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Waldorf Master Teacher section

I think this section needs major revision. First of all, lengthy quotations are generally unsuitable for encyclopedia articles. Second, the transcript of this talk isn't very professional. There are numerous redactions where the actual spoken text is substituted with the transcriber's "summary". Third, the quoted section makes no mention of PLANS, and it's unclear to what degree the attribution to Dugan also applies to PLANS. It is out-of-context, so it's not even clear how Schwartz is in agreement with Dugan in this quote, because Schwartz describes that the religious references have been taken "out" of the public schools' Waldorf program, which undercuts the PLANS lawsuit charging the public schools with practicing religion.

The words of just one teacher taken from a poorly transcribed presentation don't deserve a section all to itself. Presuming Dugan is synonymous with PLANS to Schwartz in this talk, presentation could be referenced, but to make the point, I think a better quote to take from the lecture might be, "Dan has not created the problem: he is casting a harsh and terrible light on it--but he's not the cause. The cause is already there in the Waldorf movement. He's just bringing it, in the worst way possible, to consciousness." Professor marginalia 16:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I would have no problem substituting the portion of the lecture you have proposed. But the portion of the lecture that is quoted currently describes how Waldorf is indeed teaching religion to a great degree and this supports the need for the court action. The degree to which religious references have been taken out of the public school version of Waldorf is, of course, for the court to decide. They still pray, for example. Regarding the "words of one teacher", it must be noted that Eugene Schwarts was the head of teacher training for Waldorf schools in North America... not just a teacher... the teacher of teachers. What he had to say here was of significant importance and cost him his job. --Pete K 18:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the portion of the lecture describes a practice in a private school, not public school, and Schwartz is lamenting that the public Waldorf methods students won't participate in the religious experiences which are allowed in private school. In any case, this article is about PLANS, and Schwartz is contradicting PLANS's argument in this particular passage, which is fine, but the passage would belong then in the "criticism" section, instead of where it is now, trying to make the point about the value of PLANS as a "watchdog". Even then, it's still too lengthy. Professor marginalia 18:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I still don't understand why this particular passage from Schwartz (recently reinserted) is being used to illustrate this "watchdog" thesis. When this speech was made, public schools had already been told by the private Waldorf school association (which owns the name) they would not have permission to call themselves "Waldorf". Nobody on the private Waldorf side would be "punished" for agreeing with this in an oral presentation. The public schools that call themselves Waldorf are ignoring the private Waldorf association's copyright.Professor marginalia 00:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about the *trademark* (not copyright) of the Waldorf name? The name "Waldorf" belongs to AWSNA - that's Association of Waldorf Schools in North America. It doesn't designate it's association with schools as public or private. Your case, BTW, is easy to make now that you've deleted the context of the lecture. The issue was that Eugene Schwartz publicly declared that Anthroposophy is a religion and that Waldorf schools are religious schools - WHILE Waldorf was trying to make a case that Anthroposophy is NOT a religion. It was, indeed, on this that the PLANS case was based. That public Waldorf schools had the Anthroposophical trappings removed was very easy to dispute in court. The issue was whether those trappings, the presence and influence of Anthroposophy in public schools - especially in the curriculum - constituted a religious enterprise. Eugene Schwartz, through his wonderful honesty, put the Waldorf people in a bad way with regard to this court case - because they were lying through their teeth about Anthroposophy not being a religion - and he pointed that out and asked them to come clean. That's why Mr. Schwartz was demoted. But as long as you continue to remove the relevant portions of the lecture, nobody here will see this. I'm guessing I might add them back in soon. --Pete K 02:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't "remove" this particular passage. I shared my concern on the discussion page in order to give editors a chance to respond. You agreed to the replacement I made. AWSNA does not permit public schools to use the name "Waldorf". Public schools are precluded from calling themselves "Waldorf" schools. And at no point in this lecture does Schwartz ever say that anthroposophy is a religion. We can't go so far to try and "connect dots" and fortify evidence to key disputes with specifics that aren't actually in the sourced text. Professor marginalia 04:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous waste of time to argue with you over what you pretend not to know or see. I'm going to replace the entire passage as it was. The best way for people to determine what was said is to see the actual words. --Pete K 14:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I can read perfectly well.

1. The transcription has been redacted throughout, including right in the middle of this quoted passage. The transcription has many, many instances where the actual quoted statements are replaced with another individual's summaries, which leaves questions about the legitimacy of the transcription.
2. In what's left, the speaker is complaining that the public school child is not allowed to pray in the Waldorf school. That's why he doesn't want public schools calling themselves Waldorf schools. It is not such a radical view that he would be fired over this-it's the official policy of AWSNA that it will support only private schools and schools must be qualified by AWSNA to call themselves Waldorf.
3. The passage doesn't even talk about PLANS's value as a "watchdog" group. It's a weird non sequitur to put it here.
4. Lengthy quotes don't belong in encyclopedia articles
5. And now a further challenge has been raised that the whole thing looks like it is taken from an unpublished source.

Admin has cautioned that concerns should be brought to this talk page before making major changes. When I brought the concern here, you agreed to my proposed change before I made it. Professor marginalia 15:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

If you *can* read perfectly well, then you *should*. That you question the transcription is not a valid reason to remove the quote. The speaker is explaining that Waldorf schools are religious schools - that this is their intent, and he implies that this is what new Waldorf teachers are taught - by HIM. You apparently are unable to comprehend why his dismissal took place, despite having it explained to you, so there is little reason to accept your misunderstanding of what happened here. Regarding the term "watchdog" - that is a term that is a common description of groups that cast a "hard light" on other groups. Regarding the length of the quote - it is preferable to produce a lengthy quote that demonstrates the context of what is being said, rather than an abreviated quote that distorts what was said. What you stripped away left a tiny quote that led the way for others to wipe out the entire section completely. Not kosher. The significance of this lecture, by master Waldorf teacher Schwartz, is that it confirms the religious nature of Anthroposohy - which is the point of the PLANS lawsuit. That he was fired then, and that you are trying to revise history by deleting the lecture now, demonstrates how important this lecture was. --Pete K 16:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand. The dispute is not over whether or not private Waldorf schools have prayers and other religious practices. In an article written by Dan Dugan, founder of PLANS, he quotes the brochure given to him by his own son's private school (published in 1981). The brochure says virtually the same thing Schwartz says.

The brochure: "Are the schools religious? In the sense of subscribing to the tenets of a particular denomination or sect, the answer is No. However, the schools are "religious in a higher sense of the word, and they are based on the Christian perspective of Western civilization".

Schwartz: "we are schools that inculcate religion in children. But it's a different kind of religion, because it leaves them free to find their own religious path or not. We have Waldorf graduates who are devoutly orthodox Jews, who are now sending their own children to my own third grade class; we have Waldorf graduates who are Islamic, one of whom in fact took the teacher training with me recently; Waldorf graduates who are atheists. That is fine--we are not trying to create one of person; rather we are trying to open up the religious font that is the child's right as a human being."

PLANS goes farther than this by claiming that anthroposophy is itself a religion, and all its schools are sectarian. Schwartz does not say this in the lecture. Instead he goes on at length about the various religions represented in private Waldorf classrooms. PLANS says that public Waldorf schools cannot successfully separate themselves from religion. Schwartz has the opposite complaint, that the public schools cannot be Waldorf schools because they aren't allowed to have any religion. Here Schwartz confirms the religious aspect of private Waldorf schools, yes, but does not say anthroposophy itself is a religion. From what I understand, he was later fired as Director of the teacher program, but continued as a teacher there. There is probably more to the story, because PLANS decided not to have Schwartz testify, though for awhile they listed him as a witness. PLANS ended up having no witnesses at all, they needed witnesses and claimed during the trial itself they couldn't find any. Obviously, they didn't think Schwartz agrees with them about this as much as you seem to. Professor marginalia 18:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it is my understanding that they called two witnesses that were on the defense's witness list - one of them was, as I recall, Betty Staley - another master Waldorf teacher. The judge would not allow them to call these witnesses because they were defense witnesses (Waldorf teachers actually make excellent witnesses FOR the PLANS case) but there is a problem with the date of the ruling - it is based on something that superceded the conditions at the time of the calling of the witnesses. This is what the appeal is about. What is "obvious" however, is that you haven't a clue why Eugene Schwartz wasn't called - or whether he will be on future witness lists, or whatever. All your comments above are speculative. I happen to agree with Schwartz, BTW, I don't believe Waldorf schools can work as Waldorf schools without Anthroposophy. And that is really the issue because public Waldorf schools do NOT toss out Anthroposophy, they simply try to disguise it. If you read the Sac Bee articles referenced, you will see that many of the teachers didn't agree with the "philosophy" - what philosophy are they talking about? Anthroposophy, of course. --Pete K 19:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Your understanding is incorrect. PLANS intended Schwartz to testify as an expert witness, listed him as such, and later withdrew him from the list. You are correct that I don't know why. I am correct that PLANS needed witnesses, desperately. They lost the case due to the fact they didn't have any.Professor marginalia 20:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the case is being appealed so I don't think it's fair to say they have lost yet. We should at least wait until the appeals process has been exhausted. --Pete K 18:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggested revision Master Teacher

I found a better source to present Schwartz's position. This one is published, and Schwartz is quoted directly. This resolves the ambiguities in the passage we've been talking about, and doesn't resort to lengthy unencyclopedic quoting.

Info is taken from the June 20, 2001 issue of Education Week, by David Ruezel. He uses the term "prominent teacher and lecturer", which may be more supportable than "Master Teacher" which infers it's an official title or award as it is in public education--if it is an official title, is there a source? Also this references an article written by Gary Lamb. Both should be listed in endnotes.

"There are Waldorf education supporters who agree with PLANS' insistence that Waldorf education does not belong in the government schools. Waldorf educator, Gary Lamb, argued in a 1994 article that independence from state control was one of the key tenets in Steiner's original vision for the Waldorf schools. He also argued that by bringing the methods to the public school system, Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner will be attacked in court rooms and in the media by fundamentalists and secular humanists applying their own interpretations of the spiritually-based philosophy, Anthroposophy, in order to challenge the constitutionality of public Waldorf methods education.

"Eugene Schwartz is a prominent teacher and author who started a controversy with remarks made in his 1999 speech delivered during a conference held at Sunbridge College, where he served as director of Waldorf teacher training. During the speech, Schwartz agreed with PLANS founder Dan Dugan, who was also in attendance, that Waldorf education could not properly be separated from Anthroposophy. In his view, though Waldorf education was not sectarian, it means to make everything sacramental, and Schwartz objected to those educators who would reject the movement's religious aspect to suit the requirements of public education. Schwartz was fired from the position shortly after, and in a later interview, claimed there were many other Waldorf teachers who agreed but were afraid to speak out. In the interview, Schwartz claimed private Waldorf schools endeavor to bring religious experiences to children, and insisted that public Waldorf methods schools were watered-down imitations of authentic Waldorf." Professor marginalia 17:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, I rather like that quote. I wouldn't object to using it. Would you object to referencing the 1999 lecture itself where it is mentioned? --Pete K 17:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean link it? The lecture itself is copyright by Eugene Schwartz, which he sells: http://millennialchild.com/CD02.htm . I don't think it's okay to link it at wikipedia because it's a commercial webpage. The transcript linked earlier sure seems like it's probably an unauthorized 'bootleg', so it shouldn't be included either. Professor marginalia 20:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting doing anything illegal. I'm suggesting if it can be linked in a legitimate way we should of course be able to link it. I wouldn't suggest violating copyright, of course. --Pete K 22:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sources

It seems that a lot of the article's content has been taken from an open "discussion list", a practice which wikipedia generally frowns on. Many of the assertions here which I've tried verifying through web searches appear on the discussion list, but I've been unable to find any published confirmation elsewhere.

For example, the passage, "Of the 350 published works by Steiner, most of them transcripts of lectures, a number describe spiritual aspects of religious traditions, including Judaism, Christianity and Buddism. In one lecture series, 'The Fifth Gospel" Steiner describes events, that according to him are based on clairvoyant observations, and not described in the original four Gospels. Other books, lectures or lecture series by Steiner are "Christianity as Mystical Fact and the Mysteries of Antiquity", "The Bible and Wisdom", "The Apocalypse of St. John", "The Easter Festival in relation to the Mysteries", "Esoteric Christianity and the mission of Christian Rosenkreutz", and "The four Seasons and the Archangels'. PLANS claims these works are the foundation of Anthroposophy. "

References to these texts appear in the discussion list by various individuals, but not that I could find in any statement supposedly coming from PLANS. Even in those mentions I found, the texts were not described as "the foundation of Anthroposophy", and they were also not included in the court documents I looked at as evidence PLANS intended to use in their lawsuit. So I'm going to ask for a reference on that statement, and I think in we need to be careful that statements made on that discussion list are not mistakenly assumed to be a valid reference for claims here. Professor marginalia 21:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Many of these sources are listed here - on the PLANS website in an article by a PLANS member. I can edit the list to this one if you like. --Pete K 23:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It's very iffy to take a member's statements as proof of the organization's position. We need verificiation that this is PLANS position if the article is identifying the list as such. Professor marginalia 00:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

PLANS isn't the United Nations. It's a small group of people. If you like, I'll ask the secretary of PLANS, Dan Dugan, to drop by here and confirm or deny that this is the case. Fair enough? --Pete K 02:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No. Find a published source that reflects the statement here accurately-that "would work". Professor marginalia 03:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you playing games? If this link confirms the statement I tagged, I couldn't find evidence in it anywhere. I also couldn't find this list of texts mentioned, and I couldn't find any statement in the article suggesting the opinions in it belonged to PLANS instead of the author of the article. It comes out. Professor marginalia 04:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

See WP:Verifiability: "Information on Misplaced Pages must be reliable and verifiable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources." This applies to the Schwartz lecture, too, which is not a published source. Hgilbert 10:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Not interested in your interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. Go look at the Steiner article - NOTHING has been verified - it's all interpretation by Steiner supporters. Look at the Waldorf Ed article - same thing. The author was on the BOARD OF DIRECTORS of PLANS. That pretty much makes them a spokesperson for PLANS. You guys are the ones playing games here. I'll keep putting it back in. And you guys know my tenacity. --Pete K 14:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I take this as admission that you have no other source except the article you supplied earlier--and that article does not mention the texts, period, let alone claim that PLANS considers them the "foundation of Anthroposophy". It doesn't mention PLANS. And I have not seen any documents to show the author, Lombard, was ever on the board of directors, including court documents where PLANS directors names were revealed in depositions and interrogatories. The whole pitch for this source is BS, start to finish. It comes out until someone can properly source the statement. Professor marginalia 15:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I asked you if Dan Dugan's own confirmation would be adequate to confirm this for you. You have not replied. Who, of the PLANS member list would you like to show up here to confirm that these works are the foundation of Anthroposophy, in their view? Just name a name. Yours is the course of bullshit, my friend - start to finish. PLANS has always been insistent on the fact that the foundation of Anthroposophy is esoteric Christianity and the publications by Steiner cited here are exactly the source for Steiner's esoteric Christianity - they are what puts esoteric Christianity in Anthroposophy. --Pete K 16:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did reply. Do you understand that wikipedia doesn't allow original research? That the operating rule is "verifiability" through legitimately published materials? You can't bring PLANS people here to write new arguments for this article. You have to find where PLANS people have published the information or statements or opinions. And the discussion list doesn't qualify at wikipedia (besides, I already mentioned that I couldn't find this list of "foundational" books claim supposedly coming from PLANS in the discussion list). The "esoteric Christianity" claim is often made by PLANS-that's sourced. But rest, with the book list etc, is an invention. By you? It doesn't appear anywhere, not even in the article you pretended here claims this, written by an author you pretended was a PLANS board member. Professor marginalia 17:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, so if PLANS makes the claim TODAY, I can insert this sentence TOMORROW. The source is PLANS. I'm thinking I don't get why you don't get this. So if a representative of PLANS comes here TODAY and makes this claim, it can serve a reference for TOMORROW. I mean, I get that you want to waste everyone's time here, but other than that, I don't get what you are saying. --Pete K 00:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you part of PLANS? Because this is weird. I ask for a fact check on a statement attributed to PLANS in the article, and first you offer bogus sources, then you propose to snap your fingers and voila, PLANS generates a statement TODAY that corresponds to what you want to say in this article?

Do you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking, "why is this so hard?" "Why am I sent running round-and-round with faked sources." I'm thinking, "Why does it feel like this article is being deliberately subverted and sources distorted?" So to answer your question, I honestly can't say. If there isn't a prohibition against this in wikipedia, you're breaking new ground. And ruining wikipedia for everyone, because wikipedia will turn into nothing but a "free rent" website duplicating facts created "on demand". Misplaced Pages will collapse from the abuse of the self-serving propagandizing of its editors. Professor marginalia 01:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not affiliated with PLANS in any way. I participate on their discussion list sometimes. Here's the point - this article is about PLANS. It is here because someone thought it might be a good idea to have an article about PLANS. If you will follow the first few edits at the beginning of the article, you will see that this place became an extension of WaldorfAnswers, a website where slander and the defamation of PLANS is obviously the intention of the writer. PLANS, at one point, tagged the article for deletion, but the tag was removed almost instantly. I don't know how long this article was in that horrible state that but when I arrived here, I think it was in July, I was shocked at what was written here. There was stuff about PLANS being a "hate group" - and stuff about PLANS saying Waldorf practiced witchcraft, none of it true, of course, but this was supported by the same WaldorfAnswers person pushing his agenda - all, supposedly, within the Misplaced Pages guidelines. All the time I was editing the article, I was dealing with Waldorf fanatics working together to revert it - endlessly. It took a lot of time and effort for me to clean up this article so that it reads fairly neutral (you may not think so - I really don't know what you think).

So now, I'm going to fight to keep it neutral. Just yesterday, I had to remove the WaldorfAnswers guy's comments and links to his website - he drifted in without loggin in to hopefully fly under the radar. I'm quite tired of this edit war - but I'm sticking with it because if I don't, the article will end up being like it was before. Apparently Waldorf supporters have nothing better to do than to defame anyone who disagrees with them - and try to get Waldorf-critical editors kicked off this site. PLANS is one of their primary targets - and I am one of their primary targets. I personally think the article should stay locked up forever. Destroying PLANS in the eyes of the public is a major objective of some fanatics in the Waldorf movement, and they simply can't resist the temptation to get out their spray cans whenever they think nobody is looking. --Pete K 02:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"If there isn't a prohibition against this in wikipedia, you're breaking new ground. And ruining wikipedia for everyone, because wikipedia will turn into nothing but a "free rent" website duplicating facts created "on demand". Misplaced Pages will collapse from the abuse of the self-serving propagandizing of its editors." Well, I'd suggest to you that getting Mark Twain or Plato to say something to satisfy an editor might be a bit more difficult. So no, Misplaced Pages wouldn't collapse. If the article is unlocked, I'll change the wording to say something like "PLANS claims esoteric Christianity is at the foundation of Anthroposophy." Would that satisfy you? How about if I add "Indeed, Steiner wrote the following books:" and then list the books. How's that? It's not self-serving to get a truthful point across. --Pete K 02:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

On

If the article is unlocked, I'll change the wording to say something like "PLANS claims esoteric Christianity is at the foundation of Anthroposophy." Would that satisfy you? How about if I add "Indeed, Steiner wrote the following books:" and then list the books. How's that? It's not self-serving to get a truthful point across. --Pete K 02:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The books wrtten by Steiner are Volumes 1-28, found listed at http://www.rudolfsteinerweb.com/Rudolf_Steiner_Works.php Of the 28 books (some collections of articles, for the translation of most of them, see here) he wrote, only one mentions Christianity, and discusses Christianity in relation to the mysteries of Antiquity: Christianity As Mystical Fact and the Mysteries of Antiquity. But it does not mention "Esoteric Christianity" once according to a search of the work on the term. Neither does a search on all written works by Steiner, found ar RSArchive on "Esoteric Christianity" point to any mentioning of the term in one of them. The only search result mentioning "esoteric Christianity" - once - is an article on the personality of RS by Edouard Schuré. Using the written works by Steiner to prove PLANS' claim does not stand out as as a credible way, as one would have expected the term to have been used at least ... once?) in one of them. The problem is far more complex, to be possible to summarize with the simlified formula PLANS formula tries to use. And "Indeed" stands out as argumentative. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, stating facts, not argumentative articles for standpoints. --Thebee 15:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"The word "indeed" stands out as argumentative?DianaW 18:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't done a search, so am not disputing Sune's claim. However, the terminology changes frequently, to reflect current sensibilities, and where Steiner used "occult" the term "esoteric" is now preferred. The terms have generally the same meaning but I think the publishers are now substituting "esoteric" because it is supposed to sound a little more high-brow, appeal to a more educated audience that would be embarrassed to be associated with "the occult" but thinks "esoteric" sounds more sophisticated. Perhaps what is available at the Steiner archive has not been "updated" in this fashion. I'm just speculating. I would suspect a search of the term "occult" would turn up a lot more than "esoteric." I do not know how in how many books or lectures Steiner used the phrase "esoteric Christianity." I know that anthroposophy is esoteric Christianity, whether or not Steiner himself used terms that, today, translate this way literally in English.DianaW 18:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's another source: - But again, I think it would be much easier to simply have a PLANS representative arrive here and confirm this for you - IF you will accept that is confirmation of what PLANS believes to be true. --Pete K 17:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Another false source. These texts are not listed anywhere in the article...not once, neither are they described as "foundation of anthroposophy". Professor marginalia 17:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be much easier to simply have a PLANS representative arrive here and confirm this for you - IF you will accept that is confirmation of what PLANS believes to be true.

Any info gathered from such a discussion would be inadmissible by Misplaced Pages policies. There's no way to verify that a Misplaced Pages editor is who he says he is. — goethean ॐ 17:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You are not getting this at all... This is the Steiner material that represents Esoteric Christianity. I don't have to say "PLANS claims this is the foundation of Steiner's work" - it IS the foundation of his work. This is becoming more and more absurd. --Pete K 19:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The dispute is whether "PLANS claims these works are the foundation of anthroposophy", speaking of those seven or eight texts listed. I don't dispute the "esoteric" sentence, I dispute the rest of it. You don't get to say the texts are the foundation of anthroposophy, you don't get to say "PLANS claims these works are the foundation", you don't get to say anything unless the claim you make can be attributed to a legitimate source, already published. You're an editor, not an author who can contribute your own arguments. Get it yet? Professor marginalia 20:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

PLANS doesn't need to "claim" this, as if it were somehow in dispute - anthroposophists claim it. I have difficulty copying links right now or I would promptly supply this but you may verify it for yourself by going to the Steinerbooks.com. Click on Waldorf Education on the left, follow the arrows to "Foundations of Waldorf Education." This is a multi-volume series with this explicit title. All the books say this on the front cover. The Anthroposophic Press is the main supplier of books for the teacher training centers. It is Waldorf, and anthroposphy, that claims these books are the "foundation of Waldorf education."DianaW 21:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Another bogus reference. If the bogus references continue, it starts to look like vandalism. Not one of the texts that are listed in the passage currently under dispute is listed on the "Foundation of Waldorf Education" link. This is the third bogus reference offered so far to back up the same brief listed texts which PLANS supposedly "claims" are "foundation of anthroposophy". The article isn't about Waldorf and Anthropsophy, it's about PLANS. The sentence "PLANS claims" is IN the article, it's not sourced, and I'm under attack for arguing it should therefore removed. Now you attack me because "PLANS doesn't need to 'claim' this?" Am I left to guess whether this is an actual agreement on your part that the statement doesn't belong there then? Professor marginalia 21:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This was not a bogus reference. I directed you to the Steinerbooks web site - the anthroposophical press. The main anthroposophical publisher worldwide, at least in English. This you call a bogus reference? It is *anthroposophists* who claim it not PLANS. PLANS doesn't have to "take a position" on basic reality. It is like asking for a "reference" that "PLANS believes" that Rudolf Steiner is the founder of anthroposophy. Um . . . he *is* the founder of anthroposophy. He described anthroposophy as esoteric Christianity. You're not arguing in good faith - you understand what the basis of anthroposophy is as well as we do. Presumably this is merely an amusing way to waste everyone's time?70.20.234.16 01:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this Kafka? The books named in the article aren't mentioned on your detail-described link! The link doesn't describe claims by "PLANS", so regardless of whatever it says there it can't legitimately be attributed to PLANS! Upside-down, left-wise and right-wise, and backward, the reference is a dud. It's bogus.

I don't know how else to explain this. If this is an anthroposophy position, say so and offer a source. If this is Steiner's position, say so and offer a source. If this is PLANS position, then don't validate it with a list of very different texts attributed to completely different parties! Professor marginalia 02:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay - I should apologize for not having read all this closely enough before I jumped in. You're correct that I didn't give a page showing "PLANS claims" anything about that particular list of books. I (mistakenly) took the discussion to be about foundations of Waldorf rather than foundations of *anthroposophy*. (The Anthroposophic Press publishes a specific series of Steiner titles as "Foundations of Waldorf Education.") Of course, this makes the discussion even more absurd. You're literally disputing that esoteric Christianity is the foundation of anthroposophy? Why would PLANS need to "claim" this? Does PLANS have to "claim" that the sun comes up in the morning? Rudolf Steiner claims anthroposophy is esoteric Christianity, silly. To dispute a choice of 6 or 7 books to show this is absurd. Practically *every* book Steiner wrote, at least after a certain date, is esoteric Christianity. If it would make you happy to take out the statement that "PLANS claims" it why not take it out? There's neither any need for PLANS to "claim" this nor anything sacred about the particular titles Pete picked out; he was giving EXAMPLES. Practically any random collection of a half dozen Steiner titles would show the same thing. Pick one up and read a few paragraphs. Does, um, a title such as Christianity as Mystical Fact make an impression on you in this regard? What are the "Big Four" again, as designated by anthroposophists (not PLANS) -Philosophy of Freedom, Christianity as Mystical Fact, Knowledge of Higher Worlds, and Outline of Esoteric Science - right? Other than POF, written before Steiner began his in-depth spiritual research, these are works on esoteric Christianity. Each describes the spiritual evolution of humanity with the "Mystery of Golgotha" or "Christ Event" as the "turning point" in human history. That's esoteric Christianity.70.20.133.220 13:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

So why not take out "PLANS claims these works are the foundation of Anthroposophy" and just say "These works are the foundation of Anthroposophy."70.20.133.220 13:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry once again that's me above, failing to log in.DianaW 14:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, this is getting us nowhere. I've restated the problem ad nauseum (including repeating it several times that I do not dispute PLANS believes A. is an "esoteric religon, I dispute the rest of the passage). The list of "Big Four" texts you've just given isn't the same as the one given in the article in the passage I've challenged. Is it? One title is close to a title given in the article, although in the article two titles seem to have been 'merged' into one.

We cannot say "these works are the foundation of anthroposophy" if most of the "works" listed aren't the right ones, and without a valid attribution beyond an editor say-so. Are you the same DianaW who is listed in the PLANS court documents as their board member? Professor marginalia 15:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not particularly interested in the list of books, and don't care which ones you include or don't include in this article. I already apologized for muddying the conversation by confusing the issue with "foundations of Waldorf education." I didn't read closely enough what you all were talking about. I think it's absurd to dispute whether anthroposophy is esoteric Christianity - of course it is. I don't really have time and doubt I will get around to a big dispute over this terminology, nor do I particularly care whether such a position is attributed to PLANS. I doubt PLANS cares either. I periodically show up at this discussion, on this article, to remove slander and make clear particularly to Sune Nordwall that such material will be rebutted very vigorously and in more than one public locale. No, I'm not a PLANS board member. I was, for a period of about a year, but am no longer on their board.DianaW 18:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think, by the way, that you will find anthroposophists disputing that those are the "Big Four." I am sure there would be consensus on listing these books as the foundation of anthroposophy. Sometimes there are arguments about whether POF really ought to count as anthroposophy, and I'm not clear on all those issues myself. Frankly, I don't think there's very wide disagreement that anthroposophy is esoteric Christianity. The only reason to publicly insist that it is some sort of generic, denominationally uncategorizable, don't-pin-a-label-on-us we're-spiritual-but-don't-call-us-a-religion is for the cynical purpose of pretending (in the US) that anthroposophy is "not a religion" so they can keep getting public funding for their schools.DianaW 18:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's one source that says one of the books listed is part of the "foundation" of Anthroposophy. I'll find more sources or I'll revise the statement to say "esoteric Christianity - as represented by" and then list the texts. I have to say, however, that you have made it difficult by making up your own rule, apparently, that people who are members of PLANS cannot represent PLANS. --Pete K 00:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Restatement of the passage re: PLANS concept of anthroposophy

The passage under dispute should be removed. It's wrong. It's not been verified despite many efforts to do so. The point to it is not very clear. It's a waste of time to keep trying to make it fit somehow.

The information here is taken straight from a PLANS court document and thus is probably the strongest published reference out there. The document was "Answer to Special Interrogatories", pages 3 and 4, prepared January 15, 2004, and signed by their attorney "under penalty of perjury". I propose the passage in the article regarding which texts are "foundations of anthroposophy" be completely removed, and the argument rewritten as follows:

"PLANS claims Anthroposophy has at its basis esoteric Christianity. In court documents, PLANS argued that Rudolf Steiner considered himself a Christian and that he considered Anthroposophy to be a Christian form of theosophy and Rosicrucianism. PLANS argued that Steiner himself described Anthroposophy as a training to access skills of psychic awareness latent in each human being, and argued that the discipline, 'spiritual science', is not a true science nor philosophy, but a theology. PLANS acknowledged that Steiner's supporters frequently concede the spiritual foundations of Anthroposophy and Waldorf education, but claimed they make a false distinction between 'spiritual' and 'religious'. It considered Anthroposophy as part of a New Age religious movement, characterized by its seekers' rejection of orthodoxy and creedal forms of religious expression in favor of a more eclectic and individualized path of spiritual-psychological transformation, a process which PLANS claimed to be generally acknowledged as 'religious experience'.

"PLANS wanted the court to agree that Waldorf methods schools lead students through New Age rituals and interpret them as 'religious' practices. It also wanted the court to agree that in the schools, Anthroposophy permeates every subject, and that the underlying theory of the education is based on theology, not philosophy. In order to do this, PLANS first needed to convince the court that Anthroposophy was a religion. This attempt was unsuccessful, and PLANS seeks to reverse the decision in appeals court."

The article itself has become repetitious in places and leaves a lot of gaps in others. I think that all the various edits have left this section very confused, and the points aren't very clear. Once we get the statements in it more accurate, then the section needs to be restructured so it makes more sense when you read it. Professor marginalia 17:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This part reads all right to me: "PLANS wanted the court to agree that Waldorf methods schools lead students through these eclectic New Agey rituals and interpret them as 'religious' practices. It also wanted the court to agree that Anthroposophy is inherent throughout the student's classwork, and that the underlying theory of the education was based on theology, not philosophy. In order to do this, PLANS first needed to convince the court that Anthroposophy was a religion (as the article points out, it wasn't successful)." - as long as it's clarified that the case is still being appealed. I think what you wrote there is a fair summary, maybe not perfect, but not too far off. I don't know if anthroposophy is "inherent throughout the student's classwork," but it's certain that many themes in the curriculum and many classroom activities are drawn from anthroposophy, and many of the schoolwide festivals are enactments of anthroposophic legends and rituals.DianaW 18:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. To keep the discussion from getting too big, I will edit the above rather than repeat it with edits. Editors can compare with diff if they wish. I'll replace "inherent" with "permeate". It's the verbiage used in the reference.Professor marginalia 19:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"Resolving" disputes

The article is locked to prevent changes without first reaching a consensus. My first edit here was made only after getting agreement with an editor who arbitrarily reverted it, saying "it's a waste of time to argue". My second edit here was to tag a statement for its "source". The same editor offers a source that in no way whatsoever even addresses the disputed statement, not even remotely! A challenged statement should not be allowed at wikipedia without a legitimate source, thus I removed the statement, and the same editor gives an "I don't care about policy" rationale for putting it back, along with a promise to "keep putting it back in". There is no chance of consensus if editors are allowed to be fickle and arbitrarily reneg after agreeing, if they're allowed to provide illegitimate sources, and if they don't give a hoot about wikipedia policy. Professor marginalia 16:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Once it became clear to me that you are a meat-puppet, working with others here to push an agenda, I backed off my agreement. You, working as a team with others, remove a portion of an article, then another person sweeps in and removes another section, and before long, someone else sweeps in and deletes the entire section. This is organized disruption of the content of this article. That's not allowed here at Misplaced Pages. Your claim that illegitimate sources are provided falls on deaf ears when I have asked you repeatedly if the DIRECT source, the representatives of PLANS themselves could satisfy you of PLANS' position. You refuse to answer. You are just here to disrupt the article, and you brought your other meat puppets here with you to help. There is an unquestionable pattern forming here in this and other articles, of Anthroposophists and Waldorf supporters working in teams to prevent legitimate viewpoints from being presented. The article was very stable for a good period of time and read as an encyclopedia article should read - before your team showed up. Frankly, I think the entire article should be marked for deletion - but until that happens, these edit wars will continue as long as organized efforts by Waldorf people seek to discredit the work of PLANS and defame the participants of this lawsuit. Need I remind you of the "hate group" wars that one of your editors continued to rage here? This is childish and immoral on your part - please give it up. --Pete K 17:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Not knowing what a "meat puppet" is, I looked it up on the urban dictionary. Two of the definitions are obscene, one definition given is "brainless" and the fourth given is "no mind of one's own". I don't see how it's possible to reach consensus when a single editor, who reacts irrationally to perfectly legitimate and rational challenges, promises continue paranoid "edit wars" and wastes editors time by providing bogus references as sources to backup statements which are questioned. Professor marginalia 18:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how it is possible to reach consensus either. As long as you consider Misplaced Pages your playground for pushing a dishonest POV, there will be no agreement here. That you have the support of other like-minded fundamentalists is of no consequence. The information here will be an honest representation of the facts - not a smear campaign. There has been a lot of legitimate work done on this article to clean it up from it's previous defamatory POV - and you and your friends aren't going to revert it so easily. Again, I ask which representative of PLANS would you like to show up here to confirm what I have claimed is their position? I think that is a perfectly rational question. If you think presenting a challenge and not accepting the addressing that challenge is appropriate, maybe you should consider how rational your approach is. --Pete K 19:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

A meatpuppet is when a Misplaced Pages editor has someone join Misplaced Pages or the sole purpose of buttressing the first person's arguments. I agree with Professor Marginalia that User:Pete_K's tactics are disruptive and detract from the project. — goethean ॐ 18:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I was the first editor to raise the issues, and so far the only support I've received is agreement that all sources have to conform to wikipedia's guidelines. None of my edits were in any way, shape, or form "defamatory" to PLANS, they're not even negative, so Pete_K's attack on me is 100% phoney. Professor marginalia 20:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You can suggest this - but a quick look at the history of what happened disputes this. You all arrived at the same time - although I agree, somebody had to be first - after more than a week of no changes here. Then TheBee popped in without signing his name and predictably threw in his link to his defamatory website, then you removed a huge section of the article, others removed other huge sections and there it was - a buzzard-fest. It was dishonest and organized. Pretending that you're above this is what's 100% phoney. --Pete K 20:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I recommend other editors do "take a quick look at the history" before dealing with you. It explains a lot. I see that call yourself a "reformist" who founded "Waldorf School of the Oaks." Never heard of it. Neither has google. Or AWSNA. Is causing "dumbest ever" edit wars part of the "reformist" work you do? Professor marginalia 22:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep. The Waldorf school of the Oaks only lasted about four years and closed down more than 10 years ago. It was a Waldorf kindergarten and first grade. One of our teachers was Gail Blair (you may have heard of her). Are you suggesting I'm lying about this? My work as a reformist revolves around getting Waldorf to be honest and to stop working AGAINST and start working WITH people. The dishonesty of some people in Waldorf education is hurting the entire Waldorf movement. People look at Waldorf with suspicion. Eugene Schwartz saw this and I see it too - as do many Anthroposophists. This dishonesty has to stop. It wouldn't hurt if we started here. --Pete K 01:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Um... what "project" would that be? This is an article about PLANS, not a project to defame an organization you despise. Simply stating the facts is all that is necessary here. --Pete K 19:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the project of Misplaced Pages. — goethean ॐ 19:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Unprotecting the page

It seems like we've reached agreement on changes to the "Master Teacher" section and the "foundation of anthroposophy" passage (see sections 14.1 and 15.1 above). What's next? Can the page be "unprotected" so the edits can be made? Professor marginalia 20:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was only speaking for myself - so I think we need others to weigh in on this - and on whether we have indeed reached an agreement on the "Master Teacher" section. --Pete K 22:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fine, and thank you for doing it, professor marginalia.DianaW 02:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I have just copy edited the section on Schwartz a bit, and also changed the part about how Waldorf "means to make everything sacramental." That was a poor construction, so I went to Schwartz's speech to check for a better quote. I don't find anything about making everything sacramental in the speech. Seems better to quote directly so I added the part about giving children "religious experiences" and having them "learn about reverence."DianaW 20:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I made a few more (to me) fairly minor edits, and will check back in a day or two to see if anyone laid an egg when they saw it.DianaW 20:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't better to quote directly because the transcript isn't reliable, and it's not legitimately published. This has been discussed. The point Schwartz was making has also been heavily "distorted" because in the middle of this heavily redacted quotation, Schwartz talks about what goes on in the public Waldorf methods program. That part has been left out here--and in it Schwartz says that the public Waldorf methods program students do not get the experience his daughter is getting--that those children do not get the religious experience. That's why Schwartz objects to them. PLANS argued the exact opposite of this in the court room, so it's kind of a curious bit to leave out here. No? So that lengthy quoted section needs to come out. The phrase "religious experience" is ascribed to Schwartz in the published Edweek article, however he also does indeed say there, "make everything sacramental"--it's a direct quote from Schwartz. "Reverence" does not appear there, so I'd say if the term is used, the "quotes" need to come off.Professor marginalia 21:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

PeteK, your churlish and pointless interferences with legitimate edits in these articles needs to stop. It's as if the intention behind it is to deliberately make the article *more* academically sloppy, unreliable and amateurish rather than *less*. The need for the edit was described here last week, with no dissention expressed from you at all. I make the edit, and you revert. Editors have tried everything with you. In this case, I noted the need for the edit on the talk page, as recommended. Nothing. Others as well have tried reasoning, discussing, mediating, and collaborating via "wikipedia project", and you've rejected all of it. You've even reverted edits that you yourself *agreed* to before they were made. Either you decide you're going to start playing ball, or get off the damn court.

Schwartz did not use the term *reverence* in this article. He did use the phrase *make everything sacramental", which I written originally, in quotation marks, but which for some reason DianaW didn't like, preferring *reverence*. Fine, to me it's a minor distinction so long as the quotation marks aren't surrounding words different from those Schwartz actually said there. Since Schwartz didn't say the word *reverence* there, don't mislead readers here with the quotation mark. If you want to quote him, use the "make everything sacramental" which is what I had there before DianaW changed it. If you want *reverence*, take off the quotation marks. Professor marginalia 16:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I just took it out completely. It reads better anyway. Pete K 17:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You da man now <sarcasm>. Add this episode to your growing list of candidates for "stupidest edit war ever". Professor marginalia 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

History section

I've added a good bit of detail to the history section. It's all sourced, and I've indicated those sources in those areas I understand or suspect most likely to be questioned. I don't think the section needs a reference on every single statement--that would compromise the readability, for one thing. So I haven't listed them all in laborious detail. However, I can provide these further sources if necessary on those facts or statements that others might have questions about.

There has been a lot of contention relating to this article among editors here. PLANS is an activist organization which has created a lot of controversy in some communities where it's challenged the Waldorf methods schools, and I think this provides a lot of the background to some of the controversy. PLANS brought together both secular/atheist activists and evangelical Christian activists. That odd alliance called for more background. PLANS has also been criticized by many educators, parents and others--for one thing, over some of their activist tactics. So the article needed some objective background related to that--to enable readers to understand where some of those disputes might have first come from. Professor marginalia 21:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem with adding the history that you have added from the SacBee source articles is that much information supporting PLANS is also in those articles. If you add the bad stuff, I'll have to add in the good stuff and then we have what happened last time - the entire article quoted. Please re-think this and if you have to include this, just quote directly from the articles themselves. Pete K 00:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is not a board game, and the facts and sources in it aren't arbitrary artifacts to be traded between editors like baseball cards. The job of editors here is to use documents exactly such as these. There is "no trouble". It is also not the job of the editor to cut and paste quotes together rather than write the article. I've been completely fair in my copy: I cited the SacBee once in that entire section, and you object to it? All of the items I listed in that statement were in the SacBee's report. I believe every news account I've seen of the PLANS protest against the Oak Ridge school alluded to the furor over these kinds of allegations. That protest developed into the lawsuit, and was probably at least partly a factor influencing a conservative religious organization to financially back the suit. It's absurd to suggest this should be omitted from an article about PLANS, and there is nothing wrong with the source. It's as good as any you'll find. Professor marginalia 01:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear "Professor Marginalia" (anonymity is so nice, isn't it? - yet I have a hunch we are acquainted!) I am at least a week behind in following what is going on with this article, but if you don't mind my jumping in right here, you seem to be implying you've seen many, or at least a number of, news reports on the "PLANS protests" and on the controversy that supposedly PLANS has created in, you imply, a great many communities. (This is POV, of course; clearly, from another POV it is *Waldorf* that has created controversy in some communities. It is really very difficult to stir up communities against a school when parents are *happy* with the school.) What are all these other news sources you are referring to, that describe all these controversies PLANS has created, and what are your sources for all the criticism PLANS has so widely received?DianaW 22:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

I've also added to the criticism section. Again, it's all sourced. And again, I think this helps readers to understand the controversy better. None of the new material I've added comes from Anthroposophical or Waldorf education related printed sources, so it presents points of view gathered from numerous communities and individuals. I believe all of it has been drawn from published newspapers or court documents. The paragraph there originally has been reworded a bit, and I've tried to rearrange the issues to be somewhat chronological. Professor marginalia 22:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Bad sources

The "Michaelmas" edit and revert points to a persistent problem I see happening in this article. Claims made there were initially marked with a 'citation tag'. And a Sharon Lombard article was offered (the same one I remember offered two or three other times in response to 'cit. tags'). And that article does not reflect in any way the statements made in this article. (Again, I remember this was the case the other two or three times this way.)

Why are so many bogus citations continually provided here that do not in any way verify the particular facts or claims given in the statements associated with them? Please STOP IT! This is totally unacceptable. And in this case, after providing the bogus cit., some editor seems to have add his or her own embellishments, further confusing the situation (in this case, the "for example, Michaelmas to Harvest Fair," and the 'key anthroposophical festival' etc. The Lombard article doesn't validate the statement. Lombard does not mention Michaelmas. Lombard does not discuss public Waldorf methods practices at all. And besides: the article doesn't have anything to do with PLANS. PLANS is not mentioned. The author does not put forth any claim to be speaking for PLANS. )

The footnote to the 'non-source' needs to come out, and I will replace it with the original cit. tag. The statements still need a legit citation.

And just underneath it, another bogus citation. Two false citations in a single paragraph. Rudolf Steiner obviously didn't confirm that there are prayers and Madonnas in the public Waldorf methods schools. Get real. I'm going to cit. tag that as well. Professor marginalia 22:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you have missed the point here. Verses are prayers - according to Steiner and the citation confirms this. Verses are STILL said in public Waldorf schools. I think by your reasoning, nothing of Steiner could exist in the public Waldorf schools - i.e. YOU are deciding this case. I'd like you to consider returning the reference or I'll do it myself. Thanks. Pete K 00:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

PeteK, no you're missing the point here. "Little Bo Peep" is not a prayer, though it is a verse. The fact check need there is for some source which describes the verse of the public school as really a prayer. A valid, published source, btw. Not Steiner--nowhere in Steiner will you find evidence of what goes on in the public schools. Please stop brushing off valid issues like this. Find a proper source, or take out the statement. Professor marginalia 01:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should provide a source that says "Little Bo Peep" is what they're saying in Charter schools. The very SacBee article you re-inserted described the morning verses as prayers as I recall. I'll have another look. Pete K 01:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, here is one of the SacBee references currently in the article that says the verses are prayers. Satisfied?

Pete K 01:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Now you're catching on. That's what checks require, a valid source that actually verifies the statements attributed to it! It's not the Sacramento Bee, btw, but Sacramento News and Review--a different publication completely. Replace the citation there now with this one, and everything is kosher.

Now the other source you 'restored' needs a similar solution: a valid source that actually verifies the statements attributed to it. Not Lombard. The Lombard article does not, not that I can see. So the only options here are A) quote the passage where you believe Lombard validates the statement (I can't find it, maybe you can?) B) replace the Lombard cit. with a proper one or C) eliminate the statement. Professor marginalia 02:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I'm catching on. You won't mind digging up a few published sources tomorrow will you? I think there are a few things in the article that need verification. Pete K 06:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to "dig up" any sources for the text I've uploaded. I sourced it first, before writing it. As editors properly should do. So drop the snarky tone, if you don't mind.

You won't mind identifying a source to replace the Lombard article, will you? The statement has been questioned by at least two editors now, and the Lombard article does not suffice without some kind of explanation. Professor marginalia 06:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

New fact tags

Editor PeteK has added three new tags to the short intro paragraph to this article. Starting with the first: a call for a fact reference to the two words "it campaigns" in describing the organization. Those two words have been in this article for 3 months or more, and only after I've included a somewhat comprehensive listing of the activities of this group, PeteK is challenging the phrase, "it campaigns". This list of activities includes delivering formal presentations, letter writing campaigns, making statements to news reporters, picketing of schools, leafletting, building coalitions with other organizations to advance their cause, issuing press releases, and targeting schools with lawsuits. Why do we need another source here? Seriously.

The second tag is attached to "The organization claims that Waldorf education has an occult spiritual basis". This claim appears in item #1 on the PLANS website page titled "concerns". The third cit tag in this paragraph also appears on that page in item #2. Let's not distract the reader by putting 5 footnotes in the very first 3 sentence paragraph, ok? And can't we expect editors to please supply a little of their "own" effort in this process? It takes practically none whatsoever in this case. Professor marginalia 07:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't you believe you need to support your statements? If you want to say PLANS "campaigns" - you need to find a source that says that. You really, in fact, should be supplying sources for everything that is said here. The notion that something has been in the article for three months - or three years for that matter, doesn't exclude it from a challenge of citation. I'm only getting started here I'm afraid. If you can't support the material, it has to come out. If I have to do it for my claims, you have to do it for yours. Let's not play games here - nobody gets a free ride in this article because it is hotly contested. Pete K 15:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't write the statement. Here's a reference, "These sites are evidence that the informational campaign of PLANS has had some success." It comes from the PLANS website. Happy? And you're not playing games? I confess, I have my doubts about that. Professor marginalia 16:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"Informational campaign" is not the same as "campaigning" - so no, that doesn't make me happy. Please show something that says PLANS is "campaignign" for anything - or change the claim. I don't have time for games - sorry. If we're going to challenge each other for every claim, then it is what it is. If it isn't a game for you, it isn't a game for me. My interest is challenging claims that aren't true or are implying something that isn't true. Yours seems to be challenging claims that you know are true in order to make busy work for me. Sune (TheBee) insists on trying to imply some reward was involved for Lisa E's activism. That's a lie - and I'll challenge it as well, despite that he has made a technically true statement. Pete K 17:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous. The word is fine. I didn't write it. I confirmed PLANS uses the term itself. I believe the editor who wrote it here consciously and deliberately adopted language from that website to satisfy earlier arguments on the language in the paragraph. This is a stupid, picauyne issue.

And each of fact checks I've requested have each pointed directly to statements in which bogus articles were offered to satisfy others' fact disputes. You've continually offered bogus references--if you don't want the "extra work", don't trivialize the articles here wikipedia by contributing text sources that do not support the facts given in the article. And if you're acknowledging that the Ercolano issue is technically true, I will remove the fact tag there. I was under the mistaken impression that you were challenging it, so I added the fact tag myself. I'll try to be more careful. Professor marginalia 18:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Steiner says verses are prayers. That's not a "bogus" reference. It is a true and accurate reference that describes the complexity of the issue - that terminology is being used (as approved by Steiner) to confuse parents about the nature of the verses themselves - and I will add back the reference directly to Steiner in addition to the other reference that prayers are being said in charter schools. I will also add to the Ercolano statement to clarify that this had nothing to do with anything (not that I should have to). Again, that PLANS has campaigned for anything hasn't been shown. There was a very sensible suggestion a while back that someone representing PLANS views should provide the description for their organization. I think that makes sense since some editors here want to "charge" the opening paragraph with their POV. PLANS is an organization that represents a challenge to the separation of church and state issue claiming Waldorf charter schools have religious underpinnings. That's what it is. It's not a campaign, it doesn't (as previously was claimed) "lobby" for anything - it is an organization involved in a lawsuit. Pete K 18:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The claim made wasn't over whether verses are prayers in private Waldorf schools. Steiner only spoke about private schools. The claim made was that the public schools were changing a word here and there in prayers to meet constitutional requirements. With that source, you are attempting to prove another claim all together than the one in the statement.

I recall seeing other editors challenge your reference over this verses/prayers issue on the Waldorf education article. I suggest that you quote the text from the source before trying to say something about what Steiner had to say about prayers vs verses, because the suggestion made on the other board was that Steiner actually said the opposite in that book. And there has been a history here of offering sources that don't actually contain the claims attributed to them by some of the editors here.

Were you aware that the editor who first used the term "campaign" here has done much to defend PLANS' in at least two Waldorf related articles? I think that he's had very contentious arguments against the so-called Waldorf "supporters".Professor marginalia 19:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe I'm reading this. What difference does it make who edited the article to use that word? We're not playing a team sport here. We are trying (at least I am) to accurately represent the truth. I didn't look at who used the term first, I only noticed that it isn't accurate. I think I am free to make claims and support them here, BTW, if they relate to the issues - which the prayer claim does. So again, I don't understand what you are getting at. Regarding the accuracy of the book I referenced, Faculty Meetings with Rudlof Steiner - if you are suggesting that what I claim is the opposite of what is in the book - why don't you read it for yourself on-line. It's available right here. AND, it has been on every teacher training book list I have ever seen. Pete K 19:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You: "I think that makes sense since some editors here want to "charge" the opening paragraph with their POV."

Me: "Were you aware that the editor who first used the term "campaign" here has done much to defend PLANS' in at least two Waldorf related articles? "

You: "What difference does it make who edited the article to use that word? "

Me: You thought it "made a difference", at least that's the factor you pointed to as you argued it should be changed.

I've discovered that a lot of what you share here doesn't check out. For the latest example, your claim " has been on every teacher training book list I have ever seen." In the teacher training book list you linked in this article, this particular book does not appear there. So rather than simply assuring us that the book says what you say it does, why don't you do a little work and quote the passage here yourself, and make it easier for the editors of the article to assess these disputes and fact tags on these talk pages. Professor marginalia 04:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I think this is what we were talking about... from Faculty Meetings with Rudlolf Steiner - p60/61.

A teacher: "Wouldn't it be good if we had the children do a morning prayer?"

Dr. Steiner: "That is something we could do. I have already looked into it, and will have something to say about it tomorrow. We also need to speak about a prayer. I ask only one thing of you. You see, in such things everything depends upon the external appearances. Never call a verse a prayer, call it an opening verse before school. Avoid allowing anyone to hear you, as a faculty member, using the word "prayer." In doing that, you will have overcome a good part of the prejudice that this is an anthroposophical thing. Most of our sins we bring about through words."

And, in the future, I'll try to take my time when bringing references here - lest you confuse hurrying with inability to produce references. Pete K 00:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, do you mean you will try to take your time making 'edits' until you have the sources ready? So I won't confuse 'a delay' with 'inability' to produce references?

In comparing the statement above to the statement made in this article, some clarification may be in order also. The above indicates Steiner said, "Never call a verse a prayer, call it an opening verse before school." And this is the statement in the article it supposedly verified, " both public and private Waldorf schools children say morning verses addressing God that some (including Steiner) describe as prayers." Obviously, the two statements are opposite to one another, and besides-the wp article also says God was not in the public school verses. The reference contradicts the statement, the statement contradicts other statements in the article; it's a bit of a mishmash I think. Professor marginalia 21:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to confuse anything you like. Pete K 05:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

" both public and private Waldorf schools children say morning verses addressing God" This is confirmed in the article. "that some (including Steiner) describe as prayers." This is confirmed by Steiner himself. It doesn't seem like a "mishmash" to me - it seems like a statement that is well referenced. Steiner acknowledged - even promoted the notion that the children should say prayers - but disguised the language to call them "verses". Those "verses" are being recited in public Waldorf schools today. No we should also point out here that Steiner *encouraged* teachers to disguise the nature of what they were having the children recite - even to the parents of the children - in order to avoid criticism. That's well documented in the quote you asked me to provide. Steiner's deception is also evident in how he asked teachers to deal with the question of children who he believed were "possessed" by demonic spirits. Here's a quote from the same source pp36-37:

"The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring more and more frequently where children are born and human forms exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the human race...They are very different from human beings where spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore, there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in human form.

"But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist."But don"t let us publicise these things."

So it becomes clear that Steiner was at the bottom of some very deceptive practices back in the early Waldorf days, and these, of course, set a precident for the deceptive practices of Waldorf schools today - both private and public. That's why when parents are picketing outside a public Waldorf school claiming to be surprised at the strange practices that are taking place, the responsibility for that deception should be laid at Steiner's feet. Pete K 05:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

My response:

• Please do not interrupt my statements to leave comments within. Add your own comments at the bottom.
• The purpose of the talk page is to communicate with other editors. I have no idea what this means, "And, in the future, I'll try to take my time when bringing references here - lest you confuse hurrying with inability to produce references." Could you clarify what you mean, please?
• Your elaborations make it clear this is really your thesis. You've taken many opportunities to assure everyone you have no connection to PLANS. But when you harken back to 1920 statements from the Austrian, Steiner, to assemble together Exhibit A/Exhibit B testimony or other smoking weapons of some organized conspiracy to violate the post 1960 ban on public school prayer in the US, you're conducting "original research" of your very own about the schools or Steiner. Your "original research" cannot be attributed to PLANS in this article. We need to remember the reference sources needed here are about what PLANS says, not sources of what Steiner said.Professor marginalia 18:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I added to the article a sourced statement about a PLANS's claim, one that makes a point similar to the one I think you were heading for. Professor marginalia 19:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I have added a fact tag to the statement, "According to PLANS, public Waldorf teachers are required in most cases to take Waldorf teacher training and to read works almost exclusively by Rudolf Steiner". The original reference there was to a Teacher's training reading list, with comments added by Dan Dugan. However, after reading so many of the PLANS court documents, its clear to me this reading list was not used in the public Waldorf methods teachers training program. With the court record contradicting the claim made in this article, I think a better reference needs to be found--one that doesn't involve guesswork about whether this is PLANS's claim about both private and public schools. Professor marginalia 19:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, I find this amazing. Dan Dugan is a representative of PLANS - he is the secretary of PLANS. The reading list with HIS comments represents PLANS' *claim*. This claim has nothing to do with whether this is confirmed in the court documents or not. If PLANS makes this claim, and the souce verifies this, why in the world do you need a different source? Pete K 19:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The reading list is dated 93-94. The note from Dugan asserts the list was given to teacher trainees in 1993 and 1994, before PLANS was even formed, and before there was a public Waldorf methods training program. What needs to be confirmed is if PLANS said this about the public teachers requirements, not the private teachers. As PLANS very clearly knew from the court documents, the public teachers program was different and separate from the program for the private, independent school teachers. What is amazing is the way you react to every legitimate question raised here. You are using a source document that predates both the organization you claim wrote it, and predates the public teachers curriculum it supposedly represents, before there even was one. Professor marginalia 20:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't matter if the reading list pre-dates PLANS - PLANS makes the claim based on the list. All that is being stated here is that PLANS made the claim. Pete K 22:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that it says this at all in the reference; you're simply implying more there than it says. Since it's amply clear from the court record that PLANS knows very well that reading list was not used in the public Waldorf teachers training and those materials are not required of them, it looks like we have two choices here. You can either reread the claim made on that link and determine for yourself that you're inferring more from it than it really says there, i.e. that this private school training curriculum is also required of the public teacher trainees, or you can pretend to yourself that's what it means nevertheless. If that's the conclusion you draw from the source, I will be forced to add to this section of the article facts from the court records showing PLANS knows this claim isn't true, and in fact made completely different arguments in court against the public teacher training, arguments which acknowledged the public training program to be considerably different. I'd lean toward giving PLANS the benefit of the doubt and conclude simply that your inference from that particular source is wrong, as opposed to concluding PLANS is knowingly misrepresenting the Waldorf methods teacher training requirements of public charter school teachers to the general public. And simply eliminate that claim that public school teachers are required to study those materials exclusively. Professor marginalia 00:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The statement contained in the reference says

"This text is evidence for my allegation that Waldorf "teacher training" is actually training for a religious missionary ministry rather than for teaching.

Note how some of the Anthroposophical content is disguised behind conventional course titles, e.g. Rudolf Steiner's biography as "History 102."

-Dan Dugan"

I think if Mr. Dugan wanted to retract that statement, he would be able to do so. I'll be glad to ask him for you. Pete K 01:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

We've plowed that ground already. If you're going to be ringing up PLANS headquarters to summon from them newly minted documentary support for statements you'd like to make here, that's something serious enough that it should be brought to admins attention.

As discussed several times already, that list predates the public teacher training programs. The public teacher training programs do not have that requirement, and nevertheless, those graduates of the programs are employed in schools that PLANS has sued. I will edit the article reflect the ample rebutting evidence found throughout the lawsuit's court records. Professor marginalia 02:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Any biodynamic gardener will tell you - you have to plow the ground regularly. Besides being an author, I'm an engineer. I work with ANSI standards - some pre-date the companies I work for. The validity of those standards or the appropriateness of their use doesn't change with the age of the company (or industry - for that matter) that they apply to. The reading list pre-dates Waldorf charter schools, sure, but it doesn't mean the same reading list isn't used year after year. If you want to present a different list - you should. It doesn't invalidate this particular reading list, however. If the statement is about a "claim" and the person making that claim stands behind that claim, you have absolutely NO business taking that claim out.

I plan to meet with Eugene Schwartz in the next couple of weeks. I may certainly ask him about the material that is produced here as I am interested in accuracy, not a POV. If he shines any light on that information, it may indeed influence how I feel the information should be presented here. You should consider not babysitting your POV, and actually getting at what is being claimed by the actual people who have made the claims. These people are still alive - and the article is writing and re-writing itself day by day. The court case is still active and in appeals. The information in this article is going to change regularly. Pete K 14:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Geez, where do I start? I'm not an engineer, but even I know that both your attempt to use ANSI as an some kind of indication about Waldorf teacher requirments, and your depiction of the the ANSI standards as unchanging year after year is absolutely ridiculous. Even I know there is a steady stream of printed revisions to those standards that pour out of the institute month after month.

As to your planned "consultation" with Eugene Schwartz, keep in mind that any ideas that come to you from that proposed meeting would clearly be "original research" and thus could not be used in this article. You have difficulty with this rule, but it's nonnegotiable at wikipedia. Published sources are allowed, direct conversations are not. Professor marginalia 16:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This is incredible. Now you claim to know about ANSI standards - better than I know about them even though I work with them EVERY DAY? The ANSI standard I work with in engineering is ANSI Y14.5M - 1982. There have been no revisions since 1982... get it? The ANSI standard I work with in architecture for measuring square footage is ANSI Z765-1996. There have been no revisions since 1996. I think your challenge here is based on a rather naive understanding of ANSI standards - but this, of course, is not the subject.

Regarding my conversations with Eugene Schwartz, if they transpire, I didn't say I would quote him now did I? I said the conversations would help me understand his position more accurately and would perhaps affect what I DO quote and what I DO attribute to his point of view. I have no trouble understanding what Original Research is. Again, the people discussed in this article are ALIVE and are able to speak for themselves so that we can better understand what they have to say.

Regarding Dan Dugan's claim - here is his response (today) to the comments you have made:

PM:>I have added a fact tag to the statement, "According to PLANS, public >Waldorf teachers are required in most cases to take Waldorf teacher >training and to read works almost exclusively by Rudolf Steiner". The >original reference there was to a Teacher's training reading list, >with comments added by Dan Dugan. However, after reading so many of >the PLANS court documents, its clear to me this reading list was not >used in the public Waldorf methods teachers training program.

DD: That's irrelevant. The summer classes for public Waldorf teachers are a brief introduction. Public (charter and magnet) Waldorf schools, like any Waldorf schools, prefer to hire fully-trained teachers. That could be documented with reference to want-ads for teachers, if necessary.

PM:>With the >court record contradicting the claim made in this article, I think a >better reference needs to be found--one that doesn't involve guesswork >about whether this is PLANS's claim about both private and public >schools.

PM:> The reading list is dated 93-94. The note from Dugan asserts >the list was given to teacher trainees in 1993 and 1994, before PLANS >was even formed, and before there was a public Waldorf methods >training program. What needs to be confirmed is if PLANS said this >about the public teachers requirements, not the private teachers.

DD: Irrelevant--both take the same training at the same colleges.

PM:>As >PLANS very clearly knew from the court documents, the public teachers >program was different and separate from the program for the private, >independent school teachers. What is amazing is the way you react to >every legitimate question raised here. You are using a source document >that predates both the organization you claim wrote it, and predates >the public teachers curriculum it supposedly represents, before there >even was one. > PK:> No, it doesn't matter if the reading list pre-dates PLANS >- PLANS makes the claim based on the list. All that is being stated >here is that PLANS made the claim. > PM:> I disagree that it says this at all in the reference; >you're simply implying more there than it says. Since it's amply clear >from the court record that PLANS knows very well that reading list was >not used in the public Waldorf teachers training and those materials >are not required of them,

DD: That assertion is false. There is no evidence to indicate that teacher training curricula have changed substantially since those were published. Both private and public schools hire trained Waldorf teachers.

So there you have it. The claim is, indeed, what Dan Dugan claimed and continues to claim. It is absolutely relevant and the teacher training coursework of 1993 is as relevant to Dan Dugan and for similar reasons as ANSI standard Y14.5M (1982) is to me and the rest of the engineering world. Pete K 20:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. The thousands of google hits pointing to various new or proposed ANSI revisions and updates and accomodations to, say, the new EU standards and so forth threw me for a minute. ANSI hasn't changed a thing since 1982, it just tries to make itself look busy by generating the paperwork.

The footnote has been left in regardless of your feedback. It's an interesting report you say comes straight from PLANS itself, but such feedback cannot influence editorial decisions made here. If this message comes from Dugan himself, he must be unfamiliar with the evidence given in deposition testimony in this case. If public Waldorf methods teachers ever took the private Waldorf training, they cannot be discriminated against in hiring for that. The question I raised here is whether or not PLANS claimed this was "required" of the public school teachers, and whether they were taught through Steiner texts almost "exclusively"--those are claims attributed to PLANS here in this article. And those claims weren't borne out in the case of the two school districts PLANS sued. In the one school, federal moneys were dedicated to develop a special public teachers training program. Documents were presented showing how courses offered were carefully delineated between those in the private Waldorf training which would not be covered or paid for in the public teachers training course. In fact, when one witness (largely responsible for developing the training program) explained that the public teacher training curriculum was different than the private curriculum, PLANS own attorney said, "I think we can all concede to that opinion." Later, this attorney asked the witness about this particular booklist. The only book used in the public training program which appears on the '93-'94 booklist is Steiner's "Philosophy of Freedom". (Actually, that's an important fact to note in the article itself. I'll do so.) So when Dugan told you there is "no evidence" that the public training is much changed from that '93-94 booklist, he's demonstrating ignorance of the evidence actually presented in the PLANS court case. I've read these documents. Perhaps he hasn't. Professor marginalia 22:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

More references provided:

1. Ercolano was not VP of PLANS in Oct 2000, but was VP of PLANS by Dec 2000. Sources are the archives of the PLANS web site taken from those dates.
2. PLANS lawsuit intimidation to school boards: PLANS mission statement, item # 3, "Litigate against schools violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment in the US." In Dan Dugan's account of an appearance in one school board meeting (reported on the PLANS website): "I yelled out PLANS was going to sue the District if they had a Waldorf program anywhere. Schenirer asked the policeman to remove me. I walked out before he got to me." From assorted news accounts, "The school was at the center of a broiling controversy, one filled with charges--made by an out-of-town anti-Waldorf group--that the Waldorf method was a cult-created system that used public funds to secretly indoctrinate children in esoteric New Age spiritual hocus-pocus. So inflamatory was the rhetoric, and so scary the threat of lawsuits, that the trustees of the CUSD were frightened off and turned thumbs down the application for sponsorship." Another, "Plus, said they'd sue. That was enough for trustees who voted to toss the Waldorf folks." Professor marginalia 18:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for Mediation Tag

I have no idea why Sune has replaced the Request for Mediation tag on this talk page. The mediation request failed. Why does this page need this tag at this point? I really don't care but I'm always suspicious of Sune's motives since they almost always tend to have some twisted logic behind them. Pete K 01:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Latest Edit - Schwartz

"In his speech he exemplified this with the way the origin and dramatic history of the Jews is taught in grade three in independent Waldorf schools and the way the morning verse in his view should be said as a prayer, in contrast to the morning verse said in public Waldorf methods schools, changed not to violate the U.S. Constitution on the separation between church and state." I'm inclined to put a {citation needed} tag on this new addition - in fact I will. I don't believe this is covered by the reference at the end of the paragraph. Can anyone produce the text of the reference? Pete K 23:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It's important to note here that you yourself have attempted to quote passages from this speech several times, text you drew (and further edited) from a bootlegged, amateurish transcript taken of it, as well as link the transcript here. As far as I know, there are no authorized transcripts published or available, and to spare the editors here another 16 rounds of ear-biting, kidney punching, and wheel spinning over what was supposedly really said in the speech, I think it would be wise for editors to focus on other reference sources altogether. Professor marginalia 15:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

IOW, we can remove this recently-added comment? Thanks! Pete K 16:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Pete K, remove the new fact tag already. The quotes are taken from the article that's already been footnoted once, okay? You don't need two footnotes in a row pointing to the same reference source in a single paragraph. I've described at least three times now in the talk page about the "the make everything sacramental" quote. This is getting ridiculous. Professor marginalia 22:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

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