- Oppose. The immigration theory is at least as well supported by archeological research, linguistic evidence and written sources as the continuity hypothesis. Borsoka (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, as well. Moreover, the Daco-Roman continuity theory have numerous weak points, that the other theory does not have. It's a bit odd that the IP is identifying i.e. "linguistic", "toponymy", "geographical studies" roughly as a "comprehensive and diverse evidence pool", although especially these are in the strong support regarding the Immigration theory.(KIENGIR (talk) 15:12, 6 April 2018 (UTC))
- Definitely oppose. Both theories have their weaknesses when it comes to evidence, but to call one a theory and the other hypothesis is dubious, especially considering that the immigration theory doesn't solely rest upon Roesler.TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit (talk) 04:38, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
- I concur: accurately speaking, both are just hypotheses, they never made it to "theory". Conclusive evidence is severely lacking for both. Tgeorgescu (talk) 05:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Borsoka, KIENGIR, TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit: Please list those evidences - that support/prove the migration/admigration hypothesis. Saying that some evidence that supports the Daco-Roman theory - or comes into conflict with it gives more credence to the other two hypothesis is a logical fallacy. Such evidences that support those two hypothesis are not present in the article, while the article does present evidence supporting the Daco-Roman continuity theory. Evidence of a Latin-Speaking population south of the Danube does not support those two theories - you need to present evidence proving the alleged migration (especially in the light of abundant evidence of a Latin-speaking population north of the Danube, present in this article). Until those evidences are listed under the same section, in this article, those two (migration, admigration) cannot and should not be presented as "well supported" and "competing" theories. It's simply ridiculous that those evidences are not referenced/presented in this article, for all of us to see how well supported they really are.Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- There is no evidence for anything the (Proto)Romanians did for roughly 1000 years. So, obviously, too many pieces of the puzzle are missing to have conclusive evidence for any "theory" in this respect. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:19, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no evidence for the continuous presence of a Latin/Romance-speaking population in the territory of the former province of Dacia Traiana after the withdrawal of the Romans. On the other hand, the Romanians adopted the names of the major rivers from Slavs, Hungarians, Turkic peoples and Germans (which can hardly be explained based on the continuity theory). The Romanians did not adopt a single word from the Germanic peoples, although the Gepids dominated the territory for a longer period than the Romans had held it. The oldest Romanian chronicles wrote of the migration of masses of Romanians from the Byzantine Empire to Hungary. The Romanians adopted Albanian loanwords. The Romanians were known as a migratory pastoralist population even in the 12th-15th centuries ... Borsoka (talk) 15:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
@Borsoka:
1. As I said, provide those said evidences as links for all the world to see. You, on the other hand, use the same tactic as others (see point 4 below) of trying to take apart the evidence of Daco-Romanian continuity, by casting doubt on the individual parts and hoping that somehow the "whole" gets invalidated.
I asked for evidence supporting your "immigration" hypothesis. The burden of proof is on you. You need to prove a POSITIVE statement - meaning linking/citing archaeological discoveries, corroborated with primary sources, maybe even genetics that show a massive movement of Romanians from the south of Danube to the North.
Point by point:
"there is no evidence for the continuous presence of a Latin/Romance-speaking population in the territory of the former province of Dacia Traiana after the withdrawal of the Romans." - Of course there is, archaeological and primary sources. Byzantin coins, Tombstones with latin inscriptions, cities continuously inhabited etc. Some of those very evidences are cited in this article.
"The Romanians did not adopt a single word from the Germanic peoples" - well, I don't have to take your propagan... sorry, word on it. Prove it. Again you make a NEGATIVE statement so good luck in proving it.
"The oldest Romanian chronicles wrote of the migration of masses of Romanians from the Byzantine Empire to Hungary." - Prove it. Where is this chronicle? I happen to know though of the other way around, of Kekaumenos and Ana Comnena's writings, from the 11th century BC, that point towards a movement of a latinized population from Panonia to Transylvania first, and then from Transylvania to northern Danubian plain.
"The Romanians adopted Albanian loanwords." - says who? Yes, there are some (40-50) words similar, but I challenge you to link any independent western study that shows Romanian has adopted Albanian words. Moreover, even if such a thing happened (which might very well be the case) you need to show when that happened, in which historical context etc.
"The Romanians were known as a migratory pastoralist population even in the 12th-15th centuries ... " - see, this is where you show your true colours. Nothing but a Hungarian nationalistic trying to push his political agenda. Support this extremely general statement. You also show the limits of your knowledge (if any) in confusing Vlach/Voloh/Olah/Blach etc. with Romanians. "Vlach" was used to describe many latinised people, just like Romans called the non-Romans barbarians. Now following your logic we should assume that all non-Romans are of the same ethnicity (since all were called Barbarians).
2. You should start by toning your speech down, then you might sound a bit more convincing.
This entire article is filled with messy sections since it fails to recognize the "Vlach" exonym, and the fact that it was applied by various people through history to describe various ethnicities, whom were more or less related but nevertheless spoke latin (or vulgar latin for that matter). Of course, the context of "Vlach" use is to underline the balkan origin. Because readers who are not invested in this will not dig deeper, and the superficial and unrelated mentioning of Balkan Vlachs gives more credence to an otherwise pure speculative migration from south to north of daco-romans.
3. The fact that a Hungarian (with Russian links) is actively trying to molest this page with pseudo-science is appalling.
4. I would not have gone to this length and let you be with your ideas unless this was a public place and as it turns out you are a part of the current campaign of pushing a politically motivated idea (same campaign is happening on Quora).
As I said, I asked for evidence to PROVE the migration hypothesis. You bring nothing to the table but propaganda and modern nationalistic slogans ("The Romanians were known as a migratory pastoralist population even in the 12th-15th centuries ..."). No links, no citations, no nothing. Disproving (or trying to cast doubt) bits and pieces of the Daco-Roman continuity does not equate, in any shape or form, to proving the migration hypothesis, and this is the core of my request. If Misplaced Pages is to present all those statements (Daco-Roman continuity, South-to-north Immigration or even the more plausible Admigration) in the same light, use the same burden of proof for all of them.
So... where are the archeological finds + primary sources + DNA studies + linguistic studies + etc. etc. etc. that support the migration hypothesis?
Why isn't "Vlach" described in the article in a non-ambiguous way?
Another carefully crafted piece of propaganda: I could not help but notice that in the Historiography section it is mentioned that the Daco-Roman continuity theory was even taught in the Austro-Hungarian Empire until 1870, but in 1780 Franz Joseph Sulzer "rejects" the Daco-Roman Continuity theory. Whomever made this addition is clearly simply malevolent since it is a half truth, and the context is not provided (his beef with Ipsilanti for example). Franz Joseph Sulzer proposes an "alternative fact" which is politically motivated - and he argues that this is the condition of Romanians (justified by his hypothesis - therefore they are not the original inhabitants), to be kept in near slavery.
So it comes that this Misplaced Pages page quickly points out that the Transilvanian School used the Daco-Roman Continuity theory (in order to lead the reader towards the feeling that it is a politically motivated theory) while the Sulzer's theory is not mentioned as politically motivated (he himself clearly points to this!). So while the Daco-Roman hypothesis was USED as a political tool (which is 100% true) BUT, it was just that, as the theory was already established theory for centuries - so it has no effect on it's merits.
On the other hand the migration hypothesis was CREATED as a political tool. And this, imho, has quite a lot to say about it's merits. It simply falls under the same category with Racial Purity.
So much for balance, impartiality and burden of proof. I do wonder who added those tidbits of texts. Also I have to wonder if there is any Romanian, Serbian or Slovakian wondering around on the Hungarian history Misplaced Pages pages spreading unproven nationalistic propaganda.
P.S. Even though you do not declare yourself as a Hungarian/Russian agent, your arguments so far and the way you support them are precisely taken from the "book" of Hungarian nationalistic propaganda. A simple google search will lead to forums filled with so-called scientific talk where the arguments always start with " and as we all know the Romanians are a migratory shepherd people ".Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Cool down, buddy, see WP:ADVOCACY and WP:NOTTHERAPY. Since we do not know what (Proto)Romanians did for roughly 1000 years, evidence is missing for both of the competing theories. We have to acknowledge that much: both are educated guesses. And that's what our article is saying. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:59, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu: Although you are right about the cooling down, stating that both statements (continuity vs migration) are educated guesses is misleading at best. Again, I ask for the migration evidence (that will form a cohesive context supporting it - so I ask for the same principle of burden of proof to be aplied to both statements) to be linked to the main article, for everyone to be able to judge the validity of such a claim. Until then one is an educated guess (the continuity), ti paraphrase you, the other is pure speculation. I could very well contort some explanation about the Hungarian origins as well.Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nobody claims that there was one wave of migration from the south. The immigration theory proposes that the migration started around 1170 and it continued for centuries. Why do you think that Anna Comnena who described the Vlachs as nomads was a Hungarian or Russian agent? Why do you think that archaeological research has proved the continuous presence of a Romance-speaking population if all early medieval sites are situated along rivers bearing Slavic, Hungarian, Turkic or German names in settlements with Slavic, Hungarian, etc names? Borsoka (talk) 15:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Borsoka: I did not say that Anna Comnena is a Hungarian / Russian agent. Please read more carefully. Moreover, again you misleading, Ana Comnena actually mentions Vlachs coming from the NORTH (to SOUTH), not the other way around.
- And moreover - it's slow migration now? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is? Math and medieval population growth is enough to put this to shame.
- Again - can you bring supporting evidence to your statement? (migration or slow migration, as you seem to call it now)?Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Anna Comnena does not write of a migration from the north to the south. She mentioned that the words "Vlach" and "nomadic" are synonyms. You wrote that only Russian and Hungarian agents say, that the Vlachs formed a migratory population. Please read Dlugosz and Chalkokondiles who clearly wrote of waves of migration. Borsoka (talk) 06:26, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
@Boesoka:
Chalkokondyles? That is about Albanian migration.
Jan Dlugosz - 1070 A.D. The first uncontested mention of Vlachs north of the Danube. Jan Dlugosz, a Polish chronicler, reports that Rhutenians, Patzinakas and Vlachs were fighting in the army of cnez Wiaczeslav against Boleslaw, who later become king of Poland.
Can you provide a link for both Chalkokondyles and Dlugosz where thes supposed south-north migration is mentioned/inferred? How about backing up your claims?Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- You're in the wrong place, Misplaced Pages does not evaluate evidence: we're neither research institute, nor university. We simply render WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SECONDARY WP:SOURCES according to WP:DUE, that's all. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu: ??? So anything goes? Is there no rules about acurate information?
- And even so - @Borsoka (and even the Misplaced Pages article itself) has so far failed to produce any WP:SECONDARY WP:SOURCES.
- As for WP:MAINSTREAM my contention is that the migration hypothesis is far from it (I cannot understand how can you, rightfully in my oppinion, dismiss Desusianu, but admit this). What is mainstream? Is it 90% Hungarian nationalistic authors/articles mainstream? How about some US, British, French scholars?
- The Misplaced Pages article cites not even one such article (supporting the migration hypothesis) - yet it is considered mainstream? Moreover, the article starts with "several well-supported" theories, but in case the reader does on he can only find evidences for the Daco-Roman continuity and, as for the other "well supported theory", the mention of Franz Joseph Sulzer - and, I again stress, thought the Misplaced Pages article makes sure to underline the use of the Daco-Roman continuity theory as a political tool by the Transylvanian School it does nothing to mention WHY and HOW Franz Joseph Sulzer came up with the migration theory - reasons he himself admited. Funny enough, those things (his disparaging view of the Romanians) and his conflict with Ipsilanti can be found on Misplaced Pages too (@Borsoka - go quickly to edit the page).
- Since you seem so dismissive of the Romanian ethnogenesis (keep mentioning that nobody knows what the proto-Romanians did for 1000 years) may I respectfully ask to compile such information, presented in a clear way with links to sources where possible? Add this to whatever is present on this page.
- I understand and I agree that the comunist regime has used many of those things as a political (Mihai Viteazu and his "national" union for example, Burebista and Decebal as "national heroes" and the list goes on) but this does not take away the merits of every piece of supporting evidence as quite a lot of them, corroborated with the newest tool in historical research (genetics) have been used by Western scholars (US/UK/Germany/France etc) to argue in favor of Daco-Roman continuity.
- I also ask that the problem regarding Franz Joseph Sulzer be corrected. Either the context of his "alternative" hypothesis is mentioned or, in case it is considered irrelevant, the mentioning of the Transylvania School's use of the Daco-Roman continuity for political purposes be removed for the same reason (since the theory itself was not something they invented).
- @Borsoka: Just in case you forgot, can you bring any support to your claims?
- Point by point:
- "there is no evidence for the continuous presence of a Latin/Romance-speaking population in the territory of the former province of Dacia Traiana after the withdrawal of the Romans." - Of course there is, archaeological and primary sources. Byzantin coins, Tombstones with latin inscriptions, cities continuously inhabited etc. Some of those very evidences are cited in this article.
- "The Romanians did not adopt a single word from the Germanic peoples" - well, I don't have to take your propagan... sorry, word on it. Prove it. Again you make a NEGATIVE statement so good luck in proving it.
- "The oldest Romanian chronicles wrote of the migration of masses of Romanians from the Byzantine Empire to Hungary." - Prove it. Where is this chronicle? I happen to know though of the other way around, of Kekaumenos and Ana Comnena's writings, from the 11th century BC, that point towards a movement of a latinized population from Panonia to Transylvania first, and then from Transylvania to northern Danubian plain.
- "The Romanians adopted Albanian loanwords." - says who? Yes, there are some (40-50) words similar, but I challenge you to link any independent western study that shows Romanian has adopted Albanian words. Moreover, even if such a thing happened (which might very well be the case) you need to show when that happened, in which historical context etc.
- "The Romanians were known as a migratory pastoralist population even in the 12th-15th centuries ... " - see, this is where you show your true colours. Nothing but a Hungarian nationalistic trying to push his political agenda. Support this extremely general statement. You also show the limits of your knowledge (if any) in confusing Vlach/Voloh/Olah/Blach etc. with Romanians. "Vlach" was used to describe many latinised people, just like Romans called the non-Romans barbarians. Now following your logic we should assume that all non-Romans are of the same ethnicity (since all were called Barbarians).Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- We have no use here for propagandists of chauvinism, nor for fringe peddlers. WP:OR is expressly prohibited. As for me, there are things which cannot be known: some cannot be known at all, some cannot be known at the present time. Once you understand that, it becomes much easier to agree to disagree. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
@Tgeorgescu:
"We have no use here for propagandists of chauvinism" - so Desusianu is considered propaganda and chauvinism (which I do tend to agree) but the migration hypothesis is not? Fact is Franz Joseph Sulzer proposed the southern migration as a political TOOL against the Romanian ethnics in Transylvania. Ever since then it has been used as a political tool - so why encourage one type of propaganda/chauvinism and not the other? Or if we are to dismiss propaganda and chauvinism (as it should be) why dismiss Desusianu but not the southern migration?
As for philosophy - yeah, you are right (and I hope not trying to patronize me). It has it's place, but not here. Here we are talking about burden of proof, balance, and measuring all statements with the same measure. As for agreeing to disagree, I really need no lectures (not necessarily implying you are trying to give me on).
So again, why is Misplaced Pages knowingly accepting a politically motivated statement be presented as a mainstream, well-supported theory?Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit semi-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:53, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal. The immigrationist and ad-migration hypotheses are both suppositions scarcely backed by physical evidence, as opposed to the continuity theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.97.130.24 (talk) 22:17, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal to downgrade said "theories" to "hypotheses", as there is no evidence to support them. For instance, there are no contemporaneous accounts of any such mass migration for the time period the hypotheses require, all such accounts come from hundreds of years later and are not believable. Moreover, in a rich folklore like Romania's something like a mass migration would've been recorded in significant ways, yet no such thing happened.--196.245.9.70 (talk) 07:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
- The time period started around 1170 and it has not ended yet. There are several contemporaneous accounts of the settlement of significant Vlach groups in Banat, Transylvania, Maramures, Galicia, Slovakia... Are there reliable sources that label the main scholarly views about the Romanians' ethnogenesis as "hipotheses"? Borsoka (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
- Please link to those contemporaneous accounts (not accounts written much later) of mass migration that you speak of. You also have to prove that no Vlachs/Romanians were living in any of the present Romanian territories at the time. FYI, as recent DNA studies have shown, the ethnogenesis of the Romanian people was already accomplished in Middle Neolithic in the same space occupied by Romanians today (yes, including Transylvania). Minimal change/admixture (especially mtDNA) has occurred since. Quite a coincidence that the exact same ethnicity lives in the exact same place 4,000 years later. All Romanian folklore revolves around the same space. The immigrationist hypothesis has already been proven false. Time for you to find another hobby.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
- Read any collection of diplomas from the 13th-15th centuries. You will find many references to Vlach knezes who settled on royal or private lands together with their peoples. Do you say ancient Romanians spoke Slavic, Hungarian, Cuman and German, that is why they did not name the rivers of their "homeland" in Romanian? Or should we say that Hungarian folk tales about Hungarian heroes fighting against seven-headed dragons living in the Carpathian Basin could prove a Daco-Hungarian continuity theory? Borsoka (talk) 13:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
- WP:PRIMARY sources are very easy to WP:CHERRYPICK: simply don't mention the sources you disagree with. That's why WP:SCIRS demands WP:SECONDARY sources (reviews). It is not our task to write literature reviews, we are not a channel for publishing original research, even one based upon WP:PRIMARY sources. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
- I've read those sources (everybody who's done research on the subject has read them) and they show nothing of the sort. A few movements of pockets of people within their ancestral homeland does not amount to mass migration. And, of course, you choose to ignore all the sources mentioning the presence of Dacians/Vlachs/Romanians in those territories (from Alexiad to the Gesta). As for the language, this is what Jordanes writes about the people who gave you your language (btw, modern-day Hungarians do NOT descend from either the Huns or the Magyars, as every DNA study has shown, like here or here; "Magyars imposed their language on Hungarians but seem not to have affected their genetic structure… These results suggest that the influence of Magyars on the Hungarian gene pool has been very low through both females and males and the Hungarian language could be an example of cultural dominance.") -- now here's Jordanes "There the unclean spirits, who beheld them as they wandered through the wilderness, bestowed their embraces upon them and begat this savage race, which dwelt at first in the swamps-- a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having NO LANGUAGE save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech. Such was the descent of the HUNS who came to the country of the Goths." So you see, there wasn't much there to borrow from by either the Dacians/Vlachs/Romanians or anyone else for that matter. In fact, Hungarian linguist Ferenc Bakos in his book "A magyar szókészlet román elemeinek története" (Akadémiai Kiadó, 1982) identifies more than 2,300 words that Hungarian borrowed FROM Romanian. That amounts to up to a QUARTER of your "active, basic vocabulary."--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- You've read those sources, and "nothing of the sort"? Borsoka just mentioned a few points, not exhaustively. You are encountering the subject in a heavy prejudicative way, regarding the subject already decided and over the controversial issues you pass through easily. Even deteriorating from the subject and "caring" about fantastic theories regarding Hungarians. Before you are planning to distribute i.e. Roxin-propaganda, just check i.e. what was adopted by the Romanians from the Hungarian language and a little bit do a research about Hungarian vocabulary, it's cardinality and other charachteristics. However, it seems in your world if some people, nations are judged seriously "scarcely human, and having NO LANGUAGE save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech", there is no doubt you could be able to cultivate i.e. those editors, that disagree with you in some questions :-).(KIENGIR (talk) 22:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC))
- Yes, I stand by what I said, "nothing of the sort". I don't know what "Roxin-propaganda" is, I don't see that name on either of the DNA studies I linked to or the documents I mentioned. That quote is from Jordanes, I didn't make it up. Again, as DNA research shows, you don't descend from those people, so no insult was intended. The point was about the Hun(garian) language in its original state. I don't speak Hungarian but I did read books on that issue and I quoted from a well-researched and well-argumented work by an established Hungarian linguist (published by the official publisher of the Hungarian Academy, if I'm not mistaken) to dispel any presumption of bias (actually, that's Wiki-proof info, you can put it in your Wiki article on the Hungarian language, if it's not there already).--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 00:24, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well, then I think you did not read/checked those sources carefully. The so-called "language" claim became distributed by a propagandist. I know where was the quote from, however, you've made an unprofessional, silly assertion regarding that. Again, this article and the topic was not about Hungarians, so I won't go into deeper reactions to that. Did you read the book? If you don't speak Hungarian, no problem, according to your adopted conclusion, you may easily understand the language in case - at least quarterly :-). Did you think about the a propagandistic conclusion of a fringe source - not the book itself, but the OR interpretation of it by some enthusiastic laymen presented in Romanian, i.e. - should be taken carefully? Do you know hat percentage or significance would have if you really care about the total number of number Hungarian words? Again, did you check the amount of words inthe Romanian language borrowed from Hungarian, and i.e. making a comparison? Or also did you check from what in a bigger-lower amount the Hungarian language borrowed from other languages or the the same regarding the Romanian language, and i.e. what assertions could be drawn regarding any foreign influence with less amazement? You think you have enough knowledge to state anything about "the Hungarian langugage in it's original state? Amazing....pfff.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2018 (UTC))
- I read those sources very carefully, only a Hungarian extremist (or a slave to that ideology) would still think that those "documents" amount to proof of a mass migration. And, again, you choose to completely dismiss all the sources directly contradicting your hypothesis, the many sources attesting to the presence of the Dacians/Vlachs/Romanians in those territories. My point about the Hungarian language was in direct rebuttal to your co-propogandanist's assertion that Romanians borrowed I don't know how many words and names from Hungarians. I claimed, with arguments, that the opposite probably happened. Yes, Jordanes was probably not fond of the Huns, but maybe he had a reason... Also, if there are any primary sources stating how rich and complex the Hun(garian) language was circa 5th century (before it borrowed most of its vocabulary from the neighbors) please present it if you have "enough knowledge". As for the eminent Hungarian linguist's work, I think it speaks for itself-- whether it was 2300 words or 1000 words, the borrowing still happened mostly in one direction-- from Romanian to Hungarian.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 03:57, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- (1) Oldest Romanian chronicles about the Romanians' northward migration to the "Hungarian land": Russo-Moldavian Chronicle and Cantacuzene Chronicle. (2) Archaeological evidence: how can archaeological finds from territories along rivers with Slavic, Hungarian, Turkic and German names prove the continuous presence of a Romance-speaking population? (3) Scholars about the Albanian loanwords in Romanian: Gottfried Schramm and Vladimir Orel. (4) Lack of Germanic loanwords in Romanian as a negative statement: ok, let's make positive statements. 4th-century 1Roman historians knew that the Romans had been withdrawn from Dacia; the Romanians adopted Slavic, Hungarian, Turkic place-names; the Romanians were known as a migratory pastoralist population for centuries (moreover, they paid tax on their sheep and they adopted their words for a settled way of life from the Bulgarians and Hungarians); there are contemporaneus sources about the settlement of Romanian groups in Hungary from the 14th century; the oldest Romanian chronicles wrote about their ancestors' northward migration to the "Hungarian land". How can you prove the continuity theory without making negative statements about these facts? (5) Romanian loanwords in Hungarian are connected to sheep and goat-breeding. Hungarian loanwords in Romanian are connected to a settled and organized way of life (hotar, adamana, razes...). (6) If you can refer to reliable sources stating that Sulzer's theory was driven by political motifs, please do not hesitate to use them to edit this article. The statement that the scholars of the Transylvanian School created the continuity theory, because they wanted to change the 17th- and 18th-century Transylvanian laws describing the Romanians as a newcommer population is based on reliable sources. Borsoka (talk) 08:07, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
@Borsoka:
(1) Oldest Romanian chronicles about the Romanians' northward migration to the "Hungarian land": Russo-Moldavian Chronicle and Cantacuzene Chronicle.
- Please detail this. What passage exactly is mentioning this. Also, where is the pre-condition (that there were no Romanians inhabiting the land already) necessary for you to support the migration hypothesis?
(2) Archaeological evidence: how can archaeological finds from territories along rivers with Slavic, Hungarian, Turkic and German names prove the continuous presence of a Romance-speaking population?
- really? How do you back your conclusion about Hungarian names? Especially for archaeological findings dating 7th, 6th or even 5th century BC? This will make for a very interesting reading. Or did history start with the Hungarian conquest (which nobody denies) of Pannonia and Transylvania?
As for how archaeology works in relation to history - for example, if we find a cemetery dating from 7th century BC, with tombstones inscribed both in Latin and in Slavic then the natural conclusion is that there were both people inhabiting the area. If we again find another cemetery dating 8th century BC, with Slavic and Latin tombstones, then the natural conclusion is that there were both Slavic and Latin(ised) people living together in those 2 centuries. See, this is how it works. The archaeological findings mark milestones in time, and you put the pieces together.
What archaeological findings can the migration theory claim (I mean you surely have some vestigial remains showing both the route and the time-frame of such migration, right? But as always, you are trying to validate a hypothesis by somehow invalidating another. No, it doesn't work this way. So I respectfully ask you to support migration (or slow-migration - whatever you wish) with archaeological findings.
But just for the record - archaeological remains that support the continuity theory exist. If we broaden our horizons to the villages where the population actually lived, one finds extensive, and important,
evidence. For example, the one industry which remained relatively unchanged (until the 5th or 6th century) was the ceramics industry. Monetary treasures at Alba Iulia, Alecus, Dimboa, Hunedoara, Jeledinti, Lapusnic, Reghin, Tiboau and Lisea. If the entire population pulled out of Dacia *during peacetime* , then why didn't they take their wealth with them.
Other important findings come in the form of tombstones or cemeteries. Also one can examine the 6th Century paleo-Christian pots lid discovered at Tibiscum; the fifth or sixth century Christian bronze earthen lamp (rush-light) discovered at Dej; the devotional cross found at Biertan is inscribed in Latin :"Ego Zenovius votum posui".
On the other hand, if people stayed behind, and then the barbarians started invading, it suddenly makes sense to bury one's wealth. The ceramic trail alone attests to the continuous survival of a culture.
In any case, it is also worth noting that the Roman withdrawal was not complete. As late as Justinian the Great's reign (483-565), the Empire still maintained fortifications on the Danube's northern bank.
(3) Scholars about the Albanian loanwords in Romanian: Gottfried Schramm and Vladimir Orel.
- You really paint a poor image of yourself if you keep peddling this. First of all it's quite irrelevant, as all languages in the area have borrowed extensively. So the burden of proof is on you not ONLY to show that words have been borrowed, but when and under what circumstances. Second - one can easily refute this by reading the article here, on Misplaced Pages, about the Romanian language:
"Thus, Romanian is scientifically very interesting from a linguistic and historical viewpoint, since Romance languages did not prevail in the other frontier regions of the Roman Empire in Europe, Asia and Africa; North Africa's falling under Arab sway may have played a role in the ultimate demise of Romance dialects. Also, the conservation in Romanian of these numerous vestiges of Latin military slang (sermo castrensis) – such as a (se)aține ("to waylay"), coif ("helmet"), împărat ("emperor"), a împresura ("to encircle with pressure"), a (se) (în)cumeta ("to venture"), a înțina ("to make thin a tree for its collapse on the invaders"), aținat ("made thin a tree"), mire "fiancé" (< Lat. miles "soldier", metonymy), a purcede ("to advance"), a răpune ("to kill"), rost "sense" a.s.o. (< Lat. rostrum "beak at prow of Roman warship"), (f)sat "village" (< Lat. fossatum "trench for defence", metonymy), șes "plain" (< Lat. sessus "plain place for camping", metonymy), a supune ("to subject"), tindă "veranda" (< Lat. tenda sub vallo "tent out of agglomerated fortress", metonymy), țară "homeland" (< Lat. terra "earth" ˃ Arom. țară "earth"), etc. and their absence in Aromanian (Balkan Romanian dialect spoken in peaceful area) – indicates the continuity of the Latinophones in the northern Danubian region, this despite dire and constant defensive wars with Germanic, "Turanian" (Turkic peoples and Magyars) and Slavic populations who entered and eventually settled there.
This linguistic evidence challenges the Roeslerian theory. The vestiges from Latin military slang particularize the Romanian language in the neolatin area, together with its isolated history. According to Cristian Mihail, the Roslerian theory is annihilated because of the fact that the Romanian words in common with the Albanian words do not preserve the sound "l" between vowels – in accordance, i.e. with Rom. "māgurā" and Alb. "magulë" etc. – likewise with Romanian words from Latin linguistic stratum (Rom. "scara" < Lat. "scala" etc.) unlike the words from Slavic later stratum, which preserve the sound "l" intervowels (cf. Rom. "mila", no "*mira" < Sl. "mila") would prove that the Romanian words in common with the Albanian words proceed of a latter stratum in Balkan region, near the Albanians, as supporting also by linguistics the continuity of the Latinophons (Romanians) in the Nordic-Danubian region."
So go fast and edit this article...
(4) Lack of Germanic loanwords in Romanian as a negative statement: ok, let's make positive statements. 4th-century 1Roman historians knew that the Romans had been withdrawn from Dacia; the Romanians adopted Slavic, Hungarian, Turkic place-names; the Romanians were known as a migratory pastoralist population for centuries (moreover, they paid tax on their sheep and they adopted their words for a settled way of life from the Bulgarians and Hungarians); there are contemporaneus sources about the settlement of Romanian groups in Hungary from the 14th century; the oldest Romanian chronicles wrote about their ancestors' northward migration to the "Hungarian land". How can you prove the continuity theory without making negative statements about these facts?
- Care to back up those "facts"? Also, you keep mentioning the Roman retreat. Yes, nobody disputes that - but what is the relevance of that? As pointed out several times, the administration and legions retreated (although, as I already mentioned, a small military presence remained north of the Danube). But people lived in villages, villas and to some extent in cities. For everything else - back them! As for Romanians settling Transylvania later - tough luck. It's not enough to show that groups of Romanians came to Transylvania in whatever century you wish (12th, 15th, 21st etc). You also need to show there were no Romanians there already (which, coincidentally, even Gesta mentions - and it's irrelevant that Gesta is or not reliable as far as dates and people and other stuff go, the point is why would it mention them AT ALL if there were none there already?)
As opposed to you, proving the daco-roman continuity is based precisely on that - so there is no need to make negative statements. It's like a film - you know what that is? If we have enough frames then you can reasonably build enough of the film to make sense out of it. Which is not the case with the migration, or slow migration hypothesis - or at least I challenge you to show us the pieces of puzzle.
(5) Romanian loanwords in Hungarian are connected to sheep and goat-breeding. Hungarian loanwords in Romanian are connected to a settled and organized way of life (hotar, adamana, razes...).
- So? First of all, it's OK with you to apply some logic (debunked) to the "Albanian-Romanian" connection but... not for the Hungarian-Romanian connection? How come? Using your own logic, it seems only reasonable to suggest that simply because Hungarian has sheep and goat breeding loanwords they must have met Romanians when they came to Transylvania, and after conquering the territory and imposing a certain administration the Romanians, naturally, borrowed the specific loanwords from Hungarian. By the way, I am totally lost on the "adamana" word.
On another note you show a really poor understanding of what transhumance means. Again, go check the article here on Misplaced Pages. And feel free to edit it and say that of course, transhumance does NOT apply to Vlach shepherds because... reasons. The gist of it is that it's a seasonal migration. So they go up in the mountains during the summer, and come back to the plains during the winter. More importantly is that it's not the WHOLE family/community that travels with the sheeps, so to speak. They have a permanent settlements - call them whatever you want. They have "bases of operations" both in the mountains and, even more importantly, in the plains.
(6) If you can refer to reliable sources stating that Sulzer's theory was driven by political motifs, please do not hesitate to use them to edit this article. The statement that the scholars of the Transylvanian School created the continuity theory, because they wanted to change the 17th- and 18th-century Transylvanian laws describing the Romanians as a newcommer population is based on reliable sources.
- So, we're at it again with the deliberate misleading and misinformation? The Transylvanian School did not CREATE the Daco-Roman continuity theory (again, read the article, and afterwords as usual edit it to fit your views - there's a whole campaign on it) since the theory was thought in the Austro-Hungarian empire at least until the 19th century - ergo it existed, and was thought, before the mere concept of Transylvanian School came into being. I do have to wonder how come the Daco-Roman continuity was pounding people into accepting that Romanians were living on the land of Transylvania and Hungary since time immemorial, in the context of a continuous migration. I mean the social pressure must have been enormous, to make people see those shepherd emigrants, who were coming in such huge numbers, as the original inhabitants of the land. Surely there must have been a good reason to do this - one that unfortunately I am unaware of. But I am sure you will provide us with a reasonable explanation, heck, maybe even a positive statement, of why such a logical conundrum would exist in Hungary / the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
As for mr. Franz Joseph Sulzer:
- He was an amateur historian, who decided that his knowledge is enough to warrant a study on the origin of Romanians. He did no original research on the matter, but used only existing sources which he either agreed or disagreed with.
- you can also check the Wikipage on him and (again, go and edit it to eliminate this...) see his conflict with Ipsilanti, after which he decided to, in good Dracula-like fashion, write a little piece of fiction berating the Romanian people.
- seriously now - it's enough to quote his own work - the highlight being an argument in the favour of his hypothesis which is... wait for it... Politial! Yep, Pure political. The current political situation of the Romanians represents one of the premise for his statement - being that their condition (treated almost like slaves, even by the "later arrival" ethnics) comes into conflict with them being presumably the original inhabitants of the land. (na: like that has never happened before, the conquerors treating the aborigines like slaves... hard to imagine, right? we couldn't possibly find such cases in history, right?)
Therefore, in a truly amazing spectacle of logic, he concludes that they must have NOT been in Transylvania, and came later than the Hungarians, BECAUSE they are treated like slaves. WOW!. Moreover, he resorts to willingly mistranslation. In a source he cites, mentioning that two Romanian voievozi (Litovoi and Seneslau) would no longer hold their lands who have been under their rule for so long. But because that would go against his premises (of Romanian migration) he magically transforms that to mean "would no longer hold their lands who have been under their rule for the past 3-4 years" by mistranslating the word "hactenus" to mean "3-4 years ago", instead of "for so long".
Bring it on Borsoka, I start to like this.Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- adding a brief note to the comments by another editor (see above), re. Letopisetul Cantacuzinesc -- I asked that Hungarian fellow before (on several occasions) to come up with contemporaneous accounts of that "migration" he speaks of and yet he can only provide sources that were written hundreds of years (500 years in this case) after the fact. A few things to note about this piece, in no particular order: it was written in the context of the political conflict between Cantacuzino and the Baleanu boyar family; it was meant to portray an "origin" story for Cantacuzino, a Phanariote with Byzantine origins (that is, SOUTH of the Danube), so no wonder he talks about (his) people coming from there; strangely, the pockets of Vlachs (Romanians) crossing the Danube due North do not encounter any resistance at all, they just take over some of the richest land in Europe like they own it, starting to build cities, churches, what have you, at their hearts' desires with no resistance at all, while just a few decades earlier, as mentioned in the Alexiad, no one could cross the Danube without facing a fierce enemy, the "Dacians"-- all this to say that the only reason there was no resistance is because other Romanians (Dacians) already lived there; finally, there's the inconvenient (for immigrationists) story of Radu Negru Voda (a Romanian ruler from Fagaras, Transylvania) and his cohorts actually traveling North to South, the opposite way.--23.83.37.154 (talk) 07:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, it seems the editors are quick to remind us of various WP:... rules but forget to abide by WP:PROVEIT, WP:BURDEN, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability in general.Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- In certain respects, experienced Misplaced Pages editors are a hive mind. You cannot therefore win a war against WP:PAGs. As for WP:PROVEIT and 500 years after the fact, Misplaced Pages editors do not make the call, WP:SCHOLARSHIP makes the call, see also WP:OR. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:51, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- Iovaniorgovan, I see so anyone who does not agree with you is judged as an "extremist". Fine. I did not dismiss anything, I just told you did not read carefully or interpreted properly them, without the necessary objectivity. I don't know who would be my "co-propagandist"??. If is a fact that Romanians borrowed from Hungarians, as well the opposite happened, and you did not claimed only what you assert now, but weird conlcusions on the effect of the vocabulary. The complexity of the Hungarian language (that you practically equal with the language of the Huns) in the 5th century to be asserted by a source of an overdid, faboulus, pretentious negative description is the most amateur and unprofessional thing that you can do. The same goes for your statement: "before it borrowed most of its vocabulary from the neighbors". Did you ever check a statistic about the Hungarian vocabulary (or more)? Don't worry, I present the problems of your deductions...again, regarding the "eminent Hungarian linguist's work", it was never debated that Hungarians borrowed from Romanians, what was debated the conclusion and the weird evaluations and assertions regarding this.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC))
- @Kiengir -- Well, I exaggerated little, for effect:-) My bad. I do try to be objective and I've been schooled in science, which is why I always open my arguments here with the DNA studies because they're the most objective and cut through the historical muck. Once I have a clear & factual starting point then I can look at the historical sources in the proper light and dismiss those that don't agree with the facts. For instance, the theory/hypothesis that the Romanians formed as an ethnicity in the first millennium somewhere in the Balkans (popular with some Hungarians) has been proven completely false (see DNA study I linked to above). Also, the question of "who was first in Transylvania", has been answered beyond a reasonable doubt by that same study. For what it's worth... I'm not here to discuss politics, I'm only interested in history. Once I have a solid ground to stand on I start looking at the other options and see what "sources" best fit the "facts", what "sources" don't fit the "facts" and why. Etc, etc. Like I said, I don't know for sure what the state of the Hun language was in the 5th century AD, but (right now) I'm inclined to believe that Jordanes was not completely off the mark. If you present evidence (primary sources) to the contrary I'm willing to change my mind about it. It's not something that's set in stone for me. I go where the evidence takes me. And, sure, I agree that there was probably two-way borrowing going on between the two languages, I just don't think that Romanian borrowed all that much from Hungarian (that was in response to that other editor's comments, see above). Naturally, if the Germans or the Hungarians founded a city/settlement and named it, then the Romanians most likely used that same name. Else, they used names given by themselves (like Satu Mare, Mures, etc). As for the "co-propagandist" swipe, I guess that was a little out of line. I thought you guys were in cahoots or something (what with replying for one another) but I just went through the backlog of the "talk" pages here and saw that this other guy has been at it for years (!!), asking the same questions, getting the same answers, to no effect, going around in circles. It's like arguing with a machine. Waste of time. Anyway, all the best.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 08:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- It's not our task to weigh evidence, our task is to weigh modern scholarly sources. As I told you, one WP:PRIMARY source does not weigh very much, it is not our task to write reviews. If you keep insisting that a WP:PRIMARY has established WP:THETRUTH, you have a WP:CIR problem and you should be banned from editing and discussing articles which concern the history of Eastern Europe. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ivaniorgovan, according of the indication of the other editors and as you quitted, I also intend to end this discussion with this final asnwer. Probably almost everybody tries to evaulate everything on that pattern or "holy" matter as you describe, despite there was, are and will be many arguments, as even some evidence or facts are judged differently sometimes. I.e. be careful with the DNA studies, since if a population is coming on another population, admixture happens very possibly, and after more waves it is hardly to say who, when and where was first, especially in Europe where the moving, mixing of peoples, cultures, languages were very intense and versatile, at least I disagree as it would be one and only fixpoint correlate from, thus I disagree about the exlusion regarding the ethnogenesis of the Romanians i.e. in the Balkans. Also I did not tell Iordanes should be dismissed all the way, I just pinpointed that regardless of a suggested relation of Huns and Hungarians, especially a few more hundred years the landtaking Magyars and their language is not such a direct reference point. As for the adoption of words regarding Romanian or Hungarian, you may easily check existing statistics and calculate with them. Regarding the names, the name Satu Mare was given in 1925. Mures was the most possible adopted by the directly or by intermediation from Slavic. If more topics or question are coming up, people may explain or raise them more times. All the best as well.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:02, 23 April 2018 (UTC))
- Two quick points: DNA studies do exactly that: calculate admixture. If mtDNA from the Middle Neolithic almost precisely matches modern-day Romanian DNA then there was (little to) no admixture. Case closed. As for Satu Mare, please read a wiki primer here-- there are whole books written about the city but since we're on wiki... Cheers!--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 00:08, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu Good job laying out the traffic rules at Wiki. Will try to not get a ticket.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 06:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- Still does not necessarily applies to location. I know the Satu Mare article. Bye(KIENGIR (talk) 20:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC))
- @Iovaniorgovan: Truth is that there is only one editor who can get you banned from Misplaced Pages, that editor is you. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
DNA studies can not confirm that Romance speakers (as the direct ancestors of Romanians were called in medieval era: the Vlachs) existed in the area before the high medieval period. Vast majority of modern Romanians (especially in Wallachia) have the very same Balkanic genetic mixture as the Bulgarians and Southern Serbians. It is very hard to genetically distinguish these populations. (The Slavic element in Serbia had lesser impact in the Serbian Genetics, than the ancient balkanic genetic heritage, modern-day Bulgarians had only a small conqueror elite which gave the name of Bulgaria, but the population genetically remained mostly local) Itself the fact, that the population of ancient Dacia has the very similar East-Balkanic genetic admixture like these above mentioned modern-day nations can not prove that Romance speaker Vlachs had any continuity (or more relationship than the genetic ancestors of Bulgarian population and Southern Serbian population. Therefore if we take seriously the migration theory, the migration of the genetically East Balkanic Vlachs to modern-day Romania, these typical East Balkanic genetic results wouldn't be really different than the genetics of ancient Dacian population. We must also know that the genetics of modern Moldavians Wallachian Romanians and Transylvanian Romanians are different genetically. Moldavians are much more Eastern Slavic, Wallachians genetically are the same as East Balkanic nations, Transylvanian Romanians have more Central - European genetics. Therefore only the Wallachian Romanians have East-Balkanic genetic similarity with Dacian era populations. If the ancestors of Romance speaking Vlachs had lived constantly on the Dacian area (The Daco-Roman continuity theory) even after the Roman withdrawal, they wouldn't could preserve their purely East-Balkanic type genetic admixture heritage, due to the centuries admixture of brutal conquerors (Goths, Huns, Longobards, Carpians, Gepids). But Vallachian-Romanians do not have the genetic heritage of these conqueror populations. (these mixture genetic with the conquerors would make them genetically more Central European, more distant from the original East-Balkanic herritage of Wallachian-Romanians.) Logical conclusion: Slavo-Romance mixed speaker Vlachs (the direct ancestors of Wallachian Romanians according to the migration theory) must have migrated from the Balkans in the high medieval era, this is the only possibility that they have similar East-Balkanic type of admixture like Dacians. (I still do not consider Wallachian Romanians genetically closer to Dacians than the other Genetically close East-Balkanic people like Bulgarians or the genetically East-Balkanic Southern Serbians. The ancient East-Balkanic genetic heritage was reintroduced/restored by the high medieval migration of other genetically East-Balkanic Vlach population in the territory of modern -day Wallachian Romania.--Filederchest (talk) 07:25, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- You're all over the place with your comments and you obviously need a briefer course in DNA. First off, feel free to post the links to the DNA studies that support your assertions. I have done so with mine, and they clearly disprove EVERYTHING you say. Just because different people lived in the same regions does NOT necessarily imply admixture, as the DNA study I posted shows. There's another recent study by a German team of ancient DNA of Egyptian mummies-- "Johannes Krause, a University of Tubingen paleogeneticist and an author of the study, said the major finding was that “for 1,300 years, we see complete genetic continuity. ”Despite repeated conquests of Egypt, by Alexander the Great, Greeks, Romans, Arabs and Assyrians — the list goes on — ancient Egyptians showed little genetic change.“ So this shows in yet another example that it's quite possible to not have admixture despite constant invasions. The other big surprise,” Krause said, “was we didn't find much sub-Saharan African ancestry.” What the study found was "that ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in the Levant, as well as to Neolithic ANATOLIAN and European populations (Fig. 5a,b). When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested." So, you see, those ancient ANATOLIAN people did not mix, just like the Vlachs/Romanians (who are, according to the study I linked to, POSSIBLY related to that Anatolian population and hence perhaps living by the same laws; in fact, the Lege Valachorum prohibited marriage with foreigners) did not mix much (at least as mtDNA is concerned, though a bit more on the Y-DNA, as expected due to wars, etc). Now here's another DNA study that shows just how homogenous the Romanian population is and regardless of whether they live North or South of the Carpathians there are some differences, obviously, but they are relatively small "However, this limitation is weak at most, without a strong Northern and Southern Carpathian Mountains mitochondrial haplogroup differentiation". This again disproves your hypothesis. There are Y-DNA studies as well, like the one mentioned in the study above, but even "among these, one study assessing the variability of the Y-chromosome has proposed that... the population structure of the Carpathian basin is relatively homogenous". So there you have it. Either way you look at it the results are pretty clear. Your entire hypothesis is based on the assumption that people occupying the same territory = major admixture, which has already been proven wrong. Also, keep in mind that the Dacians and the Thracians were, according to all ancient sources, related and spoke similar languages so one should expect Romanian DNA to cluster with Balkan DNA. However, they're clearly distinguishable, as you can see in ALL studies ever taken. I assume you're Hungarian, so here's a DNA study for you here, which shows that "Consistent with previous studies, Hungarian-speaking populations are genetically closely related to their geographic neighbours. The Hungarian and Szekler groups cluster together with some other central Europeans (e.g. Czechs and Slovaks), but MAINLY with Balkan populations.” I realize that this comes as a shock to your programming but, as they say, maybe it's time to unplug. Happy readings! p.s. the "Carpians" you mention were actually Free Dacians and they're still all over Moldavia/Moldova to this day, going by the same name (Carp/Carpian); how's that for continuity?.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 00:16, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- To wit, you lump together the Balkans like they're one big population with no genetic difference between their respective countries or nationalities. That's completely wrong, and only a cursory research will reveal that much. I'm not here to teach you what DNA is and how to read DNA studies, you should do that on your own and then come back informed. Besides, it's frowned upon on these pages to talk about DNA research (see thread above). So I'll be brief, with just one example-- go to the Wiki page on the Genetic Studies on Bulgarians and see for yourself. On the Y-DNA side, they found "The overall profile of 808 Bulgarian samples, according to a level of phylogenetic analysis calculating distribution of hgs R1a1a7, R1а1, R1b1a2, R2a, I, E1b1, E1b1b1, E1b1b1a, E1b1b1b, J2b, J2a, J2a1b, J1, G, T, NO, C, H, Q, L, A and B, is positioned nearest to the Romanians per 147 their samples, also backed by studies as early as 2000. However the analysis of the Bulgarian study showed inaccuracy in some aspects using population datasets which proved to contain genetic drift according to alternative more extensive studies on these populations. Furthermore, the analysis did not even involve the populations Macedonians, Serbians, Montenegrins and Slovaks. It is unclear why the extensive datasets and the most proximal Slavic populations to the Bulgarians were excluded from the phylogenetic analysis of the Bulgarian study selectively. The study of the 149 Romanians by whose data they came out most proximal to Bulgarians concludes that Romanians are closer to Ukrainians and Hungarians than to the Bulgarian group sampled by the study." My note: as expected, seeing as modern-day Hungarians are (according to all DNA studies) Magyarized Europeans (including Magyarized Romanians, obviously), and the Ukraine was occupied in the past by Scythian tribes, many of which were related to the Dacians/Getae (like the Thyssagetae, and even the Massagetae at some point; Sarmatians were most likely of the same race, too). As for the mtDNA study, which is more important here, "According to the largest-scale mtDNA Bulgarian study involving 996 Bulgarian samples, comparing distribution of hgs H, H5, HV, HV0, R0a, J, U1, U2, U2e, U3, U4, U5a, U5b, U6, U7, U8, K, N1, N2, X, M, Т1, Т2, the Bulgarians came out nearest to the Poles, followed by Ukrainians, Croats, Czechs, while neighbouring Turks, Romanians and Greeks remained more or very distant." That goes to show that, for all our similarities, there are still BIG differences between these ethnicities (for better or worse, I'm not making any judgement here; big love to everyone), something that's easy to pick up on by any DNA expert. And that's the case with that Middle-Neolithic study I mentioned. There's only one population in modern-day Europe that perfectly fits the genetic fingerprint of that ancient people, and that's the Romanians. Moreover, the two closely related populations, 4000-5000 years removed, just happen to live on the exact same territory. If you don't understand this much... Anyway, like I said, I may get kicked off of Wiki for posting about DNA so please do the research on your own, with an open mind and devoid of prejudices and you'll find the truth there eventually, I'm sure. All the best.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 09:25, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- As I said, WP:PRIMARY sources are very easy to twist: simply don't mention those which disagree with you. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:59, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed. So isn't it time to downgrade the immigrationist "theory" to a "hypothesis"? As far as I'm concerned it should be "fringe", but I'm not the one making the call.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:36, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- The continuity thesis fares no better, believe me. Just because you hear it more often, it would not mean that it would be more supported. Other people hear the immigrationist thesis more often, that's the difference. Tgeorgescu (talk) 08:37, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Iovaniorgovan, I agree with Tgeorgescu. You still believe too much your "own proofs", and as well ignore those points we already discussed, seems like a bit "post hoc ergo propter hoc". Regarding Hungarians - as you mentioned them - of course they are related to their neighbors since, instead of parts of the today's Croatian border, parts - more or less - were part of Hungary and they were in the same genetic pool. However we should not enter on those debates that what genes are assigned to what groups and what kind of considerations are attached to that, since it is always twofold that who could be source.(KIENGIR (talk) 08:51, 2 May 2018 (UTC))
- Well, I disagree. The historical evidence, as well as the Wiki-acceptable sources, is overwhelmingly favoring continuity. I don't know how you can see it otherwise. As for genetics, there's no "twofold" way about it. Again, I don't think you have a clue about how genetics work. Even in today's state of "admixture", given a relatively sizable sample there's no way for a specialist to mistake Romanian DNA for Hungarian DNA or Bulgarian DNA, or whatever. Hungarians represent a culture more than an ethnicity. Here's another DNA study of Hungarians showing the same thing: "Conclusion: “"Magyars imposed their language on Hungarians but seem not to have affected their genetic structure… These results suggest that the influence of Magyars on the Hungarian gene pool has been very low through both females and males and the Hungarian language could be an example of cultural dominance."" Every DNA study ever done on Hungarians shows the same thing: you do not descend from the Huns/Magyars but rather you're a mix of Magyarized Europeans (Slovaks, Romanians, Germans, Bulgarians, Gypsies, etc), a mix that's still in the process of formation. So how exactly would the Romanians have gotten their particular DNA fingerprint in your "theory"? That same DNA fingerprint present in Transylvania more than 4000 years ago? That same DNA fingerprint present fairly homogeneously across all Romanian territories? Do you realize how little sense you're making or you're just here to troll? You Hungarians are clearly, by any measure, a very young and still forming European people and yet this is not reflected in the Wiki page of "Origin of the Hungarians" (which redirects to "Hungarian prehistory" and has a blank Genetics section). Shouldn't you be more concerned with tending your own garden than trolling these pages?--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 08:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Without to wish to repeat myself, I disagree that historical evidence or something else would "overwhelmingly favoring continuity". My reasons I explained already. Despite this page is about the origin of the Romanians, you care too much about Hungarians. A bit surpised about Bulgarians and Gypsies with such an emphasis :) I think also others before me expressed their opinions, I don't need to repeat, you may read them again. Again, what you see/measure today, is a result of a long way process, tending to assumptions of an early state, where the assignment of some charasteristics in a broad term are based on assumptions or designations by a recent consensus. Debates may be on this, and once a consensus of an assigment is debated or changed, than what was considered to belong to subject "A" will belong to subject "B" and present observational distribution may be challenged by causality. It is just about now which genetic markers are considered to belong a group of people and/or which is present and where in present-day populations and/or what hy written history we believe/assume about the movement of people of nations. If you don't understand what I mean, just check the Scythian/Indo-European debate/confusion, the major shift in the historiography of the romantic nationalism in the 18th-19th centuries when the earlier long-standing standpoints and facts where totally distorted, reinterpreted and they are keeping even today, regardless of many unexplainable confusions and back in time contradicting contemporary evaluation and sources everything is judged differently, but I could the same way mention the Finno-Ugrian theory, that simply does not match with genetic studies. Excuse me, but I cannot take serious such statements like "You Hungarians are clearly, by any measure, a very young...", since Hungary is one of the oldest existing countries, however, no doubt the Hungarians mixed with other people since they contacted with many nations, and we could say the language and cultural preservation was a significant element also in this process. About the questionable and dangerous interpretation of genetic studies also others warned you before. Your harsh accusations about "trolling" I have to refuse, you generated a discusssion that once you said you have finished, but it seems not. I you cannot bear different opinions like yours, sorry, it is not my fault.(KIENGIR (talk) 09:25, 3 May 2018 (UTC))
@KIENGIR: "Despite this page is about the origin of the Romanians, you care too much about Hungarians." - Really? The irony of what you just said escapes you, right? This article has been vandalised for a long time by Hungarian editors. How come so much interest? I would expect a natural interest from Romanian editors, but Hungarian editors? Why would an article explaining the Romanian origins have multiple Hungarian editors? How come this subject is of such interest for Hungarians? What does the Hungarian state teach you in school? That the Daco-Roman Continuity theory is false. Biased much?Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- This page is about the Origin of the ROMANIANS, and yet you Hungarians are here in force. For what reasons, you should ask yourselves... If I cared too much about Hungarians I'd be trolling the Origin of the Hungarians page (I just had a look and there's a LOT missing on that page, including the Genetics studies, as I've mentioned before). I only bring up Hungarians because the only foreign contributors here are Hungarians. Do you see any other people posting here? Bulgarians? Turks? Ukranians? No. Just Hungarians... for some reason. That says more about you than us. Food for thought. When you post repeated comments with NOTHING to back them up, just expressing your OPINIONS, and even those in poorly constructed "arguments", then you can forgive me for accusing you of "trolling". Didn't mean to sound harsh, but sometimes there's just no other way to put it (there's also a difference between a "troll" and someone just "trolling", you understand?) Anyway, what exactly are you trying to accomplish here? The historical arguments you just mentioned, which actually I agree with, in the main, do not really apply to the argument I made. If you don't "get it", please read again what I wrote. And I said that Hungarians are a young "people"-- it's clear in the context that it's meant as "ethnicity", not "nation." The two concepts are not necessarily related. You try to downplay the significance of these recent DNA studies (maybe because they contradict everything you believe?) but you do it out of a position of ignorance-- which is okay, no one is an expert in everything. However, it's difficult to have a discussion at this level, and this is not the right forum for it. That was my earlier point, which is why I will really try to end it here. So let me state this here in no uncertain terms: the recent DNA studies (of which I only mentioned a couple) have completely, unequivocally and irreversibly proved Romanian continuity on current territories, while completely and irreversibly disproving the "immigrationist hypothesis". No amount of future denying, equivocating, or plain "cultural terrorism" (to use a term coined by your compatriot György Lukács) can change this fact. The only reason we're still talking about it here is because Wiki has certain rules-- as clearly outlined by Tgeorgescu on these pages-- and in general the academia is very slow moving (it has its own interests to preserve and protect). That may take a year or two but it's inevitable, the dam is breaking. In the meantime you can behave like Scrat, that proto squirrel from Ice Age 2, trying its hardest to plug every fresh hole in the ice dam, when the end result is inevitable. But how you choose to spend your time is your business. I sincerely wish you the best.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 12:10, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
@Iovaniorgovan: The whole article has been hijacked. Take a look at the history of it, at one point the information was presented in a very structured way. Even though the migration hipothesys was mentioned (a thing I do not object to) it was obvious how "well supported" is because of how the article was strcutured. Today's article is, in my oppinion, deliberately misleading and covering for the lack of evidence for the migration/admigration. It has been deliberately (again check the history and archives) by mainly Borsoka - who is of course a neutral, objective and non biased (even though he grew up "knowing" that the Daco-Roman continuity theory is false - a thing he learned in school). And well... disappointment all around. The only one here who should be a counter balance, Tgeorgescu - with all due respect, arbitrarily applies WP rules, or he is more concerned that the Hungarian Irredentist article does mention the educational program of Hungarian schools. The gist of this is the article is poorly structured, deliberately misleading, lacks a neutral point of view, respects some WP rules (that are convenient for the editors) but not others. Form my point of view, this being an encyclopedia and not a cooking blog, where otherwise opinions are welcomed, should first and foremost obey the burden of proof. You can make a statement - how about backing it up. Then you go to the reputable sources and such.Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree. And you can clearly see the double standard applied between the Origin of the Romanians page and the Origin of the Hungarians page. Where's the consistency? Even though I also see Tgeorgescu's points, in some ways, it's just a matter of emphasis. As is, equal weight is given to both theories, which is not fair by any standards of proof. On a side note, you might want to sign your comments here because Tgeorgescu reported me for "At Talk:Origin of the Romanians many IPs have shown up, advancing the same POV in the same style as Special:Contributions/Iovaniorgovan," etc. In other words Tgeorgescu appears to lump together everyone who contests the "immigrationist" hypothesis or his way of handling the page content and is trying hard to get us blocked. Nice guy otherwise.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 09:10, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Iovaniorgovan, @Tgeorgescu Yes, my bad. I apologise about this, never meant to be drawn up in this.There we go, I hope I signed all my statements (hope I didn't miss any).Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- As Wikipedians, our allegiance isn't to a country/nation, our allegiance is to WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. For us, truth means what mainstream scholars say is true. If no WP:RS/AC has been reached, we tell it in our articles. And no consensus can be reached, simply because 1000 years of (Proto)Romanian history are missing from the record. This is not a conspiracy against my country, it is simply the way things are. About "may take a year or two": don't make promises you cannot keep; do not make promises in the name of third parties. According to WP:BALL and Benjiboi, "Misplaced Pages is behind the ball – that is we don't lead, we follow – let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements and find NPOV ways of presenting them if needed." Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:04, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu - Sure, I completely agree with this (the quote). Nevertheless this is an encyclopedia - not an opinion blog, and as such the burden of proof is enforced. And the burden of proof come BEFORE all the other WP:RULES that are thrown around here. Editors, it seems, simply " disagree that historical evidence " (mainly Hungarian editors - who of course, although thought in school that the Daco-Romanian Continuity theory is false, are in no way whatsoever biased... Just look at Borsoka, throwing around the same "arguments" even if he is shown repeatedly that those statements are wrong/false.).
- So what gives? Is selectively and arbitrarily applying WP:RULES a sign of a balanced, neutral and objective editing? Do rules apply the same for everyone, of some rules apply when the editor "agrees" or "disagrees"? Is this an encyclopedia or a medium to push fringe ideas for the sake of balance? Example: Even today there are people who believe, sincerely, that the earth is Flat. Shouldn't Misplaced Pages, by your own standards, be allowed to present this as a competing and "well supported" theory among others? How about Creationism? Maybe the page dedicated to Evolution should contain more Creationism, for the sake of balance (instead of a page dedicated to the controversy - one which is too complex, evidently, to be treated in a couple of short and unsupported statements). Or maybe Climate change denial. Surely that should be presented as a competing (and well supported) theory along with Climate Change.
- Please go check Britannica. Read about the origin of Romanians - and although the "migration" hypothesis is mentioned, the encyclopedia chooses to present the Daco-Roman Continuity. Does that make you think about things? Can you read between the lines? Surely such a source, that openly states there are indeed evidences (archaeological and written) supporting continuity, as well as the fact that when the Hungarians conquered Transylvania there were indeed both Slav and Proto-Romanian "voievodate". Surely Britannica qualifies as a reputable source, and surely this lands the death nail in the "migration" hipothesys.
- "Between the 10th and 14th centuries new political formations emerged in the Carpathian-Danube region. The Hungarians, who had settled in Pannonia at the end of the 9th century and who entered Dacia in the 10th century, overwhelmed the Slavic-Romanian duchies, or voivodates, that they encountered there. "Cealicuca (talk) 10:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Cealicuca, I really don't understand what kind of "irony would escape me" (from what?). I don't know of any "long time vandalism by Hungarian editors". I suppose mainly editors from Romania or Hungary are interested since the two nations share history on a common location where they live up today. Just for curiosity, could you support you statement with something i.e. what would be taught in the Hungarian schools? Anyway, your overexaggerated conspiracy-theories I am not interested and I agree again with Tgeorgescu, in WP editors has not bounded by nationality or whatsoever, they are Wikipedians.
- Iovaniorgovan, I don't know about such thing that "Hungarians would be at force" or similar. I did not check entirely if there would be any editor of a different supposed nationality, however, it is irrelevant anyway, just see earlier comments. However I've met with editors with supposedly different nationality in many Romania or Hungary related articles, but again, WP is not about this, and without a honest self-declaration - or even with that - you cannot judge people's nationality here. With such like "NOTHING to back them up, just expressing your OPINIONS, and even those in poorly constructed "arguments", I disagree, this is your opinion and I still advice you not to focus on personal issues. However, thanks for your clarification. We are discussing here and yes, maybe it is better to read back former arguments than to repeat them again if we do not agree if they were applied properly or not. I've met with many DNA research - and excuse me, I don't agree I would be "completely ignorant" - also the same way could be concluded fantastic theories about Hungarians and how many thousand years ago they would be present, etc. but as you see I don't promote them, because I know about those things things that I tried you to enlight. Shortly: an observational distribution in a present time and it's comparison to an earlier epoch will always be dependent of the initial assigment of the supposed variables and their designations, including as well the location parameter, as well included other parameters that are unceartain. You may conclude partially what is today the situation, what surely what belongs to whom and who was the source and who was borrowing will always have an uncertainty level. If something does not add up according to the accepted/famous theories, explanations are created of the reason, that may be true or not (again, like the Finno-Ugrian theory, or other problems I mentioned before). I am sorry if you don't understand this. Such statements like "the recent DNA studies (of which I only mentioned a couple) have completely, unequivocally and irreversibly proved Romanian continuity on current territories, while completely and irreversibly disproving the "immigrationist hypothesis"." clearly shows that you are fully accepting and believing something, that current (overall) science could not be able to prove. As for your "Ice age" tale I can reflect that you introduce a study of the similarity of the Romanians regardless they are in the north of south claiming as an evidence to support your standpoint, however there is no surpise i.e. in case the same people are migrating to more locations. You can interpet it also that way. The same goes for your orther argumentation that "because some research shows that Romanians would be closer to Hungarians and Ukrainians than Bulgarians" today (my addition), it would prove your standpoint and you even explain them by ad-hoc assumptions like "occupied by Scythian tribes, many of which were related to the Dacians/Getae" and you immediately equal Dacians/Getae as the ancestors of the Romanians, although it is not proven, just an assumption, meanwhile you dismiss the huge effect of Slavs on Romanians, Hungarians, but with a high stress pattern regarding the historical Moldova. The same way you handle Hungarians "who could only borrow everything from it's neighbors". I recommend you to check how the ancestry, origin, language or the race of the Huns or Scythians were classified until the 18th-19th century and/or if the reason of their re-classification are solid or dubious or based on further scholar assumptions that became accepted but as well criticized. Then you will understand hopefully how dangerous is to excommunicate some "ultimate proofs" of origin. All the best as well.(KIENGIR (talk) 13:09, 4 May 2018 (UTC))
- @Kiengir, the DNA studies have to be taken all together in consideration in order to paint a clear picture. The "homogeneity" study I mentioned showed very slight (neighboring) influences in the respective main Romanian territories, but not enough to say they are distinct from one another. In fact, the opposite is true, they are all fairly homogenous, which should tell you one thing: traditionally, the Romanians have NOT mixed much at all despite the various influences (Austrians, Magyars and forced Magyarization, Russians and forced Slavicization, the Turks, etc) over hundreds of years. I added some of my comments to explain the findings, I didn't plan to write an end-all dissertation on the subject (I didn't mention the Slavic influence because, while not as major as some would think, it did play a factor obviously and it's a well-known fact). This "homogeneity" is, again, in accord with the study that finds present-day Romanians very closely related (not just genetically but also culturally, as evidenced by pottery patterns, shapes, etc) to the Middle-Neolithic people living in the same territories. That Middle-Neolithic presence is the anchor, as it were. The Romanians were already formed as a people back then. End of. If you say that Romanians later migrated "in toto" to the South and then migrated "in toto" back to their original territories (with minimal genetic admixture over millennia), then you have a hell of an argument on your hands-- extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... which you don't have because it doesn't exist. So I'll take Occam's razor: we've been here all along.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 11:55, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
- @KIENGIR"Despite this page is about the origin of the Romanians, you care too much about Hungarians." So it's not OK for a Romanian to be concerned about Hungarians editing the Origin of Romanians article, but it is perfectly fine for a Hungarian to be concerned in the origin of... Romanians? Is it more clear now?
- "I suppose mainly editors from Romania or Hungary are interested since the two nations share history on a common location where they live up today." - You suppose wrong. If it were Transylvania - sure, I could agree you with. But it's totally not understandable the level of voluntary non-academic interest the Hungarians show regarding the Origin of Romanians - overexagerated conspiracy or not. And you know why? Because Hungarians, the same people that display stamps with "Greater Hungary" on their cars 100 years from Trianon, are susceptible to bias.
- The Hungarian educational program is concerned (yet another piece of irony) with "proving" that the Daco-Roman Continuity theory is false. This is my claim (and it ties up nicely with point 1) - this is what you wanted me to support? Would a public voluntary admission of such from a Hungarian national suffice?Cealicuca (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- About WP:BURDEN: flat Earth theories are not propagated by WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SECONDARY WP:SOURCES. In fact what WP:BURDEN requires of us is precisely citing WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SECONDARY WP:SOURCES. This is the way we do things around here, and this satisfied the burden of proof: WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SCHOLARSHIP evaluates the evidence and our task is simply citing WP:RS written by mainstream scholars. This is what Misplaced Pages is about. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:46, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu: Ok. Let's go step by step. The migration hypothesis rests on two pillars. 1st, and the most important, is to show there were NO proto-romanians (or as everyone here seems to be fond of using - the exonym Vlach, which coincidentally comes in handy to avoid mentioning Tara Romaneasca. Everyone is using Wallachia). The 2nd one is a consequence of the 1st statement and the conflicting reality - that there ARE Romanians in Transylvania at the moment. So, logic dictates that they must have come from somewhere - but ONLY IF the 1st statement is shown as true. Otherwise, the 2nd statement is irrelevant. On another note, and this is the main problem of the migration - it rests on a negative premise. See, logic is beautiful. It's quite difficult - to say the least, to provide evidence that something IS NOT. And this is why this migration will always be in doubt and cannot ever be considered a theory. It start with: "there couldn't have been Romanians in Transylvania, at the time, because so and so". By the way, this "so and so", when this hypothesis was proposed by mr. Sulzer, consisted of "romanians are near slaves so obviously they couldn't be native". I do hope that we live in a more enlightened century where such "proof" is treated the way it deserves. Not on Misplaced Pages though...
- Nest step - the 2nd statement is covered quite a lot, and there are even (yes, admitting to it) evidence that show movements of population from the South of Danube to the North. But there are is also evidence of population movement from the North of the Danube to the South. In any case, again, this is irrelevant while the 1st statement is not supported. So, again (and again, and again) I ask: where is the evidence that supports the 1st statement? Anyone? I'll throw in a pack of Oreos, really.
- On the other hand, I just cited one very respected and trustworthy source: the Encyclopedia Britannica.
- "Between the 10th and 14th centuries new political formations emerged in the Carpathian-Danube region. The Hungarians, who had settled in Pannonia at the end of the 9th century and who entered Dacia in the 10th century, overwhelmed the Slavic-Romanian duchies, or voivodates, that they encountered there. "
- The article on Britannica has been written by a lot of people, only 1 or 2 of them being Romanians. Anyone can check it out. So, if this source clearly states that there were Romanians in Transylvania at the time the Hungarians settled it. This supports the Daco-Roman Continuity AS WELL AS destroys the Migration hypothesis. Hence, trying to "prove" part two of the Migration hypothesis becomes irrelevant. Simple as that.Cealicuca (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Typical WP:IDHT reply: I have repeatedly stated that it is not the task of Misplaced Pages editors to engage in WP:OR in order to evaluate evidence, we simply render WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SECONDARY WP:SOURCES, and this satisfies WP:BURDEN. Modern mainstream WP:SCHOLARSHIP is where evidence gets evaluated, obviously not inside Misplaced Pages and not by Misplaced Pages editors. We may only comment on the reliability/reputation of WP:RS relying upon objective criteria (see WP:PAGs), so we render WP:RS/AC, or, in this case, the lack of academic consensus. We do not substitute ourselves for mainstream scholars. This is not the place to advocate that one theory is better than the other, peer-reviewed mainstream historical journals are the place for doing that and we simply take at face value that there is no academic consensus upon the origin of Romanians. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:45, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Our house, our rules is a blunt way of saying that the Misplaced Pages community has a set of norms that govern how the encyclopedia is built: norms about what kind of sources we use, about how we handle conflict, and so on. Those norms include not using self-published internet sources, not making blanket statements about ethnic groups (Jews, in this case) without support, not editing against the consensus of editors, and so on. You may consider discussion of those norms as "off-topic," but the Misplaced Pages community tends to think they are important. Misplaced Pages articles aren't "owned" by individuals, but they are "owned," in a sense, by the Wikimedia community and the consensus of editors. When an editor, like yourself, decides they want an article to go in a direction other than what the majority of editors want to do, the majority of editors typically preserve their preferred version. Adding material to an article, and then having other editors take that material out, is part of the normal editing process. It's not "force" and it's not "vandalism." It happens to all of us. I'm pretty sure that none of us have our edits here accepted by the community 100% of the time. Learning to abide by Misplaced Pages's communal decisions is an important part of getting along here as an editor. And if you don't want your editing to be limited by the Misplaced Pages community's particular goals and methods and decisions, the good news is that there's plenty of other outlets for your work, like perhaps Conservapedia, or getting a personal blog. At the end of the day, Misplaced Pages really is the private project of the Wikimedia Foundation. It is, roughly, a service that provides summaries of the contents of mainstream scholarship, in the specific sense that "mainstream scholarship" has here at Misplaced Pages. It's really not an experiment in treating all views equally, and if you think it is, you're likely to wind up frustrated. Alephb (talk) 12:16, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
This is in response to your post on the Leonora Piper talk page which has been reverted.
Kazuba, I'm sorry to drop into the middle of this but I saw your post and it intrigued me. I think one of the greatest mysteries in the Internet is "What is Misplaced Pages for?" Quite a few people have tried to edit Misplaced Pages believing it to be the place to put your findings and your research so that others can see them. Unfortunately, that's not what Misplaced Pages was built for. Others try and post what they have seen to be the "truth", again they will find themselves getting reverted because that's not a goal of Misplaced Pages. I guess the best way to describe it is "The Largest Collection In The World". Misplaced Pages collects all the other knowledge and puts it in one place so it can be referenced. You express above your love and talent for research - I thinks that's wonderful. We need people like you because we already have enough people like me (I can't find my socks on my feet). The issue would be putting that research on Misplaced Pages, so long as it's in a book or over-sighted article, fine. If not, you'll get push-back. Also, we have to present both sides of an argument. There's no way to quantify how famous a person is, so Misplaced Pages tries to stay away from determining who's more or less popular. To say that a thing was very popular is one thing, to compare it to other things that may also be popular is different. Even statements like the ones in the section on "Phinuit" are a bit too far. There are statements that refer to "Phinuit" as a doctor and that his French wasn't very good... That's intimating that "Phinuit" is a real person who could be a doctor and know French. Since there's never been any evidence proving this all we can do is refer to it as "the entity Mrs. Piper referred to as Phinuit". These are some of the restrictions placed on us by Misplaced Pages, they make it so the stuff we add to an article is concrete and cited to other sources so Misplaced Pages doesn't get in trouble for "making up stuff". I understand your indignation, I have an article about my father on this site and I can't add several things to it because they are not written down anywhere. I lived with the man for 15 years... was raised by him... ate his cooking... but I can't say "he had one brown eye and one green eye" because it's not written somewhere else. Please don't loose heart, try and stick around and if you need help presenting an argument, please leave a message on mytalk page and we'll work it out together. Padillah (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- I have quoted what other editors stated in another context, but it is recommended to learn from what they stated. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again, the problem was not presenting POVs but HOW those are presented. False equivalence. As for Misplaced Pages, unfortunately it's THE PLACE to go for the current and future generation, for the foreseeable future. As such, Misplaced Pages is FACT for quite a lot of people, both young minds and not so young. The fact that there is no academic consensus is no excuse for a poorly structured and, in my opinion, biased in quite a lot of statements (see the Transylvanian school reference - using the Daco-Roman Continuity as a political tool, while failing to mention how Immigration came to be. Nothing on Sulzer's political motives - which in turn would make the Immigration a politically created tool) article. I never said to remove content about Immigration / Admigration. I personally think that the Admigration is the most likely explanation, but since it basically suffers from the same logical fallacy I cannot support it in any honest way. I am also stating that this misleading article has been brought to such a state deliberately - this is my opinion.
- The gist of it is that several statements are presented as "well supported" while the structure provides no structure in order for people to be able to actually asses such statement, and how well supported they really are. Each one (Daco-Roman continuity, Immigration and Admigration) should have it's own dedicated area, dealing with the evidence, critical points and the possible rejection of those critical points etc. And as a matter of fact I would really like for the content (Immigration) to remain - because if nothing else it has educational value. As for Misplaced Pages, no matter how this turns out, it NEEDS to adapt to the educational role it has today. And in order to do that it must be able to police the content a lot better than it does now. Simply dismissing this responsibility, out of hand, is nothing short of cowardice.Cealicuca (talk) 20:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- For us, false equivalence means WP:GEVAL. Please elaborate how presenting different major mainstream views would amount to WP:GEVAL. And stop accusing others of cowardice, this is not appreciated. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- I did not accuse you personally of cowardice, I was obviously referring to the fact that Misplaced Pages declares itself as a "collection" of knowledge when in FACT it has become much more than that. And apparently it has no policy in place for this, so instead of accepting the responsibility, it applies the same policies as it did BEFORE becoming what it became - and please try to deny that Misplaced Pages is used as FACT check today. As such it IS mainstream - so everything on Misplaced Pages automatically gains weight. Weather you like it or not, Misplaced Pages became MAINSTREAM. As such, things on Misplaced Pages begin to have a life of it's own.
- And here lies the problem - what you call "major mainstream views" is false. The only "mainstream" place, outside Hungary, that supports the Imigration theory is... Misplaced Pages (in terms of encyclopedias). As for evaluating evidence - you say you don't, but you do. I just gave a reputable source, plainly stating things that you repeatedly said were false. Quoting you: "There is no evidence for anything the (Proto)Romanians did for roughly 1000 years.". This means that you consider this source, Britannica - even more, a reputed Encyclopedia, adding to it the weight of all the research and fact checking of the information provided - as... well, not trustworthy. Is this not evaluating evidence? How can you reconcile your statement to that? Have you not just decided that your opinion is more trustworthy than what the Britannica article stipulates? Does the article of Misplaced Pages reflect those views? (rhetorical question - yes it does). Or is the Britannica article I quoted and provided a link not considered a worthy source of information for this article?
- As for bias - sure it is. The statement "several well-supported theories" is just that, an unsubstantiated statement. It is not backed up by the Misplaced Pages article itself, not to mention other sources. No, i'll stick to Misplaced Pages. If one makes such a statement then by all means, provide the supporting information (sources, links whatever) for the theories. As such - provide supporting evidence for the 1st pillar of the Immigrationist "theory".
- A neutral, balanced response to my proposal would have been: "ok, why do you say that, let's see how we can improve etc." - instead I immediately got this: "The immigration theory is at least as well supported by archeological research, linguistic evidence and written sources as the continuity hypothesis." So the editor shuts me down with that statement, which I challenge (provide links to said evidence, within this article especially), and he simply keeps on stating it as FACT. After which I am "punished" for not getting it. I get it - I ask that this treasure of information upon which his statement is built be presented on this page so that anyone can come to a conclusion. Misplaced Pages - a collection of information, right?
- Considering all of the above - I therefore ask for arbitration. Since you seem to be an expert on the workings of Misplaced Pages, could you provide me with the necessary information on how to do that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 21:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- No experienced Wikipedian wishes to open an arbitration case unless it is imperiously necessary. And arbitrators only judge behavior, not content: they have no authority on which theory should be preferred in this article. An experienced advice would be that filing for arbitration could end with WP:BOOMERANG. The rest of your arguments are the pot calling the kettle black or special pleading. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I am no experienced Wikipedian. I'm fine with my behavior. I wonder if you and others are OK with yours. So yes, I'd like to formally file for arbitration. Now, care to chip in on the other points I made? Like editors not assessing evidence and such? Or how "well supported" is not a subjecting (and in my opinion misleading) forgone conclusion? How come your statements fly in the face of another source yet they are somehow balanced and in line with the "no assessment of evidence" creed? How this article is definitely structured in a balanced and neutral way so that people accessing it can themselves asses the merits of those competing well-supported theories? And if you still have time - about Misplaced Pages - that it IS mainstream and as such anything here, supported or not, suddenly becomes FACT in the eyes of so many (and from here the imperious need to present the information in a very structured way, pros and cons like, debate even, so that anyone can actually asses the information - this as an alternative to self-policing, like other reputable Encyclopedias, for example Britannica).
- As for "he pot calling the kettle black" - sorry, YOU are the master here so you see, even if I were biased, and non neutral and such - you should not. You HAVE to stick to your OWN rules. Be neutral (not make statements with a foregone conclusion). Things like that. Again stressing, I did not ask for removal of the content but rather a change in how it is presented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 22:16, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Very short answer, and Tgeorgescu has right, this discussion and it's frame is already gone too far, you should consider WP:drop the stick. I as well won't continue until the standard of the discussion does not reach a considerable value. Answers to your questions (pharapraphs): 1. You confuse my statement, I meant in this page mainly the origin of the Romanians should be discussed, not the origin of the Hungarians. 2. Similar assumptions, accusations could be also addressed to the opposite side, but the problem is you just generalized Hungarian people in a prejudicative, negative way, does not belong to WP and is highly unprofessional. 3. I don't agree your "point 1" would tie up with what you claim that is anyway a confusion. So you have a claim only. Well, FYI, I heard in the school both of the theories, and I heard also in the Romanian schools more theories are mentioned. Obviously we could say the same way after the most accepted version is discussed entirely, shall it be in Hungary or Romania. Bye(KIENGIR (talk) 09:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC))
- The discussion was also shaped by the article editors too. Those editors substitute their beliefs and ego (see Mr. Georgescu's latest gem) to... well, whatever they wish. I mean if it's not WP:SOURCE it's WP:MAINSTREAM or whatever. Anyway: 1. Precisely, the Origin of the Romanians - and I did not confuse your statement at all. You did miss the irony it seems. 2+3. I said not only that you learn in school - I said you learn that it is FALSE. Not merely "mentioned". And that makes a whole lot of difference. As for the rest of the point... well, so far I accused only mr. Borsoka of being a nationalist propagandist, willingly or not. As for the last sentence - I am sorry but I did not understand where you want to go with that statement.Cealicuca (talk) 07:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- The point of this whole thread was to argue over the demotion of the "immigrationist theory" to "immigrationist HYPOTHESIS" in order to fairly assign weight to the respective theories. As is, the "continuity theory" and the "immigrationist theory" are given equal weight when the (Wiki-proof) evidence is overwhelmingly favoring the continuity theory. The immigrationist hypothesis is only seen as valid and promoted mainly/only in Hungary (for obvious political reasons), hence all the Hungarian "nationalist" propagandists here (see double-standard comment I made above), hence the inevitable discussion here about the Origins of Hungarians (which, while revealing in the greater context, I agree is irrelevant here). Like the other user(s) before me, I also ask for an objective assessment of this debate and, if the custodians of this Wiki page are either unwilling or unfit to do this, then this should go to arbitration. If Misplaced Pages is to maintain its reputation then it should not allow for the possible/potential bias of one editor (page custodian) and/or a group of well-coordinated agents to interfere with a fair presentation of the generally accepted theories.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 10:31, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
- I warn you again, better stop with groundless, prejudicative accusations like "all the Hungarian "nationalist" propagandists here" or "well-coordinated agents" just because some editors disagree with you, such may have heavy consequences in WP. As well, "for obvious political reasons" is the same inobjective, prejudicative judgment that could be also addressed to the other side if someone does not wish to remain on the ground of the scientific standards. And you claim "objective assessment". Final answer to you as well, as the above mentioned reasons.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:49, 5 May 2018 (UTC))
- The idea that we should renegade WP:PAGs because Misplaced Pages is used for fact checking is one of the most ludicrous arguments ever written in Misplaced Pages talk pages. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:00, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again deliberately misinterpreting. Never said to renounce rules. Actually I ask for more rules to be ENFORCED universally (since content on Misplaced Pages becomes mainstream and thus is accepted as... valid content BECAUSE it is mainstream), by select 3rd parties, not article editors and definitely NOT arbitrarily (seeing your previous comment about Britannica and your own conflicting statement about not assessing evidence). Of course "Renegade WP:PAG" that it's ludicrous - it's always like that after twisting stuff.Cealicuca (talk) 00:12, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Britannica isn't WP:SECONDARY, it's WP:TERTIARY, i.e. not of the kind of sources we prefer. Actually, here at Misplaced Pages we are pretty much lording it over Britannica. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:22, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, here at Misplaced Pages... "we" are lording it? Oh sorry, I didn't know that this is a good excuse for you to abuse the rules and policies. Also, really? Say what? You lording Britannica? Jeesus Christ! So just abusing WP:RULES is not enough? While yes, there might be articles on Misplaced Pages that "lord" over other traditional sources, this article ain't no way near that.
- Anyway, give it a rest already. Quoting from Misplaced Pages, what "Reliable source" is:
- "In general, the most reliable sources are:
- Peer-reviewed journals / Books published by university presses / University-level textbooks / Magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses / Mainstream newspapers"
- So tell me how is Britannica NOT a reliable source. Also care to explain how what you said is not the pinnacle of arrogance and how your statement doesn't mean that you actually substitute yourself to a SOURCE? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 07:26, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- We are not seeking to emulate Britannica, we are a different encyclopedia with different concerns and guidelines. Sometimes it is interesting to know what Britannica wrote, but this discussion of "Britannica is better" has been rehashed many times. And I never meant that I substitute my own judgment for Britannica's or for the judgment of WP:RS. Everything we add to Misplaced Pages is or should be the view of some reputed scholar. We don't indulge in WP:OR, so my own opinion in the end never trumps the opinions of WP:RS. What I have stated here repeatedly is that WP:RS have diverse views on the origin of Romanians, no academic consensus has been reached, so we merely render the diversity of views, that's all. If there was an academic consensus on this subject, it would be quite another matter. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:26, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK - so explain what kind of different? As I remember Misplaced Pages started with the mission to provide as acurate information as, say, Britannica. The fact that more than 90% of it's articles are less than A rated (so practically junk following it's own rules) - this article included, says a lot.
- Explain Borsoka's reply to my OP in which he starts with "Yes, there is no evidence for the continuous presence of a Latin/Romance-speaking population" as well as yours (no evidence for what they did for 1000 years) in spite of what the article mentions. Explain how Borsoka is NOT biased in light of his statement?
- Explain the structure of the article. We're presented with "well supported" theories - isn't "well supported" your opinion?
- Why aren't the theories presented clearly, as statements? Why is the most important statement missing from the Immigrationist theory (that in order to have any relevance then the must be NO continuity whatsoever on Transylvania's territory - because this is the contention really)? Without this - everything else is irrelevant. Because if there were Vlachs in Transylvania then it is irrelevant if there were Vlachs in other areas, or that Vlachs moved from another area to Transylvania.
- Explain the misleading structure of the article. Presenting the theories and then... Evidence. The Evidence is not catalogues (evidence for WHICH theory) and even the chapters are misleading. Evidence from present day Romania / Evidence of Balkan Vlachs / Evidence of Medieval Vlachs? Based on which rule did those 3 chapters appeared? Why are not the evidence linked to each theory that it supports? I'll tell you why, 'cause if we do this then the Immigrationist theory, based on this very article, gets a really really bad image - simply because the most basic statement is not supported by any piece of evidence, not even one that is in contention.
- Explain how come the part about the "political reasons" for the theories only mention the Transylvanian school, but not the backgrounf of the Immigration theory? Why not the criticism of Roesler and Sulzer? Was that not also political?
- So OK, forget changing the wording from Theory to Hypothesis. Just restructure it so it makes sense. We have Theory A, Theory B, Theory C. Evidence supporting Theory A, Theory B, Theory C. History of Theory A, Theory B, Theory C. Sound pretty fair imho.
- Care to explain how, if one takes a look at the history of the article, it WAS at some point (long ago) quite clear in this respect (mentioned above) while it started to turn into this deliberate misleading mess after Borsoka took over?Cealicuca (talk) 22:35, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- Funny thing is you deleted some of my edits ascribed to "reputed scholars" (like Conf. Univ. Dr. G.D. Iscru et al) simply because YOU didn't deem them as "reputed" (despite their credentials) based on your own BIAS. Further, no one here has said that "diverse views" are not welcome, what's on the table here is attributing PROPER WEIGHT to said theories. All theories are not created equal (evidence overwhelmingly favors one over the other), and you should assign proper weight/visibility to the two theories in question by downgrading the "immigration theory" to "immigration hypothesis". Also, you should allow theories/comments/notes coming from academics who don't agree with your POV. Else, you're in effect the arrogant "dictator" of this Wiki page and the rest of us plebes might need to stage a Wiki "rebellion" of sorts. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first one either. Please keep an open mind and make these fair changes as suggested.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 05:24, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- As I have stated, Protochronism is WP:FRINGE/PS (pseudohistory) and does not belong here, it cannot be taken seriously as WP:RS. Also, the deal is this: we cannot downgrade only one of the major views. If we were to downgrade one, we'd have to downgrade them all, see above the argument with 1000 years missing from the record. Since missing such record, it can be predicated almost anything about what (Proto)Romanians did for 1000 years: all such views would be equally supported, or equally baseless. In this context, the continuity theory is like seeing a ship in the haven of Rotterdam, one year later you see the same ship in the haven of Rotterdam and you infer that it stayed in the haven for one year. And the immigrationist theory is like you infer that the ship sailed to US and back. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
- First off, when you say "1000 years" aren't you exaggerating by a few hundred years? Should we have a recap of the sources now? And to follow your logic, even if we were missing 10 years from the record the "immigration theorists" would still claim that a decade was long enough for everyone to get in the boats and sail to the US (as you say) then return (once the Magyars had conveniently planted their flag in Satu Mare!) So the argument will never cease. However, as with most theories, one should use common sense and sound judgement to assign fair weight to the credibility of each. And, for better or worse, I think that's your job here (if I'm not mistaken). If you're saying you're not going to do it, then let's escalate the problem to the next level. I don't have a problem with that. After all, I doubt that page custodians (or whatever you guys are called) are elected for life, like some kind of royalty. You have to adapt to the times (and the emerging evidence) else you'll be left behind. Again, I'm trying to be as nice and courteous as possible, especially considering that you have falsely accused me (and probably others as well) of trying to get around the Wiki "controls". I'm not waiting for an apology, though one would be welcome. What I'm waiting for is a change in the weight given to the theories mentioned. That's it. Can you do it?--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 05:53, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu: Your example is wrong. The immigrationist "theory" is NOT akin to "the ship sailed to US and back." because this is a falsifiable statement. The immigrationist "theory" is akin to "they couldn't have been in port for the whole time" - an unfalsifiable statement which does not require them to bring proof to support it (since the ship could have left at any point, for any period of time, or maybe some other sister ship took it's place and the original ship sailed away etc.). And this is not opinion, it is FACT.
- Now onto my opinion - the point is that no matter how much evidence in support of the continuity is brought, the "immigrationist" can always provide as "evidece" any gap in continuity. - This is the main problem with the immigrationis so-called theory and this is why it is pseudo-science and, in my opinion, more fringe than the Dacian origins (which at least makes falsifiable statements afaik). Give it (imigrationis statements) to a scientist and he will laugh at it being called a "theory" all day long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 23:06, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know who would be the "page custodians". I don't know what these words mean. Misplaced Pages has admins, patrollers and ordinary editors (with various degrees of confirmation, like auto-confirmed and extended confirmed). As for the accusation of using WP:PROXY and of WP:SOCKing, I don't have to apologize, since my request for checkuser was endorsed at Sockpuppet investigations. Ok, it ended with inconclusive, but there was enough evidence presented so that the case got endorsed. As for why I have mentioned the 1000 years gap: as a way of explaining why there can be no agreement among scholars on the origin of Romanians. As stated, in the end my own opinion is irrelevant, all that matters are the opinions of WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SECONDARY WP:SOURCES. Misplaced Pages is a service which abstracts mainstream academic learning, per WP:NOTFORUM it is not a free webhost where editors ventilate their own opinions. And it is not a service which performs original research on empirical evidence. As for nationality, the Romanian Academy does not trump the Hungarian Academy, or vice-versa. Suggesting otherwise is the plague. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
- okay, non-apology not accepted. so what's your status in the Wiki rank and file?--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 08:21, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- ALL (100%) of the advocates of the "immigrationist hypothesis" on these pages (the Origins of the ROMANIANS) are self-declared Hungarians. Yet that should not be seen as either "subjective" or "coordinated" or "nationalist" or "political" in any way, right? Just a coincidence... I rest my case. p.s. thanks for the "warning", I'll be watching my back from now on.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 11:02, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Who can take seriously an mt.DNA and Y DNA research in the era of Autosomal tests?
WRONG, IGNORANT, BIASED AND LEADING QUESTION BY A HUNGARIAN NATIONALIST. mtDNA AND Y-DNA RESEARCH IS MORE RELEVANT NOW THAN EVER AND WILL NEVER GO AWAY. WE DON'T LIVE IN THE "ERA OF AUTOSOMAL TESTS", THIS PERSON IS TROLLING AND HAS NO CLUE WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 23:22, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
As in the DNA research paper revealed, it is only an mt.DNA Y-DNA research, so it is not autosomal DNA research. Only Autosomal researches can clearly prove genetic admixture and genetic differences and distances between populations.--Filederchest (talk) 14:51, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
- Everyone takes the research seriously except Hungarians upset that mtDNA and Y-DNA research proves Romanian ethnogenesis in the Carpathian basin (see links/discussion above).--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:18, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wrong. Do you think that French and British are related to Sub-Saharan Africans like Chad or Central-African Republic, because they have high ratio of R1B Y haplogroup? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/e8/93/7fe893c095e2bab69729640c4410262f.png
- Or do you think, that the famous (mostly) typical Slavic R1A Y haplogroup marker makes any serious genetic kinship with northern Indians. See the map: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/10/800px-R1a1a_distribution.jpg
- However the Autosomal DNA proved , that these Y haplogroup markers are not trustable to provide genetic kinship and distance between populations , and the Black Africans are not related to British or French population like Northern Indians are not really related Slavs.
- So English are not negroids, like Czechs are not really related to Indians. That!s about the Y haplogroup markers. But it is very easy to mislead people with Y DNA, who have absolutely no clue about population genetics even in the very basic level.
- If you can prove that English people are close cousins of black Africans and Poles are close cousins of Indians (because of Y haplogroup marker similarities), than I will believe that your Dacians are related to modern Romanians.
- Genetically the Wallachians are not distinguishable from Bulgarians and Southern Serbians. Dacians had genetically similar east-Balkan stock like these three nations, however it does¨not mean that Romanians are real direct descendants of Dacians. The Daco-Romanian continuity theory is nothing more than a nationalist wishful thinking so-called nativist idea of the era of national awakening. This highly politically motivated theory was designed and created to claiming (fake) "historic" rights for their high-medieval era immigrant late-nomadic shepherd ancestors.--Filederchest (talk) 08:18, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's not what I think, it's what the DNA experts think. And they don't think like you. Your "logic" is laughable. Of course you'll find just about any haplogroup in several populations. That's not how these studies are done and I'm not here to educate you. A basic high-school level genetics class would clear up a lot of your confusions. And besides, the seminal study I quoted has to do with mtDNA, not Y-DNA. Anyway, see other answers to your "questions" in the thread above. It'd be a waste of time to rehash the whole discussion here even though I see you find it very difficult to get over it. This is not a thread on psychology so I can't help you there.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 09:15, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- It does not really matters what they think (or want to think), until they had not real tools for proper examination. Until they could not come up with Autosomal tests, which is the only tool what can measure the exact genetic admixture and measure the proper genetic distance between populations, it is not a reliable source. It is a great news only for nationalist wishful thinkers (who don not care about reality and who have no clue about genetics) .
- Do you really think, that English Irish or French people are very close cousins of Central African Negroes because of the very same R1B Y-DNA subclade? Or Do you think that Czech or Poles are Indians because of the same R1A Y DNA subclade? Do not be ridiculous.--Filederchest (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- The research is very suspicious, why did they use only the backward (Like Y DNA and mt.DNA) from the early 2000s, instead of modern Autosomal tests? Why?--Filederchest (talk) 10:13, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Your "logic", sheer ignorance, and misplaced obsessions are the only suspicious things around here. If you want to debate the DNA experts (who all agree on the methods, regardless of nationality, belief, etc) feel free to publish your own peer-reviewed rebuttal and show them how it's done the "right" way. LOL. In the meantime keep embarrassing yourself and your ilk and show the world your true colors and "knowledge".--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hi Filederchest. Because I recognized the " high-medieval era immigrant late-nomadic shepherd ancestors " construct (that is, as expected, full of hyperbole because what else can you do to get your point across unless make it 'uuuuge - inflate everything with hyperbole) I googled it. So I ask you to keep your opinions to the "specialized" forums (for people sharing your beliefs - most of them with ".hu" domain) or spam the appropriate Quora questions (you know exactly which) or the appropriate YouTube videos (again I am pretty sure you know exactly which) that were returned by the google search. Second, this "late-nomad" stuff would not be a problem unless, in all the instances it is used in it's entirety (there's a whole allegory dedicated to this), it's meant to be derogatory, and ethnic slur, an insult to Romanians - both present-day and "late-medieval". Third, it's actually kind of baffling to see someone who is a descendant of a proud and fierce migratory people trying to belittle others using the "migratory" argument. Or, if you decide to actually come here and say meaningful stuff (and please, I understand this is a bit hard on you, but leave the hyperbole at home) you might want to no longer use the same broken record (blah blah late-nomad blah blah vlach shepherds blah blah). Thank you.Cealicuca (talk) 22:51, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- In fact PLoS One has a bit of a reputation for harbouring cranky research (Beall calls it a "a lonely and un-selective digital repository more than a scholarly publication"), and we know that studies on TCM out of China are suspect (Taiwan is independent of the PRC but it is China). So no, this is not a reliable source for assertions about biomedicine. Alexbrn (talk) 01:59, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- Alexbrn quoted from Talk:Acupuncture/Archive 30. So now there are three reasons why the claim is weak: a WP:PAGs reason, namely we do not care much for WP:PRIMARY sources, the reason with such approach to DNA analysis being scientifically outdated and the reason that PLoS One is a weak source in itself (see WP:MEDRS and you will get what I am talking about). Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- "has a bit of reputation"... really? That's all you can do to try to dismiss sound research by a multi-national team of geneticists? So you dismiss every peer-reviewed article of research ever published on that site just because one person (more on him below) made an unfounded accusation that actually has nothing to do with the research at hand? And you quote Beall, who has been accused of being an "unethical blogger (known as Predatory Blogger)" who unleashed an "unprofessional attack on PLos One". This DNA study has been referenced in several other studies in specialty magazines (like here) so you have to take it seriously. It certainly makes your claims weak. And how exactly is DNA analysis outdated? Feel free to explain.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:09, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just a remark: the adjectives "(semi-)nomadic" or "migratory" are not derogatory or instulting. These words describe a specific way of life: the seasonal movements of pastoralists populations along rivers (in the steppes) or between the valleys and the mountain pastures (in the mountainous regions) and their migrations from their pastures if weather conditions did not allow them to continue their traditional way of life there. Borsoka (talk) 05:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just a remark. This whole article deliberately makes extensive use of "vlach" and "Wallachia". Of course, mentioning "ruman"/"roman" or "Tara Romaneasca" would be quite unbalanced, right? Also, it is the first time I see you using the "(semi)nomadic" term. This whole article alludes to "nomadic" only, because of course, actually using the term transhumance (along with an explanation of what it means, seasonal movement and also seasonal settlements) would put a dent into some of the opinion-stated-as-facts things in this article. Because of course, who wouldn't want to relay the equivalence of nomadic Huns, for example, with nomadic Vlachs...Cealicuca (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Jordanes writes "There the unclean spirits, who beheld them as they wandered through the wilderness, bestowed their embraces upon them and begat this savage race, which dwelt at first in the swamps-- a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech. Such was the descent of the HUNS who came to the country of the Goths." Just a remark: the adjectives "puny" or "stunted" or "foul" are not derogatory or insulting. These words describe a specific way of life...--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 08:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Migratory or Nomad terms do not matter in this debate, what is really matter that they had no real genetic proofs (Autosomal research) from these fossils. But they will repeat it again and again as a "proof" due to their desperate politically motivated nativist nationalist origin theory.--Filederchest (talk) 16:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Filederchest: Nationalist? Wait... as far as I know in Romania you can't find people with bumper stickers depicting a "Greater" Romania up to Tizsa river or even the whole Pannonia? As far as I know the Romanian Academy and Educational system does not concern itself with the Hungarian origins, nor do they promote a theory to negate the official explanation of the Hungarian Academy. And I could provide a very, VERY long list about stuff what Romania, Romanians and Romanian state institutions DO NOT do - while the Hungarian counterparts DO... well, I guess one only needs to pick up a newspaper to read about it. Care to provide some sources for this rabid Romanian nationalism? Because I can, for each of my statement, concerning the Hungarian nationalism. Are you sure you want to open this Pandora's box?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs)
- WP:BATTLEGROUND. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:11, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes - great. NOW you call it a battleground? Because of course "But they will repeat it again and again as a "proof" due to their desperate politically motivated nativist nationalist origin theory" was not inflammatory at all, right?.Cealicuca (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Are you that ignorant? "mtDNA is maternally inherited. Therefore, barring a mutation, an individual's mother, siblings, as well as all other maternally-related family members will have IDENTICAL mtDNA sequences. As a result, forensic comparisons can be made using a reference sample from any maternal relative, even if the unknown and reference sample are separated by many generations."Is it getting through to you now? Do you understand that the scientists know what they're doing and YOU don't? Quit trolling these pages with your inane comments. Your desperation is only proof that deep down inside (even though you won't admit it) you know you've lost this argument.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:16, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Why MEDRS?#Primary scientific literature is exceptionally unreliable in biology. As for Beall, his verdict is law for Misplaced Pages, see the archive of WP:RSN. If you choose to fight against Beall, the forces of WP:PAGs are against you. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:25, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- How's Beall's verdict law on Wiki? Please explain. I don't find his name in that archive. In any case, what does that have to do with the study in question? The study was also published elsewhere and it has been vetted/underwritten by major institutions (NOT Romanian): The Institute of Molecular Pathology and Immunology of the University of Porto, the Spanish Ministry of Science and Innovation, the Basque Government to Research Groups of the Basque University System, the University of the Basque Country, Department of Medicine Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre, Nijmegen, The Netherlands, etc, AND the Anthropological Research Centre of the Romanian Academy! (prestigious enough for you?) What exactly does one guy's beef with an online site collecting peer-reviewed articles have to do with this? It's like saying "Article X has no validity because it was posted on the internet, and it's been proven that there are some shady things on that internet." That's essentially the kind of logic you're applying here. I thought you were better than that. It's the kind of thing one of the "other guys" would say.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- And this is for anyone who might come across this thread, not wanting to leave them hanging if they don't have the time to do the research. This article shows exactly how Autosomal DNA testing works and what it does. Below the photo showing the DNA shuffle you'll find this: "Notice that you (there at the bottom left) have no orange in your DNA. Does that mean your great-great-grandmother Merla wasn’t American Indian? Of course not. It just means that you didn’t happen to inherit that DNA from her in the random shuffling that occurs at each generation." What it's saying is that Autosomal DNA cannot even account for your great-great-grandmother to trace you ancestry back even a couple hundred years, never mind thousands of years. A mtDNA testing would find your great-great-grandmother to a certainty of 99.99%. That's why geneticists (including the German team I mentioned above) use mtDNA when they look for continuity over long periods of time. This other article shows the accuracy of the Autosomal DNA testing. As you can see it's only about 25% for grandparents! So, again, the OP of this thread (and the other ones who jumped on the bandwagon) have no clue how genetic testing works (and apparently no inclination to open a book or do some research) but they have no problem posting silly comments here and pretending to give the real scientists lessons in how things are done the right away. That's sadly, the level of debate on the Wiki talk pages. To sum it up, the only ways to test for continuity over long periods of time is by doing either mtDNA analysis (preferably, as mtDNA is passed down unchanged from mother to children), or Y-DNA analysis (as Y-DNA is passed down unchanged from father to son). In addition, as stated in one of the other links I also posted above, "Most human cells contain hundreds of copies of mtDNA genomes, as opposed to two copies of the DNA that is located in the nucleus. This high copy number increases the likelihood of recovering sufficient DNA from compromised DNA samples." Hope that's clear enough even for the detractors.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 07:46, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Put in Misplaced Pages search box
Beall's list prefix:Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard , of course you have not searched for Beall, so don't lie to us, we know better. You have no WP:CLUE, see WP:CIR. Also the article has not been in any way vetted by those universities. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Of course that article & research were either vetted and/or funded by those institutions since they conducted the research. It's as sound and prestigious as it can possibly get, especially given the multi-national academic pedigree of its researchers. Re. Beall, you're right, I was in a hurry and only looked on that "front" page rather than the "archive". I'll check it out later. So what you're referring to is this "Beall's List"? (where on that list is Plos One?) Either way, pretty irrelevant to the discussion. The study I mentioned has already been referenced in other important genetic studies (see link above) and thus sanctioned by the peers.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 08:06, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu:It is educative to see you dispensing in such a discretionary and one sided manner of the WP:RULES. You do that, of course, in a non biased and balanced way. It is hard though to reasonably explain why you had nothing to say to Filederchest - for example this statement of his - "Only Autosomal researches can clearly prove genetic admixture and genetic differences and distances between populations." - should have prompted your rigorous reaction regarding the infringement of WP:RULE, maybe... WP:OR.
- On another note - did you read the following? If not - do take some time and read it thoroughly. And afterwards please feel free to tell us more about you "lording" Britannica. And please do keep repeating your own non-WP:OR "for 1000 years no evidence " while of course making sure our "newbish" heads are finally pounded into submission with whatever WP:RULES suits you best at the moment. It surely paints a clear picture of your capabilities as a balanced, non biased editor.
- By the way, when are you going to address the chapter with the political "reasons" for the "competing" theories? Since the Transylvanian School is mentioned (rightfully so) to have used the already established Daco-Roman Continuity theory it only seems fair to mention Roesler's and Sulzer's reasons for creating (emphasize on create) the Migrationist hypothesis. Oh wait... that would pretty much be like really really bad, actually mentioning that those two were not actually historians in the first place and that they also "created" this Migrationist thingie to explain why the Romanians (sorry, illiterate late-nomadic Vlachs), while forming a clear majority - though let's not forget they are actually "late-medieval nomads" - should only be tolerated in Transylvania and not given equal rights (like the Hungarians, Germans and Szekely nations).
- Oh, by the way, being on the point of "illiterate late-medieval nomads" - who removed the reference to Simon Keza's mention that the Szekely's begun using the "letters" of the Vlachs?Cealicuca (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- It might surprise you: I have no dog in this fight, I only care about WP:RS. Show me your WP:RS. WP:OR applies to articles, not to talk pages. Primary sources in biology are weak sources by default (this is widely accepted by Wikipedians, it is not my invention). If you want to insert stuff into the article, talk page arguments aren't enough, you should also have WP:RS. Why don't you two cite Pop? Perhaps because he does not suit your POV? And frankly, Dacians-only continuity is so improbable that it is ridiculous, it is a "theory" which makes the Romanian cause look ludicrous. Tgeorgescu (talk) 08:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Mr. Tgeorgescu - you do not address any of my points but only deflect. I don't need to cite Pop because I really don't want to - I am not supporting the "Dacian-only heritage" hypothesis. I accuse you of applying WP:RULES discretionary (example being that you used it as an argument against both me and Iovaniorgovan. Nevertheless you failed to do so against Filederchest, or Borsoka or even yourself with your "1000 years " stuff. All of us have been using arguments here, more or less sourced (actually Iovaniorgovan is the only one that mostly sources his comments) yet your WP:RULES spidey sense applies to only some of us.
- As for me - I also have no dog in this fight (Dacian-only continuity) since I personally do not agree with - nevertheless I find it just as improbable (though less so) than the "migration" hypothesis. The difference, in my opinion, is that one was a product of Romanian nationalists and the other was a product of Austro-Hungarian / German "nationalists" (less concerned about their nation but rather about their privileges) but otherwise both were created, and are still used, as political tools. The only one who cannot be "accused" of being created as a political tool (but was at times used as a political tool) is the Daco-Roman continuity (admitted in the article by being taught in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as well as being supported by non-Romanian authors before Sulzer's revelation). Thus the only one that is "less tainted" so to speak, and still has merits as a scientific theory (at least born as one) is the Daco-Roman continuity. I have repeatedly asked why the Historiography: origin of the theories chapter takes great care to underline the role of the Daco-Roman continuity in the Transylvanian School's political struggle, yet nothing of the sorts is mentioned about Sulzer's migration.Cealicuca (talk) 08:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- :I posit that the article should be structured more like this or this. The way the article is structured now (and my belief is that this was done intentionally) makes the Daco-Roman continuity (emphasis on the continuity) less credible than it actually is - simply because any historical continuity theory is all about building a cohesive picture out of various pieces. Even more, if we try to build a cohesive theory out of the "migration" (that is try to give contemporary context to the arguments) then it becomes less reliable (again in my opinion). This article tries to address a very complex and thorny historical issue with total disregard to any scientific methodology and even more, starting with pre-determined conclusions - which incidentally I posit they constitute a breach of WP:OR ("several well supported theories"). The article also completely disregards otherwise accepted sources (especially relevant to Eastern / South Eastern Europe) like Oral traditions. So what say you - is my proposal that wild? I would gladly participate in re-organizing the article according to the principles that are inferred by the links I gave (within an initial framework that no new sources/arguments are added until we reach the final version - so that we do not concentrate on pro/counter arguments, leaving this for later). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 09:02, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again, WP:OR is perfectly ok, inside the talk page. It isn't ok for suggesting additions to the article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:12, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, yes... +1 to Deflection Skill. Now let's get back on track. As I said, I posit that the article should be structured more like this or this. The way the article is structured now (and my belief is that this was done intentionally) makes the Daco-Roman continuity (emphasis on the continuity) less credible than it actually is - simply because any historical continuity theory is all about building a cohesive picture out of various pieces. Even more, if we try to build a cohesive theory out of the "migration" (that is try to give contemporary context to the arguments) then it becomes less reliable (again in my opinion) - but this is something to be seen. This article tries to address a very complex and thorny historical issue with total disregard to any scientific methodology and even more, starting with pre-determined conclusions - which incidentally I posit they constitute a breach of WP:OR ("several well supported theories"). The article also completely disregards otherwise accepted sources (especially relevant to Eastern / South Eastern Europe) like Oral traditions.
- So what say you - is my proposal that wild? I would gladly participate in re-organizing the article according to the principles that are inferred by the links I gave (within an initial framework that no new sources/arguments are added until we reach the final version - so that we do not concentrate on pro/counter arguments, leaving this for later).Cealicuca (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu, I have quoted Pop (see the Densusianu debate; and by Pop I don't mean Densusianu, whose birth name was "Pop"); you seem to have a very short memory when it suits you. I have read Pop extensively and I hold him in pretty high regard, even though I think he's mistaken. I do have high hopes that he will eventually show strength of character and flip-flop on the matter like Parvan before him. You also just accused me of casting aspersions when in fact you're the one who has falsely accused me and others in the past.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 09:12, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Cealicuca, re. Sulzer-- see this book here, pages 19-20, 454- etc), published by the Romanian Academy, hence unimpeachable as far as Wiki goes. Whatever's written there should go into this article. p.s. I'm out of town, traveling at the moment, and don't have the time/means to do it myself until I return.--Iovaniorgovan (talk) 09:12, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again, the SPI case was endorsed, and I did not "suspect" you of using WP:PROXY, I know for a fact that you two have used WP:PROXY. Seen the inconclusive result of SPI, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. About DNA: biologists consider highly likely that all native Europeans from the 21st century are descendants of Charlemagne, i.e. we're all from his bloodline. About Pop changing his mind in support of Dacians-only continuity: people would say that the president of the Romanian Academy has lost his mind. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" - coming from you it's the peak of irony. I mean after your "There is no evidence for anything the (Proto)Romanians did for roughly 1000 years" used as an "argument" it really paints and interesting picture. As for the proxy stuff - you are aware, of course, that sometimes (actually quite often) it is not a choice - one can't avoid it, right? ISP(s) and such...Cealicuca (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again, I stated the 1000 years gap as an explanation why scholars (not me, but reputable scholars) cannot agree on this matter. Since evidence is absent, it can be predicated almost anything about what the Proto(Romanians) did, without having evidence standing in one's way. About WP:PROXY: Misplaced Pages policy is to ban open proxies, and those who cannot do otherwise should use Misplaced Pages's own closed proxies. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, I see now what my folly was. Thank you (no sarcasm, I actually think your statement opened my eyes to my mistake). So - what would those sources be (that say "There is no evidence for anything the (Proto)Romanians did for roughly 1000 years" or anything close to that - so that we can leave room for some poetic license...)? Please provide one (or several if that would suit you).Cealicuca (talk) 18:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- For a start, there is a quote from Neagu Djuvara at . Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Apart from quoting something from EVZ ( :))))))) really? That piece of... "professional journalism"?) I will, unlike you (who so arduously demolish sources based on association or other tactics like that), accept it simply because it's from Djuvara. Nice, I didn't know this quote from Djuvara. But wait a sec, what about this:
- "Archaeology probably remains the best source of information about the ethnic constitution of the largest population in southeast Europe. The Romanization of Dacia and the birth of a Daco-Roman people can be considered the first stage in the long process of the formation of the Romanian people, but this stage did not end in 275. It continued until the early 6th century, as long as the empire, still in power along the Danube and in Dobrudja, continued to influence the territory north of the river. The continual circulation of people and goods across the river and back certainly facilitated this. Georgescu, Vlad (1991)"?
- It's exactly the opposite.Cealicuca (talk) 18:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- How do you dare to discuss the history of Romanians while ignoring its basic facts? It's not just Djuvara, see George W. White (2000). Nationalism and Territory: Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 127. ISBN 978-0-8476-9809-7. Lucian Boia (23 January 2013). History and Myth in Romanian Consciousness. Central European University Press. pp. 225–226. ISBN 978-963-386-004-5. Florin Diacu (November 2011). The Lost Millennium: History’s Timetables Under Siege. JHU Press. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-4214-0287-1. Radu Florescu (1982). Romania between East and West: historical essays in memory of Constantin C. Giurescu. East European Monographs. ISBN 978-0-914710-97-4.
namely that there was a gap of a thousand years in the history of the Romanians . Ion Grumeza (16 May 2009). Dacia: Land of Transylvania, Cornerstone of Ancient Eastern Europe. University Press of America. p. 247. ISBN 978-0-7618-4466-2. That's just what I could find quickly on Google Books. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:27, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- How do I dare? How dare you? How dare you quote Djuvara as a source for your fallacy? Also, are you a professional historian? Who made you the keeper of absolute truth? Well, I dare. You want to know why? Because you are deliberately misleading. Or outright lie. Yep, both you and Borsoka. Djuvara said, and i quote, „În toată istoriografia europeană şi chiar în cea românească, se recunoaşte că e un fel de mileniu întunecat, unde sunt prea puţine informaţii, şi de acest lucru au profitat unii din vecinii noştri. Pentru unguri, Dacia era complet evacuată şi nu mai era nimeni când au venit ei, pentru ruşi sau ucrainieni nu era nimeni în Moldova, erau ei, şi acuma se întreabă cum dracu’ sunt atâţia români. Grecii nu ştiu de unde au venit aromânii, sunt căzuţi din cer”. Which by the way (quite clearly) takes a poke ("au profitat") at the neighbors of Romanians - stating that they are scratching their heads to explain where those Romanians came from... Are you sure you speak Romanian?
- Moreover, "mileniu întunecat" - (Dark Ages: Significantly, Baronius termed the age 'dark' because of the paucity of written records.) refers in his quote to the lack of written sources. Not evidence as you and mr. Borsoka like to say. So first of all cool down (see WP:NOTTHERAPY). Second, both Djuvara and Georgescu are right, but you and mr. Borsoka simply mislead or outright lie. It is you who are ignoring the most basic facts (that though there is an acute lack of written sources, BUT there are enough archaeological sources). Please educate yourself on what "historical sources" is. For example it is also this. Now, back to your "1000 years" quote. You used "evidence", not "sources". So please provide a source stating that for 1000 years there is no evidence, not sources stating there is a lack of written sources (because they are not the same thing).Cealicuca (talk) 19:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you find tombs, how do you know that they were Daco-Romans? Have they inscribed their tombs with "We're a Daco-Roman population"? You don't display any signs of having read the page from White. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't need to justify your answer, I just gave you a source (quote from this article). This is WP:RS. Or are we talking logic now? Because you didn't seem to like it before (see below about the point I make with the negative statement, a point I made earlier too). So which is it? Do you deal in evidence, sources, logic? But I will answer your question - archaeologists can distinguish based on the details of the tomb, for example. Find a piece of jewelry on the skeleton? This tell you something. Find a specific position of the skeleton? this tells you another thing. Find the skeleton without head? Or maybe there is no skeleton at all, maybe there's an urn containing ashes. And so on and so forth. Your (i hope feigned) ignorance is disturbing - to ask such a question. Please educate yourself in Archaeology. It seems that "Archaeologists study human prehistory and history" so I am pretty sure they have the means to do such amazing feat you're inquiring (If you find tombs, how do you know that they were Daco-Romans?).
- As for your sources - i will just quote George W. White (2000). Are you sure you red his book? 'Cause here is what it says at some point: "Very little evidence exists that can support theory, commonly called the Daco-Roman theory". So "very little evidence" is a universe away from "no evidence". But you know what has no evidence. And I mean no evidence. At all. That there were NO Romanians (or Vlachs, or proto-romanians) in Transylvania before the Magyars came. And I invite you to provide such evidence (for this cornerstone of the Migration hypothesis and, coincidentally, a negative statement) and humiliate me in public. Oh wait. Are we still talking evidence? Or sources? 'Cause you seem to oscillate between the two as you please.
- Anyway, you and Borsoka (as well as others) insist on "no evidence". Moreover: "But if the Daco-Roman theory is correct, Romantic (n.a. not Romanians but Romantic) nationalism sides with the Romanians on the dispute over Transylvania. Therefore, the Hungarians are just as compelled to disprove the Daco-Roman theory as the Romanians are compelled to prove it". So now we know why so many Hungarian editors here. Anyway - I do not fault mr. White, and it's book should be read without any pre-conceptions. But even mr. White puts little to no value on other sources than the written sources. Fortunately the world has evolved, quite a lot, in this regard. And it would be a shame, since otherwise Troy would have remained a simple place of legend from Homer's Odyssey.Cealicuca (talk) 20:49, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- First, we will never include WP:OR inside our article. Second, what I have stated about the 1000 years gap was a way of explaining why scholars cannot reach consensus upon this issue, i.e. I was explaining to you why there is disagreement among WP:RS. It was never meant for including my own opinion inside our article. It's like apples and oranges. Third, Boia (pp. 226-232) is quite adamant that the 1000 years gap is a big problem for the theories concerning the origin of Romanians. So now you have both: evidence and sources. Pop, Djuvara, Boia are quite patriotic, it is just that they are no fools (or were, since Djuvara is now dead). Fourth, don't lecture me about archaeology: I know that archaeological evidence is rather opaque and multi-interpretable. Fifth, if a smoking gun would have been found, Misplaced Pages would know about it. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- What WP:OR? I quoted a source from this article (Georgescu) and mr. white's book (that your sourced). Or are you referring to all your "arguments"? If so - I wholeheartedly agree. A "Major problem" does not equal "no evidence". Simple as that. Again deflecting, misleading, twisting sources to match a biased preconceived POV. (But no sir - you will not TOUCH the "no evidence" part on behalf of the Migration theory). But you still call yourself "neutral". Anyway, you asked about the Daco-Roman tomb - it's the same as finding a soldier on a field of WW2 and determining it was a member of 101th Airborne. Simple as that. An no - you don't get to run from it. You used the "1000 years" thingies as a way to dismiss the criticism I gave to this article - which was, coincidentally, that it is misleading and biased and it contains WP:OR. As for "Fifth, if a smoking gun would have been found, Misplaced Pages would know about it." :)))) Yeah, right. More WP:OR form your part - since Misplaced Pages's own accuracy and neutrality is in dispute. "I know that archaeological evidence is rather opaque and multi-interpretable." - this is simply WP:IGNORANCE and WP:OR on your part. Archaeologists' interpretations are not necessarily any more authoritative than eyewitness accounts of events (ie written sources), or vice-versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 21:20, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- So? You parse words "very little evidence" vs. "no evidence". Is that your defense? Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:25, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Are you serious? I mean really... Are you serious? I do not need to defend myself, you need to defend yourself. "Very little evidence" does not equal "no evidence". Period. You are misleading. Period. And your last statement (parse words "very little evidence" vs. "no evidence".) is simply mind boggling! As are your statements about archaeology. The difference with archaeological data (published) is that it is always peer reviewed and meticulously scrutinized. Once published it is seen as a responsibility for others to correct any and all erroneous data and interpretations. It is not flawless, for sure, and is always subject to bias (same as written sources) but these safe guards are in place nonetheless. Safeguards that are not usually present for a lot of written sources. Which makes it quite often more reliable than written sources. For example, Roman historical sources claimed that by law, soldiers were not allowed to marry during their years of active service, while archaeological evidence of legionary fortresses clearly demonstrated that soldiers cohabited with women and raised children inside the camp.Cealicuca (talk) 21:31, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- My honest view is that the emperor is naked: all the competing theories are naked and miserable. That was my point. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:34, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Talking about last minute... you were raising my blood pressure sir. Anyway, thank you for toning it down a little.
- My honest view is that to remove all suspicion of bias and original research we (you) need not take any stance towards any theory. You, and Borsoka, and others - failed to do this. Or at least this is what you made me think. you fiercely attacked the Daco-Roma Continuity but said nothing of the sorts about the Migration.
- Anyway, I am just a person "passing by" (and yes, you have your suspicions, and I can't alleviate them - but this is the truth nevertheless), a couple of months ago, that was appalled at how opaque and misleading the article is. Not necessarily because of the content, but the way the content is organized. And then I took a look at the history of it. And again I was appalled at how many things went "missing". What I ask is to reorganize the article so that each theory has it's own chapter. Clearly stated (all statements). History of how and when and WHY they came to be. Pro/counter arguments, sources. No more "evidence". Sources. So that anyone can get to decide what is what. I won't deny it, I totally believe that after such reorganization we would get to see the Migration as the naked emperor, while the Daco-Roman Continuity actually made a lot more obvious. I might be wrong - but nevertheless I cannot understand why such a proposal get resisted so fiercely. Unless I am right (and frankly I can hardly see how I might be wrong... but I'm only 99% of the time correct :) ). Again, I do not ask for any of the current content to be removed, at this time (unless of course links broken and such technical stuff). Reorganize whatever is here. Afterwards we can start bashing our brains in fierce fights about arguments/counter arguments and whatnot.
- Have a nice weekend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 22:08, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- What we have resisted is promoting one of the theories at the expense of the other theories. Since it cannot be known which is true, we have to present all major theories as equally valid. You are rightly not allowed to skew the article in favor of one of the theories. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- And my problem with the article is that it is ALREADY skewed, deliberately, by not clearly mentioning the statements of the theories (which would mean that the statement "There were NO Vlachs in Transylvania at the time of the Magyar conquest must be mentioned - in my view the silver bullet since it's impossible to prove). Misleading by weirdly categorizing sources and not linking them to the theory/theories they support. Contradictory "sources" (see written sources vs archaeological) etc. It is a MESS. And I honestly believe it's a deliberate mess. Again, what is wrong with reorganizing it the way I proposed? No new content. Just the existing one. Since you are so sure that they all are "naked". And please, please don't use things like "since it cannot be known which is true". "We cannot and should not decide which is true" is a lot more appropriate. Let the content and the reader decide.Cealicuca (talk) 22:21, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Frankly, you should not employ non sequiturs, this is not Fools' Debate Club. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Why shouldn't I. It's a fatal flaw on the part of the Migration - necessary nevertheless as otherwise no matter how many sources (written archaeological or whatever) they would use to support any kind of migration becomes simply irrelevant. This is why I initially asked for it to be "downgraded" as you said to Hypothesis - it's not even a valid historical theory. Simple as that. Nevertheless, this is the Talk page, and I fail to see why you get to use logic a couple of statements above but I cannot. Also, I no longer ask for it to be "downgraded". The only thing that still remains WP:OR is the "well supported" phrase. And considering your previous statement I am quite surprised you do not agree with removing it.
- End note: I reiterate - rewrite the article. Clearly state what each theory says. Add the current content (sources) for each theory (or theories if a source may support more than one theory). Let's see what we get. And in the end let the user/reader see which is which. Is that so unreasonable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 22:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't always get it my way, that's part of a collaborative project. Besides, we follow WP:RS, not the opinions of the editors. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Wait what? What has WP:RS has to do with what I said? Please explain the relevance - and why WP:RS would prohibit the reorganizing of the article (not adding, nor removing content). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 22:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I think that you have made abundantly clear that you do not wish a neutral article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I think I made it abundantly clear I want a neutral article. Please re-read (not selectively as you seem to do now) my previous statements. We're on Talk page, and as long as no new content is added, nor is removed (except of course the WP:OR "well supported") why is there a danger to neutrality? If things are as you say (all naked) then there is no worry. And on the same logic, you admit it's far from neutral at this time since you do oppose such a reorganization. Oh, and if WP:NPOV serves my preference - so what? Since when a neutral point of view can't actually support (by itself, not by editors) one statement or another? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 22:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
And on the same logic, you admit it's far from neutral at this time since you do oppose such a reorganization. — it seems like a grammatically correct phrase, but I cannot figure out what it means. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:05, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- I am tempted to let you figure it out... Really... I try to be civil here but your tactic (you are always on the offensive and only selectively answer to my points) has a name - used by a type of users I would not like to believe you are one of.
- Anyway - it goes like this. I asked for a reorganization with no new content added/removed. I ask for any forgone conclusion to be removed (more precisely "well supported" statement - which in case it will hurt, it will hurt ALL the theories in the same manner). No matter my bias (existing or not) simply reorganizing the content should not hurt the neutrality (if such neutrality already exists) of it since the content remains the same. Moreover, I ask that each theory has it's own dedicated chapter with description (statements) clearly made, sources clearly linked, arguments pro/con clearly stated, history of how and when they came to be clearly mentioned etc. Opposite of what is actually going now (I am still chuckling when I think of the mental gymnastics it took someone to come up with the "4.1.1 Sources on present-day Romania/4.1.2 Sources on the Balkan Vlachs/4.1.3 Sources on Medieval Vlach lands" categories... I mean really? Those are not even close to being disjunctive! Why shouldn't there be sources on present-day Romania about Balkan or Medieval Vlachs?).
- So I establish that if the content is neutral at this time, reorganizing it will not affect it neutrality - and please let everyone know how this statement is false. Oh, I know, you'll gloss over the details and pick something contentious from my post. I do wonder if you actually read the whole thing or not. test - say test if you reached this far. Anyway... I'm pretty sure I'm wasting my time. But since you seem to oppose (with far fetched invocation of WP:RULES that have nothing to do whatsoever with reorganizing an article) then the only logical conclusion (that remains) is that it is NOT neutral at this time or that a WP:NPOV is actually something you don't actually like to achieve. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs) 23:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- That's just your logic, that's just your view. I don't find it compelling. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe I should try some philosophy? Since you're so fond of quoting philosophy as logical arguments (!?!). Anyway, it doesn't matter what your opinion is about my view, or my logic. What matters is what your excuse is for not allowing a logical organization of the current content of this poorly organized article. Again - I revert to my previous observation about the categories of sources. Or maybe there was another criteria? Please enlighten me! Anyway, you failed the "test" test :).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cealicuca (talk • contribs)
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