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Revision as of 05:05, 18 June 2018

Error reportsPlease do not post error reports for the current Main Page template version here. Instead, post them to Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors. Errors reports relating to the next queue to be promoted can also be posted to ERRORS. If you post an error report on one of the queues here, please include a link to the queue in question. Thank you.

DYK queue status There are currently 5 filled queues – all good, for now! v t e Earliest time for next DYK update: 00:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC) Current time: 15:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC) Update frequency: once every 24 hours Last updated: 15 hours ago( verify reset purge )

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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and processes can be discussed.

Do you have a suggestion for improving DYK, or would like to comment on the suggestions of others? Have your say at Misplaced Pages:Did you know/2017 reform proposals.

Krinkle bot errors?

Krinklebot has now twice failed to transclude cascade protection images from DYK queues to the protected commons page. I am following this up at commons, but if anyone here has the know-how to investigate, that would be appreciated. Also, until we know this is fixed, it seems to me that anyone doing promotions either to preps or to queues should upload local copies of all images used. @Alex Shih, Gatoclass, Maile66, Cwmhiraeth, Yoninah, BlueMoonset, and Narutolovehinata5: FYI. Vanamonde (talk) 12:05, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 I've been following this since right before you got involved, and something I don't understand is going on. When I first pulled up the article, there were no images at all, just a lot of white space where the images should be. Eventually, and I don't even know how I did this, prior to your uploading File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904 WPen Copy.jpg locally, I managed to find File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904.jpg and protect it locally. I did a refresh on the article, and all the images appeared. I don't understand the logistics of this, but something out of the ordinary happened. — Maile (talk) 12:40, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Maile66: Curiouser and curiouser. I see now that you protected File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904.jpg at 11:09 UTC (and I didn't even know you could protect a file hosted on commons on en.wiki: you can't edit it, after all) but even so, the bot didn't run until 11:29 UTC, four minutes after I had added the en.wiki local copy to the queue. So I'm wondering why the bot not run immediately after you protected the file, and I'm thinking maybe it's because even if it was protected here, the file would be open to vandalism at commons, where it was hosted; and this entire exercise is about keeping vandalism off the main page, so the file posted to the main page has to be protected everywhere that it could be affected? Not sure. ALSO, krinklebot didn't protect the DYK image yesterday, but did protect a file from CMP later yesterday, before once again failing to protect today's DYK image when I added it to CMP. It's also still running, and transcluding images for other wikipedias. I'm honestly baffled. Vanamonde (talk) 12:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 Also, here's a link to Commons:User talk:Krinkle, so promoters know how to contact the bot owner. I am not an admin on Commons, and I've long been able to protect an image locally to get it through the DYKBot update. This time was an anomaly. The delay of 4 minutes in between protecting the image and DYKBot acting, is normal. I think it's stranger that all the images blanked out on the article before I did that one local image protection. — Maile (talk) 13:01, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Maile66: Wait, what? So then it should have run after your protection, but didn't. Do you happen to remember when you last did something like this? I'd be very curious to see if there's any differences. ALSO; I've been told that the error in question was fixed just now; so we should be good to go, but we should probably check the next few images before they're due on the main page. Vanamonde (talk) 13:07, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 Correct - it should have run after I protected it. However, you'll notice the file you uploaded has a different name. I don't know the last time I protected an image locally. I just do it automatically. However, sometimes it's not necessary to do anything. If you just wait a few minutes after the DYK Bot error notice, sometimes the protection from Commons links up on its own. — Maile (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Maile66: I uploaded an image with a different image very intentionally; I've noticed the upload wizard (yes, I use it, just to make sure I don't miss something) gives out very stern warnings if a new image on en.wiki has the same name as a commons image. I switched the images in the queue later, which is also what I did yesterday. Here's another question, though. If it is possible to protect a file hosted on commons here at en.wiki, why doesn't the cascade protection from the main page protect it anyway? It's transcluded in the queue; we shouldn't have to do anything! Vanamonde (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 It normally does cascade the protection from Commons to the local Misplaced Pages file. I don't know if you've noticed this, but if you load a file on Commons, it duplicates as a file on Misplaced Pages when used in an article. Every once in a while there's a cosmic hiccup in the cascading protection process. — Maile (talk) 13:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 Tackling the last question you asked - when an image is uploaded to en.wiki, it's its own image separate from the commons image. In other words, it's not possible to protect a file hosted on commons here at en.wiki, we either 1) upload the file to en.wiki as a separate image, or 2) protect the file at commons. As you noticed, there are warnings about uploading an image here at en.wiki with the same filename as an image at commons, and only admins can perform this action. In the past we've preferred using the same image name to avoid broken links at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions when the temporarily uploaded image is deleted. Anyways, once the image is uploaded at en.wiki, the cascading protection can do its magic. Cascading protection will not work across wikis; cascading protection on en.wiki pages will not protect files hosted at commons. And one more tidbit: cascading protection can take a while to kick in and protect the en.wiki file, to force it null edit the cascade-protected page. Shubinator (talk) 04:39, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Shubinator: This was exactly what I thought it was, but Maile66 said otherwise above, and when I checked a few files I did have a protect button for them even though they were hosted on commons...Maile, thoughts? Vanamonde (talk) 04:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Go with what Shubinator says. He's been doing this a long time. — Maile (talk) 11:05, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I think Maile66 you may have slightly misunderstood a couple things. Like Shubinator said, protecting the page without uploading the file locally is not the correct DYK image protection procedure (while it does prevent people from creating the page, it will create error for the bot), which I think is what happened with File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904.jpg? And when doing {{c-upload}} for DYK, it should always be uploaded locally under the same name. Alex Shih (talk) 13:37, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Alex Shih, Vanamonde93, @Shubinator: Mostly, I was just agreeing with whatever Shubinator says about his own bots, because he ought to know.

(1) Wouldn't it be impossible to protect an image locally if isn't uploaded already? I protect images locally by going to their uploaded File on Misplaced Pages. Can't do that if it isn't uploaded. Right?

(2) Up until this latest situation, this is what I understood:

(a) An image on Commons is already cascading protected for a main page appearance;

(b) The DYK bot sometimes has a hiccup in the cascading process and says the image is not protected, even though it is uploaded locally;

(c) I had been previously told by an admin (forgot which one) that in such a case, protecting the existing local upload will clear the issue. Now ... I've since done that many times, and it always seemed to work.

(3) In the above situation, the images were blanked out white space on the article itself - a strange phenomenon. The image in question WAS already uploaded locally. I accessed it by clicking on it in the nomination template. I protected it locally.

(4) The images - all of them - reappeared in the article immediately after I protected the originally loaded image that was the subject of this thread.

(5) Whether or not my actions would have worked, became irrelevant when in the same time span, Vanamonde93 uploaded the image under a different name and took care of it that way. But the real issue seemed to have been Commons:User talk:Krinkle the Krinkle bot malfunctioned.

So ... I can go back to, when needed, protecting locally for an already uploaded image? — Maile (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Maile66: Using File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904.jpg as an example, the file technically does not exist here on the English Misplaced Pages. This file was never uploaded, not under the same name. So moving on with your question 1) No, by protecting a non-existing file like File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904.jpg which only exists on Commons, you are basically applying creation protection. Please see the revision history of this file (). 2) Images on Commons do not get cascading protection automatically if a file is due to appear on the Main Page of English Misplaced Pages. This is done by the bot. Therefore, b) I have never ran into this DYKUpdateBot hiccup personally if I uploaded the file locally; this means I basically uploaded the image under the same name, ignoring the warning, therefore replacing the transcluded Commons image file here with the now locally uploaded file. I am not sure what happened at 3) and 4), but I suspect it is related to broken redirect/edit conflicts. Alex Shih (talk) 15:01, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Maile66: I think we're on the same page here, we just weren't being super clear about it. When an image is locally uploaded, it should be cascade-protected automatically, and if there's a hiccup, as you said, protecting it here is obviously the solution. I see no reason why that should no longer be the case. For images hosted only at commons, the cascade protection cannot kick in without Krinklebot. Alex: I don't know if you saw that bit of my message, but there really was a krinkle bot issue that has been sorted. In such situations I imagine that even if we have local protect buttons, they aren't actually of any use for this problem. The only question that remains is why Maile was seeing blank spaces in the article for a time (although Maile, the link you gave me to the page you protected was to the commons image, not a local copy...) Vanamonde (talk) 17:17, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 Yes, I saw User_talk:Krinkle#Krinkle_bot_errors?. I am not sure what you mean by the sentence "even if we have local protect buttons..."? If the file cannot be protected on Commons in time, the procedure has always been to do {{c-upload}} here locally (upload with the same filename and tag with the template), and I've never had any issues when I do this. And I always try to manually protect the image after I upload them locally anyway, since like Shubinator said cascading protection can take a moment to kick in, and I don't like to wait. Alex Shih (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Alex Shih: All I mean is that it's initially a bit confusing to find that you can protect a page that cannot be edited; ie a file that's hosted on commons. It took me a while to realize that what that button allows me to do is to protect the blank en.wiki page that nobody sees. Vanamonde (talk) 17:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

@Alex Shih: Vanamonde93 Quoting from DYK Admin instructions:

Make sure the image/media for the hooks to be loaded is on English Misplaced Pages or protected on Commons. If the image/file is on Commons and not protected, upload it to En and tag it with {{c-uploaded}}. You do not need to protect the picture; this is done automatically because of the cascading protection of the Main Page. Alternatively, if you are an admin at Commons you can protect the image/file at Commons instead of uploading to En. Note: Currently, files on Commons are automatically protected by a bot adding them to commons:Commons:Auto-protected files/wikipedia/en, so manual protection is not required. Please verify that the bot is still running as expected.

The bot mentioned there is Krinkle. Got it. I think somewhere along the line I got "cascading protection of the Main Page"" mixed up as it being from Commons. Where it can be confusing is if you look at File:Canal Zone CZ4, Issue of 1904.jpg, the url at the top says "en.wikipedia.org/File:Canal_Zone_CZ4,_Issue_of_1904.jpg" I probably have never seen a DYK image that wasn't already loaded like this, which is why I've been thinking the files were already uploaded on a Misplaced Pages file. Otherwise, my browser would go directly to the image on Commons like it normally does when I click on an image in English Misplaced Pages. But other than that, I think this all finally clicked for me. — Maile (talk) 18:36, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah it took me a while to understand this, too. Where the other main page sections still do this manually, we've saved time and effort, but at the slight cost of building a trickier system. Of course if krinklebot can get stuck with our images, I imagine this could also happen to OTD or TFA someday....ITN is the only one where images are posted manually. Vanamonde (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I added a KrinkleBot link to the above admin instructions. I've been working DYK for 7 years, the last 2 of which have been as an admin. Until you mentioned KrinkleBot, I never heard of it. (Not that it couldn't be buried somewhere in the massive DYK instructions hither and yon ...) Admins should have a link to it on their DYK instruction page. — Maile (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Good thought, thank you. Vanamonde (talk) 12:19, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Deviation in time of posting

Having noticed a massive 'delay' in posting a new set of DYK hooks compared to everything else i asked about it at errors. I have seen here that DYK is currently more than 11 hours behind everything else on the main page and was told the deviation will decrease by 15 minutes every day, which will fix the issue in a mere 45(!) days (given nothing goes wrong and extends it back again of course). In my opinion, it is an incredibly bad look for DYK itself as well as the whole main page to have such a massive deviation, made worse by not really doing anything to better it in a timely manner. So, how about making the whole process of being 'on time' a little quicker by decreasing the posting by one or even two hours a day so it won't take one and a half month but rather one to two weeks to be on time with everything else? Or perhaps even, just post one of the next sets at 0:00UTC to be on time, more or less, now. 31.150.101.18 (talk) 10:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

31.150.101.18, it's a fair point. When the delay has accumulated to such extent, usually I'd prefer to manually drift the time so that we are back in sync faster, so hopefully it will not take us weeks. Alex Shih (talk) 13:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Please just fix it. This pageview quest is embarrassing enough, without having to demonstrate it for days (or weeks) via a recalcitrance to just re-synch with the entire rest of the main page (other than ITN, of course). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

When, as sometimes happens, we have two sets a day, each hook only gets 12 hours exposure. Personally I see no problem in just returning to the correct time for moving the set to the main page in one fell swoop. Sure, one set will have less exposure, but what does that matter? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

DYK is almost overdue

In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:

1. Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
2. Once completed edit queue #4 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
3. Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page

Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 04:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

On it. Vanamonde (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Done. Vanamonde (talk) 05:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

In response to the thread above, if I can't get to this, could someone please turn the clock back to 0:00 at Template:Did you know/Next update/Time once the bot finished updating this set? Alex Shih (talk) 05:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Done. Vanamonde (talk) 06:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

RfC

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

A discussion is going on was previously at ERRORS (permalink to final version) about whether hooks reporting murders, riots, etc., should be featured on the main page. The hook in question, which was pulled, was:

• ... that a newlywed man was killed and his wife seriously injured in February after opening a parcel bomb that looked like a wedding gift?
• We need to build consensus on this point, rather than have administrators feel free to pull hooks they don't like. Please add your comments here. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Comments

• I proposed the hook in question, and I still stand by it. It is not "jokey" or "light", as another editor suggested. We have had plenty of hooks that reported murders, riots, etc., and we have printed even more grisly stuff that happened hundreds of years ago. We cannot make a blanket statement that we will never report murders and riots. Readers who are familiar with current events might even wonder why Misplaced Pages isn't featuring them on the main page. I feel that as long as we can write a non-sensational, straightforward hook, even about a gory subject, the hook should run. If we can't come up with something positive to say (which has happened in the past), the article shouldn't be featured. Yoninah (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
• As I said at ERRORS, DYK is not a trivia section. If we can provide an interesting fact that is serious and educational, we should feature it. We've no reason to stay away from content that some readers might find upsetting just because this is DYK, when similar material is routinely featured elsewhere on the main page. That presupposes that DYK is for light-hearted material. I see no reason it should be that way, and no consensus for it either. We can extend basic courtesy to our readers in that we shouldn't use hooks for shock value (the N-word hooks from a while back come to mind) but this isn't one of those. Vanamonde (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

How is DYK not a trivia section? Some company building an organ in a random german town is not trivia? Or how is who performed the first heart transplant in a specific country not trivia either? To be honest, pretty much every hook on the main page right now is trivia. And going even further, isn't t he whole point of DYK being a trivia section by... pulling random trivia out of nominated articles? 91.96.210.216 (talk) 15:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Simply because we have always featured hooks of serious/significant import, and see no reason to stop simply because many other hooks are about interesting but less significant details. Vanamonde (talk) 16:03, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

So pulling random trivia out of articles does not make DYK a trivia section. Seems odd, but if you say so. 91.96.210.216 (talk) 16:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

If you wish to ignore the serious material DYK has previously featured, that is entirely your problem, not mine. Vanamonde (talk) 17:11, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

What does serious or lighthearted material have to do with it being trivia? There certainly are serious topics, the heart transplant for example. But who had first performed such an operation in a specific country, india in this case, is pure trivia. It is not about the subject matter but the nature of DYK. Highlighting articles by using trvia found in the article. 91.96.210.216 (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

From our sister project: Trivia, noun. "insignificant trifles of little importance, especially items of unimportant information." As I have now said three times, we have frequently featured items of significance. Vanamonde (talk) 17:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

trivia (ˈtrɪviə ; trivˈēə)2. little-known, insignificant facts Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition 91.96.210.216 (talk) 17:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

So we have each been using a different definition of the term. No wonder this did not go well, haha 91.96.210.216 (talk) 17:59, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. "our sister project" is not a reliable source, after all, I thought we all knew that. I would stick with the one which actual has some heritage. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:03, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Here just for convenience. Also to find there is "Definition of trivia for English Language Learners(not that anyone here is an english learner of course, but to illustrate my previous point): unimportant facts or details: facts about people, events, etc., that are not well-known". That describes DYK pretty good. Mind, those unimportant facts and details can of course be quite interesting nontheless. 91.96.210.216 (talk) 18:07, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

To expand a tiny bit, in the same link there also is a definition of trivia for kids which states ": interesting facts that are not well-known " which to me reads like the basic principle of finding an interesting hook in any given acticle. The hook then contains 'unimportant facts or details' and/or 'facts about people, events, etc., that are not well-known' like a company fulfilling a contract in a random location, that remains of an extinct animal were only found in one location, a military man being present in battles(in other words doing his job) or being the first in ones field to have done something locally, just as random examples from today(but could be expanded to the vast majority of hooks). So, i really cannot see any other way of describing DYK than trivia. Do you? I am genuinely curious. 91.96.210.216 (talk) 22:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@91.96.210.216: you are taking this RfC in a totally different direction than the way it's intended. If you have something specific to say about banning hooks about murders, deaths, riots, etc., please do so. If you'd like to discuss why DYK should be viewed as trivia, please start a different thread. Thank you. Yoninah (talk) 22:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I was simply questioning a statement made by Vanamonde and pointing out, with a source, why believed that statement to not be true. But fair enough anyway, i will not take this any further. I would still be curious about an answer though, here or in another section.(by the way, pings do not work for IP's) 91.96.210.216 (talk) 22:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

It's important to establish that DYK is viewed by our readers as a trivia section, and to that end we should not expect to see hooks (which, after all, are entirely chosen and verified by a couple of people) that deliberately upset. You can select any number of hooks from any given article, why deliberately select one which is upsetting to brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers/sons/daughters of the subject? Is it for the pageviews I wonder? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with Vanamonde93. Per WP:NOTCENSORED, DYK should not reject hooks just because they may upset some readers, although we need to ensure that facts are presented in a straightforward, non-sensational manner. -Zanhe (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
• WP:NOTCENSORED has to be king here. We cannot just pick and choose what we feature just because we may find the subject matter distasteful. IF it is making jokes about death, then possibly one could argue it may not be best to go but that needs to be decided on a case by case basis. But as long as the hook is factual and sourced inline in the article, we should not allow personal opinions to get in the way as I often find that controversial hooks always attract the extra-level of scrutiny that is never afforded to other hooks just because people don't like the subject matter. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:13, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
• No, arguing WP:NOTCENSORED is utter bollocks when it comes to dealing with sensitive issues that can be completely avoided. DYK is a trivia section. It is recognised universally as such (regardless of what the DYK regulars assert) and we should therefore strive to avoid unnecessarily upsetting individuals or relatives of individuals. You can pick any hook you like from any article you like, it doesn't have to be the one with the least sensitivity and which generates the most anguish, just a for a handful of page views. Sometimes I wonder if any of you realise that human beings read Misplaced Pages and are directly affected by this kind of clickbait garbage. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:03, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
• I'm really unconvinced that we should be using any hook about a crime where the perpetrator hasn't been convicted yet, like this one. Ditto for the upcoming 2010–2017 Toronto serial homicides one. Black Kite (talk) 22:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

• I would be concerned too if the hook mentioned the suspect(s), but this hook only mentions the victims, and the facts about their death/injury are incontrovertible. -Zanhe (talk) 23:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

• Not really the point. The articles do mention the suspects. I'd be a lot happier if articles like this were highlighted after the legal process. Black Kite (talk) 23:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Black Kite: I can see the argument you're making, but I can't see why it's DYK-specific. If we're comfortable featuring unresolved crimes at ITN, why not here? Conversely, if they're a problem here, surely we should do something about ITN, which has wider exposure anyway thanks to mobile view? Much of the controversy over the Toronto van attack blurb was about fidelity to sources vs BLP for a crime without a conviction. Vanamonde (talk) 04:59, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, I realize that, but obviously with ITN we are inevitably going to have to feature crimes that have just happened when they're world news. At DYK, we have the choice. I have absolutely no problem with DYK hooks about crimes, as long as they're not sensationalized or simply click-bait, but I'm uncomfortable with choosing to highlight ongoing cases. Black Kite (talk) 07:28, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Okay, I can respect that, even if I don't necessarily agree. Vanamonde (talk) 07:35, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• While Misplaced Pages may be uncensored, is it really worth it potentially offending real people that read Misplaced Pages just to highlight and get clicks on some article? For the hook in question, imagine the widow or other relatives of the man killed casually looking at Misplaced Pages and seeing their tragedy mentioned. Is showcasing any article really worth potentially causing real emotional pain to people involved or even victim of such situations? And before someone says that all of those things are also in the media, that is true(and they do make a right spectacle out of tragedy) that usually dies down very fast and in this case over i assume. For crimes in general it probably would be best until legal matters are resolved as Black Kite said. For riots... now that is hard to say in my opinion as severety, circumstance, damage etc. can wildly vary as well as there not being single criminal proceedings. This is not about censorship but common courtesy and common sense to a degree and simply being humane. 91.96.210.216 (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

That makes no sense. The article only sources facts from existing reports by respectable media outlets. The victims' relatives have surely already seen tons of coverage about their loss, and we all know how tabloids cover sensational crimes. As long as our article and DYK hook represent the known facts in a neutral, non-sensational manner, there's no reason to believe they would be offended. -Zanhe (talk) 23:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

As i said above, that media coverage is over and all this is is an uncomfortable reminder on their way back to every day life, as far as possible. And they perhaps would not be offended, but i am certain they would not be happy to see it either. A different example, living in Germany there currently is a murder of a young girl in the media. Do you think it would be ethical post that on the main page in six months? How do you think her relatives would react to seeing it here? And is anything that is achieved by posting it on the main page worth it? 91.96.210.216 (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

• There is no compelling reason that DKY should be treated differently from any of the other 4 major sections of the Main Page, all of which have featured murders, deaths, and other "shocking" things any number of times. This feels like an attempt to castrate the project through a death of a thousand cuts.--Kevmin § 00:17, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  Of course there is. Hooks can be selected about any aspect of an article, why focus on those which would be unnecessarily upsetting for friends and families? Please demonstrate where TFA and OTD have featured articles about people who have been killed within the past three months? ITN is a news report and tends to fixate on the numbers, rather than "the newlyweds", and by its nature will feature some reference to disasters, deaths etc, but in a clinical, non-hyped, non-pageview-grabbing fashion. DYK is doing it for the clicks. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:40, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• WP:ERRORS is for the reporting of errors; not a forum for censorship. It is especially unsuitable for discussions because it is so ephemeral. There is no general prohibition on having such items on the main page and ITN routinely lists deaths and disasters. DYK is a miscellany and we commonly expect there to be a mix of different types of item so as to provide variety. That item should not have been pulled. Andrew D. (talk) 07:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  No, it was a good pull, based on being sensitive those who would be close to those killed or injured. Sensationalising recent deaths is completely unnecessary at DYK. Just pick another hook. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• What is actually being gained by posting these types of hooks? I see the argument of censorship by several DYK regulars above... but is not posting stories like this really censorship? You could, if you wanted to, drape the main page in swastikas and celebrate Hitlers birthday by making a theme day. Would anyone who is against that also be censoring DYK? Or would it just be upsetting to people and simply not a good idea? To me, most of this just reads like pride and not wanting outsiders to interfere. By the way, as this RFC relates to the main page, was there any effort made to advertise this discussion anywhere as to get some 'neutral' input? 37.138.76.71 (talk) 10:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC) By the way, i am the same person as the IP above, just as an FYI 37.138.76.71 (talk) 10:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with all of this. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and in answer to your question "what is actually being gained by posting these types of hooks?", well it's that lurid quest for pageviews isn't it? It's an unashamed quest to provide clickbait. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:09, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• TRM stop with the disparaging and belittling broadbrush comments, eg "clickbait garbage peddler". YOUR personal venom against this project is not acceptable behavior.--Kevmin § 11:54, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Then please tell me Kevmin, what is being gained by posting these types of hooks? Or what would be lost by not doing so? Why is it so important to you that we post, as a potential example, the murder of a child a couple months after it happened? 37.138.76.71 (talk) 12:05, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll tell you what "unacceptable behaviour" is Kevmin, it's making light of the recent deaths of two specific individuals just for pageviews. It is, in fact, disgusting and despicable and completely avoidable. I'm struggling to see why so many people find these recent deaths so appealing that they want them featured on the main page of an encyclopedia. Sickening. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• NOTCENSORED is not king here. NOTCENSORED is never king, because NOTCENSORED is always contextual. What might be king, regarding this particular hook but also a more general guiding light, is WP:BLP. —SerialNumber54129 18:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC) {originally signed at 13:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC) with a dodgy number of tildes)

@User:The C of E, re ^^^ —SerialNumber54129 18:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Last time I checked, NOTCENSORED was a Misplaced Pages policy which governs the rules under which we operate which is something we ought to be standing by, particuarly here where often the controversial hooks do get tampered with solely based on the whim of someone who disliked the subject matter despite the fact in accordance with DYK rules, the hook may be fully compliant. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:43, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

The C of E, your persistent mention of NOTCENSORED with the relatively misguided interpretation needs to stop, especially when the second sentence of that very section explicitly mentions "Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Misplaced Pages policies (especially those on biographies of living persons and neutral point of view)". "Compliance with DYK rules" has no bearings here; the argument here is about where do we draw the line on what should we feature at DYK that is consistent with the expectations of our readers. If you would like to argue that our readers should be interested to read about what could be potentially sensationalist hooks at DYK, then please make an argument about that. Like Black Kite said, it's getting tiresome to hear the non-argument of NOTCENSORED when the discussion has nothing to do with censorship. Alex Shih (talk) 18:57, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• I have asked on the talk page of Alex Shih if this could be added to 'centralized discussions' to perhaps get a broader perspective. Having dreadful hooks that may hurt real, living people in Wikipedias name should at least gain consensus by as broad a base as possible and not just by one single project. Just mentioning it for the sake of openness. 37.138.76.71 (talk) 13:11, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• Thanks. I am of the opinion that DYK needs to differentiate itself from ITN; Personally I think DYK should only feature murder, riots etc. hooks only when the subject has wider social impact/historical significance, but I would not support a blanket ban of all murder hooks outright. In any case though, can we start an actual RfC on this to garner wider community attention? Alex Shih (talk) 13:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• Good pull, but I would not overall ban recent murders/riots etc from DYK. Had the hook had some distinguishable fact, perhaps involving the investigative work or the case's social significance, I would be more eager to include. But this version does not present any of that. It pointlessly highlights the deaths of two people. And for what? Pageviews? Aren't we a little better than that and can't we find another topic from the millions out there?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  Just to note, banning all murders makes no sense either. If a murder or other crime happened a long time ago and no one directly affected is still alive, there is no issue. In my opinion, there just is an issue when mother/father/daughter/son etc. can see their tragedy casually mentioned on Wikipedias main page while browsing the web. 37.138.76.71 (talk) 13:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  Indeed, and that's really the whole point. It has literally nothing to do with "NOTCENSORED", it has to do with sensitivity and encyclopedic values. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:52, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• And while were at it, those people who routinely trot out NOTCENSORED when at any time someone suggests that something might not be suitable for Misplaced Pages - it's really bloody tiresome. It's like watching Twitter, where the left are yelling "fascist" at anyone they disagree with, whilst the right are flinging back "libtard" and "SJW". It's completely pointless and it doesn't help your argument. Misplaced Pages is not a rulesocracy and sometimes there is a genuine reason why we don't look good if we're showing certain things, especially on the Main Page; indeed, there are probably occasional exceptions to nearly everything in WP:NOT. Give it a rest and use an actual argument, please. Black Kite (talk) 14:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• While there is absolutely nothing wrong with hooks about murder and other iniquities in my view, I am not at all keen on featuring hooks or articles about unsolved crimes that include information about suspects or people not yet convicted. Gatoclass (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  "While there is absolutely nothing wrong with hooks about murder and other iniquities" you condone featuring hooks about very recently murdered individuals in the pursuit of pageviews? Because I'm struggling to see any encyclopedic value in such hooks at all. As to your latter point, of course we don't feature hooks relating to individuals not convicted of crimes. That's already a principle encompassed by BLP and DYK's own rules. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't say I "condone" such hooks, but I think they are acceptable providing they don't, for example, include gratuitously grisly or sensational details. I haven't seen anything in BLP or the DYK ruleset that prohibits such hooks, perhaps you could quote the passage or passages you see as relevant? Gatoclass (talk) 17:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

What a strange thing to say. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it was already in there, would we? But your position is clear enough. The hook pulled was far too gratuitous and completely unnecessarily insensitive. I'm really saddened to see so many people who are completely missing the point. And all just for pageviews. Truly sickening. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not responsible for what people choose to write about or nominate. We have a set of rules, and if a nomination conforms, it is eligible. I can't disqualify articles based on my own personal preferences. Gatoclass (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Well thankfully we have admins who have common sense and who can see past your approach to help reduce the truly negative impact these kind of lurid clickbait hooks have. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

"Anyone who defends their edits by citing WP:NOTCENSORED doesn't have the first clue." While that is somewhat exaggerated, I really don't see how NOTCENSORED is relevant here. DYK doesn't (or at least shouldn't) just reprint random facts from new articles. They should be carefully selected. At least that's how DYK used to work. Gatoclass is more involved with the project than I, so I'll have to defer to his judgement as to how it works now. But if DYK has devolved to the point that there is no editorial oversight and hooks are just added according to rules and process, it might be time to either make some changes or shut this thing down.

All of that isn't to say that I think it's simple. Recent murders are one thing, but what about wars and genocide? There have always been plenty of hooks about those. Recent wars (say, last 100 years) are just as likely to elicit heavy emotional responses as recent murders. I don't know where one would draw the line, but to say there is no line seems tantamount to abdicating any kind of responsibility for what is put on the main page.--Carabinieri (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say there shouldn't be editorial oversight. I already said we shouldn't feature hooks which highlight grisly or sensational details, and also said that I personally am uncomfortable with articles which touch upon ongoing criminal legal matters. I personally have vetoed substantial numbers of the former, and at least objected to some of the latter. My point was simply that one cannot arbitrarily impose one's personal preferences on the process, there has to be a consistent approach so that nominators understand in advance what is and is not acceptable. But at this point it seems in relation to this particular issue that there is no clear consensus on what that approach should be. Gatoclass (talk) 20:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• "Not yet convicted" is a nonissue, so long as the article is BLP compliant by making clear that any suspects are only suspects alleged to have committed the crime. Obviously if the article contains BLP violations we should never put it on the main page (and should for that matter fix it right away), but criminal suspects absolutely can be written about in a BLP-compliant way. As far as the rest, Misplaced Pages is not censored, even when people may dislike some of the content they see here. We should absolutely never keep something off the main page (or anything else) because we dislike the article content or some people might find it upsetting. I do agree that we should stay within reasonable bounds of good taste, however, and not use "jokey" hooks about recent serious crimes. (Ancient ones are different; we can use humorous hooks about those if we want.) But we should provide information about them to our readers. That's the entire point of writing this project. Seraphimblade 18:31, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  I agree with you in general, although NOTCENSORED does not apply to DYK where hooks can be chosen at will from the article. NOTCENSORED applies in general to articles, and no-one is suggesting that articles linked from DYK should be censored, simply that hooks on the main page in the jokey section shouldn't be lurid and clickbaity to the point where it may cause offence to people actually involved. It's pretty straightforward, just apply some common sense and sensitivity, but from the looks of this discussion, those of us who wish to apply that approach are in the minority. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• This is a thing where people have different views of the mission of WP, and so have different views on hooks like this. I view WP as an educational resource - a place where people come, in order to learn. The goal is to provide them with "accepted knowledge", working in a community of pseudonymous people. I also hold very strongly to WP:NOTNEWS; i very much dislike the parts of WP that get turned into "breaking news" where people are here trying to record the events and to shape the meaning of those events... when the meaning is very, very very far from "accepted knowledge". Anyway. That's how I view WP.

In that view, DYK's should be "come hither" hooks beckoning people to go read the article and learn something. The goal is to spur learning. (If anything gets pulled out of this RfC, I hope it is clarification on what DYK is for - why the community has this section on the front page. Something clearly related to the mission of WP; hooks should be judged based on how well they accord with that.)

From my particular perspective this hook is basically trashy tabloid gossip. I do completely understand that for people who view WP as a newspaper, this is just one more grisly fact like many others shown on the TV news every night, and has every "right" to be featured on the front page. Unsurprisingly, I also don't think the article that is being "hooked" should be in WP; there is nothing there of enduring encyclopedic interest. It is a terrible story for sure. But the page seems to exist because the story "rivited" India for a while. So yeah, tabloid stuff. Not what we do here. Jytdog (talk) 19:18, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, fewer and fewer editors are following the NOTNEWS principle. That brief "riveting" in India, to enough editors, is all that is needed to keep such articles despite whatever policy or guideline is against it. And with plenty online news sources repeating the exact same story, the "easily passes GNG" excuse can be gotten away with at AFD.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes I know. The more important thing (to me) is that the hook should further WP's mission; DYK should not get tunnel vision and just be hook-y for the sake of being hooky. Jytdog (talk) 14:43, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Exactly right. This kind of hook is of no encyclopedic value whatsoever. Those in the DYK project who deem this kind of hook acceptable need realise that they've diverged too far from the main principles of Misplaced Pages. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

DYK is almost overdue

In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:

1. Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
2. Once completed edit queue #5 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
3. Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page

Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Hikaru Akao

Hello. I just created Hikaru Akao a while ago and nominated it for DYK. I noticed that her birthday is coming up on June 16, so it would be really appreciated if the nomination is given a quick review, so that if it passes, the hook could go up on June 16. Thanks. Narutolovehinata5 03:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Reviewed and in the special holding area. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done Promoted to Prep 3. Yoninah (talk) 12:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Clifford Braimah

I reviewed this nomination a few days ago, and the article meets the technical requirements. However, as I've mentioned on the nomination page, I have concerns about Braimah's notability: most of the sources in the article appear to be routine coverage, opinion pages, passing mentions, or statements by him, with only this and this appearing to actually be about him. "Clifford+Braimah"&oq=-wiki+"Clifford+Braimah" A search reveals some more pages about him (such as this press release, this news report, and this report of him receiving an award). Based on these sources, I'm not sure if they're enough to establish his notability. As such, I'm requesting for second opinions here. Narutolovehinata5 01:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

The way to test notability, if it is a concern, is to nominate the article for deletion; the DYK nomination is put on hold until the AfD is resolved, one way or another. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Or ... quicker would be to add the Find Sources template that is used at the top of each AFD nomination. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL That's the tool used to determine notability there. AFD is overwhelmed with hundreds of nominations that mires it down. Quicker to just use their tool. — Maile (talk) 12:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Question about QPQ

Can a nomination be passed in good faith without a QPQ, if the nominator promises he'll repay it in the future?--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:42, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

No. — Maile (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:53, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we should be stricter about the QPQ being done by the nomination deadline. Too many nominators don't bother doing it at all until someone else starts reviewing their own nomination. It doesn't take long to do these (compared to say reviewing GA nominations) so I don't see what excuse there is to delay. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, as WP:IAR is policy and so may override local project rules if there is a good reason. An example of a good reason might be the need to get a nomination completed by a particular date -- a special event such as the recent UK centenary of women's suffrage. Andrew D. (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

As QPQ is not an onerous or particularly time-consuming requirement, I don't think there's a good reason to apply IAR even for special occasions. -Zanhe (talk) 22:39, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Maile and Zanhe that IAR is not relevant here, and QPQs must be provided prior to promotion. QPQ does not take so much time that IAR should ever need to be invoked, and I rather expect that any attempt to do so would result in the hook being pulled or someone graciously donating a review of their own to meet the requirement. I imagine it would depend on who is involved and their reasons for not providing the QPQ: remember, this is someone with over five DYK credits, so they should know the requirements and be prepared for them. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:05, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect but sourced hook tweaked to make it unsourced and factually worse

Template:Did you know nominations/Roza Papo @Surtsicna, Arius1998, and Cwmhiraeth:

The original hook read

• ... that Yugoslavia had more Jewish generals than Israel, including Roza Papo, the first woman general in all the Balkans?

It was then tweaked by Cwmhiraeth to

• ... that when Roza Papo became the first woman general in all the Balkans in 1973, Yugoslavia had more Jewish generals than Israel did?

which has a different meaning than the original.

The original was sourced but wrong; the changed hook was not even sourced. According to the source, "Fourteen Jews rose to the rank of general in the Yugoslav military".

Even if we follow the tweaked hook and only count Jewish generals in Isreal until 1973 (and not until the end of Yugoslavia), we have at least:

1. Yekutiel Adam
2. Avraham Adan
3. Yigal Allon
4. Yisrael Amir
5. Meir Amit
6. Yitzhak Arad
7. Haim Ben-David
8. Aharon Davidi
9. Moshe Dayan
10. Aharon Doron
11. David Elazar
12. Shmuel Eyal
13. Yeshayahu Gavish
14. Shmuel Gonen
15. Shlomo Goren
16. Mordechai Gur
17. Yehoshafat Harkabi
18. Chaim Herzog
19. Yitzhak Hofi
20. Shlomo Lahat
21. Mordechai Limon

...

I don't know why that book reported that quip as if it was true, but when a claim is highly unlikely (Israel was in 1973 an extremely militarized country, and most if not all of their generals would be Jews), then checking whether it is really true is a better option than making the hook worse. Fram (talk) 14:42, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Very few of those articles mention when the subject was appointed general, Fram. Most just say that the subject is/was a general. Some do not even mention that, but merely categorize the subject as an Israeli general. Is it not possible that Yugoslavia did have more Jewish generals than Israel in 1973? Surtsicna (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I specifically selected articles where the person was a general in or before 1973... The quote about Yugoslavia says nothing about 1973 anyway, and considering that 1973 was the year of the Yom Kippur War, when Israel had about 400,000 active troops, it seems extremely unlikely. Fram (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

In any case, "is it not possible" isn't our standard here. There's a lot of potential for better hooks. How about "...that Roza Papo, who nearly lost an eye in an air raid in 1942 after refusing to take shelter, later became the first woman general in all the Balkans?" Sourced with multiple refs. Vanamonde (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

That looks OK to me. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 I'm OK with the alt hook you suggested, except perhaps we could eliminate the word "all", which seems unnecessary. — Maile (talk) 19:16, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I have made the change. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Tense moments at the World Cup

Prep 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Is This the Way to The World Cup @The C of E, Kingoflettuce, and Cwmhiraeth:

• ... that "Is This the Way to The World Cup" predicts that England will win the World Cup?<!--special occasion hook for June 18-->

A few problems:

• the hook is written as if the song predicts that England will win the 2018 World Cup (even though Belgium and Tunesia will eliminate England in the first round), when in reality the song was written for the 2006 World Cup and has nothing to do with the 2018 cup...
• The song doesn't predict that England would win the WC, the song wants England to do this. The lyrics say "ENGLAND WIN THE WORLD CUP", but for the hook to be somewhat factual it should have been "ENGLAND WINs THE WORLD CUP"
• The article has some factual errors, e.g. the song was released on 29 May 2006, not 10 June 2006. 10 June was the day it first appeared in the charts.
• The title of the song is (Is This the Way to) The World Cup, with brackets.

The hook needs to be in the past tense, probably needs to mention that it is about the football WC, and should change to "wanted" or "wished" instead of "predicts". The page should be moved to the right title and the hook changed accordingly. Fram (talk) 07:28, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree that "predict" is not the right word. How about

• ... that "Is This the Way to The World Cup" spurs England on to win the World Cup? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Better, only needs the right title and tense Fram (talk) 08:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll leave the title to someone else, but I think the tense is alright; the lyrics of the song are written in the present tense and exhort the England team to win, so the hook can use the present tense, even though it doesn't indicate that it is about a different World Cup that occurred in the past. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:06, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we can get the song title correct as well. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:20, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

That the lyrics of the song are in the present tense has little relevance to what we write about the song (in-universe vs. out-of-universe). The song wa sfor a previous world cup, and then it encouraged the team. We wouldn't write "...that the song spurs Beckham and Rooney to win the World Cup" (two players mentioned by name in the song), so why would we do it with "England" instead, if it isn't to mislead our readers? Fram (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't a starting point here to be to actually correct the numerous factual errors in the article itself before worrying about what kind of corny hook can be pulled from it? And FWIW, I agree with Fram here, the song is set in the past. Once again we're looking to forgo truth and accuracy for quirk and clickbait. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, this. Pull it. And writing it in the present tense is silly. It should be ... that "Is This the Way to The World Cup" suggested that England would win the 2006 World Cup? (or similar). After all, you wouldn't write "Barack Obama is president of the USA after winning the 2008 election", would you? (Edit: I can't pull this, am writing on a tablet, would almost certainly stuff something up.) Black Kite (talk) 09:48, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• Pulled. We can always reinsert it if it's ready in time. Also, I'm wondering if "...that Tony Christie asked whether this was the way to The World Cup?" would be slightly hookier, in the last slot, of course. Vanamonde (talk) 10:26, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

  "... and then declared it "crap"?" The Rambling Man (talk) 10:45, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

  Even better. Vanamonde (talk) 10:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• I left an open slot for this in Prep 5. Yoninah (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• I am fine with the proposed hook and I have asked @Kingoflettuce: if he can restore the tick. As for the title of it, it is following the precidence of Is This the Way to Amarillo. If that is wrong, then it should be changed too. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• I have approved the revised hook and this still has time to appear on the requested day. Could someone promote it to Prep 5 where there is a slot waiting for it? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:27, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done Narutolovehinata5 09:08, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Prep area 2 (now Prep 5)

"... that Hilmar Hoffmann initiated the Frankfurt Museumsufer of 15 museums, including Germany's first Jewish Museum and its first museum for architecture?"

Is there a way this can be rephrased somehow? If you include the German words, that's four mentions of the word "museum" in the same sentence, which sounds a bit repetitive. Narutolovehinata5 11:41, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

It also seems to be wrong. The museum for architecture was founded in 1984, if I understand the article correctly. However, the Architekturmuseum der Technischen Universität Berlin was already founded in the late 19th century! I think (but feel free to correct me here) that the "Erste", used in the articles to source this, here doesn't mean "oldest" but "primary, most important". The same articles also claim that it had the "erste" German film museum, which is also not true when one takes it to mean "oldest". I don't know whether the Jewish Museum is the oldest or not, I haven't found confirmation or counterevidence so far. Fram (talk) 12:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Stop after the Jewish then? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I also read that Architekturmuseum der Technischen Universität Berlin is a very specialized collection of design drawings, not what I would call a museum of architecture in a broader meaning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The architecture museum claims to fulfill ideas for a national such museum from the 1910s which didn't materialize because of World War I . --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The Frankfurt Jewish Museum is not the first Jewish Museum in Germany either, it isn't even the oldest remaining Jewish museum in Germany. There were such museums before the Second World War, and new ones were opened before Frankfurt (1988). The Jüdisches Kulturmuseum Augsburg-Schwaben dates to 1985, the Raschi-Haus dates to 1982. Fram (talk) 13:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

What the sources seem to mean (more than one) is "first of nationwide importance" (not Augsburg-Swabia). We could carefully say "a Jewish museum" etc., because explaining would make it clumsy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Our article Jewish Museum Frankfurt says "oldest independent Jewish Museum in Germany", stress on independent. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:35, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

This says "first independent Jewish museum ... in postwar Germany", - too complex for DYK. Can we say that Hoffmann is credited with, because he sure is? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I have moved the hook to Prep 5 so there's plenty of time to settle on the correct hook, since Prep 2 will be on the main page in eight hours, and the set could be promoted to queue at any time. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:04, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. I found this, establishing notability without any first. His endavours were noticed in the 1980s already. How about the image of such a person, instead of another bird? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:28, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

ALT1: ... that Hilmar Hoffmann (pictured) initiated the Frankfurt Museumsufer of 15 museums along the river Main, including the Jewish Museum Frankfurt and the German Architecture Museum? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:07, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

That still wouldn't address my original concern of the word "museum" being repeated four times in the hook, though. Narutolovehinata5 21:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Narutolovehinata5 that the repetition isn't ideal. Hoffmann was active in many fields; perhaps that could be mentioned. Or perhaps something short and snappy:

ALT2: ... that Hilmar Hoffmann (pictured) is credited with making Frankfurt a city of culture, not just commerce? Yoninah (talk) 22:07, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that's too general. Museumsufer is so unusual/unique that it deserves mentioning.

ALT3: ... that cultural politician Hilmar Hoffmann (pictured) initiated the Museumsufer, including the Jewish Museum Frankfurt? - I'd like to include "Kultur for alle" or "begnadeter Bettler", but the latter is hard to translate, "gifted" and "talented" are just to small, "blessed with the talent" is too long ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:30, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Yoninah and Gerda Arendt: What about combining ALT2 and ALT3 to make:

ALT4: that politician Hilmar Hoffmann (pictured) initiated the Museumsufer, thus being credited as making Frankfurt a city of culture, not just commerce?

In addition, something tells me that the lead picture in Museumsufer might work better as a hook image than Hoffman's image. Narutolovehinata5 09:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for trying, but I like the positive image of the Jewish Museum more than the negative of commerce (and crime, btw). It's also many of his other initiatives that helped earning him the credit, not only the museums. I don't like any of the images in Museumsufer, because they don't really show the museums. Will work on it. But right now there's RL, and then, sadly, another great person who died, and had just a stub of an article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

As this is in the next prep set to be promoted, I've returned it to the noms page for further work. Yoninah (talk) 00:31, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

DYK is almost overdue

In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:

1. Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
2. Once completed edit queue #2 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
3. Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page

Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 22:07, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Side note on the phrasing of this notice: You don't use "between" when giving a range like "6-10". It is either "between 6 and 10" or simply "6-10". I have no idea where to go to fix this and no idea if it is even open to editing by most people, but SOMEBODY needs to fix it. --Khajidha (talk) 02:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4

• ... that Indian Prime minister P. V. Narasimha Rao called the Parkala Massacre the "Jallianwala Bagh of the south"?

This isn't actually an issue with the article, but with the hook. It calls Rao India's prime minister. Except: 1. he's dead, and 2. he's no longer PM (he was many years ago, though). The hook might be confusing for those who are unfamiliar with Indian politics, as it might imply that Rao and not Modi is India's incumbent PM. Could there be a way to rephrase this hook to emphasize that Rao is not the incumbent? Narutolovehinata5 03:23, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• ALT1: ... that former Indian Prime minister P. V. Narasimha Rao called the Parkala Massacre the "Jallianwala Bagh of the south"? Yoninah (talk) 10:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

  Why is Prime capitalised and minister not? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Yoninah and The Rambling Man: In addition, I also have concerns about the hook interest: most people outside of India (including myself) are probably unaware of what the Jallianwala Bagh massacre is in the first place, so those who don't know it may not be able to appreciate the comparison. Perhaps a more internationally appropriate hook could be suggested here? Narutolovehinata5 10:54, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• ALT1 is better(former Indian Prime Minister). The concern of international audience is genuine but I am unable to think of a simple way to to explain Jallianwala Bagh massacre in that line. --Gian ❯❯ Talk 11:18, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• Agree with Narutolovehinata5. It's like comparing apples to oranges when you've never seen a fruit. The hook should be returned to the noms page and rewritten. Yoninah (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• I've pulled it from prep, discussion can continue on the nomination page. Narutolovehinata5 23:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

  The Prime Minister of the largest democracy compared to a massacre of a 1000 people by British troops? If that's not interesting to a broad audience, I'm a bit concerned about the audience. If it's just a question of making this factoid clear, we could add a descriptor to the massacre: ...the Jallianwallahbagh massacre, in which several hundred protesters were killed by British troops?" That just makes it wordier, though, and would require more not-directly-relevant material to be added to the article. Vanamonde (talk) 05:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• The Jallianwala Bagh massacre was previously referred to in Britain as the Amritsar massacre. However (as in yesterday's TheGuardian.com- "British government ordered to open Amritsar massacre files") the term now refers to the Golden Temple assault of 1984. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• I have added two alternative hooks now, please see if they are any better. Thanks! --Gian ❯❯ Talk 08:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Oldest nominations needing DYK reviewers

The previous list was archived less than an hour ago; here is an updated list with all 31 older nominations that need reviewing, which covers those through June 8. Right now we have a total of 184 nominations, of which 55 have been approved. Thanks to everyone who reviews these, especially the ones from February and March and the six still remaining from April.

Over three months old:

• February 24: Template:Did you know nominations/An Wasserflüssen Babylon
• March 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Isabelle Druet
• March 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Endsleigh Gardens
• March 6: Template:Did you know nominations/Mindy Alper

Over two months old:

• April 1: Template:Did you know nominations/Shmerke Kaczerginski
• April 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Piano Quartets (Beethoven) (only new hook needs review)
• April 9: Template:Did you know nominations/Non-science

Over one month old:

• April 19: Template:Did you know nominations/Tammie Jo Shults (two articles)
• April 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Intel 5-level paging
• April 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Da der Herr Christ zu Tische saß
• May 8: Template:Did you know nominations/2018–19 RFU Championship
• May 11: Template:Did you know nominations/Rantzen v Mirror Group Newspapers (1986) Ltd and others

Other old nominations:

• May 20: Template:Did you know nominations/Walter Kenrick Fisher
• May 28: Template:Did you know nominations/2017–18 Thai temple fraud investigations
• May 29: Template:Did you know nominations/List of UK Singles Sales Chart number ones
• June 1: Template:Did you know nominations/070 Shake
• June 1: Template:Did you know nominations/Finniston Report
• June 1: Template:Did you know nominations/Mining in Sweden
• June 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Lake Logan State Park
• June 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Spygate (conspiracy theory)
• June 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Nun jauchzt dem Herren, alle Welt
• June 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Diwaliben Bhil
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Britta Stallmeister
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/DPP v Santana-Bermudez
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Tremp Formation
• June 6: Template:Did you know nominations/Giulia Bongiorno
• June 6: Template:Did you know nominations/Indian National Theatre
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Cidaris blakei
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Tony Ridley
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Andreas Großmann
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Lyperobius huttoni
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Sun Fuling
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Asgardians of the Galaxy

Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 02:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Pierre Boulez

Pierre Boulez is now in prep without image. Really, for an article of that quality (not by me)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I asked another editor to promote it, but s/he declined. I can't do it because I did the review. Could another editor promote this to an image slot? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 21:36, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay. I have moved him to Prep 3, and promoted another biographical article to re-fill Prep 1. I moved him so there would not be two head-and-shoulders images in a row. I would not normally select a black and white image of a man for the lead myself; I guess I should be paying more attention to the quality of the article and less to that of the image. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Hawkeye7. Yoninah (talk) 23:21, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Unilateral hook change

So in the next queue, we have a hook which was variously discussed (at the nomination even above, on this very page) and consensus was formed around a specific hook. That hook was then changed, without discussion, by Gatoclass who has deemed it necessary to assert a personal preference (which has not been discussed anywhere I can see) over a general consensus of a number of editors, with a misleading edit summary of "tweak for accuracy" (instead of, say, "complete hook revision". I suggest the original hook be restored immediately and that Gatoclass be reminded to stop making such edits as they are disruptive and completely unbecoming of an admin who should not be making such unilateral late decisions and who, if changing the hook which had so much discussion here, should have at least pinged the various individuals involved before locking in his personal preference. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with TRM here @Gatoclass:, I'm not happy with this unilateral change and would rather the original (or the original original) be put back please. It does seem rather unacceptable to me to do it without even giving me the courtesy of a ping or dropping me a message. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I missed the above discussion when I promoted that set last night. Regardless, I still think a tweak was necessary. The original hook was ... that Tony Christie asked whether this was the way to The World Cup and then declared it "crap"? The problem with it is that it is inaccurate and misleading as it appears to state that Christie declared the World Cup crap, when in fact he was referring to the song he made about it (not directly mentioned in the hook). I'm fine with hooks that innocuously mislead with double meanings, so long as the hook can be read either way without grammatical contortions. I don't believe that is the case here as in order to extract the hidden meaning, you have to read the hook to mean - not that he declared the World Cup, or even the way to the Cup crap - but that "he declared his asking crap", which is a very awkward construction at best. Other than that, I still think my tweak was an improvement, but if there's a consensus among independent users that the untweaked hook was better (I take TRM's opposition with a large grain of salt as he appears to reflexively oppose almost everything I do here) I have no objection to it being changed back. Paging Cwmhiraeth, Vanamonde93, BlueMoonset, Yoninah, Black Kite, Narutolovehinata5 who all participated in the earlier discussion. Gatoclass (talk) 04:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Gatoclass Put the original hook back. The point was it was hooky, and just fine, so fix it now, back to the consensus-based version, and if there's a consensus in favour of your own personal version, then you can change it back once again. In the mean time, stop the continual filibustering. And stop making unilateral decisions, locking your own decisions down, and then disappearing. Highly disruptive. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and you can't take my opinion with a "large grain of salt" simply because you have abused your position here and I've called you out on it. As noted, where were you when the large discussion happened over the hook? The "independent users" you noted also didn't include the originator of the hook, your approach here is completely wrong. It will not continue. Fix the hook back now and wait for a consensus for your own personal version. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I think Gatoclass' version is better than the approved version and advocate leaving the hook as it is. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

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