wording like: Ceasefire sine 2003; Siachen Glacier comes under Indian control; Continues to be disputed by Pakistan. This is close enough to the previous RfC wording that I am hoping that people can agree on it. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3: Whatevr you wrote is already there in infobox, read both "result" and "territorial changes" section. I will again say that RFC was for Siachen glacier, it was not done to determine outcome of the Siachen conflict.--Human3015  19:40, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no problem in adding "disputed by Pakistan" as RFC has been done for that, but it may need another RFC to determine outcome of the conflict.--Human3015  19:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You are right. The territorial changes entry is too wordy and unmemorable. My second and third clauses can replace it, I think. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:26, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• Agreed with proposal. cӨde1+6 19:47, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Some people here claiming that "conflict" is still going on. Ok. "Conflict" is still going on means what exactly still going on?? Is there any active war going on between two nation? Does both countries have declared that they are on war? We can say that "dispute" is still going on (not war), Pakistan can keep on claiming Siachen and Kashmir till day of Qayamat, no question about that, but just because Pakistan says something we can't write it here. Same applies for Indian view. If some kind of war is still going on then why "ceasefire" is written in result section. We should write "on going" in "Result" section if conflict is still going on.--Human3015  20:20, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Let us not go back to old arguments. Let us move forward. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:27, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@User:Human3015 If the status of this conflict confuses you, refer to other similar outcomes where the conflict is not active and a truce has been signed. Sometimes this state goes on for generations. Here's a famous an example: Korean_War. They ceased-fire in Korea and an armistice ("an agreement made by opposing sides in a war to stop fighting for a certain time.") was reached, and remains in effect to this day. I don't know why you are so surprised by this, it's a pretty common thing in history. Actually, I think it's way more common than the outright decisive strategic victories, which are quite rare. cӨde1+6 20:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Such a long and time wasting debate. Ceasefire means that war is ongoing and it has been "temporarily" stopped. User talk:Human3015 you can use a dictionary if your comprehension of English is not enough to grasp this simple fact. Kautilya3 your suggestion has also mixed up "territorial changes" with "result". You can look at any other war you want, any other war to be frank. And there you will find that no one has mentioned "territorial changes" within the Result Parameter. To be frank why the hell are we using a 'Result' Parameter when the actual parameter should be 'Status'? I see that a couple of guys are in the delusion that the conflict is not ongoing, well these RELAIBLE sources 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 would like to disagree. According to WP:Burden any text going into the article must be sourced by the guys who want to put it in. So basically anyone who wants to claim that siachen conflict is 'OVER' must present sources which say so, reliable sources too, not just Indian rhetoric. As the conflict is ongoing the Parameter used will be status. As for the territorial changes, I completely agree with the proposal that captured/controlled/(any other word play on this) by India and disputed/claimed/(any other synonym) by Pakistan is appropriate.:FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: Better you don't talk about English of other people, we all know how pissed off your English is with your pissed off vocabulary. Anyway, Result section of 1947, 65 and 99 wars says "ceasefire" in result section, so as per your logic those wars are still on going?--Human3015  03:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@Human3015: your first sentence has made no sense. I know you are very poor in your grasp of English language but what does that sentence mean only you can tell. I think even if we bring a hundred other guys they will not be able to make sense of your first sentence and will consider is gibbersih, did you just take a random diff and then post it here? What does pissed off english even mean? Did you want to copy past something from google and that diff was already on your clipboard? Please be kind enough to explain your nonsensical opening in your reply. Now I have presented a lot of sources which say the conflict is ongoing, time for you to present sources which say it ended. Simple as that, let me bold it up for you, 'Show us which neutral, RS says that siachen conflict is over'.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:44, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I think it is good time to go for WP:DRN, because it seems editors are only interested in doing personal attacks here. --Human3015  04:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@Human3015: Why go to DRN when I (and others I am sure) are ready to accept your text if you are kind enough to 'Show us which neutral, RS says that siachen conflict is over'. Yes I bolded it up again, just so that it grabs your attention. I fail to see any personal attack here, I'm sure you will be able to point out the personal element in this request in your next reply. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I think you have not yet answered my previous question, result section of 1947, 65 and 99 wars says "ceasefire", so these wars are still on going or over? You should not confuse conflict/dispute with word "war". There is no currently declared war in Siachen is going on, only dispute or claim over this territory is going on. As I said in one of my earlier comment that Pakistan can claim or dispute glacier till day of Qayamat or beyond that, but there is no declared war is going on, if you think that any declared war is going on in this region then please provide sources for that, you are the one who added these edits. As of now there is no war going on between India and Pakistan, only ceasefire violations on random sites at LoC are going on.--Human3015  04:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@Human3015: I ahve already provided EIGHT sources which say that 'CONFLICT IS ONGOING'. Did you fail to read them? I mean they are right there smack dab in the middle of my reply, nicely arranged from 1 to eight with links. What prevents you from reading them? Here let me list them again, I'll just copy paste and bold it up for you so you can see it right away. 'Sources are here which say conflict is ongoing' 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. All these guys say the conflict is ongoing, so where are your sources which say that the conflict has ended? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 04:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I think you have not read my previous comment, you are yet to provide source for any declared war in this region. Anyway, what problem you have with WP:DRN? If you think that you are right then why you are worrying? Instead we can get some better uninvolved editor to examine this situation. Whats your problem? --Human3015  05:02, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah sure lets go for DRN and get this over with. I've filed the request FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@User:Human3015 You're still misunderstanding the terms. I've tried to explain this to you using the Korean War as an analogy. Technically, that is still an on-going conflict, even though the major military engagement ended over half a century ago. The outcome of the Korean War is listed as an "armistice" on its wiki article, which means a temporary cessation of fighting i.e. cease-fire. This case is similar to Siachin, because no final peace agreement has been signed and a cease-fire/armistice is in effect. The same applies to the 1947/65/99 wars, as they were all centered on the Kashmir dispute, which is still on-going as neither side has conceded their conflicting claim. All conflicts where there is a cease-fire in effect can restart at any time, and in many cases there is a constant level of active hostilities, mobilization and even attrition. cӨde1+6 05:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• @Kautilya3: Right now you have proposed "Ceasefire sine 2003; Siachen Glacier comes under Indian control; Continues to be disputed by Pakistan", can you think of any other alternatives? Main point is to mention the India gaining control of the glacier, that you have got well. I think it can also be "Siachen Glacier comes under Indian control. Ceasefire sine 2003. Territory continues to be disputed by Pakistan." D4iNa4 (talk) 08:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

For those who claim Indian Victory, Here is the Quote from a reliable Indian Source. "Indeed many Indians viewed the Siachin operations as a "diplomatic and military disaster", a view not confined to civilians alone." HIAS (talk) 09:53, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• DRN filed. Further proposals to be presented there. Regards. Faizan (talk) 10:45, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Jayanta Kumar Ray (2007). Aspects of India's International Relations, 1700 to 2000: South Asia and the World. Pearson Education India. p. 251. ISBN 978-81-317-0834-7.

Revised proposal

Since my previous proposal, a suggestion has made that the Result parameter should be changed to Status. I don't see a problem with it, because the conflict would be over only after India and Pakistan get together and negotiate a settlement. So my revised proposal is:

• Status: Ceasefire since 2003
• Territorial changes: Siachen Glacier comes under Indian control; Continues to be disputed by Pakistan.

Please comment on this. (The DRN is not active until it has been accepted.) - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:01, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Agreed per all above arguments. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed

@Kautilya3 This was exactly what I added to the article with my edit but it was reverted by Human3015 due to reasons unknown. I have been proposing this exact text since this mess started.FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Agreed per Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and above mentioned Source. HIAS (talk) 13:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed - By the way I think there's a typo in the status. "sine 2003"? cӨde1+6 13:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
• Ok, agree on this proposal. --Human3015  19:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed - Is there any major difference between this proposal and FreeatlastChitchat's current version? Seems like the "Territorial changes" are being abridged. That's all. @Human3015: All that fuss? Faizan (talk) 15:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

@Faizan: don't you think that all this fuss is started by you by your unnecessary revert you done as part of your hounding habit? And now you are agreeing on same kind of version which I actually restored which you reverted. Anyway, I don't want to discuss this issue further.--Human3015  15:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

The main difference is that I "talked". Shows you the importance of talking! Since all of us are agreed, I will implement the change, unless somebody has done it already. Thank you everybody! - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

1 the reality of Siachen is that its terrortry is under pakistan but india have occupied it. Why is this article on Misplaced Pages with the Indian claim and not Pakistani one? U should be going in the middle and not always on the indian claim of Siachen. And stop takeing evidence from Indian newspapers online always. and why cant u chose the pakistani ones as well. Go and check on google maps if siachen is in pakistan or india ,go and check its timezone. It says +5 from uk and not +5.30. So Misplaced Pages stom saying to me that i am vandlising because im not. Im just putting in true facts.pls reply back Ghazi912 (talk) 02:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Infact india has not rven occupied siachen. They r just standing on saltoro ridge Ghazi912 (talk) 03:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

And the reality is control by Pakistan disputed by india. Ghazi912 (talk) 03:02, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions

There was a request to fully protect this article for a further two weeks. Rather than do that, I've applied a WP:1RR editing restriction until November 1, 2015. --NeilN 03:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

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Editing restrictions

Copied from Talk:Kashmir conflict

I'm imposing the following restrictions on this article and any other articles connected with the India Pakistan conflict over Kashmir:

• An immediate 1 RR restriction. Any attempt, even if made in good faith, to do more than one revert in a 24 hour period will lead to an immediate block.
• A revert without discussion restriction. Any revert of any edit, however minor, that is done without an explanation on the talk page will lead to an immediate block.
• A civility restriction. Any suggestion that any editor is not editing in good faith will lead to an immediate block.
• An ethnicity claim restriction Any attempt to bring the purported or deduced or imagined ethnic or nationality identities of any users will lead to an immediate block. This includes an editor's own stated ethnic identity or nationality. Misplaced Pages uses reliable sources and the weighting of those sources to decide what to include, what not to include, and how the content should be stated in an article. Please stick to arguments based on those factors.
• Pinging @Bishonen, EdJohnston, SpacemanSpiff, Doug Weller, and Floquenbeam: to take a look and see if anyone needs to be cautioned/blocked right now and to help keep an eye on things.

--regentspark (comment) 17:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Recent Edits

These kind of edits are POV pushing especially when the provided sources doesnt explicitly support the notion of "Indian victory". It's also a case of WP:FAKE and WP:SYNTHESIS. It seems as if MapSGV came back after a lull of 3 years and found content on WP which was not according to his liking and he then went on with edits saying "What previous version said".Sir, WP would have changed alot since your absence, please discuss before you edit.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   08:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

All of those sources are enough for the result. When I checked last time in 2015 the infoxbox said victory and it should continue. You need to find sources that claim India didn't win, but lost. Policies are still same and WP:IDONTLIKEIT seems prevailing. MapSGV (talk) 08:48, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Did you go through WP:FAKE and WP:SYNTHESIS? Per WP:BURDEN, would you please quote your sources and the text within them that clearly says "Indian victory"? Please also read NPOV.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   08:53, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I am not going to bother with your apparent dislike of the results which is evidenced by your laughable claims. Read the essays you are throwing first. First source supports "victorious India" equivalent to India victory while other two source said that Pakistan lost Siachen to India. MapSGV (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

TripWire: how about we remove victory from Battle of Chawinda since no source support "Pakistani victory"? While vast majority of source support the fact that Pakistan lost this conflict since they don't control the glacier that they controlled before. Capitals00 (talk) 09:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Attaboy, MapSGV! With such a pleasant and collaborative attitude, I doubt any further discussion with you will be useful. May I suggest you read the previous discussion/debate on the result issue of this article while I ask an Admin to intervene:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Siachen_conflict#Result
• https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Siachen_conflict#Disputed??
• https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Siachen_conflict#Revised_proposal (this one especially)

Capitals00, sorry, you need to discuss Battle of Chawinda on its related talk, BTW, that too had been discussed, only if you bothered to go through it.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   09:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I was only refuting your senseless excuses for denying Indian victory but good you agreed with my point. Additional source that was just added supports the result as well. Discussion initiated due to edit warring by disruptive topic banned editors and sockmasters have no value here and there is no need to do this stonewalling. Capitals00 (talk) 09:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• Goodness gracious. If this type of POV pushing is going to persist especially on longstanding articles, I think we have no option but to take this to WP:DRN. I am surprised that such edits are even being made, in complete mockery of WP:ARBIPA. MapSGV, you are clearly not an uninvolved or neutral editor as far as this article is concerned, so please do not initiate an edit war whilst this issue is up. Mar4d (talk) 13:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you really need DRN for learning about WP:V. There's no rule that only uninvolved editors can edit. Don't make up your rules and focus on content. About which you have nothing to say. MapSGV (talk) 13:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Actually when an editor with barely 80 edits over a 4 year period starts making such POV edits across longstanding war articles out of no where, we have far more to worry about. Edits like these are a textbook case of invoking topic bans, so the least you can do is adhere to guidelines and tread carefully. Thanks, Mar4d (talk) 13:19, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

You are fooling yourself if you really believe such nonsense. You are POV pushing by disagreeing with the reliable sources since they go against your imaginary world. It's a shame that you waste so much time on Misplaced Pages yet you don't agree with it core principles for the sake of your POV. There is no reason to remove content except WP:IDONTLIKEIT which I can understand but you are being too incompetent that you have to cry out loud for disruption in place of talking about content. MapSGV (talk) 13:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

MapSGV, avoid personal attacks, please.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   13:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you have anything sensible to say? — MapSGV (talk) 13:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• I've reverted Mar4d since the fact that Pakistan lost the conflict is amply supported by multiple reliable sources and so far he has yet to provide a policy based rationale for why it should be omitted. —MBL 14:05, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

MBlaze, I see your revert as proof of obstruction, and disruptive. The "reliable sources" you are mentioning do not support this WP:OR. In fact, the result of Operation Meghdoot (a separate article) is being copied into this article as WP:POVFORK, when it does not belong here. This article is on an ongoing conflict, it is not a resolved conflict. So the notion of a result is logicless. Mar4d (talk) 14:22, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Makes no sense because if there was any truth there then so many scholarly sources won't be calling it a Indian victory or Pakistan loss. What can be more obvious than the fact that Pakistan lost Siachen and tried a few times to gain it but failed? That's clear Indian victory. There's ceasefire since 2003. MapSGV (talk) 14:25, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Here's a yet another reliable source that explicitly use the term "Victorious: India, Defeated: Pakistan". —MBL 14:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

That's a high quality source. I see just no reason why we need to remove Indian victory. MapSGV (talk) 14:41, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I've dug up some more reliable sources that could be used to support "Indian victory". Here they are: —MBL 14:47, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

The first link, I see no text. The second link isn't WP:RS, and the third is simply digging up a source on the post-1980s situation. Again not relevant, there's an article on Operation Meghdoot. Same old. Instead of googling phrases, how about producing a quality source on the de facto situation, so that it may help clear up your confusion. There is no such thing as an ongoing, open conflict having a "result". It is like implying the Kashmir conflict has a result. The Siachen conflict has no result, it's an open conflict whose only status as of present is that of a disputed territory. Adding bits and pieces from 1980s operations is of no consequence here. Once again, I suggest you actually read the status of the conflict instead of expanding WP:OR. Mar4d (talk) 14:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d. Stop engaging in this usual IDHT and provide the rebuttal that Pakistan was the winner, then only we can compromise or else drop it because WP:JDL is not enough. Capitals00 (talk) 15:07, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d, your arguments smacks of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. The Pongsak Hoontrakul source clearly says "Siachen conflict (1984 — 2003)
Victorious: India / Defeated: Pakistan". Your claim that the Roy source "isn't WP:RS" is obviously not true, since the book is published by Orient Blackswan, a reliable publisher and the author's credentials are good — so it definitely meets WP:RS. The Cohen source also says that the conflict resulted in the defeat of Pakistan. —MBL 16:06, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

And indeed, your claim that these sources "do not support this" is false as well. The first source clearly says, "it represents a major military victory for India". The second source too explicitly says that India was victorious in this conflict. Here's the relevant excerpt from the source:

In 1984, India launched a successful military operation and has since maintained control over all of the Siachen Glacier and its tributaries. Between 1984 and 1999, frequent skirmishes took place, and a cease-fire took effect in 2003. But a victorious India was in a strong military and political position to negotiate a new accord with Pakistan over Kashmir, and notably on the CFL, which was renamed the LOC.

The rest of the sources also use phrases like "Pakistan's loss of Siachen Glacier to India in 1984", "The Pakistan army in general and the FCNA in particular were deeply embarrassed by the loss of the Siachen Glacier to Indian forces". —MBL 16:06, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Exactly my point. This was discussed to death in the past discussions from what I see, and there was a reason that the current version was adopted. The 1984 battle has nothing to do with this. The infobox already summarises that India currently occupies the glacier. This article is not about the 1984 battle as a result of which India occupied the glacier, it is about the current conflict and territorial dispute over Siachen which remains unresolved. Mar4d (talk) 16:12, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

No, the 2003 ceasefire ended the conflict, as per reliable sources. Stop this disruptive WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior. —MBL 08:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

That's like telling that India didn't won 1971 war, only won the battles of that war. You need to accept the overall result. Pakistan never launched a successful attack on India, India successfully defended Siachen. That's why overall result is Indian victory. MapSGV (talk) 16:15, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

The conflict is ongoing. Both countries fought, Pakistan defended, India held some chunk of territory, the fighting stopped, but skirmishes went on, only to be stopped when the 2003 ceasefire took place. Now this does not mean the war/conflict is over. It can erupt even tomorrow, in that case, you say that there would be a new article on that, I dont think so, atleast initially it would appear in this article. As Mar4d pointed out, for people living in the 80s, it could have been considered a (temporary) victory, but as of today, the situation can change overnight, hence we cannot give this ongoing conflict a definitive result.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   08:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d with his clear WP:IDONTLIKEIT doesn't have credibility to remove results. We need sources not your personal emotional opinion. Pakistan lost every time they tried to conquer back. — MapSGV (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Re: Pakistan lost every time they tried to conquer back. This exactly implies that the conflict is still ongoing. Thanks for agreeing with my point and summing up the verbosity for all of us.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   09:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

"Thanks for agreeing with my point and summing up" that Pakistan lost that's why result should say Indian victory. — MapSGV (talk) 09:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I think self-defeating arguments like "India successfully defended Siachen", "Pakistan lost every time they tried to conquer" shows who's venting emotional and non-factual opinion here. And for the record, the glaciers are still militarily occupied by Pakistan and India. There's been no retreat from either side. So the ground situation is as per status quo. It's not a victory or defeat. And it's time you drop your POV stick, because an SPA whose first edits involve adding contentious OR and POV across several articles doesn't have a very bright future on Misplaced Pages. Mar4d (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Why? You feel hurt? Your problem. So far most editors have agreed with me and not you. Pakistan lost this Siachen and that is why it's Indian victory. Quit trolling already. It won't help you. If SPAs were so loosely defined then I will call you an SPA who is here only to push Pro-Pakistani POV and unable to disagree with what goes against his POV even if all reliable sources disagree. You need to worry about your disruption which is occurring throughout Misplaced Pages despite your very bad past that is further going to affect your future in Misplaced Pages. It is funniest when a disruptive POV pusher is trying to lecture. — MapSGV (talk) 09:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Gauging from this, let's get one thing crystal clear. You are not only a POV warrior, but an WP:SPA whose only purpose is to cause disruption. And you are definitely not a new user, which brings me to my other question. Why don't you declare your actual purpose here, as it's only a matter of time before someone finds out. The type of WP:NPA is eerily familiar, and it's good enough for a sanction if this persists. Mar4d (talk) 10:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Lay off the ad hominem and empty accusations and focus on the content under discussion. You're just demonstrating your inability to refute his arguments. And, if you think someone's a sock, then file an WP:SPI, which is the appropriate place for such allegations. —MBL 11:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d I had asked you to stop trolling but you are just not listening what I said. Given your own record of blocks and inability to discuss content, it is astonishing to see that you are attempting to find any faults in me. It is too apparent that you are trying to find a way to get away with your POV but I tell you, that you are going to only fail. I am editing since 2014, but I never saw this much nonsense ever before on Misplaced Pages. You need to file an SPI like Mblaze Lightning said, in place of trying to act funny here. MapSGV (talk) 13:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• Folks, for those of us trying to follow the debate, the discussion is getting very confusing and obscure, interspersed with repeated ad hominem attacks and mutual recriminations. Can everybody please focus on the content and not the participants? If you have an issue with any editor's conduct, please take it to his/her User talk pages. The experienced editors need to take a lead on this. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:10, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Warning

From what I can see, the consensus is . Someone should restore this consensus in the infobox and then discuss if they feel it needs to be changed. Only changing it if there is a new consensus. I will block anyone who reverts the consensus version until a new consensus is reached. (If there is a later consensus, please let me know, with diffs, and I'll revise this notice.)--regentspark (comment) 14:23, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I've restored the "consensus version" for now.. —MBL 14:28, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

It seems that it was a compromise between 6 editors and I am also sure that most editors won't agree anymore since the discovery of new sources. This link included votes from later topic banned user Freeatlastchitchat who started the edit war in 2015 and also Faizan who is still socking. Now three editors are in agreement of victory while the two opposers are simply resorting to WP:JDL to remove results. Capitals00 (talk) 14:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I have to disagree. What I see is a concerted effort to push WP:POV into a longstanding article, and a POV that is being caused in part due to WP:OR and WP:SYNTH of sources. Once again, there's no explanation what a 1980s conflict has to do with this article, which is on the current territorial conflict and not a battle. Mar4d (talk) 15:00, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Provide sources for your original research, given you are yourself POV pushing with apparent disregard to reliable sources claiming that you read nothing, you really hold little to no credibility. — MapSGV (talk) 15:09, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• I admit that I appear to have been enormously wise in the old discussion, but that is probably because I was uninvolved. Now that I am beginning to look into the issues, I see that this article is structured as a military conflict, which ended with the 2003 ceasefire. I see no reason why it shouldn't have a result field. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:14, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

The ceasefire is not the "end" of the conflict. The territory is still disputed and claimed. Mar4d (talk) 15:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

It will be forever disputed and Pakistan won't start a war over it and if they did then the new article will be created about it. Right now, as per reliable sources this war is over and India won. — MapSGV (talk) 15:52, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• Sorry, Mar4d, I didn't notice this response earlier. Let us draw a parallel. The First Kashmir War was a military conflict, which ended with the ceasefire. The Kashmir conflict is a political/diplomatic dispute which is ongoing. Over here, the military conflict is being called Siachen conflict, which ended with the ceasefire. (Just because the term "conflict" is used, instead of "war", the nature of the subject doesn't change.) If there is need for a separate article on the political/diplomatic dispute, it can be created. But if it is not notable enough, it can be covered in an "Aftermath" section in this article itself.

If there is an ongoing military conflict, I don't see it being covered in the article. If and when such is content is added, we can revisit the issue. At the moment, adding a result field to the infobox seems like an accurate summary of the article as it stands. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

You are either missing or intentionally overlooking the point that Operation Meghdoot has a separate page of its own. So your assumption, which essentially depends on WP:CONTENTFORK, holds no ground unfortunately. Mar4d (talk) 12:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

He is not missing anything nor intentionally overlooking. Conflict was much larger than that battle and the result was Indian victory, no way we should be removing it. MapSGV (talk) 12:54, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• I was a part of that "consensus" but it was just a compromise because Freeatlastchitchat was bludgeoning too much but now that he is topic banned and so is Faizan, we can reinsert Indian victory back with these new sources. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:41, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
• No geopolitical conflict can be brought to a conclusion until BOTH sides choose to do so. This is usually accompanied by a UN resolution signed by BOTH parties (e.g. Resolution 242 signed by all belligerents of the "6 Day War".) In Siachin (actually, the Kashmir conflict generally) the belligerents have not agreed on a final settlement for the disputed territory (this is why massive forces are still deployed there by both sides, obviously) and therefore, no one side can claim victory unilaterally. Victory is NEVER declared unilaterally, until the other side accepts to stop fighting/disputing the issue. And last I checked, Siachin is still a contested territory officially. So it does not matter what tactical victory was achieved by either side, because strategically the ground is still contested by the political actors. In short: Until BOTH sides come to the table and the territory is no longer contested, there can be no official or final "victory" by either side. Code16 (talk) 00:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I think this argument is completely random and seems to be an opinion of the editor. There are many contrary examples and I reference two to convey my point. One example here is the Falklands War which was fought over Falkland Islands. Argentina till date disputes the British ownership of the island but that does not mean the conflict did not end. Another example is Nagorno-Karabakh War which resulted in the creation of Republic of Artsakh an unrecognized entity but the war still had a result. So this argument that we need both sides to agree to something and the territory is still contested are feeble excuses for not updating the result. There was a discernible territorial change and multiple reliable sources support the claim of an Indian victory. For all purposes the conflict ended in 2003 with the ceasefire. Just because Pakistan disputes Indian ownership of the territory is not enough reasons to not update the result. Adamgerber80 (talk) 01:25, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Both your examples actually support MY claims. First, you cited the Falklands War page, but forgot about the Argentine surrender in the Falklands War page. Their governor officially surrendered the Islands to British control. Pakistan has not "surrendered" anything in Siachin. As for the Nagorno-Karabakh War, you again forgot the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict page (Note the word "war" and "conflict" in the two pages). The latter page (Nagorno-Karabakh conflict) which is more in line with the Siachin Conflict, also states the result as "ongoing" for the same reason. This page is not about any particular engagement, but the general "conflict." This is why the only result so far in Siachin "Conflict", is a ceasefire, not a victory for either side yet. This also shows that the consensus on "ceasefire" is generally consistent with other Wikiedpia articles. Code16 (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

You arr using your own opinion to counter the reliable sources. Conflict does have definitive results and they are not always meant to remain ongoing. See Sino-Soviet conflict (1929), Sino-Soviet border conflict, 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, Korean DMZ Conflict (1966–1969), Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, 1967 Arab-Israeli conflict and many others. You have to think that scholars and experts are intelligent enough to know that as well, why they would deceive the readers by saying that this was Indian victory? They say that because that's what correct result is. — MapSGV (talk) 02:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

All the examples you cited also support my argument, which you have still not understood. You can not "end" a conflict in a "victory" for one side when the conflict is "ongoing." Otherwise it's just a stalemate or some sort. Look at the content of your own examples:

• Israeli-Hezbollah conflict: the result there is "Stalemate, both sides claim victory"
• 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict : Infobox says "Victory claimed by both sides"
• Sino-Soviet conflict (1929): "the Chinese signed the Khabarovsk Protocol." Pakistan didn't sign anything.
• Korean DMZ Conflict (1966–1969): "3 December 1969 is regarded as the official end of the conflict", while Siachin is "ongoing".
• 1967 Arab-Israeli conflict: I already cited the UN resolution signed by both sides. Did you not read that?
• Sino-Soviet border conflict: Results is stated as "Status quo ante bellum" (obviously not the case with Siachin)

Clearly, all the 8 examples you both have cited support MY argument and show consistency of the original consensus with the rest of these Misplaced Pages articles. Furthermore, as Mar4d said, 1980s sources for an ongoing conflict are outdated and pointless. They simply have no bearing on this page, because it is not about a particular engagement or battle but the general conflict, (which is still "ongoing."). Once again: The only way to end a conflict officially would be something signed by BOTH sides to signal an end to the dispute. Until then, it is just a stalemate of some sort, just like a bunch of articles you yourself cited. (While the rest show conflicts which have ended, and thus also supporting my argument.) Code16 (talk) 03:06, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Since Pakistan lost large chunk of area and never obtained it back, it's a defeat. If Pakistan had conquered it back, then it would be "Status quo ante bellum", or maybe Pakistani' victory. You would never know that, which is why you need to use reliable sources than your own opinion.

Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, and rest of the others still show there is a "result". Obviously it would've depended on Pakistan's own military operations, but because the results are different, that doesn't means that we need to remove results. If you still believe that there is on-going conflict, then you need to cite sources that would better claim that there was no ceasefire in 2003. — MapSGV (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• Actually if anything, the infobox should quote the 2003 ceasefire. That in effect is the current status quo. Mar4d (talk) 09:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

And I see it already did, before it was replaced by the horrible POV and OR edit. Mar4d (talk) 09:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

The new consensus will change it back to long standing Indian victory. You can scrap your WP:IDONTLIKEIT tendency since you have failed above to debate how your illogical opinion is any correct. — MapSGV (talk) 09:33, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

This is your problem MapSGV: "and never obtained it back, it's a defeat." how are you using the word "never" here? It's an ONGOING conflict! Forces are deployed on the glacier right now. There's artillery shelling, people die up there all the time. You're talking about it like the conflict is over, but it isn't. It's an active dispute. You're citing particular engagements a long time ago, ignoring the general conflict is still active and ongoing. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to you, but this is the final time I'm responding. Code16 (talk) 14:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Then we need to think that why so many sources completely contradict that analysis of yours. When it was the last time that India and Pakistan fought over it? MapSGV (talk) 15:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Code16, you won't be taken seriously if you can't be bothered to put in the effort to back up your rather tall claims with reliable sources, no matter how many times you repeat yourself. —MBL 10:37, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• See below:

There is an ongoing conflict on glaciers themselves, the 'Siachen War', as well as various uneasy stand-offs along the Cease Fire Line. The latter was brokered by the United Nations following the first war between Pakistan and India in 1947–1948. The UN 'blue hats' have had one of their longest international duties policing the Line of Control. Even so, further wars broke out in 1971 and 1999 and countless skirmishes since Indian forces occupied Siachen Glacier in 1984. Pakistan followed suit, occupying ice immediately to the west, mainly on the Saltoro, Kondus and Baltoro Glaciers. Upwards of 250 military camps and bases are reported in the Karakoram, related to the Siachen conflict alone, many on or beside the glaciers. Estimates vary enormously but seem not less than USD $300 million per year for India and Pakistan close to $200 million – $0.5 billion in round figures. Possibly it is as high as a $1 billion, for a conflict with, fortunately, almost no fighting, which would be much more costly. Deaths, however, are on the order of 8,000, more than 80% said to be from accidents, avalanches, altitude sickness, frostbite and other non-warfare problems.

As per another source, the Siachen conflict is regarded by many amongst India's political and military circles as a "diplomatic and military disaster". Mar4d (talk) 12:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

One of my source (Conflict and peacemaking in South Asia, p. 247, P. Sahadevan) said:-

"Another hard-line position is that India must not withdraw from Siachen because it represents a major military victory for India. India won the race for the glacier, and now controls the commanding heights on the Saltoro range. Over the last 13 years, Pakistan has tried innumerable times to displace the Indian forces, and has always had to withdraw with severe casualties. India has to do nothing but sit tight and periodically repel a Pakistani assault."

Another source (Regional Economic Integration in South Asia: Trapped in Conflict?, Amita Batra, p. 76, Routledge) said:-

"India and Pakistan have fought intermittently since 1984 when India, during the 'operation meghdoot', successfully wrested control of the glacier from Pakistan, forcing it to retreat. A ceasefire went into effect in 2003. Both countries maintain permanent military presence in the region at the height of about 6,000 mts, making Siachen the highest battleground on earth."

That means you still don't have a reason to ignore the Indian victory. — MapSGV (talk) 12:54, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Going in circles again. 1984 operation ≠ current conflict. And you do realise the self-explanatory ceasefire line is contradicting you. Mar4d (talk) 13:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Megdoot operation was only 1984, while the overall conflict's ceasefire occurred in 2003. — MapSGV (talk) 13:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Precisely, and your contradictions continue. There was indeed a ceasefire. And there lies the glaring fallacy of you removing ceasefire from the infobox. Mar4d (talk) 13:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Such ceasefire occurred but Indian territory expanded which described as victory for India. You got it now? — MapSGV (talk) 13:43, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• Let's take the case of Point 13620, so named because of its height in feet, a mountain peak in the Kargil area, which dominates Kargil town and the Shingo River valley. When the ceasefire was declared on 1 January 1949, Point 13620 was on the Pakistani side of the ceasefire line. It was captured by the Indian Army twice in 1965; once before and once during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965, and both times it was returned to Pakistan. It was again captured, along with the entire ridge, by the Indian Army in the 1971 War. This time, it was retained. Thus, we can say that this battle ended with a Indian victory since it came back to India. But, it would make no sense to say that it did not and is still 'ongoing'.

In the case of the Siachen, too, the end result was that India seized all of the Siachen Glacier, its tributary glaciers, and all the main passes and heights of the Saltaro Ridge, including Sia La, Bilafond La and Gyong La. Pakistani troops, on the other hand are nowhere near the Siachen glacier; its troops controls the western slopes of the Saltoro ridge, far away from the glacier and at much lower altitudes.

Following India's seizure of the Siachen Glacier, the extension of the ceasefire line from Point NJ 9842 to Indira Col in the north came to be known as the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL).

The Hewitt source is referring to the ongoing talks and the Indian and Pakistani military presence in that area, which stems from the Indian insistence for the authentication and the demarcation of the AGPL, the current ground position in that area, on maps, and Pakistan's unwillingness to do so because that would mean acknowledging Indian gains along the glacier and accepting the AGPL, thus admitting to its people that they're nowhere near the glacier, and not about the military conflict which ended with the ceasefire in 2003 (it's what the reliable sources say). Here's an relevant excerpt from this BBC article that corroborates what I'm saying, "On 13 April 1984, Indian troops snatched control of the Siachen glacier in northern Kashmir, narrowly beating Pakistan. Thirty years later, the two sides remain locked in a stand-off..."

When the Hewitt source says "further wars broke out in 1971 and 1999 and countless skirmishes since Indian forces occupied Siachen Glacier in 1984", it is referring to the "countless" failed attempts made by the Pakistani Army till 2003 to capture Indian posts; each time they were beaten back. India, in fact further expanded its territory by occupying Quaid-e-Azam Post in 1987 (now renamed Bana Top after Naib Subedar Bana Singh who captured it), Point 5770 in 1999 (now renamed Naveed Top after Major Naveed Singh Cheema who captured it), and so on.

• Here's another relevant excerpt from the BBC article:

  A Pakistani counter-attack led by a Brig Gen Pervez Musharraf a few years later was one of several that failed to dislodge the Indians. Since a ceasefire deal in 2003, the Pakistanis have given up trying.

• From this Times of India article:

  Another view is that this is India’s single biggest military victory over Pakistan since the 1971 war, and it must be used to extract an appropriate bargain from Pakistan when peace talks are initiated again. It must not be squandered away like the gains of the 1971 war. Remember, over 90,000 Pakistani prisoners of war were handed over for nothing but false reassurances from Zulfikar Ali Bhutto!

• From this Business Standard article:

  Shut out even from a view of the Siachen Glacier, Pakistani troops suffer a severe tactical disadvantage all along the 109-kilometre-long Actual Ground Position Line, as the frontline in that sector is called.

We go by what the reliable sources say; if the reliable sources say that India won this conflict, then this article should say the same as well. That 'Pakistan disputes the territory' is no basis to omit the "result". —MBL 13:18, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Kenneth Hewitt (12 September 2013). Glaciers of the Karakoram Himalaya: Glacial Environments, Processes, Hazards and Resources. Springer Science & Business Media. pp. 347–. ISBN 978-94-007-6311-1.
2. Jayanta Kumar Ray (2007). Aspects of India's International Relations, 1700 to 2000: South Asia and the World. Pearson Education India. pp. 251–. ISBN 978-81-317-0834-7.
3. Chowdhury, Srinjoy (2000). Despatches from Kargil. Penguin Books. p. 30. ISBN 9780140295924.
4. Bammi, Y. M. (2002). Kargil 1999, impregnable conquered. Gorkha Publishers. p. 94. ISBN 9788175253520.
5. ^ Mehta, Ashok K. (13 July 2004). "Point 5353 still in Pakistan's possession India's Kargil agenda is incomplete". The Tribune. Retrieved 24 February 2018.
6. Singh, Ranbir (2005). Major Defence Operations Since 1947. Prabhat Prakashan. p. 98. ISBN 9788188322671.
7. Gokhale, Nitin A (2016). 1965 Turning the Tide. Bloomsbury Publishing. pp. 65–67. ISBN 9789386141217.
8. ^ Singh, Amarinder (2001). A Ridge Too Far: War in the Kargil Heights 1999. Motibagh Palace. p. 26. ISBN 9788193107416.
9. Athale, Anil (16 June 2005). "Why Siachen matters". Rediff.com. Retrieved 24 February 2018.
10. ^ Gokhale, Nitin A (2015). Beyond NJ 9842: The SIACHEN Saga. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 364. ISBN 9789384052263.
11. Shukla, Ajai. "846 Indian soldiers have died in Siachen since 1984". 28 August 2012: Business Standard. Retrieved 24 February 2018.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
12. The 1949 Karachi Agreement described the ceasefire line beyond NJ9842 (Saltoro Ridge and beyond) to be "running Northwards to the glaciers".
13. Malik, V. P. (2010). Kargil from Surprise to Victory (paperback ed.). HarperCollins Publishers India. p. 53. ISBN 9789350293133.
14. Malik pp. 206–208

• @RegentsPark: there is consensus or policy based argument to add Indian victory. Can we include it now? — MapSGV (talk) 13:55, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Really?—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡   14:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

• MapSGV, we're going to need a clear sign that there is consensus. Something like "There is consensus that the Result entry in the infobox should say ....." and then a bunch of supports below that. --regentspark (comment) 14:30, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

I am going to chip into this discussion. As far as I can see it, this article is about the military conflict/war for that territory, which ended with the ceasefire in 2003. That there is a dispute over the territory, which will probably last forever, has been a diplomatic issue for the last 15 years since the ceasefire, not a military one. If there have been any sporadic skirmishes, although I haven't seen source to confirm this, that again wouldn't mean that there is an active military conflict. If we would go by the fact that there are troops confronting each-other on the line in the Siachen, then by that logic the Korean war is still ongoing. Also, that would be OR. So, if there is anything that needs to be written in the infobox it should go into the result parameter, not status. Finally, I would like to say that I agree with the above mentioned arguments by MapSGV, MBL, Kautilya3, Capitals00 and D4iNa4. If there are reliable sources that say India won, then India won. EkoGraf (talk) 09:51, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Clearly the sources support the fact that India won this war and there has been no reason or contrary source provided to this day that would state anything like "No India didn't won, it's impossible to win this war by anyone", like a couple of users have attempted to argue. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Also see above, there was no scarcity of reliable sources supporting the results. I am also yet to observe if any sources support contradictory and if they do then only we could be omitting results but so far they don't. Capitals00 (talk) 16:20, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

And for the record, since the ceasefire there have been no skirmishes along the Actual Ground Position Line, unlike the India–Pakistan border and Line of Control, where skirmishes from both sides occur all the time. To quote one more time from the BBC article, "A Pakistani counter-attack led by a Brig Gen Pervez Musharraf a few years later was one of several that failed to dislodge the Indians. Since a ceasefire deal in 2003, the Pakistanis have given up trying." This is equivalent to saying that the Pakistan army admitted defeat. MBlaze Lightning 16:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

• EkoGraf: You are misinterpreting the status, and venturing into WP:OR unfortunately. For a conflict to be considered closed, it has to considered resolved, which this isn't - in fact, far from it. The fact that there is a ceasefire means exactly that - that there is a ceasefire. It does not signal an end to the conflict, nor is there the slightest notion that the Siachen issue is over. Nor does it negate the armed presence. Mar4d (talk) 02:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Mar4d, I am not venturing into OR at all. If sources support that this conflict resulted in an Indian victory then that's that. Also, I have not seen any sources whatsoever that the Siachen conflict is ongoing. I acknowledge that there is a Siachen issue as you said. But a diplomatic row over territory and a full-blown military conflict are two different things. Also, an armed presence does not make a conflict ongoing (Korea example I mentioned), especially if they are not engaging in any hostilities. In any case, unless you can provide sources that confirm that there is an actual ongoing military conflict, everything else is unsourced OR as you have been warned by others as well. I have nothing further to add since MapSGV, MBL, Kautilya3, Capitals00 and D4iNa4 have already made sound arguments, which they re-iterated now. As I see it, except for one or two opposing editors, there is almost unanimous approval to close this article and insert a result that is based on the available sources. EkoGraf (talk) 14:10, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

PS I would not have any problem that it be inserted in the results section as a sub-result that Pakistan continues to dispute the territory. EkoGraf (talk) 14:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Given the consensus here to include the Indian victory in the infobox, I went ahead and did the needful. MBlaze Lightning 15:26, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is the right thing to do at this stage. The opponents should either provide sources for any ongoing military conflict, or use WP:dispute resolution if they believe they have a valid case. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Guys, please lets not claim that there's a consensus when there isn't. It's a self-defeating argument that the source you cited to mark the conflict as "closed" says "ceasefire comes into being". A conflict which resulted in a ceasefire isn't closed.

• This is how Indian writers are viewing the conflict as late as 13 Apr 2018:

  While it is well known that the dispute has refused to die down despite a dozen rounds of failed negotiations, recently observed developments from the Chinese side in the north of Siachen once again give India an additional reason to hold the world’s highest battlefield. More than three decades into the conflict, a parallel debate had raged on calling upon the respective armies to withdraw from the uninhabitable region but as the signs of Chinese presence grow in High Asia’s permafrost horizon, Siachen has once again begun to be viewed from two-front conflict scenario, this time from practical perspectives.

  Clearly pointing put that the area can erupt anytime especially when factoring in the Chinese advancements in and around the area.
• It also doesn't come as a surprise that, as late as 2017, the Indian intelligentsia itself have been proudly presenting their 'victory' in Siachen during academic talks which were self-evidently titled as ‘Siachen - the ongoing conflict’ (held during a Military Literature Festival in Chandigarh).

The above states the official position of Indian govt on the Siachen conflict, that it is still ongoing. Any suggestion to the contrary is mere POV pushing.—TripWire 09:29, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Misrepresenting Indian position when you believe it will help you pushing your POV, while rejecting all sources is not going to help you. You are of the belief that "No one cares if India accepts what is published in indept sources or not. Just like no one cares if Pakistan accepts the Indian or others POV on Siachen. The issue here is of how secondary publishers saw Siachen", so why you are engaging in this disruption now? You have issues with WP:CIR and WP:IDHT and that's the only issue we have here now since your first comment here when you were calling reliable academic sources a WP:FAKE. Such issues will be better resolved at any other noticeboard, not here. Wars end up with ceasefire, that's not something new. Capitals00 (talk) 11:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Secondary sources, yep that's what I said, but unfortunately you refused to listen what I said. WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR is what you are trying to do here. Classic case of WP:IDHT. Cheery-picking quotes, mixing them with WP:OR and spicing the end result with WP:SYNTHESIS wont do it. Wars end up with borders being redrawn not by demarcating cease-fire lines, Actual Ground Position Line or Line of Actual Control.—TripWire 12:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

How that is the case? You said you want to hear what secondary sources say and you have been told, now it is being followed by your typical WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior and repeating same boring refuted arguments. There is a great support for the inclusion of the result, which is backed by so many high quality reliable sources. You have also realized there is no argument against that. Most of the wars and conflict have ended with the ceasefire. The Russo-Georgian War, Gulf War and the Six-Day War, just to name a few examples. Not to mention, the India-Pakistan wars of 1947-48, 1965, 1971 and Kargil, all ended with the ceasefire too. As others have said many times, unless you can provide reliable sources to prove that there is an actual ongoing military conflict or that Pakistan won this conflict, then only we need to rethink. Capitals00 (talk) 12:10, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

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