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Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11 Sdedeo (tips) 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

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Conspiracy Theory Weasel Words

Invoking a comparison of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 to those associated with Pearl Harbor is very misleading, as the latter has much less general evidence and support for its claims. It should be removed to keep an NPOV. Sloverlord 01:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I will not allow any conspiracy theory nonsense to be put in this article, and will do whatever it takes to prevent the victims of this Islamofascist tragedy from being insulted by liberals. Cerebral Warrior 15:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Including reporting them to local law enforcement agencies I presume... Cripipper 14:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, was it terrorism or fascism, because they are two very different things? Terrorism is a small group of people. Fascism implies a state sponsor. I believe the evidence points to fascism, but I'd drop the "islamo" part. You also speak of victims... well, it's my nation too, and I feel that I'm a victim, and I feel that this article should reflect objective reality, not your idea of what will make me comfortable. And liberals? That words lost all of its meaning? If you are taking charge of the edits here, then that would account for the sorry state of this article.Slipgrid 14:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Local law-enforcement agencies scan the internet for Islamos anyway, so I don't think my intervention will be needed. Cerebral Warrior 08:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

News flash, it's not illegal to disagree with the 9/11 story. We aren't Canada or Europe. Yet. --Golbez 20:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I wondered why the information available at the below link has not been mentioned on this page. The people on the list include highly respected members of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, USA Army Generals, ex-CIA employees (and many others) who all openly, publically and vehemently voice their belief that the official 9/11 story is deeply flawed (to say the least). If these people's beliefs don't count as anything towards the 9/11 conspiracy theories, then what on earth does count?

Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Critics of 9/11 Commission Report

Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report. Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11. This web site is a collection of their public statements. It should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this web site.

Listed at the below link are highly critical statements about the 9/11 Commission Report and/or calls for a new 9/11 investigation publicly made by over 50 of these senior officials. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed. These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by their decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the Report is not irresponsible, illogical, nor disloyal, per se. In fact, it can be just the opposite.

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

The 9/11 Commission Report has its own article. Peter Grey 13:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I think a mention of the people listed in the above links should be added to the U.S. Government response - 9/11 Commission Report section on this page as well as to the 9/11 Commission Report's own seperate page. The highly critical statements about the 9/11 Commission Report and/or calls for a new 9/11 investigation publicly made by over 50 of these senior officials is clearly deeply relevant to both of these pages. So is anyone going to add them?

Still no feedback regarding adding this relevant criticism of the official 9/11 report? If this page contains statements from what the Republican party's official report claims happened on that day, then it should also contain the significant criticism that has been publically voiced by members of that very same political party. If no one is going to add this important information or respond to this suggestion with a satisfactory answer for me then I say that this page deserves to have the banner denoting that it is biased and not neutral.

If this page contains statements that are in agreement with the official 9/11 report but does not contains the statements that are from senior levels of government (Republican & Democrats), army and ex-intelligence agency employees which severely criticize the official 9/11 report, then clearly it is a biased and unbalanced encyclopedic page.

October 11th Events

Stop deleting the information! edit it, don't delete it!

it has nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.--Tbeatty 01:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Umm, what has nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks? This looks like censorship. This is the talk page. Some one post something here, and we all get to decide if it has something to do with the article. You are not the only one who gets to decide. So, I stand by the original poster... Stop deleting the info! Slipgrid 15:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Introduction should not expand on detail

Proposed change:

Nineteen terrorists affiliated with al-Qaeda hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Each team of hijackers included a trained pilot. The hijackers crashed two of the airliners (United Airlines Flight 175 and American Airlines Flight 11) into the World Trade Center in New York City, one plane into each tower (WTC 1 and WTC 2). A third airliner (American Airlines Flight 77) was crashed into the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia. Passengers and members of the flight crew on the fourth aircraft (United Airlines Flight 93) attempted to retake control of their plane from the hijackers; that plane crashed into a field near the town of Shanksville in rural Somerset County, Pennsylvania. In addition to the 19 hijackers, 2,973 people died; another 24 are missing and presumed dead.

--PTR 19:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Your suggestions sound good, though I think the following needs to remain included:

"Both towers collapsed within two hours, followed by WTC 7 later that day."

Aside from that, I have added your change. And, I put commas instead of parentheses around American Airlines Flight 77. --Aude (talk) 21:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• WTC7 was not directly part of the attack, is can be confusing because it is not previously mentioned. It can be in body, but does not belong in intro --JimWae 21:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on that. --Aude (talk) 21:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

How can you imagine that the controlled demolition of WTC 7 "was not directly part of the attack?" Slipgrid 18:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Because the attack actually happened, whereas the demolition is a mth, and 7 WTC was not a target of the hijackers. Peter Grey 21:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the word "alleged"? The fact is that there was no criminal investigation that proved what happened on 9/11, therefore the government's story is only one conspiracy theory out of about two, which are: (a) 19 Arab terrorists with box cutters did it, and (b) The US government did it. I have no problem with people picking one theory over another, but I do have a problem with unproven theories being stated as if they are proven facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.101.191 (talk • contribs)

Theory (a) is definitely true. Theory (b) is nonsense. Could someone please block this user? Cerebral Warrior 12:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, never remove someone else's comments unless they are simple trolling and insults. You are walking on ice so thin, it's amazing it hasn't shattered. Second of all, we don't ban people for disagreeing with you. He's done nothing remotely bannable; unlike you. --Golbez 12:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Comparing a 9/11 conspiracy theory to the actual truth is trolling, and it is an insult to Americans and the American government, not to mention the poor souls who were murdered that day. Cerebral Warrior 13:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the consipiracy theories are simply that. Conspiracy theories. It is in fact trolling when you try to replace well established facts with unsupported claims of massive conspiracy. Rtrev 16:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, what sort of government would want to kill its own people and attack a building housing its own military staff. You cant compare these conspiracy theories to the obvious facts. Cerebral Warrior 17:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

why don't you google USS Liberty and see what your govt (LBJ) said when the unmarked Israeli jets were attacking the ship. He said he wanted the ship at the bottom of the Mediterranean. Happy to napalm and kill his own on the most decorated warship in the fleet. Does the President in that case represent the US Govt? Observer 25 October 2006

For the attention of 'Cerebral Warrior' ; in response to your question "what sort of government would want to kill its own people", the answer is a Government of The United States of America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Operation_Northwoods

James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his Body of Secrets thus: "Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."

I can think of at least one sort of government. --Golbez 18:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The issue is evidence, not plausibility. Peter Grey 10:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.." This is evidence of willingness.

And willingness is mighty far from doing it, especially in such a media prolific age. Rtrev 13:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You two are clearly prancing around the issue, even when presented with evidence that is undeniable you still cannot find the grace or balls to admit you are wrong. This user 'Cerebral Warrior' asked what government would want to kill it's own people, I have presented proof in black and white that the USA government were willing to do exactly that in order to further their military objectives. End of discussion.

U.S. Government Response

This section begins "Within hours of the attack". Surely someone was aware that the planes had been hijacked before they crashed. Was this really the first government response? Kernow 16:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Most Embarrassing Wiki Ever

There's not a NPOV; only the governments POV. The Responsibility and Motives section only gives the governments POV, with no evidence. How is a "1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden" related, and where's the evidence that shows it relates? If this is the "day that changed everything," then why are the only Long-term effects the Economic aftermath and Potential health effects? How about a section about the perpetual war? How about some info about this event being used as a reason to invade Iraq? Why is there such a limited amount of media on this page? Right now, there's four different movies in Google Videos top 100 about this day, and I believe they are all public domain videos. Lets add them! We have video of one plane hitting one tower; lets get video of all three towers falling! There's endless hours of video and audio that would be suitable for the media section. Why is the control of this article in the hands of a few, like Tom Harrison? Was Misplaced Pages meant to be used as propaganda? I only ask, because that's what it seems like it's being used for. Here's a list of about 100 basic and unanswered questions related to this event. I have only one question... why doesn't this article address any of these questions? Slipgrid 14:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The article does address many of those questions, and the conspiracy article does the same. However, it goes without saying that many of those questions are misleading. Terms like "perpetual war" are POV, not "Economic aftermath". I suggest you cut the crap and be a little more constructive. -Maverick 21:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, you don't like the term "perpetual war," then how about a section called "War on Terror." What would you call the hostilities sparked by this event, and why isn't it a subsection of the "Long-term effects?" You want to know my POV? It's anger, because this article is a farce. 71.72.236.245 22:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You say, "article does address many of those questions, and the conspiracy article does the same," but what's the conspiracy article, and why does it exist? Both articles report a conspiracy. Why do we need two articles? Let's merge the two articles! Or, is there really a conspiracy against the truth. We shouldn't allow two articles. If you want to create a 9/11 Commission Report book report, then that's fine; It shouldn't go here. Slipgrid 22:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My guess is it doesn't address them because most of them are unrelated to the events of that day and are thin veneers over attempts to insert dubious information to prop up widely discredited conspiracy theories. That is generally frowned upon here. Rtrev 21:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it's generally frowned upon to string togeather terms like "discredited conspiracy theories," "thin veneers," "unrelated to the events," and "dubious information," without using any thought as to what they mean. I mean, which story includes "discredited conspiracy theories?" A large number of Americans, and an even larger number of people across the world would say it's the story in this article. 71.72.236.245 22:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well said, and well named section here. Raise that banner high up! The one which states that this article is fictional satire… lock it up, and let it stay locked until our amendments are implemented, and our questions answered… you vile conspiracy theorists yet have to produce that Boeing 757 whose tale section ricochet from Pentagon and cut support columns of building 7!;)… Lovelight 08:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Slipgrid, guess who's watching? Homeland Security! :-) So cut that anti-American crap before you get packed off to Gitmo. Cerebral Warrior 08:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

This is by far your last warning: Cut with the homeland security, "lol they're watching" crap. I banned you once for a threat that you said was a joke; the joke's over. Stop it, now. --Golbez 11:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry man. But I will remind you that what I said is not entirely false. Many countries do scan certain popular websites to prevent terrorists from using them as propaganda tools. I'm sure Misplaced Pages is one of those sites. Also what Misplaced Pages guideline have I violated by making my earlier statement about Guatanamo Bay? It wasn't a personal attack or a legal threat (I didn't threaten to pack him off to Gitmo). Cerebral Warrior 11:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

If it's not false, that's irrelevant - you don't need to point it out every time it comes up. It's annoying and disruptive. --Golbez 12:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

People do go off topic on talk-pages. All I was trying to do was point out that blatant anti-American rants are hurtful and bigotted and hence must be avoided. Cerebral Warrior 12:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

People who were (and are) obstructing neutral point of view within this article are directly responsible for this… I remember those government warnings on this talk page well, and if someone was out of line here, then it's those peopling who put those silly banners on top of it all… Fact is, 911 already blew back, this damage control that we are witnessing here is nothing but pathetic try to avoid inevitable. It's like watching Bush, Rumsfeld, Dick or Rice traveling the globe, talking and fueling more nonsense, while they should be in prison or even better, they should be gently put to sleep… imho, of course… Lovelight 13:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, why is it that you reprimand me for my comments while letting Lovelight get away with his irrelevant rants? Cerebral Warrior 13:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

He's not telling people they're going to jail for saying things. --Golbez 21:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant rant my plum!;P Isolating this event from global perspective is like writing while blindfolded… I tried to be as decent here as one could be, tried to implement small (rather then jumbo sized) but necessary changes in kind and polite manner… which all together turnout to be nothing but a waste of time. This talk page deserves no better, what is there to talk about? What is there to suggest and/or improve when dozens and dozens of well known facts were repeatedly answered with such well elaborated replies as Mongo's: "No thanks…". Pih… This whole backstage is like divine comedy, free will Vs. determinism… Well, Slipgrid put it really well there, so there is no need to repeat obvious... Lovelight 14:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Least I replied...but since many here completely fail to understand what an article talk page is about, not much more than "No Thanks" is really necessary.--MONGO 08:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Top image

This image has no source and was removed by OrphanBot: Image:WTC1 on fire.jpg Does anyone know what the source is? I'm thinking it probably is copyrighted, but I haven't figured out the source.

If we can't use that image, I'm trying to find alternatives.

1. On the German article, they use Image:Twin Towers in fire - 911- Fema picture.jpg. This is from chapter 1 of the FEMA report , figure 1-6, which has "OEM" as the author. I think that's the NYC Office of Emergency Management, who's material I don't think is public domain.
2. In going through the chapters, I see that FEMA notes the copyright holder/photographer, next to most photographs. But not all, such as Figure 2-24, 2-26, 2-29 in chapter 2. Perhaps this means these photographs are public domain, and are usable here?
3. On Flickr, I found some photographs uploaded by Comerking that are marked as Creative commons by-sa, such as this. I have seen these before. But, I can't remember the source. Perhaps these were taken people in a NYPD helicopter. Or perhaps by Federal authorities?
4. There is another set (creative commons by-sa) on Flickr, taken from more of a distance (from Brooklyn)
5. Lower resolution photos available include a few taken by the National Park Service from Ellis Island.
6. Public domain pictures from the Pentagon are easy to come by, such as Image:Pentagon taxi hit by lightpole.jpg.
7. Here's the commons category, which aside from Image:Apicofwtc.jpg, includes mainly pictures of the recovery effort.

If anyone knows the source of the aerial shots, or the image removed by OrphanBot, it would be helpful. Or has other thoughts on what should be used as the top image? --Aude (talk) 19:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is in U.S. Givernment papers, brochures and their websites, if an image IS NOT attributed to someone outside of the agency, then the image is within the public domain. I'll search around as well and see what I can find.--MONGO 20:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

That is what I thought, in regards to the images in the FEMA report. Of what I've found so far, I think those are the best. Chapter 5 of the report shows one of the aerial shots (noted in #3 above, in Flickr). These are attributed to OEM, and not in the public domain. I'll keep looking and see if I can find anything else, but the image that OrphanBot removed looks indeed like fairuse and not suitable. --Aude (talk) 20:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

These bots do fine most of the time, but I noticed one lately that was removing the capitalized article titles from text, leaving only the noncapitlaized wording and thereby forcing a redirect to the other article...I generally recheck bot work when I see this, but as you said, the image isn't probably suitable for use. I do wish we had more images or that some folks would be more liberal in allowing images to be in the public domain.--MONGO 22:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Simply pathetic: http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/wikipedia.html Lovelight 14:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Re that article: hahahahaha... my favorite part is how when the mistake was corrected and the CNN list was used it is implied that Misplaced Pages (described as a singular malicious entity no less!) was "covering their tracks." I guess the author didn't know about history and/or talk pages. Thanks for that it was really hilarious. Rtrev 15:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia hypocracy

when i called the Zionist terrorist, Begin, a "terrorist" i got warned by Wiki. When i referred to his attacks on the King David Hotel as a "terrorist attack" i got warned. But when Arab Muslims attacked us on 9/11/01, it is perfectly okay to to call a spade a spade.

1. Grunwald, Michael (2001). "Terrorists Hijack 4 Airliners, Destroy World Trade Center, Hit Pentagon; Hundreds Dead". Remembering September 11. Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive. Retrieved 2006-09-11.
2. "Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11". CBC News. 2004-10-29. Retrieved 2006-09-07.

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