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::Quoth BostonMA: ::Quoth BostonMA:
If a fact is notable, then there should exist references to it in independent literature, such as :::If a fact is notable, then there should exist references to it in independent literature, such as newspapers, magazines, etc, and fact tags should be replaced by citations to such sources per WP:V.
⚫ ::::"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
newspapers, magazines, etc, and fact tags should be replaced by citations to such sources per WP:V.
⚫ "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for
fact-checking and accuracy."
::OK, may I give you an analogy where I think one's own website could be a reasonable source? ::OK, may I give you an analogy where I think one's own website could be a reasonable source?
::I'm a Wiccan in the ] Tradition. It's a moderately-large Trad, as these things go, with over a hundred verified members at last count (and in the Neo-Pagan community, that's pretty good, as is our longevity, given that the Trad was founded in the early 1970s). However, an article about one of our members, who might be notable for other reasons, might make reference to something about her that was only verifiable on the Tradition's web page. Should I, as creator/editor of the article ''not'' put the link up in response to a <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki>? Remember, we're talking about some moderately big fish in a fairly ] here. ::I'm a Wiccan in the ] Tradition. It's a moderately-large Trad, as these things go, with over a hundred verified members at last count (and in the Neo-Pagan community, that's pretty good, as is our longevity, given that the Trad was founded in the early 1970s). However, an article about one of our members, who might be notable for other reasons, might make reference to something about her that was only verifiable on the Tradition's web page. Should I, as creator/editor of the article ''not'' put the link up in response to a <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki>? Remember, we're talking about some moderately big fish in a fairly ] here.
::Please take this as a civil inquiry; I'm not trying to be combative here. ::Please take this as a civil inquiry; I'm not trying to be combative here.
::] 16:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC) ::] 16:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Hi, I take your comment as a civil inquiry. Please read ].
::::"Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and ] are largely not acceptable as sources."
:::There is an exception:
::::"Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher '''in a relevant field''' or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so."
:::However the exception still requires previous publication by a third party publisher. I hope this helps to explain the policy. --] <font color = "blue"><sup>]</sup></font> 16:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


== ] == == ] ==

Revision as of 16:19, 26 October 2006

I, Natalinasmpf hereby award you the Exceptional Newcomer award for being amazingly insightful, disinterested in heated arguments and amazing impartiality in a traditional minefield of POV while showing exceptional implementation of Misplaced Pages policy. Elle vécut heureusement toujours dorénavant (Be eudaimonic!) 16:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Archives

Misplaced Pages Bill of Rights, etc

First of all, I want to thank you for your comments in various disputes in which I have been involved here recently. I should have responded more quickly, but I wanted to couple my thanks to my response to your request for input on the proposed "Bill of Rights." My response (which has ended up being a full-length, extensive and extensively revised draft proposal) took much longer than I had anticipated to complete. I'm placing the draft on the talk page of the "Bill of Rights"/User prerogatives proposal; I hope you find it useful in continuing/reopening the discussion. If you think another location would be more suitable, please feel free to move it wherever you see fit. Best, Monicasdude 22:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that; it looks like I lost some text cutting and pasting. I think I've fixed it now. Monicasdude 22:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


What is vandalism

That is not vandalism, it is a content dispute, and it will be solved as soon as you present a reliable source to back up the claims you keep re-adding. --Irishpunktom\ 14:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism is edits which are not made in good faith with the intent of improving the encyclopedia. I showed you the existing references, and I told you that I could provide many more if you had doubts. Among the references I provided are . You deleted with the comment "no reliable source added". I can no longer assume that your deletions are in good faith, but are perhaps WP:Point. --BostonMA 14:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
No, Vandalism is: any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to negatively impact the encyclopedia. Now, the new scientist article was written prior to the event, and is an estimate of who might attend, and Karl Grobl is neither reliable, nor is his reporting on what happened, rather what may happen in the future "By the time the 2001 Kumbh Mela ends on February 21st, approximately 70 million saints, sinners, Sadhus, faith healers, preachers, gurus, charlatans and devotees from across India and the world will have participated in perhaps the single most colossal gathering of humanity since the dawn of time."--Irishpunktom\ 14:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Pardon my not quoting the vandalism policy to your liking. Do you seriously doubt the accuracy of the statement or that I can provide reliable sources? If not, then I believe that your changes are "a deliberate attempt to negatively impact the encyclopedia." Please cease. The purpose apparently being WP:Point, perhaps the point being "if you don't jump through the hoops I set up for you, I will delete material I do not doubt is correct." I'm sorry, I don't see such actions as a good faith content dispute. --BostonMA 14:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, welcome to the club of Editors Who Fight Irishpunktom's Lack of Good Faith Editing (EWFILGFE). ;-) Netscott 15:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The point is, there is a difference between vadalism and a Content Dispute! We are having a dispute over the content of an article. It is not vandalism, now, the source you have added quotes figures of 30 and 80 , significantly less than what you are using it as a reference for. --Irishpunktom\ 15:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

You keep deleting that it is the largest religious gathering on earth. Do you dispute this? Estimates of the crowd size vary, as estimates in that range necessarily must. If you would like to say that the crowd was estimated to be such and such, that is fine. Or, if you would like to say that estimates of the number of people range from x to y, that is also fine. Deleting the fact that it is the largest religious gather on earth, (according to some, the largest gathering on earth of any type), well that is not fine. That fact is well documented by reputable sources, and deleting it, unless you sincerely believe that it may be in error, is, I'm afraid vandalism. Don't do it. --BostonMA 15:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

  • We're about five or six in the club (at least, there are probably others who are silent members). Shall I include you in our roster? LOL! Netscott 15:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't care about that, altough it being in bold is against policy, but you kept reverting it back in. You keep adding this figure of seventy million, but that was added as specultion prior to the event. You allowed it to be viewed as tough only hindus were present, despite a cited BBC article reporting on India using the event to attract (non-Hindu) tourists. Your article reports as tough these "70 million" people were all present at the one time, despite each of the articles cited referring to it being an event which lasts over one month. Again, this is a content dispute, and the one not assuming good faith here, really, is you. --Irishpunktom\ 15:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, I am not assuming good faith. I came to the conclusion that you were not acting in good faith. If you would like me to assume good faith again, please answer me these questions:

  • Do you doubt that this was the largest religious gathering in the world?
  • Do you doubt that being the largest religious gathering in the world is a notable fact that is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages?
  • Do you doubt that Misplaced Pages would be negatively impacted if this information is removed?

As for your other comments, it is not "my" article. It is Misplaced Pages's article and it was written by many editors, most of them not myself. If you would like to have a genuine discussion about shortcomings that may appear in the article, you are welcome to start such a discussion, although I suggest that you begin in the article talk page and not here in my user talk page. --BostonMA 16:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

This is irrelevent, the claims you make and revert in, need to be sourced properly. Its not about opinion, its not even about truth, its about verifiabiity. --Irishpunktom\ 16:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not irrelevant. An essential difference between vandalism and a simple content dispute is the intent of the editor. --BostonMA 16:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Well then, assume good faith and deal solely with the issues surrounding the content dispute. --Irishpunktom\ 17:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I believe that you understand that it is a fact that Kumbh Mela has been the largest religious gathering in the world. I also believe that you understand that Misplaced Pages would be harmed by the removal of such facts. Putting these together, I believe that your removal of this fact amounted to vandalism. If you want me to assume good faith, you need to address these issues. You began this thread because I posted several test templates on your talk page. You are now asking me to treat your edits as a simple content dispute. There are undoubtedly genuine content issues worthy of discussion. However, I will not treat your edits solely as a content dispute, because I believe they constituted vandalism. If that bothers you, you may address the concerns I have expressed. --BostonMA 17:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)



Question about Indian planet names

I'm editing a section of the word planet in the English Misplaced Pages and was thinking of adding a brief mention of the Indian names for the planets and their origins. However I am a bit confused. I know there are many languages in India, but do they all use the same Navagraha-based names for the planets? Thank you for your help. Serendipodous 12:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply; yes that was helpful, but I was also wondering if what they denoted (ie, the gods) was the same, regardless of language, in much the same way that the countries of east Asia use the five Chinese elements to identify the planets, even if their own respective words for them may be different. And would that be true for Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and the other countries of the Indian subcontinent as well? Serendipodous 08:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


Akshaya Patra

Instead of renaming it, you may want to try a re-direct. It is not wrong to call it an NGO, but somehow it doesn't resemble typical Indian NGOs; let it remain. After some investigations, I have found that there is nothing common between ISKCON and them on paper. However, all the active board members are from ISKCON, Bangalore. --Gurubrahma 06:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


Re: Hindu Mathmeticians etc.

Hi! In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with having an article titled List of Jews that categorises people based on their profession. The same has been done at List of Christians and List of Hindus. In these articles, the focus is to highlight prominent people who are followers of the religion. Hence, a categorisation is required to assert their prominence. The sub listings can be justified per WP:SS. However, it is unnecessary to have such a classification via a cateogry. There are already categories for Hindus as well as for athletes. So a further classification as Hindu atheletes is unwarrented; and if need, can be accessed using the category intersection functions.
And yes, Kerala is a place that surprises me by its beauty even today, despite having lived here all my life. I havent been to Brahmagiri though. Will try to, now that you recommended it. Regards-- thunderboltz 15:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologise for the delay. I have decided not to push in the cfd debate any further, as I'm not interested in sacrificing my integrity, and be branded as a pseudo-secularist by certain users. I do, however, owe you a reply. Listings can become very long like this one. We can make it more compact and readable by creating daughter articles and linking to them from the original article. Something similar to summary style procedure. This is as opposed to a category, which is not in the article namespace, and the content is more or less unencyclopedic when presented as such. See Misplaced Pages:Categories, lists, and series boxes for the advantages of a list over a category.-- thunderboltz 05:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
No, that is absolutely fine. But as a last attack, I must, of course remind you...Oh never mind! I keep forgetting my decision to quit this cfd. Cheers and best regards :-) -- thunderboltz 01:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

CfD =

For the record, I am about to propose many "lists of Jews" (and especially "categories of Jews") for deletion. You are welcome to vote to delete them (or propose some more lists for deletion!). These lists and categories have been extremely controversial in the past. Bellbird 14:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

New anon user

Oh, I didn't know that you were online still. You weren't harsh, you were to the point. In fact, you have oodles of patience - I was always impressed by your mediation efforts. Thanks a ton for making WP a better place. Do keep an eye on the user though. --Gurubrahma 13:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Nicole

Indef. Thanks for letting me know. Cheers -- Samir धर्म 14:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Kaveri

How about now? User:Leotolstoy


Welcome to VandalProof!

Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, BostonMA! You have now been added to the list of authorized users, so if you haven't already, simply download and install VandalProof from our main page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or any other moderator, or you can post a message on the discussion page. Computerjoe's talk 15:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)



Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 13

You to me: Hi Bhadani, could you semi-protect this page, as well as September 12, and 10. If that is not possible I understand. However, there is a sockpuppet who has voted multiple times, was blocked, and he keeps removing the notices that he is a sockpuppet, by using what I strongly suspect are new sockpuppet accounts. Your help is greatly appreciated. --BostonMA 02:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

My response:These pages are highly visible pages, and no nonsense may continue unnoticed long by others. In case, some one is really a sockpuppet, he/shall gets exposed sooner than later. I think protecting pages would serve no purpose. If some one is removing comments, he shall be treated as a vandal. Please do not worry much. --Bhadani 02:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)



In the Skin of a Lion

Thanks for the note. I feel a bit bad - didn't want to bite a newbie. I really should have checked. Victoriagirl 02:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, and thanks for your recent note. I, too, am beginning to wonder whether things aren't quite as they seem - but will assume good faith. Since your post, I've received communication from 572766 , to which I've responded . I must say, my sympathy has decreased after investigating the user's first three posts , , . Victoriagirl 16:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I've again heard from 572766 . As the motivation for the post seems to be an edit you yourself made (one I support fully), I thought you should know. I have already responded. Victoriagirl 02:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)



Right to a voice

Sorry to bother you, but you are a member of AIW and I have to appeal to you for help. Deletionists are trying disenfranchise those of us who believe that all established and verifiable secondary schools are significant enough to be kept or at least merged. If you agree that it is not an "aburd" belief to hold, please give your opinion here: Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2006_September_22#Finger_Lakes_Christian_School Kappa 22:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Converting units

Hi Bhadani, I have been working on Kaveri river to get some facts and figures into the article about usage of the river. One of the issues that I face is that the many references use differing units, millions of acre-feet, mega-liters per day, cubic feet per hour etc. I was wondering whether it is appropriate to convert these to a single common unit for the benefit of the reader? Have you come across this issue before? What are your thoughts? --BostonMA 14:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I too have come across such problems, and sometimes used whatever figures I could get conveniently. However, this guidance is of help: *http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indian_districts#Basic_India_conventions --Bhadani 15:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

In the Skin of a Lion *2

U r rite Boston... there is a battle goin on... i am arrogant and don't give up that easily. Here is my gmail address: abhinav.kanaya@gmail.com . I want to discuss the editing of this lady. Plzz write to me soon. As long as she proves that my info on that topic is all irrelevant, i will not back down! ... thnx 

                       Abhinav ;-0


Time Format

How do we get IST time in place of UTC(on the edit timestamps)...? Sorry I didn't know where to ask, so I'm posting this here.

Cheers,

Amogh 06:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Tippu and Rockets

Please do.Thanks.Hkelkar 11:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
As long as it satisfies WP:Reliable Sources it is fine I think. Also, you might want to put the article in your watchlist and monitor it. I have seen numerous cases of OR and POV that I have marked down, but users with nationalistic biases have been vandalizing it and I can;t keep them all at bay. If you could participate in some of the issues that I have raised on the talk page and monitor the article for vandalism etc then I would be extremely grateful. Please do consider doing so as it would mean a lot to me to have this article achieve a modicum of credibility. Thank you very much.Hkelkar 11:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:

Some infoboxes have a size column, I dont know how to work it/make it on my temple infobox.Bakaman Bakatalk 14:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Offset

(moved from User page) Although I have changed the setting here(see image), it still isn't displaying the correct time settings. Thanks anyway.

http://i10.tinypic.com/4htlzb4.jpg

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amogh gulwady (talk • contribs) . at 12:21, 24 September 2006 to user page




In The Skin Of A Lion * 3

HEYYY BOstonn.. check it out now.... tell me if if i am improving.. thnx

572766 21:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad clarification

Yeah, I re-read what I wrote and realized that what I wrote could be taken in so many horrible ways, none of which I intended. There's definitely a reason that Muslim contributors might find the use of the "Western" A.D. on an article on their most revered prophet, and I think that was relevant to the discussion, but there were clearly non-Muslim participants in the discussion who also preferred C.E. I realized that what I wrote might be seen to imply some sort of nefarious motives on the part of our Muslim contributors, which was far from my intention. Captainktainer * Talk 05:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Kaveri River

OK. --Bhadani 22:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Mattisse

Yeah, that's one of the things Mattisse's sockpuppets do: duplicate an article and then change it. Like take a biography and repost it with the first name changed. Or take a musician and rewrite the article under another name as if they were a wrestler. Weird stuff like that. Probably better to bring it up on WP:AN/I rather than do a formal report, she gets belligerent. —Hanuman Das 04:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

take the next q

Hi, Plz take the next question... --hydkat 11:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Notice board

Indian admin noticeboard

I have listed it on the Indian deletion sorting page. I would like all editors to comment on it, not just administrators. Please comment whether you feel there is a need for it or not. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 01:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Mohammed deletion

Please understand, I mean this in the most respectful way, and don't mean to pick a fight. But how can you remove a picture of Mohammed from his article because "it might be considered offensive", but then have this userbox on your main page:

This user is a member of Wikipedians against censorship.

-Patstuart 23:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thank your for your comment. I do not believe in removing subject matter merely because it is offensive to some. However, I fail to see how an image of Mohammed, regarding which image we know almost nothing, contributes to the article. In fact, it may very well be misleading, in that if this is one of the few images that can be produced by Muslims, including it in the article may give an erroneous impression regarding how common such images are. Be that as it may, I don't believe in being offensive merely for the sake of being offensive. What is the purpose of the image? It is hard for me not to wonder whether the purpose is really to serve Misplaced Pages. I hope this helps to explain. Sincerely, --BostonMA 00:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for writing back. It does clear things up, though I do disagree. I find it awfully convenient that Mohammed has no pictures of him to enhance the article, whereas other religious/historical figures of unknown characature do have them. An image, even if it's historically not accurate, is often a way to visualize a historical or religious figure. Take my count on the following articles; we know what none of these people look like:
I hope, then, you can understand my frustration, as I feel Misplaced Pages is being censured. Does have a picture on penis really help either (who doesn't know what they look like?). But if it were removed, it would immediately be called censorship. Please understand I am not attacking you, I am just a little frustrated, as I think there's a double standard. -Patstuart 00:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

This is yours

This user was the winner of Round 12 of the India Quiz.

Congrats! :-D -- Longhairandabeard 22:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

(text here is to fix formatting of following section)


PINQ

Hi, thanks for asking me to inaugurate the next round. I was very tied up this week and couldn't do it. Thanks once again for the nice gesture, --Gurubrahma 07:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


Re:Peace of mind

Hi Bhadani, I notice that your recent edits seem to indicate some distress. I wish for your peace of mind. BostonMA on 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I thank you. It is not distress. It is sadness that despite a lot of collective efforts, we are unable to deliver the results. Anyway, man proposes and God disposes! --Bhadani 16:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Navaratri in Chennai was fine. Now Diwali is coming. Happy Diwali. --Bhadani 17:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Islam in India

The most recent census of India was performed in 2001 Indian Census - Muslims. According to it's results Muslim constituted 138,188,240 or 13.4% of the population in 2001. The figures in Islam by country are incorrect and they quote unreliable sources and webpages. My changes to that page has been reverted many times. Most people quote India's state Uttar Pradesh percentage where Muslim constitute 18.5% of the population. According to Demographics of India, India's population is 1.125 billion in 2006 , so 13.4% would be 150,321,200. While Pakistan population of 165,800,000 million in 2006 is 97% Muslim and is 160,826,000. Please provide reliable references to back your figures. Siddiqui 14:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad pics

Sure, always open for discussion. Best, The Hungry Hun 09:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Basically, you're right: I agreed to discuss the topic, yet didn't deliver any input so far, not even as an answer to the questions you raised - sorry for that, I simply lacked the time so far and could only take quick glances at the article & re-insert the pic when deleted.
Tomorrow, I'll have much more spare time and cover my points extensively; I believe that you can see from the article's talk page that I'm not afraid of lengthy discussions (a good part of it is already archived, though).
However, I beg to differ on the modus operandi: There was a somewhat stable article version with pictures. Plus, not a single objection has been raised in the last weeks beyond a general rejection of images in general. Hence I'll regard further deletions still as vandalism and will revert them. Please understand this approach of mine.
I propose having the discussion entirely on my talk page for the sake of a coherent thread. If you agree, I kindly suggest that put the page on your watchlist.
Best, The Hungry Hun 23:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I generally concur with the Hun. I'll see how the discussion develops but like he says, there has been absolutely no concrete objection raised, based on WP policies, why the image should be removed, other than a general iconoclasm based on a particular interpretation of a religion not shared by the majority of WP users. I believe removal would be outrageous- the image is souced and is a historical relic (made by, it should be noted, Muslims). Since those objecting to the image maintain that Islam objects to images of all of its prophets, are we to now remove images from Jesus, Abraham, etc.? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
From your latest message, I am not sure our views are at all reconcilable. In my opinion the image is neither offensive nor obscene; it was created by people who revered and honored Muhammad. The only reason it is "offensive" is because there are some people who object to all images of Muhammad, and by extension images of religious figures in general. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I see no contradiction between including the image and the policy you cite. My interpretation is that image must be both subjectively and objectively offensive and this falls far short of that standard. You also seem to maintain that while these images should not be included in the Muhammad article, they might be appropriate for a separate article on images of Muhammad. I encourage you to establish such an article and see if the attempts at censorship are any less frequent there. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Units in Kaveri River article

Hi Boston, Thanks for the note. Good that you brought it up. Shall we continue the discussion in article's talk page itself? Let me move the current discussion to the article's talk page. Thank you. - KNM 02:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I's so sawwy massa! I's neva' goin' ta vanduhlize agin suh!


Re: Thanks for work on India articles

Thank you so much for your message. I don't mind at all if you correct my mistakes, as I am constatnly confused by many things in the India articles, only one of which is the multiple spellings of place names. (I understand why this situation exists but not how to deal with it.) In fact, if I could ask you questions now and then, I would be appreciative. I have several confused spelling situations going on right now. Maybe I could ask you what to do about them without getting into trouble -- which happened the last time I suggested a merge in a confused spelling situation.

Is there a standard way of naming places? I just noticed that Wayanad Wildlife Sanctuary has been redirected to Muthanga. Maybe that is a nearby place. I wanted to write more about the sanctuary but I wish it were called by its real name, not Muthanga.

Other issues, like what to capitalize is unclear because links won't work unless the capitalization is consistent -- District vs district, Temple vs temple, River vs river etc. Often a district's headquarters is the same name as the district. Sometimes I can't tell whether the reference is to the city or the district.

Anyway, thanks again and any suggestions and explanations from you would be hugely appreciated. Mattisse(talk) 22:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the searching tips! I didn't know about most of them. Another question: Is Wayanad District a rather neglected area, information-wise? I have been searching for info on hydroelectric projects and rivers there and can't find out hardly anything -- even though rivers and everything else in Kerala is generally well covered. I can't even figure out what river the Banasura Sagar Dam is on. Maybe the Kabrini. Mattisse(talk) 14:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! That greatly helps about the river. I understand your feelings about places becoming popularized. (It has happened to me in three different wonderful places on this earth, places I cannot even go back and visit as it is too painful now.) I'm hoping my small little articles will not have such impact. Mattisse(talk) 16:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it be O.K. for me to put the elephant picture on the Kalpetta article, since you took the picture on the way to Kalpetta? Mattisse(talk) 19:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad pic

Hi BostonMA, hv gone through the arguments and discussions on the talk page of BrianGotts. My first feeling after reading it was that "I wouldn't have any objection to the image being placed on Depictions of Muhammad, just as I have no objection to Piss Christ or Ecce Homo being placed in the relevant articles, and not that of Jesus." I later read the discussion on Hun's talkpage and found that your position is also the same. Also, I believe you have done everything in your power and control to keep the duscussion going, and to take the issue towards resolution. You have answered all the questions put to you clearly, despite receiving only ambiguous answers from the other side. Based on my understanding of the discussion, I fully support your position; however, I do not know about the intensity and frequency of the reversions. Not withstanding that, I'd still feel that you've done what it takes and quoted the appropriate sections of appropriate guidelines to take the discussion further. You've been calm and civil. That's all that matters. --Gurubrahma 05:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Elephant picture

I wish you would promote your own pictures, at least to me, as I have a hard time finding relevant pictures of India on Wiki Commons, usually only finding them by accident! As for the elephant picture, I can label it as "Countryside near Kalpetta" or something similar, as long as you do not think it would give a false impression. Mattisse(talk) 19:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the elephant picture to Kalpetta and unexpectedly found a street scene photo to add also. See what you think, and if you think it represents Kalpetta. Feel free to change or adjust as you see fit. Mattisse(talk) 16:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


Barnstar

A Barnstar! A Mediation Barnstar
A Barnstar awarded by Striver on 17 October 2006 to BostonMA for keeping his cool and staying on topic during a tough mediation on the Muhammad article talk page regarding the use of pictures on that article. Impressive and inspiring!

PS: I love your "Industrial Sabotage of Misplaced Pages?" section on the user page! --Striver 06:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure :) --Striver 22:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Maome

I think you are doing quite well without my help. But if you get stuck at any point, drop me a note. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Boston: I'm very cross at you! This dispute resolution you requested ---with my name on it--- is not what you represented. This dispute resolution process should focus on any and all images of Muhowmud, not just the 'Maome' image you mentioned in your request. I suggest (demand!) that you edit the request to include the real issue here: the real issue is that some of us think images of Mohowmud should be included in the Article and others think no imges should be allowed. Before I accuse you of engaging in subterfuge or clever, sly manipulativeness, please respond to this grievous afront to our intelligence and good faith.DocEss 16:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: using Redirects

Hesitant to rely on redirects as I know Admin (especially) and others hate them and think they cause confusion. One Admin told me there are 2 million useless redirect pages someone is going to have to clean up some day. There is also (or was) an anti-piping crusade going on for similar reasons i.e. confusion and complication. Mattisse(talk) 16:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA

Repeatedly removing sourced materials without consensus, as you have done in the Muhammad article, is tantamount to vandalism. I refer you also to this discussion. Your edits in Muhammad seem to be in sharp contrast to the principals you yourself assert therein.

I have engaged in no personal attacks on you. Calling an editor's edit what it is is not violative of NPA, as it is the action, not you, that is being called into question. Moreover, I find your attitude perplexing, in light of the fact that you devote a considerable portion of your own user page to an extended attack on another user, disguised as an attempt at diplomacy.

Please immediately cease your harrasment of me on my user page. Thank you. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 21:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

There was a consensus image in the article from August 2005 until the recent conflict. The image was changed without consensus, and repeatedly insisting that you have consensus does not make it so. Whether the personal attack was directed at me or not is irrelevant. Improper accusations of vandalism are disruptive to Misplaced Pages. --BostonMA 21:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your perplexity, statements such as "It figures that you should feel so strongly about my comment about "clueless Indians" since you are obviously one of them." are not civil. Therefore, I have an issue with the editor who made them. However, when another editor deletes an image that was inserted without consensus, and which does not have consensus, that is not vandalism. I hope that helps to clarify your perplexity. --BostonMA 21:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Your position is clear to me. I still regard it as inconsistent and flexible to suit your needs of the moment. Cheers, Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, I did not say there was consensus for keeping it. I said there was no consensus for removing it, and no one has yet articulated a reason consistent with a reasonable interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy why it should be removed. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Interesting how quickly "remove the one image but leave the other 'clearly relevant' one" becomes "let's remove all the images". Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I did not call for removing both images, but was willing to give support to the compromise proposal made by User:HighInBC. However, you will note that I encouraged User:HighInBC not to remove the other images . --BostonMA 13:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I didn't at any point say that YOU called for removing both images, but this campaign has emboldened those who would like to censor Misplaced Pages in its entirety and they have begun to move far beyond what minimum accomodation you intended to make. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
It had been always for removing each and every image showing Muhammad from Muhammad-article. It was BostonMA own point of view to remove just one and keep the other. --- ابراهيم 13:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the Barnstar!

I appreciate the Barnstar and also your concern. I do know that it is improper to throw around sockpuppet accusations with using CheckUser first. Mattisse(talk) 00:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm beyond understanding such links right now.

But it is true researching the various water projects, I have come across all sorts of strange things about water controversies and companies that come up with complicated "water projects" involving several states, rivers. dams, canals and power transfer od water.

In fact I wrote an article originally aimed at temple tanks, entitled Irrigation tank -- don't like the name but couldn't think of anything else. But the article quickly became more complicated as I saw the ancient water conserving methods contrasted with today's high-tech methods amd people/states caught in the middle.

Take a look at the article, if you wouldn't mind. I keep finding unconnected articles on water projects but all the pieces are not being put together. Maybe you know what is happening and can help out or guide me in the right direction. Truthfully, I'm still at the level of trying to get the rivers straight and figuring out what basins they flow into.

It's fascinating. Mattisse(talk) 01:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Its true, and it was my own stupid fault. I'm hoping this mediation will resolve the issue. Thanks for your concern though --Irishpunktom\ 11:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You were worried

Misplaced Pages Administers noticeboard/Incident#Puppetmaster Mattise repeatedly removing puppetmaster tag

Please read the actual incident so you will see that that I had done nothing wrong. There is no rule that you can't change your own user page.

What makes me feel the worst about the whole thing is that you had so little faith in me that you thought I was in danger. Mattisse(talk) 23:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, there you have it in the comments from the person who made the mistake below. He is referring to a comment I made in another section, namely:

When my user page was reverted: User:Mattisse‎; 18:53 . . contribs) (Revert to revision 73364465 dated 2006-09-02 07:33:12 by Netsnipe using popups) it was reverted to a point before the sockpuppet label was put on again, revealing personal information that I don't wish to be available for personal reasons and that I had removed long ago. So now I can't remove my own personal information that User:Ekajati chose to reveal. I was told that it was an administrator that was doing it (which I did not think an administrator would do without due process) so I did not believe that part. Nonetheless, what I want private is now there against my will and there is nothing I can do about it.

The comments from the guy who made the mistake are below on your page and refer to this statement which, apparently in his eyes, is a sin. Either you read the actual comments and believe what was said on the link I sent you, in which was the ultimate conclusion was that my user page was left to me to do with it what I want), or you believe the guy who admitted he made a mistake. No one likes to admit he made a mistake (although he does in that link I gave you - and also on my talk page to me). In any case, I get the drift of this now. I thank you for being the friend you were before. And I don't hold it against you for believing your friend and sticking by him. I do think you meant well. Mattisse(talk) 00:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks so much for responding -- it truly helps me think good about people again. No I didn't really think I was in danger. First, I wasn't doing anything against any rules. Second, the driving forces in the beginning were not administrators. In fact, those same people had been told to back off recently by adminstrators. Third, what awful thing could happen to me? The worse outcome was what happened -- that two non- administrators got into an edit war over my personal user page, and an administrator got sucked into it and did exactly the wrong thing - as was pointed out in the link I sent you. Now he may have done that out of sheer misunderstanding (which is what he states in the link I sent you) or he may have been sucked into this clique that insists that Timmy12 and I are the same person and have done so multiple times (I now know from looking at his page). I didn't know about the User:Timmy12 thing until yesterday and I was truly horrified.
I've been attacked so many times by this particular clique of persons who want to "own" certain articles, that I am (almost) used to it. Plus there are experienced administrators who have seen me through many of these episodes and will tactfully do the right thing in the end (I believe). Plus, if it means I have to sell my soul to these people and obey their unethical edicts amd back off and overlook the bad things they are doing to Misplaced Pages, then I will not do that and I will accept the consequences. My nature is such that I am driven to keep the standards of Misplaced Pages high.
My fault is that I am too blunt and don't have enough patience with the "bowing and scraping" that is required to get along with some of these people. There is some middle road there that I must work on in my own behavior. But in reality, there is nothing they can do to me, except freak me out emotionally -- which they have succeeded in doing previously but I am working on that side of myself now. Compared to previous times, I handled this latest attack well, so maybe I can believe I am improving. It has been a struggle.
Thanks for letting me express all this. I had decided to desert India entirely, but it would be a loss to me. I have been interested in other areas before and can find another area if necessry. There are some really bad people in the India area, unfortunately, along with mostly good, wonderful people. Mattisse(talk) 02:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:Advice for a friend

Honestly, I think Mattisse quite enjoyed the situation. He (i'm assuming here) started to talk to other people, just trying to attract attention to the whole situation when he himself said he reverted the edits because he had some private information on his user page. You basically summed up my motive behind protecting the user page. You can see by the protection comment I made, that I had only good intentions, and that I did not want someone to see Cyde's comments and immediately act upon it. Also, Cyde is probably one of the higher up admins, and I would assume he has a good deal of experience and seniority here. Nishkid64 00:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well it is true. Things could have been much worse had I not intervened. I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by "honest opinion" on your response, so I just told you what I thought of your comment. Nishkid64 00:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

About fire

You are right. Looking at the comments of User talk:Nishkid64 referenced in you last message to me on his discussion page , he says I have been enjoying the situation talking to other people. That must mean you, as the only other message I have sent regarding this was to another admin. Since you are definitely right that admins are like fire, lets not talk about this again. And thanks again so very much for being there. I truly appreciate it. Mattisse(talk) 12:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link!

rainwaterharvesing.org - I have never come across that particular page before and it is very useful. Also, their point of view is nice -- Any land anywhere can be used to harvest rainwater The fundamental reason: extend the fruits of the monsoon The basic principle: Catch water where it falls

I was starting to understand this as an ancient tradition of India in writing the Irrigation tank article (hate that name for it). Someone promised me a photo of a temple tank for it. Mattisse(talk) 03:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


Hope you don't mind

I added of photo of yours (Image:NearNannilam.jpg) to Distributary plus an explanation. Hope the explanation is correct. Feel to change or remove anything you want. Mattisse(talk) 13:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


Templates

I like making templates when I need to tell a certain amount of people the same thing, is there a correct way to do it. Let me know on my talk--Seadog.M.S 19:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Good call

➨ ЯEDVERS awards this Barnstar to BostonMA for tolerance, reasonableness and a commitment to WP:NPOV and dispute resolution that I envy and admire.
To BostonMA for a rational and thoughtful approach to resolution of disputes. Your ability to keep cool is admired -- Samir धर्म 01:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Good call on the talk page of that article! I've still nominated it for AfD, but I have reviewed my position on it quite considerably and am doing so for advice, not to make a point.

I'm very impressed with your WP:NPOV thinking, even if I don't agree with your final decisions, and I'm very impressed with your ability to immediately diffuse an edit war. I haven't looked at your contribs or the like, (and you may already be an admin) but would you consider being nominated for adminship? It seems from your temprement and ability that you are what Misplaced Pages needs and that you could use the tools. Let me know if you're interested/if I'm too late/too early/other.

Thanks... I've been a bit down on Misplaced Pages of late: you've helped pick me up! I'm off to bed now, somewhat happier! :o) ➨ ЯEDVERS 20:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Boston,

This is embarkedaxis. Mahound term was used by one or two peoples so it doesnt mean that it is his name's variant. And it is already there in Non-Muslim veiw of Muhammad. So there is no point to keep this word in variant. People are villify by many people but that doesnt mean it is his name variant. Everyone know the defination of variant. And 2ndly some people add this just because they hate him and wikipedia policy is neutral. So i want to keep this article away from skepticism, So that both muslims and non muslims would not be offended. I hope you will understand


Thanks you

Embarkedaxis

Happy Diwali

Happy diwali to u too, belated!--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

AfD

Hi Boston! The AfD is going well, do you think? I mean, not from a wikiprocess point of view per se - and there's clearly a "no consensus" close on the horizon - but from the depth of the discussion and the interesting points raised, I'm very happy with the light generated so far. And I'll be saying so to all the signed-in contributors as soon as it has ended.

But, for the immediate article, did any of the options others have given catch your eye as useful compromises? Would any of the options work if modified? Or is a no-consensus-keep the best option? The latter, alas, could lead to the article being repeatedly nominated (not by me, obviously) but we can be ready for that.

As I've said, I'm impressed by your talent for compromise and mediation (so much so, I'd really like you to reconsider about the adminship thing - you would seem to have need of the tools, but it's up to you and I can wait if you want), so, being better at such things than I am, what would you advise for the best option you and I could work on when the AfD has closed?

(And it can be torn up if someone has a blinder of an idea in the meantime)

(And "keep" is perfectly valid as a response, of course, so don't hold back)

Thanks! ➨ ЯEDVERS 19:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • And it's Diwali too! Assuming you are of south Asian heritage (the above messages suggest it!) then happy Diwali to you! (I never get these dates right... my best female Asian friend is Sikh and she's determined that others have the dates so totally wrong... although somehow she manages to make this a great excuse to party for the best part of three weeks. You've got to admit, that's cool... :o) ➨ ЯEDVERS 19:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

From Richwales re: VP problems

Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, I've been having this problem with VandalProof continuously for several weeks now — I have absolutely never been able to get it to accept my login ever — despite many, many attempts and requests for assistance — so I really don't think it's something that is ever going to clear up on its own. Richwales 22:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I've tried VP (unsuccessfully) on two very powerful PC's, so I don't think it's a CPU, RAM, or disk space issue. The error I consistently get is that my login attempt failed. It looks like it's reading the list of authorized users and doesn't find me there — but I've been assured several times that I am in the list, and my user name doesn't have any spaces (some people have had problems because of that, but that can't explain my problem). Richwales 22:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I, too, have tried re-logging in using the link in the yellow/orange "login failed" box. It says I successfully logged in — but right after that, it gives me the yellow/orange "login failed" box all over again, and all the tools and menus in VP are still greyed out. Richwales 23:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Gambling...

Sorry to say this, but I'm not a Hindu. I celebrate Diwali cuz of the crackers etc. So it's back to gambling for me. :-D Idleguy 04:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks and Belated wishes

Hi BostonMA, thanks for the Diwali greetings. I was away for most of last week. Hope you had a great Diwali yourself -- Lost 13:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Maome

I have not changed my position. REmoving the images to avoid "offense" has only emboldened those who would impose their religious norms on the entire project, as I predicted, and has served no encyclopedic purpose. I regard the recent actions taken in the Muhammad article as reprehensible and utterly indefensible. It is censorship of this nature that renders most of the Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages laughable parodies of encyclopedia entries. I have no wish to engage in mediation regarding the image, which I regard as a waste of time. Having limited time to devote to Misplaced Pages, and waning interest in the project due to incidents like this, I prefer to focus my efforts elsewhere. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 01:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


On the mediating: How long will it take AND will result applying on ALL censoring editors? Otherwise deal only help side who dont keep their deals or AT BEST a big waste of time. No deals unless IF you can tell me for sure, all must comply with what we agree AND will enforce with no mercy.Opiner 04:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I read it and it sound pretty useless. Wish it didnt but it does.Opiner 02:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

thanks!

When I started my second editor review, I had no idea how greatly helpful it would be to me. Here are people from across the world who I've never met or laid eyes upon, taking their personal time to think about me and offer me valuable criticism and advice. And the stuff I've learnt is more helpful in real life than just on Misplaced Pages. This is an experiment I will never forget. I thank you most sincerely for your kindness, for helping me be a better person. I am very much in your debt. Rama's arrow 15:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!

You are a wonderful person. No one bothered to actually check the edits. Thank you so much! Timmy12 00:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you, that was some hard work it is almost done now. Let me know what you think--Seadog 00:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Not spam links

The Starwood Festival is the most notable pagan event in the US. Any neo-pagan being a speaker or a performer at that festival is a significant event in their career and it deserves mention. Mattisse and her socks went around adding fact tags to every mention, which is why there are citations. Those are NOT commercial pages, but archives of past events. Are you anti-pagan? —Hanuman Das 01:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The Rolling Stones are a very notable rock group. However, if someone started putting links to an advert for a Rollings Stones concert in Misplaced Pages articles, I would delete those as well. The degree of notability of the artist or the event has nothing to do with the matter. Further, the pagan-ness or otherwise also has nothing to do with the matter. --BostonMA 01:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Hanuman Das, I question your assertion that "The Starwood Festival is the most notable pagan event in the US." It's a big one, but I'd point out that (a) it's not specifically Pagan, and (b) there are other similar events that are equally significant, including Rites of Spring, PSG, and Heartland.
OTOH, BostonMA, Hanuman Das has a point. If {{fact}} tags get applied all over the place, what else does one do but provide citations? If the only citations available are links that may appear commercial, one is between the rock and the proverbial hard place.
BTW, your handle conjures images of the area around Faneuil Hall and Quincy Market for this expatriate now living in the Midwest. Why, I don't know, but it does make me a bit homesick.
Septegram 13:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Quoth BostonMA:
If a fact is notable, then there should exist references to it in independent literature, such as newspapers, magazines, etc, and fact tags should be replaced by citations to such sources per WP:V.
"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
OK, may I give you an analogy where I think one's own website could be a reasonable source?
I'm a Wiccan in the Blue Star Tradition. It's a moderately-large Trad, as these things go, with over a hundred verified members at last count (and in the Neo-Pagan community, that's pretty good, as is our longevity, given that the Trad was founded in the early 1970s). However, an article about one of our members, who might be notable for other reasons, might make reference to something about her that was only verifiable on the Tradition's web page. Should I, as creator/editor of the article not put the link up in response to a {{fact}}? Remember, we're talking about some moderately big fish in a fairly small pond here.
Please take this as a civil inquiry; I'm not trying to be combative here.
Septegram 16:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I take your comment as a civil inquiry. Please read WP:V.
"Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."
There is an exception:
"Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so."
However the exception still requires previous publication by a third party publisher. I hope this helps to explain the policy. --BostonMA 16:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Badal Roy

Hi, if you believe the Badal Roy article to read like an advertisement, why not simply spell out, in a constructive manner, exactly which sections you object to on that article's "discussion" page? Badagnani 01:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the section that I think is an advertisment link was what I deleted. --BostonMA 01:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't my question. You added a tag at the moment you deleted those links. That doesn't make sense, and must therefore have been a mistake? Badagnani 01:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Not a personal attack

A fact: Mattisse has been confirmed to have used

And while your tagging people for personal attacks, check out User:Calton's latest updates to my talk page. —Hanuman Das 01:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I reread the discussion several times. It seems to me that your first comment could be interpreted as playing the "anti-pagan" card. To be quite honest, that is how I interpret your remark. Although Calton's comments were not civil, I have deep reservations about whether you should be complaining about how others have treated you. Sincerely, --BostonMA 02:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
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