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Kicking this legal threat upstairs

copied from the Pump:

In the article Tony Robbins, there is/was the following text:

"Controversial issues regarding Tony Robbins:

• In 2001 Robbins was divorced from his wife Becky. This disturbed some who had read his books (one of which is dedicated to her) and listened to his cassette programs, since both liberally dispense advice on how to have a happy marriage relationship. Robbins has, however, advocated that if one is truly unable to be happy in a marriage, one ought to improve it - possibly by leaving.

• Dreamlife.com, a company founded by Tony Robbins failed and went bankrupt. This obviously shocked some who depended on Robbins for business and investment advice."

I am not the author of this text; it is part of the earliest version given on the article's history page, dated May 29, 2003 with author Jpb1968; I do not know if that was its creation date, or if it goes back further still. The last sentence of the marriage topic was added more recently, again not by me.

This text was block-deleted by an anon on Sept. 22 and I reverted it back in. It was anon-block-deleted again this morning, Sept. 27, and I reverted it again. It was then immediately deleted again, this time by a new user, User:RRIESQ, who called it false and defamatory, and put this on my talk page:

"Mr. Gary D:

You are requested to contact the Law Office of Lavely & Singer PC (310-556-3051 x247) with regard to defamatory content on wikipedia that you repeatedly have restored, and therefore posted, after deletion by our office on behalf of our clients. If you do not respond, formal action shall be required. Thank you. Lavely & Singer P.C."

I suspect this may be part of the the new-found attention WP has gained from the AP article about it that was posted on Yahoo. I have verified that Lavely & Singer is really a law firm in Century City, a toney section of Los Angeles, with about seventeeen lawyers. I know WP is very sensitive about legal threats, so I'm kicking this upstairs for whatever you want to do with it. --Gary D 22:15, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

cc:Jimbo Wales' user page

Jimbo is aware of this. He's just been talking to the lawyer on the phone. Angela. 22:52, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

Fact checking

So while the damn lawyers talk about the things that damn lawyers talk about, can we do some fact checking here?

• Hard Facts:
  1. Did/does Robbins have a wife named Becky?
  2. Did Robbins divorce a wife in 2001?
  3. Does Robbins have a book dedicated to a wife/woman named Becky?
  4. Did Robbins found a company called Dreamlife.com?
  5. Did a company called Dreamlife.com enter bankrupcy?
• Relatively Simple Assertions:
  1. Do Robbins' books/cassette programs liberally dispense advice on how to have a happy marriage relationship?
  2. Has Robbins advocated that if one is truly unable to be happy in a marriage, one ought to improve it - possibly by leaving.
• Possibly Problematic Assertions:
  1. This disturbed some who had read his books....
  2. This obviously shocked some who depended on Robbins for business and investment advice.

Are there any other points I've missed?

func(talk) 04:12, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is based on an IRC report of a phone call, so all the details might not be 100% accurate here. According to the lawyer, dreamlife.com did not go bankrupt and Tony Robbins was associated with the company but was not president, an executive, or a director of it. He was divorced from Becky but his books relating to marriage guidance came after the divorce, not before. I think it might be best to put in just the facts unless there are any reliable sources for those opinions about what readers supposedly thought about this. I've moved Mikkalai's comment to his talk page. Angela. 06:39, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

He wasn't president, an executive, but lawyers-be-damned, he was on the board of directors. To quote the section of their last S-1 filing on January 15, 2004:

ANTHONY J. ROBBINS

Anthony J. Robbins, 43, founded our company in November 1999 and has served as a member of our Board of Directors since such time. Mr. Robbins has served as the Vice Chairman of our Board of Directors since August 2001, and had served as Chairman of our Board of Directors from November 1999 until such time. Mr. Robbins has served as Chairman of the Board of Robbins Research International, Inc., also known as the Anthony Robbins Companies, since 1983. Mr. Robbins is a best-selling author of five books. His audio program, “Personal Power” is the best-selling personal improvement program of all time with more than 35 million tapes distributed worldwide.

Maybe the lawyers are operating on some strange legal definition of "director" that doesn't include "member of Board of Directors". -- Cyrius|✎ 06:59, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I decided to tackle the "hard facts" section.

• Hard Facts:
  1. Did/does Robbins have a wife named Becky?

     Yes, he did. Robbins talks about his first marriage and its end briefly in a 2001 CNN interview.

  2. Did Robbins divorce a wife in 2001?

     The divorce appears to have taken place in 2000 .

  3. Does Robbins have a book dedicated to a wife/woman named Becky?

     Yes, sort of. Courtesy of Amazon.com's full text search. Unlimited Power: The New Science of Personal Achievement contains the dedication

     "Dedicated to the greatest power within you, your power to love, and to all those who help you share its magic

     Most of all for me, to Jairek, Joshua, Jolie, Tyler, Becky, and my Mom"

     It's a bit of a liberal interpretation of "dedicated to Becky", but not false. I haven't performed an exhaustive search, and Amazon does not have text search for all of Robbins's books, so there may be a more clear-cut dedication to her in another work.

  4. Did Robbins found a company called Dreamlife.com?

     Yes, although the exact name appears to be "dreamlife, inc."

     And from an SEC S-1 filing from earlier this year:

     "Anthony J. Robbins, 43, founded our company in November 1999 and has served as a member of our Board of Directors since such time." "Mr. Robbins is a best-selling author of five books. His audio program, “Personal Power” is the best-selling personal improvement program of all time with more than 35 million tapes distributed worldwide."

  5. Did a company called Dreamlife.com enter bankrupcy?

     Unknown. On April 19, 2004, "EOS International" (name changed from Dreamlife, Inc. in December 2001) issued a 15-12G "Certification and notice of termination of registration". I'm not skilled enough at sifting through SEC filings to determine if they had actually filed for bankruptcy, or what a 15-12G actually means (although it sounds reeeeally bad). They have made no filings since that I can find (but I don't know my way around).

-- Cyrius|✎ 06:37, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

More on 5: http://businessweek.com/1999/99_37/b3646116.htm, it appears that he did NOT go bankrupt, and did a manuver called "reverse merger" into this GHS inc. More reasearch is being done on what happened to GHS inc. -Vina 00:57, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

GHS turned into DLIF at the end end of 1999. As part of the reverse merger mentioned above, the "old" dreamlife filed the 15-12G. at the end of 1999, GHS filed an 8k (I think) that changed their symbol to DLIF and their name to dreamlife. But by the middle of 2001, they weren't doing so well. Tony then acquired Discovery Toys after DLIF started suffering from losses. (see http://www.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2001/07/30/story2.html). After the acquisition, the company name changed again to EOS International (symbol EOSI) in early Jan 2002 and is now a "holding company". As of 9/13/04, they declare their book value as ~$6million or so, with most of that valuation in stock (I assume, of Discovery Toys.) Since they bought Discovery for ~$30mil in stock, it's safe to say that the buy didn't work out. -Vina 01:31, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why all the fuss?

(Remarks restored and turned into civilized text) Is it really necessary to go to depths with the sole apparent goal to defame a person? Mikkalai 05:21, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

;-) But I'd like to see a neutral-POV article on the guy. func(talk) 05:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

NPOV does't mean dirt digging. What's encyclopedic in trying to prove that the guy allegedly didn't do what he advised for others or that his bancrupcy made other lose money? Mikkalai 15:09, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Are you suggested I was interested in dirt digging? The article had a criticism section, which is entirely appropriate when a person, group, or institution has received notable criticism, such as this individual has. I took the contested criticism part of the article, and I broke it out into a list, so that we could work towards NPOV. Defamation is not the sole apparent goal of any criticism section in any Misplaced Pages article. The existence of known and widespread criticism is factual, and is always covered in articles, such as for George W. Bush, John Kerry, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc. All of the fuss is over the attempts of an outside legal agency to subvert the Misplaced Pages editing processes. func(talk) 15:36, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Going forward?

Have we heard back from the lawyers? It appears most of the "facts" are true, to a degree, other than the fact that he went bankrupt. Filing a termination of a business is not the same thing as bankruptcy. Can we unprotect this and insert the ones that are true and provable? -Vina 00:41, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Angela would probably be the best person to ask, or Jimbo Wales himself. func(talk) 13:12, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

<Angela> jwales: did you hear anything more about the Tony Robbins case? It's still protected
<jwales> Angela, no...

So I unprotected it. Angela. 04:27, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

removed non-criticism from the criticism section.

If someone wants to reintegrate it somewhere else, fine. But this is hardly criticism:

Robbins is involved in a number of charitable works, including his "basket brigade" which helps feed the homeless and poverty-stricken. He also appeared as himself in the Farrelly brothers movie Shallow Hal.

Themindset 02:27, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

An anon user added some rebuttals in the criticism section. Please, if you are going to do this, at least create a response section. The criticism section is for criticism. Themindset 19:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Brain-washing?

I attended one of his seminars, and he employs some techniques used by cults. Telling the crowd the only way they'll be good business people/healthy is by listening to him - that they can't do it on their own. That sort of "you are nothing without me" talk is very common among cults. Also, the fact that he tells people to repeatedly come back to his seminars demonstrates that his seminars aren't what they purport to be, and indeed look more like a scam intended to get people to attend every seminar they can, thereby depriving needy people of their money in return for "guaranteed" happiness. Then there's the strobe-lighting, the incessant high-fives, the blaring early-1990s cheesy music, and endless "facts" without any sources cited, and the ridiculous "role-play" (where you have to pretend strangers are your best friends, running around and hugging them). For a person offering "scientifically-proven" information, his dislike of actually telling anyone who proved his assertions is disturbing beyond belief, especially as many people adopt his advice in many facets of their lives. This even extends to the use of "RPM" (Rapid Planning Method), which he extols as a perfect solution for company organisation, even though it's comprised entirely of Microsoft Word and Excel templates, or if you shell out a lot of money, some hastily-constructed, bug-ridden software complete with pictures of tropical islands and other such targets.

The reason I'm posting this, is that I've seen how many Tony Robbins followers actually live their lives, and it seems his teaching methods affect people in ways not generally accepted to be beneficial to the people. Couple that with the aforementioned lack of supporting evidence, and things suddenly start to look somewhat dubious, to say the least.

It is more accurate to say that cults use some of the same techniques as Tony robbins as do cocacola and all advertising systems. its how you use a technique thats important not the technique itself. you can do many useful things with these techniques and you can also do great harm. I have attended UPW three times and at no point does tony ever say that he is the force that directs personal change. there, as in all the CD and book material he always makes clear that change is an internal process and that he is only a guide providing techniques and strategies.Tony does not guarentee happiness he offers the oportunity to achieve happiness from internal resources. no one has to pretend that strangers are friends role play is not involved. if you hug someone its as real as any hug you have had in your life and all voluntary. the writer of this biased drivel has no clue about what actually goes on. no one forced me to spend money. I have chosen which things I do and dont do. no one is forced to go without breaks in the seminars no doors are locked. only during one session are people specifically requested not to leave but no-one is physically forced to remain only if a participant is physically or verbally abusive to another person will they be removed. food and water are freely available for purchase immediately outside the room at all times.rest rooms are also freely available at there are queues all day. not great but thats a criticism of the venue not Tony Robbins. Excel centre is new but still made no account of the needs of women when constructing the toilet facilities. yes he heavily promotes other seminars. and offers huge financial incentives to seminar participants. but he also makes clear that everyone can attend these seminars listen to half the programme and then get a full refund if not happy. All the techniques including the loud music, strobe lights and physical activity are explained in detail. no one is under any illusion about whats going on. every one is a volunteer to be there and hardly anyone chooses to leave. I have no issue with criticsm but these are lies.

It's not a lie. He *does* ask people to hug others, pretend to be their age-old friends, and other role-plays, etc. He *does* tell us why we're unhappy/unsuccessful, then turn around and tell us how to fix it. He doesn't back up his facts, he references studies that never even took place. I've been to UPW - I've seen it with my own eyes. I guess if you take his word for everything, then yes, it's not cult-like. If you look at it objectively, it sure as hell looks like one. The fact people aren't forced to pay for goods/services doesn't mean nothing untoward has taken place. People get defrauded alarmingly often. Surely if it works, you only have to go once :) Dave420 01:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Article title

Should this not be titled "Anthony Robbins" rather be "Tony Robbins" as he signs his books and per wikipedia common practice (i.e. full names)? --nirvana2013 12:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

To quote WP:Naming:

Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English if none of the rules below cover a specific problem.

7. In general, use the most commonly recognized English-language form of the name. Create redirections or disambiguations for other plausible links.

My impression is that Tony Robbins is the more commonly recognized form of the name. Themindset 17:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Get the Edge

anybody actually got this on dvd or video?

i wanna know what its about, that is how i know this fool, anthony:D

>x<ino 02:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

"New Age Vanguard"

I'm not sure how somebody simply being "in the vanguard of the New Age movement," necessarily constitutes a criticism, although if it does, to me that is a POV generalisation, as it applies a disparaging tone not just to Robbins himself but to a very large number of other individuals as well. Petrus4 08:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Republican

I am new and unsure how this fits as a Misplaced Pages policy, but it is poor journalistic practice. In the 2008 Presidential Considerations section, there is the sentance "Many say that if he ran, it would be for the Republican nomination.". Who says this? Is there a valid source available or is this speculation of the author?

Brainwashing - only Tony's way?

I have not attended any of Tony's seminars, so I can't comment on what happens there. I have listened to two of his tape programs. In those programs he stresses that we should think for ourselves, and make sure what he is saying makes sense. He does this a few times throughout the program.

He says that, yes, but that shouldn't be up to the listener - he's making the claims, he should cite sources. Like that ONE source he does cite - the study at Yale (where the 3% of people who wrote down their goals had more wealth than the other 97% after 20 years), which never took place. Dave420 01:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Robbins' use of "cult-like" techniques

I was an avid Robbins fan for close to a decade. I have Personal Power 2, Get the Edge, Time of your Life, RPM, Awaken the Giant Within, Unlimited Power and have attended an Unleash the Power Within 3 day seminar. This is what is says on my user page re Robbins and cults:

"Cults have always interested me for years simply based on their mystery/ability to draw unwavering devotion to ridiculous premises even from otherwise intelligent people, and I have always read books on unconscious influence, LGAT (large group awareness training) and "brain washing"; At the same time I would also read self improvement material. However, that changed and my interest in cults really peaked because I was a Tony Robbins advocate, and when attending an "unleash the power within" weekend seminar I saw to my horror it had some striking makings of a LGAT/"Landmark Forum/Werner Erhard" type event, with cultish rituals (15-18 hour days with almost no breaks for food, repetitive chants, unconscious influence techniques, charismatic leader, strict guidelines even to the point of totalitarianism).

From there I researched Robbins, Landmark Education and Church of Scientology extensively (although I do not believe Robbins is at all a destructive cult, I do believe he uses unconscious persuasion (or mind control), and cult like LGATs to sell more of his products). "

So yes I believe Robbins in some ways does lead a cult. - you may find this link interesting reading. It's on rickross.com - one of the world's foremost cult experts.

If you feel this info warrants being added to the mainpage I'd be happy to. Glen Stollery 01:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Even if it were all true, Tony is using these methods to suggest ways of how to be more successful and happy on what your own interpretation of success and happiness should be without having to give your total self (or anything at all if you don't choose to) back to the "cult". It is very different than a cult in that way. Without giving anything back to the organization itself, you can still be just as successful and happy as you want to be. He does suggest that you should at least contribute to a charitable organization. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.239.1.122 (talk • contribs) .

Whether or not his 'followers' believe it is helping them become more successful or not has ABSOLUTELY NO relevance on whether or not the organization or group falls under the definition of a cult or not. In fact the vast majority of cults are LGATs (which means the utilize Large Group Awareness Training) so if anything this only adds to the argument. If you ask a Scientologist or someone partipating in Landmark Educationif they believe it makes them more successful they will definitely tell you yes. Look up the definition of what a cult is before commenting please. Glen Stollery 13:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Addition of allegations of "cult like" techniques should be added?

Please read above and comment if addition is warranted. Please also follow the external link above to the rickross.com site. I would like your thoughts Glen Stollery 16:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Concern of similarities of Robbins' techniques to those employed by cults

Has been added with references to attendees observations noted at http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=236 as well as Margaret Singers citing New age self-improvement courses using cult techniques in her book "Cults in our Midst" Glen Stollery 00:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

For 202.7.166.164 could you discuss before deleting please Glen Stollery 04:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I moved the section referring to the New Age Movement and other authors (Wayne Dyer) etc. to the NPOV section. It's not inherently a criticism to be related to the New Age Movement or to other very popular authors even if someone somewhere has written a book suggesting the whole lot of them uses cult-like behavior. Personally, I think the New Age movement has a lot of whacky characters and a lot of good stuff but there's no way that being "New Age" proponent is inherently good or bad, just like there's no way that being a Christian, Muslim, Republican, Democrat, Capitalist, Socialist, etc. can infer criticism other than being an editorial comment that has no place in an Encyclopedia. Also, relationship with other people itself is not a valid criticism unless perhaps there is a general knowledge of those people. In other words, it's one thing to note that a person has close ties to Hitler or Stalin. Or to the Moonie organization or to Scientology. However, it's an incredibly weak argument to say it's a criticism to be associated with the likes of other authors and speakers like Wayne Dyer, Louise Hay, and Deepak Chopra. - Lou 7 March 2006

I removed this section entirely as it is not verifiable, it is simply a session in negative spinning with no substantiation or real documentation. Hardly appropriate for a NPOV article. --FreedominThought 02:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

No substantiation? There's over 240 posts discussing the subject here. The article states "critics note" and references a source where dozens of critics are discussing the subject... what further reference do you needs? Besides this is exactly appropriate for an NPOV article. I notice you added (uncited) references to Robbins' numerous "charitable works" (although your statement doesn't even make sense), so it is entirely NPOV to also show the flip side of the coin and reference criticism of Robbins. With your attempt to discredit Wade Cook in the article it reads like it's been written by Robbins' PR agent. Please discuss and wait for feedback before removing this material in the future. _{ĢĿ€Ñ §τοĿĿ€Ŗγč} 20:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous rants are not substantiation. First of all, these statements are tantamount to libel which is not allowed under Wiki policy. None of this is verfiable by any independent source, only your little anti-Robbins brigade. No discussion is needed for its removal and besides you don't own the article. 2nd, you are placing copyrighted material into the article which is also against Wiki policy. I have no problem with rational criticism, but your biased hyperbole is not that. --FreedominThought 04:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

There are dozens of articles on TR using LGAT techniques if you would like them referenced I will, though it will do little but make it seem more like a heavy attack (which it is not) rather than another section. I laughed when I read your "anti=Robbins" comment. You obviously know little about me so please keep your uninformed opinions to yourself. Finally, regarding your "copyright" comment, please read Fair use and again, do not comment on subjects in which you are uneducated. _{ĢĿ€Ñ §τοĿĿ€Ŗγč} 00:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Quotes section

Shouldn't this be on wikiquote rather than here? --Terminal157 18:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Possible copy vio material

I have removed two paragraphs of material which clearly originate here. Unless we have clear permission to use this material in a manner compatible with Misplaced Pages, it cannot be included.

It also has the problem of being inherently POV, given its source.

Fourohfour 11:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

More potential copyvios removed; example sentence search on Google shows non-Misplaced Pages sources. Fourohfour 11:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Tougher prison?

"Robbins says in his book, Awaken the Giant Within, that he supports tougher sentences for criminals."

I was surprised to read that sentence... because I just finished Awaken the Giant Within, and he doesn't say anything like that. This is what he says in the book:

"We must provide our prisoners with an environment in which they don't have to constantly worry about being beaten or attacked by cellmates, yet at the same time we cannot make prison the home they never had. I'm suggesting that prison terms should be undesirable - uncomfortable - and that during a prison term, people should be shown ways to make the outside world an experience that they can be in control of, one of pleasure and posibility..."

I think the claim in the article is very biased, and is twisting Tony's words.

Bleedstupid 06:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I must say that statement goes against his handling of the "Tookie" trial... it sounds as though you are certain in which case I would make the edits. Where else do you feel it is bias _{ĢĿ€Ñ §τοĿĿ€Ŗγč} 00:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Who is this guy?

This article is terrible. It reads like a freaking comercial. I want facts about where he grew up, how did he get all this wisdom, what are his credentials? Misplaced Pages is not a place for promoting a guy and his products. Plus I can't believe that no one has piked up yet that he lifted all his concepts straight out of the Carlos Castaneda books. Personal power? Come on give me a brake. Cleargreen should sue him for plagerism. Who the hell is this guy? I don't want a comercial. I want facts.

Since this is a Misplaced Pages, if you think an article is "terrible" and "reads like a freaking commercial", then you have the option of rewriting the article. Instead of posting ranting criticisms on the "Talk" page, you should contribute to the article by editing and rewriting it. Rray 15:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know enough about this guy, so I don't feel comfortable altering the article. That's why I came here to learn about him, but instead I was surprised how biased and one sided this article is. I'm used to reading Misplaced Pages every day and most articles are factual and to the point, but this one stood out severely. So I'm asking people who are more knowlegeble of this man, and who have more than a passig interest in him to be more factual in their profiling.

Books don't exist

Apparently Tony Robbins has some books listed at Amazon and elsewhere that have not yet been published:-

• "The Driving Force"
• "Inner Strength"

Even though they have not been published designs for the book covers seem to exist. I am going to qualify the footnote for the bookcover shown in the article. Terjepetersen 14:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Knowledge of Human Behavior

For all who question how legitimate Tony's methods are, it would be wise to first and foremost question ones own methods of communication.

It is in the subconcious nature of all human beings to use subtle, suggesting, hypnotic type language to influence the thoughts of another, to side with, and believe the one delivering the message, whatever it may be.

If a child wants candy the precious one will, by all the tact of emotional responce it can muster, persuade the parent or elder to give what the child is asking. Children do this, as a part of their subconcious nature, on a regular basis. But no more than their counterparts, the parents. As a matter of fact, it is an inherited behavior. Such is not only pre-existant, by more acurately developed and even honed as a skill, with each and every passing day spent with their parents and surroundings.

But what about the the adults? Don't they use even more sofisticated tactical skills of manipulation on their own children to get them to do what they wish. Do not parents and teachers alike, coerce children by a much more forceful means of communication, using fear and control tact. The pleasure/pain motivating factor is inherant in all human nature.

"Good" and "Bad" emotions stimulate every descision and action we do/don't make. Tony Robbins teaches a person to discover what those maximum pleasure motivations are, and how to use them as an unlimited energy force to achieve all goals. Don't we all want our children and youth to grow up as incredible achievers? Don't we want all of our nation to be happy, fulfilled, and at peace? Only then will violence and poverty be vanquished.

If it is ok for "the law" to motivate us to do right and protect us from wrong doing (which is of it's own interpretation by the way), though the controlling coercive means of punishment(NLP trick to associate fear of PAIN), then shouldn't it be ok for a person to motivate another to motivate us to choosed what we wish for our lives by revealing to us possible rewards? Epecially with no threat of punishment?

Our founding fathers used such tact and s;ubtle suggestions to stimulate our emotions to move us to live for individual freedom. The "Birthright" to choose that which makes us fulfilled , and promotes world peace.

Maybe a person should deeply, and honestly study any and all things, before ever speaking upon such issues. "Opinion" has never had great influence for good, unless backed by diligent science.

Thank you loving us enough to study us TONY. Only through such passionate understanding as your's, will our species progress and fulfill purpose.

• Not sure what your point is here, but I edited the spaces from the beginnings of your lines to keep the paragraphs from running off the sides of the window. Manys 05:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The NLP moron clearly has no point. Robbins is a cult leader who should be shut down, but America is one big barbecue for these lizards. --81.103.144.60 03:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

External links section

I cut it down from 6 to 2. We do not want links in there that are just links to promotional material for Tony. It violates the guidelines on external links. --Woohookitty 10:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Possible link to add

The methods in his seminars were discussed on Penn and Teller: Bullshit! They can be found on Google Video 12.226.178.27 01:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

^Link is broken? Shaybear♥

criticism section gone

From this talk page it looks like there was once a criticism section. Well even the title has gone! Could it be reinstated in some way? I.e. out of a previous version? It looks like a robbins fan has come along and deleted it wholesale. I don't know enough to do it myself but could someone remake it?Merkinsmum 17:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Checking the history, I see that the criticism section was renamed "Legal affairs" and some unsourced criticism was removed. . -Will Beback 18:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

balancing external site

I have added a link to a site critiquing robbins, for balance. Please do not remove, some balance is needed.Merkinsmum 15:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because an article is critical of Robbins doesn't make it notable or a good addition to the external links section. This particular site you added is only 2 pages long and doesn't have any authorship information or look like it has any authority - it's just a personal critique. I'm removing it for being non-notable, and if you can find a more notable or trustworthy page critiquing Tony Robbins' methods, I'd support its inclusion here. Rray 19:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I've found a better one. James Randi article do? At least until something else is found. Some link critical of Robbins IS necessary hereMerkinsmum 22:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think James Randi is a notable source, yes. Rray 06:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

There is now a criticism section, as there should be to balance the article. Its the best I can do for the moment. At present it's based on the work of the James Randi Educational Foundation, though there are other critics of Robbins. Nothing here is at all libellous. Please edit to improve if you are unhappy with it, rather than deleting wholesale.Merkinsmum 23:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I did some copyediting on this section you added. You might give it a second look to see if I've missed anything. This section could probably be expanded; I think an episode of Penn and Teller's show might have also criticized some of Robbins' methodology. Do you think this section is enough to warrant removal of the "other viewpoints" tag in the article? Rray 06:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's wait and see what sources there are for this Penn and Teller show, as well as other references besides just the one James Randi. Smeelgova 06:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC).

Heh. Guess I need to break out the boxed set and find the episode so we can cite it huh? Rray 01:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

We need another source alongside this, because people who are into New Age etc dismiss comments from Randi as he is critical of these therapies as a whole, not just any particular purveyor of themMerkinsmum 11:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The article from Randi is from 2002 so we should be able to find some articles or something that are more recent. There's stuff on forums but I don't think that can be used here. I don't know what copyediting is, have to look it up, but thanks, you've made it stronger. I was trying not to be libelous to Robbins, for reasons of wanting some criticism to stay up here, and not bring his legal mates in as happened earlier in this talk page.Merkinsmum 11:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyediting just means editing the actual written copy for things like grammar, style, etc. Usually that's used in the "Edit summary" when you've made a lot of those kinds of changes, and it wouldn't make much sense to record all of them in the summary.

Balancing this article

I believe many will agree with this comment. True, in 1996 approx. 315 entries in Webster's Dict. were misspelled, and Britanica and Misplaced Pages had the same rate of factual errors in a sampling reported by CBS News. That being said, if the objective is to write facts and do so with neutrality notwithstanding, I must admit I found the entire article to be a low-grade negative over-all, (9th grade readability-no offense, it's been edited numerous times by many), very disjointed, and predominately negative to an obvious degree (hence unbalanced), and added to that-without benefit of skilled writing and research to present fluid objectivity.

Not being a fan of Robbins, I trust my comments here will be taken as one of YOUR READERS, having used Misplaced Pages for years. This truely is one of the poorest articles I've seen on Misplaced Pages when read closely and completely; unbalanced in the negative, poorly written, and choppy. Perhaps it has been excessively edited causing said perceived disjoint, perhaps just poorly written. Therefore, and again I am not crit·i·cizing without providing resolve, the resolve could be argued to be a complete rewrite of the article from a professional, neutral standpoint, i.e., start over.

The predominant theme I get from just reading it is the concern of this comment: if you cannot support by heavy reference a large movement stating, i.e, Robbins' cult-like methods, etc., it is probably best not to open the can of worms until it can be suitably addressed. Stub those sections, without playing up superlatives in the positive. I believe I would also check Misplaced Pages's liability for slander suits, which I am sure is held harmless based on the nature of this project; however, that is what this article leads me to thinking. One wonders to keep a good reputation, shouldn't persons have to take some kind of test before they edit? The DMOZ Project directory editors have stricter criteria for selection.

To be specific in closing: There is a Section on Criticisms, but no Praises Documentation. There are many that provide supporting view of his methods, not just celebrities, and yet that section is glaring missing - none are mentioned. If you mention negatives, you should balance with authorities on both sides. It is entirely one-sided. Research is necessary! This is a major unbalance given that Misplaced Pages cryptically describes his personal life, narrow and very negative sounding without benefit of true writing ability - have several negatives in numerous sections, and I've yet to find a postive or truly neutral statement in the choppy collection.

I'm afraid I cannot offer any assistance of than this, I would feel compelled to rewrite every part; as it is I have another project I'm diligently drafting for Misplaced Pages.

Good Luck to all of you on this, KUDOS for your efforts. I've used Misplaced Pages for years, and would like it to remain a great archive of knowledge and information. DVH-24 October 2006

• You should consider rewriting the article, since you obviously care about the subject matter, the Misplaced Pages project, and the quality of the article. That's the great thing about the Misplaced Pages; you can fix what's wrong with it. Rray 01:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If you do not like it, don't moan, you can rewrite it:) The unbalanced header is there because before the criticism section was added back in it was basically a rave about him. There is no praises section as the entire article lists Robbins' many achievements. A praises section would be too much like advertising, but I suppose you could add a 'noteable fans of Robbins are ...' type of section.Merkinsmum 02:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Removed the criticism section. It was a blank copy from the mentioned website - and was first-hand opinion only. I have left the link to the critical website though, as it is relevant to the published opinions on Robbins.

I've restored it. In what way is it a "blank copy"? It does quote the source, but the other text appears to not be copied. -Will Beback 19:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi anonymous person:) There was nothing copied about it whatsoever apart from naming the source and summarising. I wonder why you want no criticism of Robbins here.Merkinsmum 21:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

While you're dealing in obtuse ad hominem, maybe there's more to the tale than classics, dressmaking, feline husbandry, curiously fashionable caffeine addictions, and cake. That's just super, thanks for asking. Wondering about fictitious ideas like me not wanting criticism of Robbins is both a shamefully incorrect approach to the nature of mindful reality and an abberation of the very moderation your message seems to presuppose. All the best with your edit, despite being initially confused by your presuppositions. I am convinced that this entry continues to offer a criticism of Robbins which, despite my personal preference, unfairly frames him as, at worst, a charlatain. Notable criticism is clearly helpful. My mind maintiains that the opinions offered on the 'critical' website this article references aren't noteworthy and, incidentally, unduly harsh. Why risk the veracity of your wikipedia reputation on speculation that you "wonder why I want no criticism of Robbins here?" Please offer our community more than a thinly-veiled personal shot.

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