Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:27, 27 October 2006

Welcome to Misplaced Pages!!!

Hello Rosencomet! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing! --  Netsnipe    17:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Getting Started Misplaced Pages Tutorial How to edit a page The five pillars of Misplaced Pages Manual of Style Be bold in editing How to write a great article WikiProjects Getting your info out there Cite your sources Neutral Point of View Point of View Verifiability Uploading images Image use policy Getting more Misplaced Pages rules Policy Library Getting Help New contributors' help page Where to ask a question Help Desk Frequently Asked Questions Getting along Wikiquette Civility Sign your posts Wikipedians Conflict resolution Getting technical Pages needing attention Peer review Utilities Village pump

Hello! Mike Ingalls is not the appropriate spot to post information about yourself, because that's the encyclopedic part of the Misplaced Pages website. User:Rosencomet/Archive 1, however, is available for personal information about yourself. Please see Misplaced Pages:Introduction and Misplaced Pages:User page for more information. --  Netsnipe    17:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, Rosencomet, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! 

Self-promotion

Please don't use wikipedia for self-promotion. You make Jim cry. It's against the rules of wikipedia. There's also a problem with conflict of interest and imparsiality of your edit. All your edits have been reverted. Thank you. Project2501a 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

Dear Netsnipe,

First of all, no, I am not Mike Ingalls. I am the director of a group that has hosted appearances by Mike many times over the last 25 years. I was introduced to Misplaced Pages by someone who had seen a very incorrect listing about one of the events I facilitate, and after posting corrections I noticed that many authors, lecturers, and musicians that I thought were quite worthy of having listings (comparing them to others who were already listed) had no entries. Being the author of our event catalog and having handy short bios on many of these folks, I decided to post the most recent info I had on them as a courtesy. These are not, in my opinion, vanity listings, but actual short biographical sketches of authors and entertainers of interest.

I hope to expand some of the listings and keep them up to date with new data as I receive it, which is usually when I book them next. In a few cases, I've simply added a bit to existing listings, such as an additional college degree, award, or a new book or CD produced.

I don't think I've violated the Misplaced Pages guidelines. These are professional folks, usually published or with their art/music produced, often internationally celebrated. I'd say Mike Ingalls is near the low end of noteriety among the listings I've posted, It's true, but I haven't finished checking all his credits. He has been a professional classical musician and a paid speaker on a number of subjects, and did record on the album Neandir: Lady of the Flame with Victoria Ganger and Ian Corrigan. He has appeared on television as a performer, and may have more to his credit. I will follow up on it.

In any event, my purpose was to give the Misplaced Pages community the benefit of my store of short biographical sketches, mostly just a paragraph long. They seemed tailor-made for the purpose, and quite a diverse collection: New Age, Magickal, Counter-Cultural, Art & Music of many types, the Healing Arts, World Spirituality, and more. I will keep an eye to the guidelines, but please be aware of my good intentions, and that I might either expand a somewhat sparse-looking listing within a week of its appearance or encourage the listed person (or someone from a listed group) to update me on their specifics. I'm just trying to be helpful in the spirit of the good work I see being done here.

Ad Astra, Rosencomet Rosencomet 17:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rosencomet, we've only just realised you're not Mike after going through your log of contributions to Misplaced Pages and we're very concerned about a conflict of interest here. You are a director of new age festival and creating biographies for all of your guest speakers some of which have been copied and pasted out of your online programme. Since we suspect that no one else would have created these articles otherwise, some editors including myself can only interpret this as an attempt to use Misplaced Pages to promote your festival by raising its online profile through multiple articles. Patricia Telesco for example will probably deleted because she fails the Misplaced Pages:Notability (people) guidelines. There are also neutral point of view issues here since it's in your interests to promote these people speaking at your festival instead of writing an impartial biography. Please address our concerns before you continue editing Misplaced Pages. Other editors will get back to you on this matter shortly, but it's 4am in Sydney right now so I must sleep. Please leave your reply on this talk page. --  Netsnipe    18:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Notability requirements

To save yourself a bit of grief, please read Misplaced Pages's notability requirements for biographies. Published authors are certainly acceptible, but some of the bios you are adding will be deleted sooner or later. Please read the requirements and be more discriminating in your additions... Thanks! —Hanuman Das 18:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Article mention spamming and verifiability

I also note that you are spamming articles, such as Timothy Leary, with mentions of Association for Consciousness Exploration and Starwood Festival. Please note that all additions to Misplaced Pages must be verifiable. This means that you must be able to provide a book or journal reference (not a web-only one). If you can do that for your additions, fine. If you can't, please desist. —Hanuman Das 18:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Misleading edit summaries

This edit has a misleading edit summary. You added text to the article in addition to the things mentioned. Thus it could in no way be considered a minor edit, which is restricted to grammatical and spelling fixes which do not add or subtract from the content of the article. Using misleading edit summaries is highly discouraged and may lead to conflicts with other editors. —Hanuman Das 18:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses

Ok, then. I don't want to bite the newcomer, but rather just make sure that you know what the policies are. Many of your additions are just great and I am glad to see them. On the references to Starwood and ACE, it is ok if there is an existing author bio, say in the back of one of their books that refers to their Starwood participation, but not ok if it isn't verifiable in print. Basicly, the celebrity and their agent get to decide whether they want it called out, unless it should happen to get in the news :-). Also, where it is appropriate, make sure you spell out Association for Consciousness Exploration rather than put ACE, which goes somewhere else! I've fixed it in several location where I thought it was appropriate to leave in. But you would know more than I about sources, so you'll need to decide which artists/authors have self-publicized their involvement and which have only been publicized by the Festival. It's appropriate, I think, to put mentions in the former articles, but not the latter... Hope this makes sense... —Hanuman Das 20:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Question

Are you Jeff Rosenbaum? You have a strange edit history in relationship to that article. Or are you 999 who is always saying he is consulting with you, but you never speak for yourself except in edit histories? There is something very odd going on here, I've started to notice. Maybe you could explain more what is going on regarding you and these various articles you seem to be behind the scenes on that are all related in some way. NLOleson 20:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Response

Well, it's going to be tough, probably impossible, to keep all the articles. Starwood Festival, WinterStar Symposium and Association for Consciousness Exploration are safe I think. On people, please see WP:BIO for policies. The festival organizers will not be notable enough to have their own articles, but you could put a paragraph apiece about them in the ACE article, I suspect. Some of the presenters are not going to make it either: having a book or two published is not always enough to be considered notable by Misplaced Pages standards.

I've known 999 online for a while, and he is a good guy to help with occult, magick and paganism articles and he's been around enough to know the WP policies and maybe bend 'em a little, but he can't save you from a concerted effort to delete anything non-notable. When you started putting mentions of ACE, SF and WSS into existing articles is what got you noticed. If you hadn't done that, you might have slipped by, but obviously you put something in an article somebody was watching and it made them suspicious of what you were doing.

As for verifiability, it is a pillar of WP. It means you have to provide a reference that someone else can look up, preferably in a book. ACE records aren't going to do it. The web site will be borderline, as both web-only and "autobiographical" sources are considered inferior. You may have to take material out of the articles if you can't point to a printed review, etc. etc. Read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:CITE to understand how important references and citations are. I'll do what I can, but give up on Brushwood Folklore Center, Jeff Rosenbaum, and Joseph Rothenberg; the first looks commercial and the latter two aren't notable by WP standards. With the authors, go to Amazon and start listing a bibliography of all their published books. If they have less than three and/or they are self-published or pamphlets, give up, they'll never pass. I think they have to have at least one book which passes WP:BOOK - reputable published reviews!

You have to think of WP like a paper encyclopedia. If someone is notable enough to have an article in Encyclopedia Brittanica, then no problem putting 'em in WP. But someone who's not published or had multiple mentions in third-party sources isn't going to stay. Sooner or later someone will start a deletion process...

Hope this helps... —Hanuman Das 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't understand why you continue to create articles

Reading your talk page I see that lots of people are trying to help you out and enlighten you as to the rules you must follow here at Misplaced Pages for articles. Yet you continue to create articles on people who are not notable with no effort to provide the required citations. I don't understand what drives you to do this. Surely you can get publicity for your festivals without misusing Misplaced Pages. I can see by the edit histories that you are very active. Why not concetrate on a few people who are actually notable, rather than go on creating articles on people who will only remain because they slip through the Misplaced Pages cracks. I would be more than happy to help you out getting your articles together if I didn't feel you are misusing Misplaced Pages. GBYork 23:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

GBYork, don't you know how to use "user contributions"? Rosencoment hasn't created any new articles recently. If you think otherwise, list them. —Hanuman Das 01:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That's right. All I've been doing for a while is trying to improve my existing listings and provide discographies and bibliographies and such. And while I'm at it, I'd like to thank 999 and Hanuman Das for their help and patience. I have two jobs and little free time, but I intend to learn to do these entries better; I appreciate the help making my data into real references and citations.Rosencomet 17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't use Misplaced Pages to promote your festival

You are taking advantage of the whole hardworking Misplaced Pages community when you do so. NothingMuch 00:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your premise. I have spoken with most of the people who's articles I have either posted or edited. They all consider an appearance as a speaker or performer at these events to be an important credit in their career. It says something about the audience they serve and appeal to, and in many cases it indicates a multi-cultural interest and a desire to network with non-mainstream communities, both spiritual and ideological. In many cases, appearing there has been a milestone or turning-point in their careers and lives.

I have become part of the "hard-working Misplaced Pages community" myself, and have posted dozens of articles by notable authors and spokespeople for certain segments of society that have been previously neglected. I have created or added to discographies and bibliographies on existing articles as well, hoping to share the information my activities bring me on a regular basis. I have sent e-mails to the folks I've linked to both telling them what I've done and urging them to log in themselves and become part of this community, review their listings for accuracy and such, and consider doing the same for others they consider appropriate. Some have done just that. I have received many letters from authors and entertainers thanking me for having contributed their listing.

I am new at this, and have't had the time (holding down two jobs) to learn all the niceties of proper citation and reference listing, and I thank those that have helped shape up my listings. I've noticed additional data being added to them, and am gratified to see it. I think I'm doing just what a member of this community should be doing, and don't think your accusation is valid.Rosencomet 15:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellen Evert Hopman

Please read the talk page. You need to supply a citation for every piece of information that you add. Thanks. -999 (Talk) 18:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am aware of the problems with this listing, and only included this info about her position with Whiteoak because Ms. Hopman herself sent it to me in a letter just hours before concerning this very issue. I am not the person who has been messing with this listing or posting the non-factual info, and I immediately informed Ms. Hopman of my addition. Rosencomet 18:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Anne Hill

Looks like 999 has already nominated Anne Hill for deletion. Go vote in the AfD if you like, but it looks like it may not be necessary... —Hanuman Das 02:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

AmyLee

I've added the "{{prod}}" template to the article AmyLee, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not and Misplaced Pages:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages, or, if you disagree, discuss the issues raised at Talk:AmyLee. If you remove the {{dated prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Fram 09:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison

Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison has been proposed deletion process for the reasons given on the prod. It does not appear to satisfy Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria. You can remove the template but it still may be nomiation for deletion through the afd process and a concensus on Misplaced Pages can be reached regarding the articles's status.

Meanwhile, please attempt to upgrade the article appropriately if you so choose. Alien666 15:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

In regards to copyrighted material that has been removed

Greetings. I recently noticed that one of the articles that you have contributed to (Deborah Lipp, to be specific) had one paragraph lifted directly from her 'about me' page, with only a few words removed. I have removed the offending text (diff), however if you wish you rewrite the text in your own words so that it is non-infringing, you are more than welcome to do so. Have a pleasant evening, and happy editing. Kyra_~(talk) 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

External links

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites that you are affiliated with, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Misplaced Pages. Thank you. --Calton | Talk 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Timmy12

Go here and add a report of your personal experiences with being stalked by Timmy12. Your complaint will carry more weight than mine. I've probably only seen a slice of it. -999 (Talk) 14:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Your messages

Thanks for you notes on my talk page. I think Timmy12's removal of citations has crossed the line into stalking and vandalism. Have you considered bringing it to the attention of admins on WP:AN/I? —Hanuman Das 16:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Link Spam

Template:Halt Citations should be to reliable sources published by reputable publishers. They should not be to commercial advertisements. Also, I do not know if you are associated with the website that your links have promoted, but please read WP:Vanity before posting any more links. Thank-you. --BostonMA 00:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Was asked

Was asked to intervene here. Could you please let me know (1) what Rosencomet is and (2) what the affiliation of ACE is with Rosencomet? By that, I mean Rosencomet the organization, not the person. Thanks -- Samir धर्म 02:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no organization called Rosencomet. When the ACE website was set up, the webmaster at that time decided to use the name rosencomet.com as a tribute to a running joke from the history of the group that gave birth to ACE. They were called the Chameleon Club, and their symbol was the Rose & Comet, a variation on the Discordian "Sacred Chao", itself a variation of the Yin/Yang. (Besides, even if ACE.com weren't taken, it would have led to a mountain of spam and mis-directed e-mail. Even Starwood.com would have confused ACE with several commercial ventures. ACE is not-for-profit.)

May I ask, who are you, and by whom were you asked to intervene? Rosencomet 13:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sally Eaton

I have restored the article on Sally Eaton to its state prior to your massive deletion. A subject not wanting an article is not a proper reason to remove information from Misplaced Pages. If the article is libelous, then yes. But this article appears to be sourced and therefore presents no legal issues. Therefore, I have restored the text unless a better reason to remove the text can be found, Metros232 03:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Link spam again

Template:Halt Please reread WP:V to understand what are appropriate references for Misplaced Pages. Also, please read WP:BLP. --BostonMA 11:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You Are Vandalizing

I have read the material, and disagree with your contention that I have posted inappropriate citations. I have created and/or contributed to many articles on speakers and entertainers I have knowledge of in fields I am involved in. I am new at this, but have learned that I must cite sources for flat statements. For a speaker in these fields, an appearance at the Starwood Festival or the WinterStar Symposium is a legitimate credit, which says something about their standing as a presenter in the communities associated with these fields, just as appearing at Esalen Institute, Interface, the Ojai Institute, Shadybrook, Lillith Faire, Pagan Spirit Gathering, or other institutions and/or events of note. If I am to claim these artists spoke or offered programming at these events, I must cite evidence or documentation of this to verify it, and the only way to do that is to refer to the program material from that event. I have been adding links to pages that verify the claim that each person did indeed appear at the particular event and when. The page each goes to merely lists the artist's inclusion in the bill for the event; unless you start navigating all over the website, there is no advertising for a present event or product, just a record of the past. That's called documentation of facts.

Please cease your harassment and stalking of my citations. I have corresponded with other Misplaced Pages contributors with much more experience than myself, and they agree I have acted appropriately, and have even helped reverse the vandalism you and your buddies and/or alternate identities have been engaged in. Please use your energies to contribute your own articles instead of sabotaging mine. I believe I have made some very real contributions to Misplaced Pages's coverage of articles concerning notable individuals in the fields I know. Rosencomet 13:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for responding.

First I would like to state that I am not vandalizing, but am making good faith edits for the benefit of Misplaced Pages. You may say that I am vandalizing if you wish, but I believe it will not help your cause any. The same applies for your accusation of stalking.

Regarding your statement "If I am to claim these artists spoke or offered programming at these events, I must cite evidence or documentation of this to verify it,..." That is not quite correct. You may add material to Misplaced Pages which you believe to be true, and which you in good faith believe will advance the Misplaced Pages's goals of creating an online encyclopedia. If proper references are not provided, someone else may remove your material, if such a removal is made in good faith. However, that is not quite the same as "you must cite evidence".

Regarding the type of sources that may be used for references, I think WP:V is very clear.

"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy..."

"...Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."

"...Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications."

is not a third party publisher.

In the case of Biographies of Living Persons the requirements for sources are more stringent.

"Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives."

The recent request that was made to you by the subject of one of your articles underscores the need to use third party references. Had you used a newspaper or magazine article, the Wikiarticle on the individual in question would have been reporting that which had already been reported in the recognized media.

I will not go into issues of Notability, Vanity, Conflict of interest and Autobiography, which I think also apply, but will skip directly to the issue of spamming.

The fact is, that on the plea of needing to provide references to facts (which apparently are not notable enough to merit mention in newspapers, magazines, etc.) you are adding a links to your promotional website in numerous articles. Keep a link to your website in the A.C.E. page, and in the Starwood and Winterstar pages, but don't add your links everywhere.

You are of course free to ignore my advice. However, please be aware that the idea of blacklisting your site has already been raised by some. Blacklisting of your site would prevent any edits which include your website to be saved. This is a somewhat drastic solution, but is final resort to stop link spam when all else seems to fail. I personally do not favor blacklisting your site. I think it is appropriate in a few places. However, if you continue on your present course, please be aware of the possible consequences. I look forward to discussing this issue with you in further detail if you desire. Sincerely, --BostonMA 14:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)