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Before 5th Century BCE, the planet Mercury actually had two names, as it was not realized it could alternately appear on one side of the Sun and then the other. Mercury was called Mercury when in the evening sky, but was known as Apollo when it appeared in the morning. Pythagoras is credited for pointing out that they were one and the same. - Sparky

vegetarian

Well, tennant 22 of the Pythagorean Maxims (as listed in the Phanes Press "Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library") is: "Abstain from eatting animals." So, that's pretty clear.

The biography recorded by Diogenes Laertius also makes it clear in section 12 that this follows as part of the Pythagorean beliefs about universal friendship and equality. It is also written there that there is some confusion surrounding a diet book written by Pythagoras encouraging athletes to train while eatting meat instead of the usual athletic diet of dried figs and cheese. This, however, was NOT written by Pythagoras of Samos, but by a different Pythagoras. This might be the source of your confusion. The Pythagoras of Samos was, indeed a very strict vegetarian, and, in fact, encouraged eatting of any "animal foods" in moderation. I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion.

dude, i think he was a

I don't get what the hell you are talking about... AllyMcD 04:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved here so that somebody can figure out how to salvage... Stan 03:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Pythagoras proved that music (and everything else) had very much to do with mathematical laws of proportion.

He used his rational knowledge to prove that harmonious melodies are related to mathematical ratios: He discovered that if you pluck two strings which have the same tension, and then divide one of them exactly in half, the pitch of the shorter string is exactly one octave higher than the longer one. "

Pythagoras’s followers discovered that different musical modes have different effects on the person who hears them. They claim that Pythagoras once cured a young man by prescribing a certain melody. Still today there are clinics which use therapy accompanied by music.

But sound waves can have a very negative effect on peoples subconscious as Patrick Flanagan, a modern controversial thinker, states. The human ear can only hear certain frequencies but our subconscious takes in other levels of sound we cannot make out. The same way we can learn while asleep by playing a tape or something.

He claims that this discovery is being used very frequently today to subliminally control peoples mind. He claims that a lot of stores like Wal-Mart use it to persuade people to buy products or not to steal. It is most often played with the background music which itself is calm and relaxing. Patrick states that it is used everywhere, from power poles to cell phone antennas. It can make people tired, lazy or the opposite, angry and excited."

´The first part i utterly confused and hard to follow, and that last part sounds more like a conspiracy theory. I will see if I can write up something serious on musical scales instead... Nixdorf

there's something wrong with the greek link to Pythagoras ( Πυθαγόρας ) and i can't seem to fix it. =/

Should be fixed...it actually just pointed to a non-existant article, since the article on el: is at Pythagoras of Samos (or Pythagoras the Samian I guess, Πυθαγόρας ο Σάμιος). Adam Bishop 02:00, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On anachronistic links: IMHO the =External Links= section should be open to views that wouldn't be appropriate in the article - otherwise they risk spilling over into the text, especially in a subject like "Pythagoras" that tends to attract cranks. I say we do our best to note the perspective they come from and leave them in even if they're beyond the pale of good scholarship. Getting into an edit war over it isn't worth our time. Bacchiad 21:35, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a disambig article somewhere? There are at least 3 Pythagoras: this one, the crater on the moon, and the Greek sculptor. --Yurik 19:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd heard, a while ago, that it's speculated that Pythagoras stole some of his works from his students or some others. Anyone got a source for this? I'd like to see it added to the article, whether it's true or false. Nathyn 06:47, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I think it's not so much stole as much as the group attributing all of their discoveries to their leader, Pythagoras. Either way, it's an interesting point for investigation. JYolkowski // talk 18:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

It is speculated/believed by sone/many historians that Pythagoras never existed (but was rather a mythical father-figure for the Pythagoreans). Certainly the fact that all the "primary sources" listed wrote more than five centuries after his alleged dates is a bad sign. Shouldn't this be mentioned somewhere? - Algebraist 23:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

That isn't true at all. Classical scholarship dismisses such speculation. Since the late nineteenth century no serious historian has ever doubted the historicity of Pythagoras. Of course many stories about him are suspect, or obvious fiction, and generations of scholars have made enormous efforts to separate legend and fact, but there is no doubt whatsoever among scholars that he is historical. As for the primary sources, there are explicit statements by Heraclitus, who was a contemporary (and strong critic) of Pythagoras. Those statements are unanimously accepted as authentic by classical scholars, and they are first-class evidence. 85.212.189.181 13:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Algebraist, I think you misunderstood the statement that the Pythagorean Theorem wasn't attributed to Pythagoras for five centuries. Even though the Theorem wasn't attributed to him, lots of other things were. As well doubt the existance of Socrates. Rick Norwood 00:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

BC vs. BCE

I prefer BC, just because that is what I grew up with. But the official Wiki style sheet requires BCE (B.C.E.???). Comments? Rick Norwood 19:27, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the MoS doesn't require BCE. According to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article.". Since the article is already written using BC, it probably makes the most sense to leave it as it is. JYolkowski // talk 20:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Surname

Hi,

Is his last name (surname) not known?

Thanks, 17:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The concept of a surname had not yet been invented. Two people with the same name were identified by their birthplace, thus Plato of Athens and Plato of Smyrna. Rick Norwood 18:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I know the first surnames were your occupation (such as hunter, etc) but when was that? I thought Pythagoras was his last name, and his first name was just like his birthdate, lost track of?? AllyMcD 03:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Hypocrite vs. Hippocratic Oath

I find it odd that the Hippocratic Oath of the Pythagorean Brotherhood states, "First do no harm"; when Pythagoras himself drowned Hippasus after not wanting to believe that Hippasus's discovery of the square root of 2 is irrational. Even though it was common back then to give credit to a famous teacher of the discoveries of his students, In my opinion, I find his action of murder being hypocritical of his hippocratic oath.

Kelly C. Grube 10/20/05

This story is almost certainly a myth. Rick Norwood 19:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

That incident happened long after Pythagoras was dead (if he even existed) and the real MYTH (important keyword there) states it was his followers. Professor Patrick Norton, University of West Ireland 11:09, 6 February 2006.

the earth a globe

I'd like to see a reference for the claim that Pythagoras was the first person to discover that the earth is a globe. Rick Norwood 19:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Really? I though that Columbus (or is it Columbi?)guy discovered the Earth is a globe? 13:38 4 March 2006

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Pythagoras.html It sites three sources, I'll leave it to you to dig through those three to find the exact reference. Also, Eratosthenes is generally credited with being the first to calculate the circumference of the earth (276BC-194BC), so I think its fair to say there were a number of people to believe the Earth was a globe. Columbus neither proved, nor discovered it, and actually believe it to be 1/3 its current size. The first person to circumnavigate the Earth generally goes to Ferdinand Magellan who never did it in a single trip, but did visit the Philippines coming from both directions. I suppose you could say he was the first person to prove that the earth was round.

Scientific contributions

The section on Scientific contributions contains a number of doubtful claims. For example, if the Egyptians were more advanced mathematically than the Greeks of the 6th century BCE, none of that writing survives. There is much more written Mesopotamean mathematics than there is Egyptian. The only Egyptian reference to the Pythagorean theorem is a single mathematical problem the answer to which is a 3, 4, 5 triangle. Also, the references to mathematics in China is controversial -- usually dated from the Han dynasty but claimed by some to be much older. This controversy is interesting, but does not belong here.

With some trepedation, I am going to attempt a rewrite, attempting to focus on what is known about the Pytahgoreans rather than on claims of prior knowledge of the theorem by other cultures, which is discussed extensively in the article Pythagorean theorem. Rick Norwood 01:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Vegetarian

The fact he's considered one of the world's first famous vegetarians, should probably get at least a mention in the article Sherurcij 12:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually he was anti-vegetarian; he considered the avoidance of meat to be a taboo. The guy probably misunderstood. I don't know why people are still getting this wrong. I've come across this on numerous sources; it's not like it's new info. I remember doing a paper on this about 10 years ago in HS and even my teacher got it wrong until I pointed the wording out to her. The "Pythagoreans" was a reference to people who attended the school Pythagoras had, dealing with philosophy and religion and such. He got a lot of sh*t, because a lot of the leaders didn't have any idea what he was talking about and he was very selective (you had to already "get it," in other words), so there was obviously a lot of propaganda put out to make him into some sort of a cult leader (Rome and Brittain??); there's also significant evidence he knew magi and druids at some point of his life.. -Anonymous

>Anonymous, can you give some references to this? I'm inclined to believe you, I should say. This I do because Milo (the wrestler), one of the most famous first-generation Pythagoreans, was famous for eating enourmous quantities of meat. -August

Playing with the dates.

If no-one is sure of Pythagoras's (?) birthdate & deathdate, isn't there a grave stone some one can go and check somewhere? On another subject though, it sounds like Pythagoras was a bit of a madman to me. All those things this website says about those people who lived at his school... That really doesn't sound at all normal if you ask me. Does anyone know if he had mental issues? -- 4 March 2006

People are having some fun playing with the dates. The fact is that very little is known with any certainty about Pythagoras, and his dates are a matter of which source you read. Also, there are people who amuse themselves by changing BCE to BC and other people who amuse themselves changing BC back to BCE. Like Earth itself, this is mostly harmless. Rick Norwood 13:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know (or, frankly, care) exactly when Pythagoras was born and when he died, or which dates the article should give. I do think it's important that if the dates given in the first line are changed, the categories should also be changed to reflect this.

If we can't state dates with any certainty, this should also be reflected in the first line. TheMadBaron 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Rick Norwood 13:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused as to what BC is, and what BCE is? What's the difference? I heard somewhere it was the same timezone, they were just changing it because now it's even longer ago than it was afew years ago....? - 13:43, 4 March 2006220.239.2.137 03:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

B.C.E. is the secular-humanist way of referring to B.C. The usage of Before Christ and Anno Domine is Christian, and so B.C.E. and C.E. are used as substitutes. B.C.E. means "Before Common Era" and C.E. means "Common Era". La Pizza11 02:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Pythagoreanims

I've fixed some of the mistakes in the recent large addition on Pythagoreanism. I found it interesting reading, but wonder whether a lot of it does not belong in the article Pythagoreanism rather than here. Rick Norwood 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Dates

I know that Pythagoras lived from 582 BC to 507 BC.It said so in Webster's dictionary.

I trust you are being facetious but just in case you are not -- Pythagoras lived so long ago that the exact dates of his birth and death are uncertain, as are many facts about his life. Rick Norwood 00:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Places

Does anyone here know WHERE Pythagoras died? - AllyMcD 04:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC) Does anyone know when he was born?

doubtful claims

I've removed some doubtful claims from the article. I followed the link that was given in support of these claims, and found material that is not NPOV, of which the following sentence is an example, "The great and compassionate heart of Pythagoras ached with helpless pity for those weak souls who had strayed from the Path." Rick Norwood 19:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Image

What about an image of Pythagoras?-User:Agoodperson

Of course, nobody knows what Pythagoras looked like, but we already have two images. I've moved one higher up in the article. I wouldn't mind seeing another image in the "scientific" section -- maybe something illustrating the Music of the Spheres. Rick Norwood 13:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Can't blow bubbles in a pond?

I'm going to delete this unless someone can confirm it. Rick Norwood 22:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Croton Crotona

Greek names are inflected, that is, the spelling changes depending on where the name appears in a sentence. The most famous example of this is the Greek god Deus, whose name becomes Zeus in the (I think) objective case. When transliterated into English, various endings have become standard, for example, Mark rather than Marcus. Other names, such as Hero/Heron, have never been standardized. Rick Norwood 14:04, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Some questions

hi , I have some questions and need your help !

1.Actually , what was Pythagoras interested in ? Is it philosophy , music , religious or mathematics ? as the article said " Pythagoras and his students believed that everything was related to mathematics and thought that everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles.", he was likely not interested in religious , but he is a great philosopher and founder of the mysterious religious

2. Did people in Pythagoras’s time notice the special relationship between the sides of a right- angled triangle?

3.Why was Pythagoras recognized for the theorem though it had been used before him?

Thanks

1) Pythagoras thought of himself as a philosopher and was interested in demonstrable truth. In terms of religion, what he is known for are things that would be associated with the god Apollo, that is, music, healing, wisdom and opposition to political corruption. His studies included geometry and astronomy but he also devoted his time to politics and assisting in the conduct of wars in his time. 2) Pythagoras supposedly celebrated his discovery of the theorem. He probably came up with an argument proving it from simpler facts and is likely to have shared this information with other mathematicians at this time in a gathering of some sort. Pythagoras existed at a time when there was no publishing industry and knowledge was passed on orally from one generation to the next. He was primarily concerned with the pursuit and spread of knowledge and education in the Greek world and in the process exposing them to ideas from the eastern Mediterranean. 3) The reason that he might have gotten credit for the theorem is that he was seen as a source of wisdom beyond that normally encountered and of a higher realm. He is supposed to have advised the people of his time to build institutions devoted to the Muses and his interest in increasing respect for knowledge may have led him to imitate the organization of the priesthood in Egypt and borrow from other religions. --Jbergquist 10:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

influence on Plato

just added paragraph on pythagoras influence on plato- feel free to change/adapt/remove according to your opinion--Greece666 20:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The name Pythagoras

According to Iamblichus, because of his "moral teachings, Pythagoras deserved no longer to be called by his patronymic..." which leads one to wonder if "Pythagoras" was a nick name or an honorific of some sort. The oracle of Apollo at Delphi was named Pythia and the greek word for "market place" was "agora", so would the moniker "Pythagoras" refer to an "oracle of the market place"? The reference in Iamblichus ends "...but that all men should call him divine." --Jbergquist 07:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Cylon

There is more that one version of the death of Pythagoras and one also wonders about whether or not there was a Cylon. There is a Greek word χυλοσ which translates as pap or chyle and which suggests something not worth keeping. But with Pythagoras' strict discipline there may be some truth to the story.--Jbergquist 07:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Acousmatikoi and Mathematikoi

Hello, The article on Pythagorans, in the part about the Pythagoreans states that: "The akousmatikoi recognized the mathematikoi as real Pythagoreans, but not vice versa." It is actually the other way around. Here is the relevant qoute from Iamblichus (translated by Kirk, Raven and Schofield)

"There are two varieties of the Italian philosophy which is called Pythagorean. For those who practised it were also of two sorts, the acusmatici and the mathematici. Of these the acusmatici were accepted as Pythagoreans by the other patry but they did not allow that the mathematici were Pythagoreans, holding that their intellectual pursuits derived not from Pythagorans but from Hippasus."

G.S. Kirk, J.E. Raven, M. Schofield, 'The Presocratic Philosophers', Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1983 (2nd edition, p. 234.

Cheers.

this seems interesting- maybe the phrase in the article should be reformulated.--Greece666 11:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

The birth and death dates in the article text don't match the corresponding categories. AnonMoos 17:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Pythagoras

I've started an approach that may apply to Misplaced Pages's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Pythagorians

I was tempted to mark the whole article as lacking references while I was reading the pythagorians section. It seems to be written in from a personal perspective (see NPOV), e.g. it is interspersed with "seems like". Furthermore it lacks references. --Ben /_C 23:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Could you be more specific about what you do not like about the Pythagoreans section. FDR | MyTalk 21:09:51 October 30, 2006 (UTC)

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