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April 2006 Discussion

"official IRA policy" to not attack other "celtic" countries (scotland,wales) we need a citation

dont see how to edit references #27, the source for my change is: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch97.htm

CAIN has 1 british army fatality, the last in current round of conflict, on 12/2/1997, 1 RUC fulltime, and 1 RUC reserve shot dead by PIRA on 13/6/1997.

No civilian death from PIRA, RIRA, OIRA, INLA, IPLO etc., (excluding Billy Wright shot 27/12, Glen Greer dead in premature explosion at loyalist weapons dump 25/10, and the attack on Desmond Christopher Moonan 14/8 unattributed in court). http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FE7EE0D2-3D1E-4016-B386-8396FD271C55/0/j_j_NICE3182.htm

the civilian death attributed to loyalists;

1. 14/03/1997 - John Slane
2. 24/03/1997 - David Templeton
3. 08/05/1997 - Robert Hamill
4. 12/05/1997 - Sean Brown
5. 01/06/1997 - Gregory Taylor (RUC)
6. 11/06/1997 - Robert 'Basher' Bates (loyalist)
7. 07/07/1997 - Brian Morton (loyalist)
8. 15/07/1997 - Bernadette Martin
9. 24/07/1997 - James Morgan
10. 01/08/1997 - Stewart Hunter
11. 08/11/1997 - Robert Kerr (loyalist)
12. 09/11/1997 - Raymond McCord
13. 05/12/1997 - Gerry Devlin
14. 27/12/1997 - Seamus Dillon (republican)
15. 31/12/1997 - Eddie Traynor

Fluffy999 22:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

You should be counting 1996 as well as 1997. Two civilians killed in Canary Wharf bomb in Feb 96. One Brit army killed in bomb attack on Thiepval barracks Jdorney 16:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, but I took it to be indicating the year of the ceasefire.

"From December 1995 until July 1997, the Provisional IRA called off its 1994 ceasefire because of its dissatisfaction with the state of negotiations. However its campaign IN THIS YEAR never reached the intensity of that before the ceasefire it killed 2 British soldiers, 2 RUC men and 2 civilians, "

What year? If its indicating a toll for December 1995 until July 1997 then its not a year and the figures given are wrong also. I will check the reference to see what context Ed Moloney, The Secret History of the IRA is cited.

Fluffy999 22:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right. It was 19 month period and not a year. Jan 96 -July 97.

Jdorney 14:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that the PIRA ceasefire ended on Friday 09/02/1996 not "December 1995" or Jan 96. It was renewed again on 20/07/1997.

PIRA Statement ending Ceasefire http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/ira9296.htm

Figures for PIRA fatalities 9/2/1996 - 20/7/1997 are:

1. 2 civilians 9th Feb. (excluding DAAD shooting Sean Devlin 06/09/1996 & 1996 INLA feud)
2. 2 british army 11/10/96 & 12/2/1997
3. 1 Garda - McCabe 7th June 1996
4. 2 RUC - 13/6/1997

during same period the figures for loyalist fatalities are:

1. 21/06/1996 - Gareth Parker
2. 07/07/1996 - Michael McGoldrick
3. 12/09/1996 - Michael Whelan
4. 14/03/1997 - John Slane
5. 24/03/1997 - David Templeton
6. 08/05/1997 - Robert Hamill
7. 12/05/1997 - Sean Brown
8. 01/06/1997 - Gregory Taylor (RUC)
9. 11/06/1997 - Robert 'Basher' Bates (loyalist)
10. 07/07/1997 - Brian Morton (loyalist)
11. 15/07/1997 - Bernadette Martin

Its sloppy. I will clear up the sentence so its clearer.

Sounds good.

Jdorney 12:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Early Campaign 1970-1980

"As the conflict escalated in the early 1970s, the numbers recruited by the IRA mushroomed, in response to the nationalist community's anger at events such as the introduction of internment without trial and Bloody Sunday (1972) when the Parachute Regiment of the British army shot dead 13 unarmed civil rights marchers in Derry. The IRA leadership took the opportunity to launch an offensive, believing that they could force a British withdrawal from Ireland by inflicting severe casualties, thus undermining public support in Britain for its continued presence."

Just a minor note given that this is supposed to be an unbiased source of information, it has always been claimed by the soldiers involved that they were fired upon first and members of the crowd were armed, this was corroborated by an IRA defector. The Republicans on the other hand have claimed that it was an unprovoked attack on unarmed civilians; since neither side’s story has been proved it seems unfair to report one version as fact. It should also be noted that much of this article seems to be slightly biased in favour of the Republican movement, and I would generally ur on the side of impartiality as much as possible.

Very good point about what the soldiers say about events- its ok to enter anything to that effect so long as its cited, see also the Bloody Sunday articles. It is possible it is biased towards the RM, but when you see POV you can correct/remove, flag it up as POV, or introduce the other side of the story to balance the POV. There is one thing to remember though- this is an article about a specific group and how they saw the events, how it influenced them. It is perfectly valid to say the PIRA used bloody sunday as a propaganda recruiting tool. They make reference to exploiting such mistakes in the green book.

Details on British military & Intelligence operations or their campaign/role is missing in all the articles unfortunately. Could be due to space or people subconciously dont even consider them as "players" instead treating them as "stuck in the middle". Some military ops are mentioned here and there- Motorman / Mincemeat but huge security operations like Monarch & Hawk arent found anywhere- that entire period in the 1970s is a bit of a blackhole so far. I hope to get around to writing something on that soon. Fluffy999 11:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The Tribunal, as far as I'm aware, found that the only shots fired from the nationalist side on Bloody Sunday were revolver shots fired by an Official IRA, after the British troops had opened fire.

Fluffy, re expanding the article, remember that there are space constraints and that this article is actually too long already. Only the most important events and trends should be mentioned. Jdorney 17:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, its an overview sort of thing not a chronicle, but im thinking of some articles that complement this articles. The new ones would focus on british army operations etc. that can be referred to in this one. Its the way the PIRA article works with the PIRA Arms importation article now. Fluffy999 18:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Its interesting that you think that this article is bit too pro republican and the main article is too anti-republican. Originally they were the same article, but had to be split up for space reasons (a lot of both written by me). Perhaps the balance in both articles was lost to some extent as a result? Btw, I wouldn't spend much time worrying about Devin79. I'm just amazed he's not banned yet.

Jdorney 14:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

You did a great job. I'm not calling you a PIRA supporter :) Its not biased one way or the other, its very close to neutralPOV. However Ive a nagging feeling that some components are not touched on- the British military. In particular counter intelligence, surveillance, introduction of various military hardware, budgets, changes to infrastructure (civilian searchers/checkpoints/metal detectors), propaganda, informers etc.

It is my POV, but im of the view that how the PIRA prosecuted their campaign was influenced more by the reaction and methods used against than it was down to their strategic decisions. Thats POV though. To avoid making that analysis on wikipedia an article on those developments and their chronology would probably work. Then people can compare the two and make their own minds up. As it stands it just looks like the PIRA was out there "2 sheets to the wind" doing what it wanted. Just an idea, will see how I get on with it. Fluffy999 09:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting point and probably correct to some extent. I don't know enough about the British side of things to go into, so good luck! A good place to start though would be Peter Taylor's "Brits", the book and the tv documentary series. Actually all of Taylor's stuff is very good for research purposes. Jdorney 14:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement, I will check that out. Fluffy999 15:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Fatalities

Its an interesting point that there have been few IRA related fatalities in recent years, this is mainly due to the IRA calling ambulances prior to drilling out peoples knee caps or punishment beatings. This insures that the person in question won't die of blood loss etc. and hence they won't have violated the various agreements.

Latest edits

I've removed the latest edits by Devin79, who as usual is inventing facts and pushing his own pov. I'm tired of giving explanations for having to do this by now (see the Provisional IRA article's tak), but just as yet another example of what he's up to, he cliams that Richard English's "Armed truggle says on page 271 that the IRA killed 86 loyalists. One page 271 of my edition, (Macmillan 2003), English describes the Downing Street declaration of 1993 and doesn't discuss casualties of any kind. Jdorney 19:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

10 August 2006 reversion

An anonymous editor seems to have restored an earlier version of the article without explanation. In so doing, s/he has restored numerous typographical errors and eliminated numerous changes that had been made to bring the article into line with the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style. If the editor has a problem with particular content changes, s/he should raise those issues here. A block-revert is not acceptable. Ground Zero | t 11:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradictions between the claim of a Tet Offensive, the Long War and the Armalite and Ballot box Strategies

I think the section about Moloney's claims about a supposed Tet Offensive are disputed by other sources like Gherarty, Taylor, and Toby Harnden. They point to the generally accepted idea of the PIRA waging an Attrition war since their failure to bring UK Government to the bargain table by 1972. The Libyan supplies certainly had the value, as describe in this article, to hone the Republican war machine in order to sustain a significant level of activity for the forseeable future, but assuming that further reinforcements may have allowed the Provos to launch a wide military escalation is a matter of discussion. The claim that the uncovering of the Libya connection disrupted a large change in the Republican strategy seems also to contradict some UK intelligence reports. Indeed, there was a PIRA document retrieved by the British Security in 1982, where the Army Council acknowledged outright, based in the Falklands war experience, that there were no chances of defeating or even facing the BA in open battle (SoF Magazine article, February 1997: From who the Belfat polls, by Dr. Tom Marks, p. 67). I believe that the section must be revised. DagosNavy 15:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Ed Moloney had the best contacts of any current author within the PIRA. He quotes directly from IRA sources on the Tet offensive Moreover, the general thrust of the arguement, that the IRA were planning a major escalation that never really came ot pass is supported in many other sources. Eg Brendan O'Brien, Long War p135, "In Northern Ireland RUC informants were reporting talk among the IRA units of a coming major escalation and of ‘victory ‘86’"... "The IRA Army Council was confident that...victory could once more be brought into sight". Mallie, Bishop (page 450), IRA New Years day message 1987, "we promise tangible success in the war of national liberation in the coming year". See dissident republicans repeating it here see 1984 entry. Jdorney 15:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Coolaville etc

i don't think this inciedent is worthy of inclusion here. What appears to have happend is that the South Armagh IRA took over the village, ie put up checkpoints for about two hours, then left. In the context of a short article about a 30 year conflict, I do not feel this is worth mentioning.

Moreover, the parliamentary debates, in the context of a debate on the continued use of the Special Powers Act cetrainly do not reflect that this meant the rgion was "close to breaking point", on the contrary,

"The hon. Member for Mossley Hill was rather too gloomy when he said that life is livable in Northern Ireland. It is a great deal more than that. A great deal of life in Northern Ireland is very good and for many people life is normal. Their spirit is remarkable, but their life, jobs and prosperity are better than some would have us believe. I do not want the message to go out that all is gloom there because as far as I am concerned it is certainly not".

I also have to question why so many small details are put in about the 1990s, when this decade was far less bloody than, for example, the early 1970s.

Jdorney 07:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Jdorney. There are two reason two include so many small details about the 1990s. In first place, you can read the second paragraph of the article: This article aims to provide details of this campaign, so I guess any detail about the PIRA's actions should be welcome there. The second reason is that the '90s were the defining moments of the troubles, since they ended up in the Downing Street declaration, the first PIRA ceasefire and the start of the Peace Process. In the other hand, I think that incidents like the Baltic exchange or the Bishopsgate in London were not small details for the British government, since both of them costed almost £1.5bn, leading to a crisis in the UK insurance market. If you add the cost of further bombings after the first cease-fire was broken (such as Canary Wharf and Manchester), the amount reaches £2bn. The almost forgotten attack on RFA “Fort Victoria” delayed the commissioning of a £130mn naval ship for three years; I wouldn’t called this a small detail, but a catastrophic security breach . The Cullaville incident is also worth of mentioning since it exposed the vulnerability of the expensive electronic surveillance system deployed by the UK along the border. Imagine, for example, the embarrassment in the Pentagon given the case of the Iraqi insurgency taking over for some time a building or a main street in the so called “green zone” of Baghdad. While I modified the somewhat confusing line mentioning the “breaking point”, what I wanted to mean by that was that the 25 years old situation was becoming unbearable to the government in London, both in political and financial terms. As a proof, read the words of John Major in the Commons, minutes after the Downing Street Declaration was signed, already cited in the article:

• “For the past 25 years, the people of Northern Ireland have suffered levels of violence that any civilized community would find intolerable. No community, and especially no part of the United Kingdom, should have to endure the murder and destruction that have afflicted the Province. That is why successive British Governments have sought to find a solution to these terrible problems.”

Pointing out to the issue of the death toll, which certainly dropped sharply from the 1970s, it still represented a serious and painful problem in the view of the public opinion. See this statement by the First Minister in the course of an exchange with Ian Paisley:

• “I must say to the hon. Gentleman that the purpose of the agreement and the document is to make sure that, 25 years from now, his successor does not sit there saying that to the Prime Minister of the day. I wish to take action to make sure that there is no more bloodshed of that sort and no more coffins carried away week after week after week because politicians do not have the courage to sit down, address the problem and find a way through. I am prepared to do that. If the hon. Gentleman believes that I should not, he does not understand the responsibilities of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.” (The italics are mine. I saw that debate by television and this is the exact transcription of his words).

The statements of Major reflect what I have in mind when I wrote about “reaching the breaking point”: the frustration came not from the intensity, but from the persistence of violence. Also, if you check different chronologies of events in NI during 1994 (the PIRA cease-fire took place August 31), you will find that there was at least one serious incident (assassination, bombing, arson, mortar attack or shooting) each day, not counting kneecappings or punishment beatings. So, the life in Ulster, even if “livable”, was still far away from being a normal one (you can browse CAIN chronology or click on the following link).

DagosNavy 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Certainly life was not "normal" in NI at that time. Clearly also the bombing of london is worthy of mention. However, the specific point about the Coolaville indcdent is that the IRA did this all the time in various places throughout the troubles. So did the loyalists for that matter. An analogy between Iraq and south Armagh would not be the green zone, but somewhere like Tikrit, or part of the Sunni triangle, where it was risky for teh US, or this case, UK troops to enter.

Re the peace process, certainly the UK government wanted a settlement. However, this had been on the table since the mid 1970s. The real change in the 1990s was the IRA's attitude to ceasefires and alling off their armed ampaign.

Jdorney 06:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Dubious Tag

The assertion in question pre-supposes a shoot-to-kill policy and that this was used in that particular instanceWeggie 18:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)