Talk:Arvanites: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 05:39, 16 June 2018 editResnjari (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users27,468 edits →Disambiguation page needed ← Previous edit		Revision as of 06:26, 16 June 2018 edit undoSkylax30 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,590 edits →Disambiguation page needed Next edit →
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	It depends on what you read. There are some sources above, and there more in bibliography. Actually it is not only about Arvanites, but also Arnauts, Albanians, Albanois, Albanesi etc. For the moment, I am waiting an explanation on why the disambiguation page was deleted.--] (]) 21:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)		It depends on what you read. There are some sources above, and there more in bibliography. Actually it is not only about Arvanites, but also Arnauts, Albanians, Albanois, Albanesi etc. For the moment, I am waiting an explanation on why the disambiguation page was deleted.--] (]) 21:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
	:The second meaning which you refer too still has its origins from the first on some being from an Albanian speaking background. Your disambiguation is POV and an attempt to assert that the meaning of all those word was first an primarily regarding military people. At least when you make your case use scholarship, something from the 20th and 21st century that's done an overview of even older sources and also meets ] and ] because ]. Otherwise its a free for all and the same could be done for the word "Greek" which in the Muslim world carries different (negative) meanings as well (i.e in Turkish).] (]) 05:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)		:The second meaning which you refer too still has its origins from the first on some being from an Albanian speaking background. Your disambiguation is POV and an attempt to assert that the meaning of all those word was first an primarily regarding military people. At least when you make your case use scholarship, something from the 20th and 21st century that's done an overview of even older sources and also meets ] and ] because ]. Otherwise its a free for all and the same could be done for the word "Greek" which in the Muslim world carries different (negative) meanings as well (i.e in Turkish).] (]) 05:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

			Well said, ]. "'''some''' being from an Albanian speaking background" (and the rest from other backgrounds). I dont' quite follow all the rest. Dictionaries are not usually overviewed, and they crystallize the language of their era. So, everybody can write that "Dictionary ABCD of 1800 says this". You can argue that either it doesn't say so, or that there is a source claiming that Dictionary ABCD was wrong. Your personal interpretations are irrelevant. Regarding the topic in question (Arvanites as mercenaries, Albanians as "foreigners" etc), I have 20th century sources and I will add them soon. I don't see why and how modern era people can change the language of the past.--] (]) 06:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

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The meaning of "Arvanites" in old sources.

It seems that the article has been locked at an "Albanian" POV. Since much weight is given to early sources, like foreign travellers, it should be added that in that time "Albanian" did not necessarily mean ethnic Albanian. See Arnauts.

Trikoupis Spyridon, History of the Greek Revolution, 2nd edition, Londond, 1860 volume A', page 24 (in Greek):

"Arvanites were called in the two hegemonies (Moldavia, Vlachia, early 19th c.) the mixed Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, connected by the same dogma and living by mercenarism".

Ivo Banac, Nation and ideology , East European Monographs, 1981, p. 42:

"In the eithy odd years during which Naples employed light infantry from the Balkans, the troops of the regiment and its successors were known popularly under the three names in addition to the aforementioned camociotti: the seemingly national names of Greci, Macedoni and Albanesi. These, names did not, however, have their later ethnic conotations but were instead stylized terms that described the soldiers' general origins or mode of fighting..."

Arnaut at the Free Dictionary
Gordon Thomas, History of the Greek revolution, 1844, London & Edinburgh, 2nd edition, volume 1, page 95.
"Included under the generic name of Arnauts, it was recruited from Roumeliote Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Servians, who acted as body-guards to the princes, the great functionaries, and even the simple Boyards."

I am suprissed to read such missinformation in relation to arvanites issue. the ones who have thrown such information to this site, eather have done it on purpose or they are wrongly informed. they may have forgoten that arvanites are all from albanian origin as much as are members of cham community. Recently, a study from an well-known histiryan has clamed that in nowdays Greece live about 6 milion arvanites and cham altogether, which means that comprisses the halph of population of Greece today.

Disambiguation page needed

I see that this issue has been raised before, although not discussed really. The term Arvanites, in all languages (Arnauts, Albanesi, Albanois etc) had a second meaning: Soldier from the Levante, idependently of ethnicity. The sources are found above, and there are more. Shall we create an ambiguation page? Some users are erasing this info from the article as "irrelevant". Who will determine the subject of the article? Is anybody the owner? --Skylax30 (talk) 12:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I have actually never heard of Levantine soldiers being called "Albanian". This seems incredibly obscure to me...---- Calthinus (talk) 17:50, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

It depends on what you read. There are some sources above, and there more in bibliography. Actually it is not only about Arvanites, but also Arnauts, Albanians, Albanois, Albanesi etc. For the moment, I am waiting an explanation on why the disambiguation page was deleted.--Skylax30 (talk) 21:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The second meaning which you refer too still has its origins from the first on some being from an Albanian speaking background. Your disambiguation is POV and an attempt to assert that the meaning of all those word was first an primarily regarding military people. At least when you make your case use scholarship, something from the 20th and 21st century that's done an overview of even older sources and also meets wp:reliable and wp:secondary because WP:AGE MATTERS. Otherwise its a free for all and the same could be done for the word "Greek" which in the Muslim world carries different (negative) meanings as well (i.e in Turkish).Resnjari (talk) 05:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Well said, Resnjari. "some being from an Albanian speaking background" (and the rest from other backgrounds). I dont' quite follow all the rest. Dictionaries are not usually overviewed, and they crystallize the language of their era. So, everybody can write that "Dictionary ABCD of 1800 says this". You can argue that either it doesn't say so, or that there is a source claiming that Dictionary ABCD was wrong. Your personal interpretations are irrelevant. Regarding the topic in question (Arvanites as mercenaries, Albanians as "foreigners" etc), I have 20th century sources and I will add them soon. I don't see why and how modern era people can change the language of the past.--Skylax30 (talk) 06:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

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Copyright violation?

This edit alleges there was a copyright violation and sourcing "from an unserious site" involved in the footnote quoting various 19th-century primary sources about the Albanian inhabitation of Athens. @Alboholic:, can you please elaborate? Copyright violation of what, and sourced to what unreliable "site"? All I see is quotations from 19th-century books. This passage was inserted back in 2007 by Macrakis (talk · contribs), one of the most academically well-respected editors in this field, who certainly wasn't plagiarizing anything. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is the contrary and this site which I mean violated actually copyright. I mean this site: I had the same discussion on the German-speaking Misplaced Pages. There they didn't want to accept these references as sources. 19th-century authors and works shouldn't be that reliable and as Misplaced Pages authors we should refer to more contemporary literature. I hope you understand me and now I have to continue the discussion on the German-speaking Misplaced Pages ...--Alboholic (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Alboholic, Future Perfect at Sunrise, Macrakis I think the impasse can be resolved and clear up any wp:reliable and wp:secondary issues First on the travellers account a link to it in the article would clear matters . Also, I just came across these academic sources (that meet requirements) on the 19th century Arvanite presence in Athens that can be added for whoever has time. ( Panourgia & Panourgia -p.27.); ( Zervas - p.52.); on the Athens suburb Plaka and Arvanite presence ( Clayer - p.134. "De même, le fameux quartier de « Plaka », blotti au pied de l'Acropole d'Athènes, était habité par des albanophones. Les Arvanites, ainsi qu'on les nomme et qu'ils se nomment eux-mêmes, étaient à cette époque de conscience hellénique."); for more recent times (, Adamou - p. 60. "En ce qui concerne la répartition géographique, la population arvanite la plus dense habite au sud de la Grèce, ... dans une partie du centre d'Athènes, à Plaka, ainsi que dans certaines banlieues (Maroussi, Xalandri, Kifissia, Menidi etc.) cf."). Hope it assists. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:09, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari, thank you for the more references. You can add them freely. However, I (and I think Misplaced Pages in general) would prefer more newer literature...Best.--Alboholic (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Alboholic, the source citing the 19th century reality (added way back by Macrakis) is Freely published in 2004. Panourgia & Panourgia is 1995; Zervas is 2017; Clayer is 2007; Adamou is 2008. Scholarship takes time to be generated, even so these academic sources are recent within the space of at least two decades or so on the topic of Arvanites which is not researched much these days. They more than qualify regarding the wp:reliable and wp:secondary criteria. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari Okay, I see. Thank you for the explanations. Kalofsh mirë.--Alboholic (talk) 15:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

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